Reading in county third grade classrooms is a three-alarm fire going unanswered

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:We're in DCPS and I don't understand how this is STILL happening in MCPS. We've been pleasantly surprised to see how well DCPS has course corrected regarding reading and our own experience has been phenomenal -- all evidence-based, focus on phonics, no Lucy Caulkins nonsense at all.

We're contemplating a move to MoCo for several reasons, including schools (in a bad HS triangle in DC) and this is giving me pause.

My second grader in MCPS has consistently been taught phonics in school since the beginning, definitely more than my current fourth grader received (I remember sight word books and “look at the pictures for clues” during the zoom school days). I don’t know where the current third graders fall. Was there a change to the MCPS curriculum with more phonics starting with the kids who are now second graders?

RGR was implemented at most schools in the 2022/2023 school year. I also have a second grader and it was a huge shift between kindergarten and 1st grade. In kindergarten they were bringing home lists of sight words to memorize and being taught cueing, which I could tell was not really working for DC. I was relieved when they actually started learning phonics in 1st grade.

So my understanding is that current 3rd graders would have gotten RGR only last year.

MCPS also has implemented Science of Reading across all ES, has Dibels for K-2, and has an RFP out for a new ES ELA curriculum. There is reading specialist in all ES.

The above said, I’m always amazed that parents don’t think they need to be heavily involved with teaching their kids to read.

There's a new RFP? They actually going to make a selection this time?

IMO parental involvement should be in a supporting role- e.g., trained instructors should introduce the phonics skills and parents help their kids practice at home. For too long terrible methods were being used in the classroom and really hard to try to get your kids to sound out the words when they are being taught at school to look at the picture and guess. Ask me how I know.

Parents should be in the drivers seat when teaching kids the Alphabet, basic numbers, and how to read. Just like they should be in the drivers seat in teaching basic life skills and manners. I’m tired of folks being like it’s really hard to do this or that because of school. Parenting is work. No one has ever said it should be easy.

Do I think that schools should have been using Phonics instruction all along, Yes. But the fact they weren’t in no way stopped me from doing what was needed for my children to read. If folks want to farm out the above responsibilities, fine that’s their prerogative. But IMO that in no way removes the accountability from parents.

This is hilarious. Schools have removed so much from ES to focus on math and reading. But now you're saying it's the parents responsibility to teach thir kids to read? Has this memo been passed on to parents who don't speak English as a first language?

I completely do not rely on ES to teach my child math or reading. They just don't have time anymore. All their efforts go to supporting a small group of students who struggle.

Exactly- only struggling students get a good education anymore. I do think this is a shock to parents who went to school decades ago. My own parents really didn’t have to do anything unless we asked them for help on a project.

Hmmm, my own parents were very involved in my education. But my mom SAH and had time to help us. Now kids are at aftercare or with a sitter until 5 or 6pm and of course they're tired and there is no time to put in the extra work. And on weekends they are overscheduled with sports and activities.

+1. My parents also were involved. Reviewed homework, quizzed me before spelling test, proofread book reports, etc. Neither of them was a SAHP. Guess it depends on what people want to prioritize.

I agree with the over scheduling of kids in sports and activities.

My parents did none of that and we also didn’t do “activities.” As a result my expectation was that our kid would take responsibility for his own work and….he did. It’s saner for all of us.

So because your parents didn’t do their job, you won’t either. Got it. Super idea of you to have children!

Not PP, I view it as one of my jobs as a parent to teach them independence and responsibility. Not helicopter over their homework to make sure they never get a wrong answer.

It's not helicopter parenting to encourage reading in the home and help facilitate that. I guess critical thinking is difficult for you.

I guess it is necessary to spell this out because this possibility doesn’t even seem to be on your radar.

My kid intrinsically likes reading and does it for an hour or so a day without anyone telling them to. I don’t have to “encourage” it; “encouraging it” would be a non sequitur.

We do supply books that the kid doesn’t have to buy with the sweat of their own brow. I guess that is “encouragement”—but I doubt it’s what you were picturing when you were chastising me for not “doing my job” as a parent.

These kids are all in different places and that is fine. I don’t expect the school to abandon teaching reading because my kid already knows how to do it. But for some reason you seem to feel strongly that everyone needs to do what you do. Why is that?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Schools are for social learning
Tutors and home is for academics

How come private schools can teach more effectively than public schools when it comes to K-3?

Will mcps please hire a consultant to propose changes to the curriculum that will allow public schools to challenge and equip students the way catholic schools do?

Note: catholic schools arguably have far less funding and less trained teachers, yet students quickly learn to read, spell, understand grammar, write in cursive, etc. Heck, they even learn a foreign language! Class sizes at area catholic schools skyrocketed during the pandemic, so they know how to handle big classes. And ICYMI: bipoc families are scrambling to get into area privates as the mass exodus from mcps continues.

Don’t say “Catholic schools can expel troublemakers!”

We are talking about K-3, not middle school or MS13 high school.

I went to Catholic school in the 70s/80s…before adhd and medicated kids were a thing. We had a smattering of kids who definitely had behavior issues. Nonetheless, everyone learned.

Heck, at this point I’d support uniforms, desks in rows, and classrooms grouped by ability. Worth a shot, no? Pilot an old school curriculum and see what happens. Be sure to incorporate grammar (we had spelling workbooks that incorporated vocabulary and grammar). I bet the kids will outpace their counterparts.

Privates aren't 35%+ ESM students with the addition of students with behavioral issues. They won't even admit kids with behavioral issues. These situations are not comparable.

Exactly this. Private schools get to pick and choose their kids and families. Anyone who doesn’t like their curriculum, rules, process, guess what there is the door. Even if the class size is the same, the total enrollment is significant less. A K-5 Private might only have 300 students whereas my local elementary has 640. A Private might have two teachers in a K-3 class (which I think should be the case) but a public school might have to use those teachers just to be sure every class has a teacher. A private Catholic can mandate that every family volunteer 20hrs per year. And let’s no forget cost. Catholic schools are heavily subsidized by their diocese which in turns is subsidized by the Catholic Church.

