The end of the U.S. university: “degree optional”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In other countries-once you pick a major, you study to become/work in that industry. There aren’t many if any general courses. Undergrad is almost like the equivalent of undergrad and grad/professional school.

this. My son’s friend went to college in Germany studying Mech Eng. Her first class was thermodynamics. No Bs fluff classes, just straight to the meat. Apparently the same if you want to become a doctor. No undergrad crap. Straight to doctor stuff .

At the end of the day, engineer, doctor, accountant, lawyer and many other jobs are just "white collar" trades. I agree that other countries accelerate nearly all these degrees...lawyers are produced in 5 years vs. 7...not sure how long it takes to finish undergrad and grad for medical school other than it is less than 8 years.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In other countries-once you pick a major, you study to become/work in that industry. There aren’t many if any general courses. Undergrad is almost like the equivalent of undergrad and grad/professional school.

this. My son’s friend went to college in Germany studying Mech Eng. Her first class was thermodynamics. No Bs fluff classes, just straight to the meat. Apparently the same if you want to become a doctor. No undergrad crap. Straight to doctor stuff .

But Germany also culls its class at age 12-13 where only a small percentage go on a college track. I don't think we really want to replicate that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it's a great move by companies as it will allow more access to professional jobs.
I don't think it will dramatically shift the US culture of valuing a college degree anytime soon. In a million ways, college experiences create an advantage for those who attend over those who don't. Think about the hs kids who went away to college, vs those who only attended community college or who never went. Put them both in a boardroom. Who wins?

My kid has a welder/CNC-fabricator. Put him in a machine shop with a Wharton School MBA, have both build automated package handling systems for an Amazon distribution center.

Who wins?

The Wharton grad who consults about process and walks away with 50x whatever the CNC operator can get away with charging

Business school in no way qualifies anyone to “consult about process.” It teaches know-nothing 20 something’s to pull “models” out of their @sses which have nothing to do with the real world and which are of zero help in predicting anything or making informed decisions.

Getting an MBA from a top program was a hoop I had to jump through for the job I wanted, but nothing I learned has served me in any way shape or form in the 30 years since getting it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would rather that the workforce be educated and know how to think critically. Reduce the barriers to education, not the barriers to employment.

Given the scholarship coming out of higher education and the behavior of students and their activism in recent years, it's hard to see college teaching kids how to think critically but more an ideological factory.

As it is, most people really don't need nor benefit from a rarefied higher education. Real world is in many ways the best teacher there is.

I’d argue the opposite. Kids are taught explicitly to think critically about the late stage capitalist empire in which we live rather than absorbing the platitudes of the two party system that fiddles while Rome (literally, soon) burns.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In pursuit of equity, most top corporations intend to implement a “college/university degree optional” clause for all employee hiring within the next 5 years.

With the elimination of degree requirements, why bother with the expense and time to earn a college degree?

I don't see degree as a need but college education builds foundation for personal and professional development.

No, more than anything else, college builds student loan debt, poor credit scores, and bad judgement

College leads to a degree which is still the preference of the vast majority of employers for jobs that you would actually want you kid to do

Again with the turning up the nose at the trades.

My welder daughter is 26 and debt free save for her house. She has a brand new truck, a home of her own bought with no co signer two years ago.

She works to live and not the opposite.

Oh yes, she paid for her schooling herself which was reimbursed by her employer. She is now working on an MBA for the skills and knowledge to be able to own and run her own business.

The world needs more welders and plumbers and hvac workers, etc.

I want that more for children than a paper degree.

So, just to be clear: Your 26 yo welder daughter has a bachelor's degree? Because last I checked, a bachelor's degree was still a requirement for entry into graduate school.

Also, my kid graduated from a 4-year university at 21 and owns a house and a car without co-signers, too. He's debt-free as well, earns $125,000 and has savings. Not sure what your point is?

There are many part-time MBA programs that don't require an undergraduate degree, especially if a company sponsors you.

I’ve never heard of this. Please name some of these schools that award Masters degrees without completing any undergraduate degree.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You still need a college degree to get a good spouse.

Those types who have conditions are probably not all that desirable to most people anyway. No great loss.

[Anonymous]

This dichotomy of college vs trades that I see on this board is false. There’s alot in between that, and not everyone who doesn’t go to college, decide to just go learn a trade (or vice versa).

I don’t know the statistics but given the hoopla about declining numbers of tradesmen, I imagine that the vast majority of people who don’t go to college do not end up learning a trade. They just get regular jobs that don’t require a degree, like a bookkeeper, general office worker, admin/executive assistant, realtor, mechanic, airport worker, store manager, medical worker etc. Some start a business, like real estate, handyman or landscaping. This is the reality for most of the people that I personally know without college degrees.

In my own life, say what you will but the people I know with college degrees are more content with their options and opportunities in life and more financially successful than the ones without. Life has turned out to be much easier for them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In pursuit of equity, most top corporations intend to implement a “college/university degree optional” clause for all employee hiring within the next 5 years.

With the elimination of degree requirements, why bother with the expense and time to earn a college degree?

I don't see