NP - It was the "education experts" who continue to push large schools, despite research showing that kids do better in smaller schools. It was the "experts" who started pushing parent volunteers out of classrooms. It was the "experts" who made classroom management so much more difficult by eliminating tracking, eliminating schools for kids with behavioral problems, etc. It was the "experts" who think restorative justice will deter violence and disrespect.

So tired of the false "compassion" that continues to lower and lower expectations for both kids and parents. If your child is a constant disruption to the learning of others, there need to be consequences.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:We're in DCPS and I don't understand how this is STILL happening in MCPS. We've been pleasantly surprised to see how well DCPS has course corrected regarding reading and our own experience has been phenomenal -- all evidence-based, focus on phonics, no Lucy Caulkins nonsense at all.

We're contemplating a move to MoCo for several reasons, including schools (in a bad HS triangle in DC) and this is giving me pause.

My second grader in MCPS has consistently been taught phonics in school since the beginning, definitely more than my current fourth grader received (I remember sight word books and “look at the pictures for clues” during the zoom school days). I don’t know where the current third graders fall. Was there a change to the MCPS curriculum with more phonics starting with the kids who are now second graders?

RGR was implemented at most schools in the 2022/2023 school year. I also have a second grader and it was a huge shift between kindergarten and 1st grade. In kindergarten they were bringing home lists of sight words to memorize and being taught cueing, which I could tell was not really working for DC. I was relieved when they actually started learning phonics in 1st grade.

So my understanding is that current 3rd graders would have gotten RGR only last year.

MCPS also has implemented Science of Reading across all ES, has Dibels for K-2, and has an RFP out for a new ES ELA curriculum. There is reading specialist in all ES.

The above said, I’m always amazed that parents don’t think they need to be heavily involved with teaching their kids to read.

There's a new RFP? They actually going to make a selection this time?

IMO parental involvement should be in a supporting role- e.g., trained instructors should introduce the phonics skills and parents help their kids practice at home. For too long terrible methods were being used in the classroom and really hard to try to get your kids to sound out the words when they are being taught at school to look at the picture and guess. Ask me how I know.

Parents should be in the drivers seat when teaching kids the Alphabet, basic numbers, and how to read. Just like they should be in the drivers seat in teaching basic life skills and manners. I’m tired of folks being like it’s really hard to do this or that because of school. Parenting is work. No one has ever said it should be easy.

Do I think that schools should have been using Phonics instruction all along, Yes. But the fact they weren’t in no way stopped me from doing what was needed for my children to read. If folks want to farm out the above responsibilities, fine that’s their prerogative. But IMO that in no way removes the accountability from parents.

This is hilarious. Schools have removed so much from ES to focus on math and reading. But now you're saying it's the parents responsibility to teach thir kids to read? Has this memo been passed on to parents who don't speak English as a first language?

I completely do not rely on ES to teach my child math or reading. They just don't have time anymore. All their efforts go to supporting a small group of students who struggle.

Exactly- only struggling students get a good education anymore. I do think this is a shock to parents who went to school decades ago. My own parents really didn’t have to do anything unless we asked them for help on a project.

Hmmm, my own parents were very involved in my education. But my mom SAH and had time to help us. Now kids are at aftercare or with a sitter until 5 or 6pm and of course they're tired and there is no time to put in the extra work. And on weekends they are overscheduled with sports and activities.

+1. My parents also were involved. Reviewed homework, quizzed me before spelling test, proofread book reports, etc. Neither of them was a SAHP. Guess it depends on what people want to prioritize.

I agree with the over scheduling of kids in sports and activities.

DP- my parents definitely helped me with this sort of stuff too. But I do think the things listed here like quizzing for spelling tests are a bit different than teaching a kid to read.

Unless your kid has a learning disability, which 85% of kids do not, it’s not that hard to teach a kid to read. Particularly now. Watch some Sesame Street, download an app, practice the phonics along with reading every night.

Good god, no more apps. They get enough of that in school.

I do wish the PSA about having to teach your kids at home had been more loudly stated when my kiddo was in kindergarten. I learned to read in school as did my siblings. My parents read to us and had us read to them but did not have to teach us. I had no idea how much the approaches had changed. I bought the schtick for a while that my kid was fine and would pick it up by following balanced literacy. They didn't.

I agree. They should tell parents that they need to be teaching the kids. I followed a phonics program with my kids and they easily got it. They had trouble understanding the school methods even when they knew how to read.

Because the school methods are asinine.

No need to correct spelling. They’ll eventually absorb it elsewhere through our fabulously expensive silver bullet reading curriculum. Never mind the fact that the content is boring and skews too technical (teach for the test!).

Literature. Good stories. Make it fun and interesting.

Admit that Benchmark was a big failure. Move on quickly and invest in catching up.

It’s shameful for mcps to churn out subpar students. Shameful.

As a parent I’m tired of this line. School is about learning how to learn and attaining certain skills. If they can make it fun, great, but that’s not the primary goal or objective. At school let’s get down to the business of education. If that means it’s technical, fine. It would probably take a lot less time and energy from teachers if they could just focus on what is needed and not all the fluff.

Um…have you seen Benchmark? The stories were not engaging. The corresponding activities/questions were even worse.

We obviously want our kids to be challenged. I am arguing for better tools and more rigorous instruction. Better tools would be more interesting and engaging.

Anyway, I was right about benchmark not being the silver bullet they hoped for.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We're in DCPS and I don't understand how this is STILL happening in MCPS. We've been pleasantly surprised to see how well DCPS has course corrected regarding reading and our own experience has been phenomenal -- all evidence-based, focus on phonics, no Lucy Caulkins nonsense at all.

We're contemplating a move to MoCo for several reasons, including schools (in a bad HS triangle in DC) and this is giving me pause.

My second grader in MCPS has consistently been taught phonics in school since the beginning, definitely more than my current fourth grader received (I remember sight word books and “look at the pictures for clues” during the zoom school days). I don’t know where the current third graders fall. Was there a change to the MCPS curriculum with more phonics starting with the kids who are now second graders?

RGR was implemented at most schools in the 2022/2023 school year. I also have a second grader and it was a huge shift between kindergarten and 1st grade. In kindergarten they were bringing home lists of sight words to memorize and being taught cueing, which I could tell was not really working for DC. I was relieved when they actually started learning phonics in 1st grade.

So my understanding is that current 3rd graders would have gotten RGR only last year.

MCPS also has implemented Science of Reading across all ES, has Dibels for K-2, and has an RFP out for a new ES ELA curriculum. There is reading specialist in all ES.

The above said, I’m always amazed that parents don’t think they need to be heavily involved with teaching their kids to read.

There's a new RFP? They actually going to make a selection this time?

IMO parental involvement should be in a supporting role- e.g., trained instructors should introduce the phonics skills and parents help their kids practice at home. For too long terrible methods were being used in the classroom and really hard to try to get your kids to sound out the words when they are being taught at school to look at the picture and guess. Ask me how I know.

Parents should be in the drivers seat when teaching kids the Alphabet, basic numbers, and how to read. Just like they should be in the drivers seat in teaching basic life skills and manners. I’m tired of folks being like it’s really hard to do this or that because of school. Parenting is work. No one has ever said it should be easy.

Do I think that schools should have been using Phonics instruction all along, Yes. But the fact they weren’t in no way stopped me from doing what was needed for my children to read. If folks want to farm out the above responsibilities, fine that’s their prerogative. But IMO that in no way removes the accountability from parents.

I get that it IS this way but feel that public education is dropping the ball here.

Agreed. Under the current model, the disparity will only continue to grow-families with time and resources to supplement heavily at home will and those that don’t, won’t. And yes, of course parents should support their kids at home as best they can, but it just seems the expectations of what they need to do has grown. Not to mention it’s already a long school day for young kids. My kid is DONE after a half hour of homework in the evening.

I agree with you about supplementation, but my experience is that MCPS has actually done this one thing right by reintroducing phonics education. Yes, they got it wrong, but so did basically the entire primary education establishment.

This year's third graders absolutely got the sharp end of the stick. Before the curriculum revamp, kindergarten online, the weird post-covid year for first grade. They need targeted intervention for sure, but I'm not sure that the situation is quite so dire in other grades.

Oh my gosh this. My third grader did not learn one single thing in virtual kindergarten. Not the teacher’s fault it’s just not something that ever should have happened. My daughter was already reading and doing more advanced math and she will be ok. But some of those kids really really needed kindergarten. Plus being out for 10 days at a time over and over during first grade. My daughter’s teacher has said as much - these kids are really struggling. I can’t believe the notes and things that were coming home from her friends even last year that were basically unintelligible.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Schools are for social learning
Tutors and home is for academics

How come private schools can teach more effectively than public schools when it comes to K-3?

Will mcps please hire a consultant to propose changes to the curriculum that will allow public schools to challenge and equip students the way catholic schools do?

Note: catholic schools arguably have far less funding and less trained teachers, yet students quickly learn to read, spell, understand grammar, write in cursive, etc. Heck, they even learn a foreign language! Class sizes at area catholic schools skyrocketed during the pandemic, so they know how to handle big classes. And ICYMI: bipoc families are scrambling to get into area privates as the mass exodus from mcps continues.

Don’t say “Catholic schools can expel troublemakers!”

We are talking about K-3, not middle school or MS13 high school.

I went to Catholic school in the 70s/80s…before adhd and medicated kids were a thing. We had a smattering of kids who definitely had behavior issues. Nonetheless, everyone learned.

Heck, at this point I’d support uniforms, desks in rows, and classrooms grouped by ability. Worth a shot, no? Pilot an old school curriculum and see what happens. Be sure to incorporate grammar (we had spelling workbooks that incorporated vocabulary and grammar). I bet the kids will outpace their counterparts.

Privates aren't 35%+ ESM students with the addition of students with behavioral issues. They won't even admit kids with behavioral issues. These situations are not comparable.

So you are saying the ESM students are negatively impacting everyone else?

Then shouldn’t those kids be in a different class?

We have these things called laws, written by politicians, assuming idyllic conditions. Not to mention research. These things find and suggest that EML students do best and acquire language faster when immersed in regular classrooms with the language. These things also indicate that special education students should be in the least restrictive classroom and are entitled to a full range of services in order to allow for access the curriculum and class.

Now, most teachers nor people have any problem with the above ideals, however each does require extra time, funds, and training, to make work properly.

You quoted a bit related to ESM…not ESL.

Different kids, different issues…right?

ICYMI: catholic schools in the inner city (think: Baltimore, South Side of Chicago, Compton, etc.) are largely catering to…wait for it…Latinos!!! They can somehow navigate the whole bilingual thing fairly well.)

But we are talking about ESM…different issues.

Maybe mcps needs to find a better solution *if* those kids are the reason why so many 3rd graders can’t read.

I’m not convinced a few kids with extreme emotional issues and behavioral outbursts are the reason why so many third graders can’t read. Another poster suggested it as the reason why even poorly resourced Catholic schools churn out better educated kids than mcps…arguably one of the best resourced districts on the planet.

DP.. Those inner city catholic schools can still pick and choose whom they decide to educate. The parents who put their kids in those schools obviously care about their kids' education. That's where it starts. The parents. Parents do not have to know how to read themselves, but if they care about their kid's education, they will make sure that the kids have the support at home needed to do well in school.

My parents do not speak any English. So, they did not help with HW at all. But, they wanted me to do well in school, and as I got older, I saw education as a way out poverty.

I have always been of the opinion that parents and teachers are partners in educating the children. Like I said, the parent doesn't need to be teaching the kids at home, but they do need to provide support. And in MCPS, there are so many programs for ELL students. It's a matter of priorities and having the time.

Having stated that, we read to our kids every night when they were very little. We made reading a priority. Lots of trips to the library, and used bookstores. Both my kids were reading before Ker, and yea, we used phonics. Stupid to not use a combination of phonics and context clues.

We didn't push them; it just happened because they were surrounded by books. We limited screen time when they were very little. I think that helped.

My DS#1 is now 18 and said that limiting screen time before the age of 8 is crucial for getting kids to learn to love reading. He said he was thankful that we did that, but we were more lax with DC#2, which I regret, but it's harder to limit the younger when the older one is watching tv.

Catholic elementary schools are not as selective as you think. They take kids from the parish.

Schools have shifted to serve the low-income minorities in their parish boundaries (and then some). Just like mcps, it’s a mix of parents who are invested in their child’s education and those who are checked out (or struggling as a single mom or grandmother raising kids while working multiple jobs).

Enough with the excuses!

Why not admit that mcps isn’t doing the best it can and lessons can be learned from schools that are outpacing us. The curriculum matters. The resources matter. For whatever reason, mcps has done a really, really bad job over the last decade or so when it comes to such things.

Perhaps we need a ceo with business acumen and commonsense to make some changes? Go find a guy who was educated by jesuits. I bet you he will make a positive impact.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We're in DCPS and I don't understand how this is STILL happening in MCPS. We've been pleasantly surprised to see how well DCPS has course corrected regarding reading and our own experience has been phenomenal -- all evidence-based, focus on phonics, no Lucy Caulkins nonsense at all.

We're contemplating a move to MoCo for several reasons, including schools (in a bad HS triangle in DC) and this is giving me pause.

My second grader in MCPS has consistently been taught phonics in school since the beginning, definitely more than my current fourth grader received (I remember sight word books and “look at the pictures for clues” during the zoom school days). I don’t know where the current third graders fall. Was there a change to the MCPS curriculum with more phonics starting with the kids who are now second graders?

RGR was implemented at most schools in the 2022/2023 school year. I also have a second grader and it was a huge shift between kindergarten and 1st grade. In kindergarten they were bringing home lists of sight words to memorize and being taught cueing, which I could tell was not really working for DC. I was relieved when they actually started learning phonics in 1st grade.

So my understanding is that current 3rd graders would have gotten RGR only last year.

MCPS also has implemented Science of Reading across all ES, has Dibels for K-2, and has an RFP out for a new ES ELA curriculum. There is reading specialist in all ES.

The above said, I’m always amazed that parents don’t think they need to be heavily involved with teaching their kids to read.

There's a new RFP? They actually going to make a selection this time?

IMO parental involvement should be in a supporting role- e.g., trained instructors should introduce the phonics skills and parents help their kids practice at home. For too long terrible methods were being used in the classroom and really hard to try to get your kids to sound out the words when they are being taught at school to look at the picture and guess. Ask me how I know.

Parents should be in the drivers seat when teaching kids the Alphabet, basic numbers, and how to read. Just like they should be in the drivers seat in teaching basic life skills and manners. I’m tired of folks being like it’s really hard to do this or that because of school. Parenting is work. No one has ever said it should be easy.

Do I think that schools should have been using Phonics instruction all along, Yes. But the fact they weren’t in no way stopped me from doing what was needed for my children to read. If folks want to farm out the above responsibilities, fine that’s their prerogative. But IMO that in no way removes the accountability from parents.

This is hilarious. Schools have removed so much from ES to focus on math and reading. But now you're saying it's the parents responsibility to teach thir kids to read? Has this memo been passed on to parents who don't speak English as a first language?

I completely do not rely on ES to teach my child math or reading. They just don't have time anymore. All their efforts go to supporting a small group of students who struggle.

Exactly- only struggling students get a good education anymore. I do think this is a shock to parents who went to school decades ago. My own parents really didn’t have to do anything unless we asked them for help on a project.

Hmmm, my own parents were very involved in my education. But my mom SAH and had time to help us. Now kids are at aftercare or with a sitter until 5 or 6pm and of course they're tired and there is no time to put in the extra work. And on weekends they are overscheduled with sports and activities.

+1. My parents also were involved. Reviewed homework, quizzed me before spelling test, proofread book reports, etc. Neither of them was a SAHP. Guess it depends on what people want to prioritize.

I agree with the over scheduling of kids in sports and activities.

DP- my parents definitely helped me with this sort of stuff too. But I do think the things listed here like quizzing for spelling tests are a bit different than teaching a kid to read.

Unless your kid has a learning disability, which 85% of kids do not, it’s not that hard to teach a kid to read. Particularly now. Watch some Sesame Street, download an app, practice the phonics along with reading every night.

Good god, no more apps. They get enough of that in school.

I do wish the PSA about having to teach your kids at home had been more loudly stated when my kiddo was in kindergarten. I learned to read in school as did my siblings. My parents read to us and had us read to them but did not have to teach us. I had no idea how much the approaches had changed. I bought the schtick for a while that my kid was fine and would pick it up by following balanced literacy. They didn't.

I agree. They should tell parents that they need to be teaching the kids. I followed a phonics program with my kids and they easily got it. They had trouble understanding the school methods even when they knew how to read.

Because the school methods are asinine.

No need to correct spelling. They’ll eventually absorb it elsewhere through our fabulously expensive silver bullet reading curriculum. Never mind the fact that the content is boring and skews too technical (teach for the test!).

Literature. Good stories. Make it fun and interesting.

Admit that Benchmark was a big failure. Move on quickly and invest in catching up.

It’s shameful for mcps to churn out subpar students. Shameful.

As a parent I’m tired of this line. School is about learning how to learn and attaining certain skills. If they can make it fun, great, but that’s not the primary goal or objective. At school let’s get down to the business of education. If that means it’s technical, fine. It would probably take a lot less time and energy from teachers if they could just focus on what is needed and not all the fluff.

Um…have you seen Benchmark? The stories were not engaging. The corresponding activities/questions were even worse.

We obviously want our kids to be challenged. I am arguing for better tools and more rigorous instruction. Better tools would be more interesting and engaging.

Anyway, I was right about benchmark not being the silver bullet they hoped for.

Of course Benchmark wasn’t a silver bullet- anyone who thought it would be was highly deluded. At the time many were perplexed at the decision to select it.

Decodable books went out of favor for a while because they were “boring.” What a joke.

[Anonymous]

We went through "Teach Your Child to Read in 100 Easy Lessons" before our girls started kindergarten. It was one of the best education decisions we made for them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We're in DCPS and I don't understand how this is STILL happening in MCPS. We've been pleasantly surprised to see how well DCPS has course corrected regarding reading and our own experience has been phenomenal -- all evidence-based, focus on phonics, no Lucy Caulkins nonsense at all.

We're contemplating a move to MoCo for several reasons, including schools (in a bad HS triangle in DC) and this is giving me pause.

My second grader in MCPS has consistently been taught phonics in school since the beginning, definitely more than my current fourth grader received (I remember sight word books and “look at the pictures for clues” during the zoom school days). I don’t know where the current third graders fall. Was there a change to the MCPS curriculum with more phonics starting with the kids who are now second graders?

RGR was implemented at most schools in the 2022/2023 school year. I also have a second grader and it was a huge shift between kindergarten and 1st grade. In kindergarten they were bringing home lists of sight words to memorize and being taught cueing, which I could tell was not really working for DC. I was relieved when they actually started learning phonics in 1st grade.

So my understanding is that current 3rd graders would have gotten RGR only last year.

MCPS also has implemented Science of Reading across all ES, has Dibels for K-2, and has an RFP out for a new ES ELA curriculum. There is reading specialist in all ES.

The above said, I’m always amazed that parents don’t think they need to be heavily involved with teaching their kids to read.

There's a new RFP? They actually going to make a selection this time?

IMO parental involvement should be in a supporting role- e.g., trained instructors should introduce the phonics skills and parents help their kids practice at home. For too long terrible methods were being used in the classroom and really hard to try to get your kids to sound out the words when they are being taught at school to look at the picture and guess. Ask me how I know.

Parents should be in the drivers seat when teaching kids the Alphabet, basic numbers, and how to read. Just like they should be in the drivers seat in teaching basic life skills and manners. I’m tired of folks being like it’s really hard to do this or that because of school. Parenting is work. No one has ever said it should be easy.

Do I think that schools should have been using Phonics instruction all along, Yes. But the fact they weren’t in no way stopped me from doing what was needed for my children to read. If folks want to farm out the above responsibilities, fine that’s their prerogative. But IMO that in no way removes the accountability from parents.

This is hilarious. Schools have removed so much from ES to focus on math and reading. But now you're saying it's the parents responsibility to teach thir kids to read? Has this memo been passed on to parents who don't speak English as a first language?

I completely do not rely on ES to teach my child math or reading. They just don't have time anymore. All their efforts go to supporting a small group of students who struggle.

Exactly- only struggling students get a good education anymore. I do think this is a shock to parents who went to school decades ago. My own parents really didn’t have to do anything unless we asked them for help on a project.

Hmmm, my own parents were very involved in my education. But my mom SAH and had time to help us. Now kids are at aftercare or with a sitter until 5 or 6pm and of course they're tired and there is no time to put in the extra work. And on weekends they are overscheduled with sports and activities.

+1. My parents also were involved. Reviewed homework, quizzed me before spelling test, proofread book reports, etc. Neither of them was a SAHP. Guess it depends on what people want to prioritize.

I agree with the over scheduling of kids in sports and activities.

DP- my parents definitely helped me with this sort of stuff too. But I do think the things listed here like quizzing for spelling tests are a bit different than teaching a kid to read.

Unless your kid has a learning disability, which 85% of kids do not, it’s not that hard to teach a kid to read. Particularly now. Watch some Sesame Street, download an app, practice the phonics along with reading every night.

Good god, no more apps. They get enough of that in school.

I do wish the PSA about having to teach your kids at home had been more loudly stated when my kiddo was in kindergarten. I learned to read in school as did my siblings. My parents read to us and had us read to them but did not have to teach us. I had no idea how much the approaches had changed. I bought the schtick for a while that my kid was fine and would pick it up by following balanced literacy. They didn't.

I agree. They should tell parents that they need to be teaching the kids. I followed a phonics program with my kids and they easily got it. They had trouble understanding the school methods even when they knew how to read.

Because the school methods are asinine.

No need to correct spelling. They’ll eventually absorb it elsewhere through our fabulously expensive silver bullet reading curriculum. Never mind the fact that the content is boring and skews too technical (teach for the test!).

Literature. Good stories. Make it fun and interesting.

Admit that Benchmark was a big failure. Move on quickly and invest in catching up.

It’s shameful for mcps to churn out subpar students. Shameful.

As a parent I’m tired of this line. School is about learning how to learn and attaining certain skills. If they can make it fun, great, but that’s not the primary goal or objective. At school let’s get down to the business of education. If that means it’s technical, fine. It would probably take a lot less time and energy from teachers if they could just focus on what is needed and not all the fluff.

Um…have you seen Benchmark? The stories were not engaging. The corresponding activities/questions were even worse.

We obviously want our kids to be challenged. I am arguing for better tools and more rigorous instruction. Better tools would be more interesting and engaging.

Anyway, I was right about benchmark not being the silver bullet they hoped for.

Of course Benchmark wasn’t a silver bullet- anyone who thought it would be was highly deluded. At the time many were perplexed at the decision to select it.

Decodable books went out of favor for a while because they were “boring.” What a joke.

This is exactly what I’m talking about. Who cares that decodabke books are “boring.” Them being engaging is not the point. If kids need engaging stories have someone read to them or better yet, teach them to read and then they can read engaging stories themself.

This “ it need to be engaging” or let’s work on love of learning” is a crock. Learning to read takes time and effort, it’s work. Love of learning happens because of curious kids exposed to different places, people, things. Imagine all the things they can be exposed to when they can read and do basic math.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:We're in DCPS and I don't understand how this is STILL happening in MCPS. We've been pleasantly surprised to see how well DCPS has course corrected regarding reading and our own experience has been phenomenal -- all evidence-based, focus on phonics, no Lucy Caulkins nonsense at all.

We're contemplating a move to MoCo for several reasons, including schools (in a bad HS triangle in DC) and this is giving me pause.

My second grader in MCPS has consistently been taught phonics in school since the beginning, definitely more than my current fourth grader received (I remember sight word books and “look at the pictures for clues” during the zoom school days). I don’t know where the current third graders fall. Was there a change to the MCPS curriculum with more phonics starting with the kids who are now second graders?

RGR was implemented at most schools in the 2022/2023 school year. I also have a second grader and it was a huge shift between kindergarten and 1st grade. In kindergarten they were bringing home lists of sight words to memorize and being taught cueing, which I could tell was not really working for DC. I was relieved when they actually started learning phonics in 1st grade.

So my understanding is that current 3rd graders would have gotten RGR only last year.

MCPS also has implemented Science of Reading across all ES, has Dibels for K-2, and has an RFP out for a new ES ELA curriculum. There is reading specialist in all ES.

The above said, I’m always amazed that parents don’t think they need to be heavily involved with teaching their kids to read.

There's a new RFP? They actually going to make a selection this time?

IMO parental involvement should be in a supporting role- e.g., trained instructors should introduce the phonics skills and parents help their kids practice at home. For too long terrible methods were being used in the classroom and really hard to try to get your kids to sound out the words when they are being taught at school to look at the picture and guess. Ask me how I know.

Parents should be in the drivers seat when teaching kids the Alphabet, basic numbers, and how to read. Just like they should be in the drivers seat in teaching basic life skills and manners. I’m tired of folks being like it’s really hard to do this or that because of school. Parenting is work. No one has ever said it should be easy.

Do I think that schools should have been using Phonics instruction all along, Yes. But the fact they weren’t in no way stopped me from doing what was needed for my children to read. If folks want to farm out the above responsibilities, fine that’s their prerogative. But IMO that in no way removes the accountability from parents.

This is hilarious. Schools have removed so much from ES to focus on math and reading. But now you're saying it's the parents responsibility to teach thir kids to read? Has this memo been passed on to parents who don't speak English as a first language?

I completely do not rely on ES to teach my child math or reading. They just don't have time anymore. All their efforts go to supporting a small group of students who struggle.

Exactly- only struggling students get a good education anymore. I do think this is a shock to parents who went to school decades ago. My own parents really didn’t have to do anything unless we asked them for help on a project.

Hmmm, my own parents were very involved in my education. But my mom SAH and had time to help us. Now kids are at aftercare or with a sitter until 5 or 6pm and of course they're tired and there is no time to put in the extra work. And on weekends they are overscheduled with sports and activities.

+1. My parents also were involved. Reviewed homework, quizzed me before spelling test, proofread book reports, etc. Neither of them was a SAHP. Guess it depends on what people want to prioritize.

I agree with the over scheduling of kids in sports and activities.

DP- my parents definitely helped me with this sort of stuff too. But I do think the things listed here like quizzing for spelling tests are a bit different than teaching a kid to read.

Unless your kid has a learning disability, which 85% of kids do not, it’s not that hard to teach a kid to read. Particularly now. Watch some Sesame Street, download an app, practice the phonics along with reading every night.

Good god, no more apps. They get enough of that in school.

I do wish the PSA about having to teach your kids at home had been more loudly stated when my kiddo was in kindergarten. I learned to read in school as did my siblings. My parents read to us and had us read to them but did not have to teach us. I had no idea how much the approaches had changed. I bought the schtick for a while that my kid was fine and would pick it up by following balanced literacy. They didn't.

I agree. They should tell parents that they need to be teaching the kids. I followed a phonics program with my kids and they easily got it. They had trouble understanding the school methods even when they knew how to read.

Because the school methods are asinine.

No need to correct spelling. They’ll eventually absorb it elsewhere through our fabulously expensive silver bullet reading curriculum. Never mind the fact that the content is boring and skews too technical (teach for the test!).

Literature. Good stories. Make it fun and interesting.

Admit that Benchmark was a big failure. Move on quickly and invest in catching up.

It’s shameful for mcps to churn out subpar students. Shameful.

As a parent I’m tired of this line. School is about learning how to learn and attaining certain skills. If they can make it fun, great, but that’s not the primary goal or objective. At school let’s get down to the business of education. If that means it’s technical, fine. It would probably take a lot less time and energy from teachers if they could just focus on what is needed and not all the fluff.

Um…have you seen Benchmark? The stories were not engaging. The corresponding activities/questions were even worse.

We obviously want our kids to be challenged. I am arguing for better tools and more rigorous instruction. Better tools would be more interesting and engaging.

Anyway, I was right about benchmark not being the silver bullet they hoped for.

As far as I’m concerned, most of these curriculum should not be used. The district needs something like All About Reading and an extra person (para or Assistant Teacher) in all K and 1st grade classes. In second grade they need to start spelling.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We went through "Teach Your Child to Read in 100 Easy Lessons" before our girls started kindergarten. It was one of the best education decisions we made for them.

I know that a lot of people have had a good experience with that book, but I found it difficult to use and couldn’t stick with it. I had much better luck with story books that focused on phonics.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:We're in DCPS and I don't understand how this is STILL happening in MCPS. We've been pleasantly surprised to see how well DCPS has course corrected regarding reading and our own experience has been phenomenal -- all evidence-based, focus on phonics, no Lucy Caulkins nonsense at all.

We're contemplating a move to MoCo for several reasons, including schools (in a bad HS triangle in DC) and this is giving me pause.

My second grader in MCPS has consistently been taught phonics in school since the beginning, definitely more than my current fourth grader received (I remember sight word books and “look at the pictures for clues” during the zoom school days). I don’t know where the current third graders fall. Was there a change to the MCPS curriculum with more phonics starting with the kids who are now second graders?

RGR was implemented at most schools in the 2022/2023 school year. I also have a second grader and it was a huge shift between kindergarten and 1st grade. In kindergarten they were bringing home lists of sight words to memorize and being taught cueing, which I could tell was not really working for DC. I was relieved when they actually started learning phonics in 1st grade.

So my understanding is that current 3rd graders would have gotten RGR only last year.

MCPS also has implemented Science of Reading across all ES, has Dibels for K-2, and has an RFP out for a new ES ELA curriculum. There is reading specialist in all ES.

The above said, I’m always amazed that parents don’t think they need to be heavily involved with teaching their kids to read.

There's a new RFP? They actually going to make a selection this time?

IMO parental involvement should be in a supporting role- e.g., trained instructors should introduce the phonics skills and parents help their kids practice at home. For too long terrible methods were being used in the classroom and really hard to try to get your kids to sound out the words when they are being taught at school to look at the picture and guess. Ask me how I know.

Parents should be in the drivers seat when teaching kids the Alphabet, basic numbers, and how to read. Just like they should be in the drivers seat in teaching basic life skills and manners. I’m tired of folks being like it’s really hard to do this or that because of school. Parenting is work. No one has ever said it should be easy.

Do I think that schools should have been using Phonics instruction all along, Yes. But the fact they weren’t in no way stopped me from doing what was needed for my children to read. If folks want to farm out the above responsibilities, fine that’s their prerogative. But IMO that in no way removes the accountability from parents.

I get that it IS this way but feel that public education is dropping the ball here.

Agreed. Under the current model, the disparity will only continue to grow-families with time and resources to supplement heavily at home will and those that don’t, won’t. And yes, of course parents should support their kids at home as best they can, but it just seems the expectations of what they need to do has grown. Not to mention it’s already a long school day for young kids. My kid is DONE after a half hour of homework in the evening.

I agree with you about supplementation, but my experience is that MCPS has actually done this one thing right by reintroducing phonics education. Yes, they got it wrong, but so did basically the entire primary education establishment.

This year's third graders absolutely got the sharp end of the stick. Before the curriculum revamp, kindergarten online, the weird post-covid year for first grade. They need targeted intervention for sure, but I'm not sure that the situation is quite so dire in other grades.

Oh my gosh this. My third grader did not learn one single thing in virtual kindergarten. Not the teacher’s fault it’s just not something that ever should have happened. My daughter was already reading and doing more advanced math and she will be ok. But some of those kids really really needed kindergarten. Plus being out for 10 days at a time over and over during first grade. My daughter’s teacher has said as much - these kids are really struggling. I can’t believe the notes and things that were coming home from her friends even last year that were basically unintelligible.

I would love to see some data that looks at outcomes by grade. At the population level I think that the data shows most kids have made up the learning loss from the pandemic. But if we break it out by grade level, I think we would see that kids in preschool and kindergarten during the closed year are still showing gaps.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

MCPS also has implemented Science of Reading across all ES, has Dibels for K-2, and has an RFP out for a new ES ELA curriculum. There is reading specialist in all ES.

The above said, I’m always amazed that parents don’t think they need to be heavily involved with teaching their kids to read.

I, too, am amazed that parents rely heavily on schools for the success of their kids especially in reading. Reading is something that you introduce to your kids as early as you, parents, want. Some moms read to their kids while they're still in the womb! If you didn't do any reading to your kid at an early age and you expect them to be at or above their reading level, then you must know that the problem is you and not the school system.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

MCPS also has implemented Science of Reading across all ES, has Dibels for K-2, and has an RFP out for a new ES ELA curriculum. There is reading specialist in all ES.

The above said, I’m always amazed that parents don’t think they need to be heavily involved with teaching their kids to read.

I, too, am amazed that parents rely heavily on schools for the success of their kids especially in reading. Reading is something that you introduce to your kids as early as you, parents, want. Some moms read to their kids while they're still in the womb! If you didn't do any reading to your kid at an early age and you expect them to be at or above their reading level, then you must know that the problem is you and not the school system.

So much ignorance in this post. READING to your kid is not the same as instruction.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:We're in DCPS and I don't understand how this is STILL happening in MCPS. We've been pleasantly surprised to see how well DCPS has course corrected regarding reading and our own experience has been phenomenal -- all evidence-based, focus on phonics, no Lucy Caulkins nonsense at all.

We're contemplating a move to MoCo for several reasons, including schools (in a bad HS triangle in DC) and this is giving me pause.

My second grader in MCPS has consistently been taught phonics in school since the beginning, definitely more than my current fourth grader received (I remember sight word books and “look at the pictures for clues” during the zoom school days). I don’t know where the current third graders fall. Was there a change to the MCPS curriculum with more phonics starting with the kids who are now second graders?

RGR was implemented at most schools in the 2022/2023 school year. I also have a second grader and it was a huge shift between kindergarten and 1st grade. In kindergarten they were bringing home lists of sight words to memorize and being taught cueing, which I could tell was not really working for DC. I was relieved when they actually started learning phonics in 1st grade.

So my understanding is that current 3rd graders would have gotten RGR only last year.

MCPS also has implemented Science of Reading across all ES, has Dibels for K-2, and has an RFP out for a new ES ELA curriculum. There is reading specialist in all ES.

The above said, I’m always amazed that parents don’t think they need to be heavily involved with teaching their kids to read.

There's a new RFP? They actually going to make a selection this time?

IMO parental involvement should be in a supporting role- e.g., trained instructors should introduce the phonics skills and parents help their kids practice at home. For too long terrible methods were being used in the classroom and really hard to try to get your kids to sound out the words when they are being taught at school to look at the picture and guess. Ask me how I know.

Parents should be in the drivers seat when teaching kids the Alphabet, basic numbers, and how to read. Just like they should be in the drivers seat in teaching basic life skills and manners. I’m tired of folks being like it’s really hard to do this or that because of school. Parenting is work. No one has ever said it should be easy.

Do I think that schools should have been using Phonics instruction all along, Yes. But the fact they weren’t in no way stopped me from doing what was needed for my children to read. If folks want to farm out the above responsibilities, fine that’s their prerogative. But IMO that in no way removes the accountability from parents.

This is hilarious. Schools have removed so much from ES to focus on math and reading. But now you're saying it's the parents responsibility to teach thir kids to read? Has this memo been passed on to parents who don't speak English as a first language?

I completely do not rely on ES to teach my child math or reading. They just don't have time anymore. All their efforts go to supporting a small group of students who struggle.

Exactly- only struggling students get a good education anymore. I do think this is a shock to parents who went to school decades ago. My own parents really didn’t have to do anything unless we asked them for help on a project.

Hmmm, my own parents were very involved in my education. But my mom SAH and had time to help us. Now kids are at aftercare or with a sitter until 5 or 6pm and of course they're tired and there is no time to put in the extra work. And on weekends they are overscheduled with sports and activities.

+1. My parents also were involved. Reviewed homework, quizzed me before spelling test, proofread book reports, etc. Neither of them was a SAHP. Guess it depends on what people want to prioritize.

I agree with the over scheduling of kids in sports and activities.

My parents did none of that and we also didn’t do “activities.” As a result my expectation was that our kid would take responsibility for his own work and….he did. It’s saner for all of us.

So because your parents didn’t do their job, you won’t either. Got it. Super idea of you to have children!

Not PP, I view it as one of my jobs as a parent to teach them independence and responsibility. Not helicopter over their homework to make sure they never get a wrong answer.

It's not helicopter parenting to encourage reading in the home and help facilitate that. I guess critical thinking is difficult for you.

I guess it is necessary to spell this out because this possibility doesn’t even seem to be on your radar.

My kid intrinsically likes reading and does it for an hour or so a day without anyone telling them to. I don’t have to “encourage” it; “encouraging it” would be a non sequitur.

We do supply books that the kid doesn’t have to buy with the sweat of their own brow. I guess that is “encouragement”—but I doubt it’s what you were picturing when you were chastising me for not “doing my job” as a parent.

These kids are all in different places and that is fine. I don’t expect the school to abandon teaching reading because my kid already knows how to do it. But for some reason you seem to feel strongly that everyone needs to do what you do. Why is that?

Why are you even joining this convo? The original reply was to someone who was proud they weren't teaching their kids to read or at the very least, helping because their parents didn't bother to teach them to read. Just because you weren't raised correctly doesn't mean you need to perpetuate the cycle. You'd think in the year 2024 people who understand this. DP btw.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Schools are for social learning
Tutors and home is for academics

How come private schools can teach more effectively than public schools when it comes to K-3?

Will mcps please hire a consultant to propose changes to the curriculum that will allow public schools to challenge and equip students the way catholic schools do?

Note: catholic schools arguably have far less funding and less trained teachers, yet students quickly learn to read, spell, understand grammar, write in cursive, etc. Heck, they even learn a foreign language! Class sizes at area catholic schools skyrocketed during the pandemic, so they know how to handle big classes. And ICYMI: bipoc families are scrambling to get into area privates as the mass exodus from mcps continues.

Don’t say “Catholic schools can expel troublemakers!”

We are talking about K-3, not middle school or MS13 high school.

I went to Catholic school in the 70s/80s…before adhd and medicated kids were a thing. We had a smattering of kids who definitely had behavior issues. Nonetheless, everyone learned.

Heck, at this point I’d support uniforms, desks in rows, and classrooms grouped by ability. Worth a shot, no? Pilot an old school curriculum and see what happens. Be sure to incorporate grammar (we had spelling workbooks that incorporated vocabulary and grammar). I bet the kids will outpace their counterparts.

Privates aren't 35%+ ESM students with the addition of students with behavioral issues. They won't even admit kids with behavioral issues. These situations are not comparable.

So you are saying the ESM students are negatively impacting everyone else?

Then shouldn’t those kids be in a different class?

We have these things called laws, written by politicians, assuming idyllic conditions. Not to mention research. These things find and suggest that EML students do best and acquire language faster when immersed in regular classrooms with the language. These things also indicate that special education students should be in the least restrictive classroom and are entitled to a full range of services in order to allow for access the curriculum and class.

Now, most teachers nor people have any problem with the above ideals, however each does require extra time, funds, and training, to make work properly.

You quoted a bit related to ESM…not ESL.

Different kids, different issues…right?

ICYMI: catholic schools in the inner city (think: Baltimore, South Side of Chicago, Compton, etc.) are largely catering to…wait for it…Latinos!!! They can somehow navigate the whole bilingual thing fairly well.)

But we are talking about ESM…different issues.

Maybe mcps needs to find a better solution *if* those kids are the reason why so many 3rd graders can’t read.

I’m not convinced a few kids with extreme emotional issues and behavioral outbursts are the reason why so many third graders can’t read. Another poster suggested it as the reason why even poorly resourced Catholic schools churn out better educated kids than mcps…arguably one of the best resourced districts on the planet.

DP.. Those inner city catholic schools can still pick and choose whom they decide to educate. The parents who put their kids in those schools obviously care about their kids' education. That's where it starts. The parents. Parents do not have to know how to read themselves, but if they care about their kid's education, they will make sure that the kids have the support at home needed to do well in school.

My parents do not speak any English. So, they did not help with HW at all. But, they wanted me to do well in school, and as I got older, I saw education as a way out poverty.

I have always been of the opinion that parents and teachers are partners in educating the children. Like I said, the parent doesn't need to be teaching the kids at home, but they do need to provide support. And in MCPS, there are so many programs for ELL students. It's a matter of priorities and having the time.

Having stated that, we read to our kids every night when they were very little. We made reading a priority. Lots of trips to the library, and used bookstores. Both my kids were reading before Ker, and yea, we used phonics. Stupid to not use a combination of phonics and context clues.

We didn't push them; it just happened because they were surrounded by books. We limited screen time when they were very little. I think that helped.

My DS#1 is now 18 and said that limiting screen time before the age of 8 is crucial for getting kids to learn to love reading. He said he was thankful that we did that, but we were more lax with DC#2, which I regret, but it's harder to limit the younger when the older one is watching tv.

Catholic elementary schools are not as selective as you think. They take kids from the parish.

Schools have shifted to serve the low-income minorities in their parish boundaries (and then some). Just like mcps, it’s a mix of parents who are invested in their child’s education and those who are checked out (or struggling as a single mom or grandmother raising kids while working multiple jobs).

Enough with the excuses!

Why not admit that mcps isn’t doing the best it can and lessons can be learned from schools that are outpacing us. The curriculum matters. The resources matter. For whatever reason, mcps has done a really, really bad job over the last decade or so when it comes to such things.

Perhaps we need a ceo with business acumen and commonsense to make some changes? Go find a guy who was educated by jesuits. I bet you he will make a positive impact.

I'm not excusing MCPS. The numbers are appalling, but I also don't think it's fair to compare a large public school with a significant portion of ELL to a small private that can pick and choose who they want, even if they admit lower performing students; they can still kick out a kid for whatever reason. Public schools cannot do that.

MCPS' experiment with their curriculum was an unmitigated disaster. My DC#1 was the first class to get curriculum 2.0. I was willing to give it a chance, but it was horrible. Thankfully, DC had already been reading two grades above when they implemented it.

It was stupid to get rid of phonics. That's exactly how DC learned to read at 3.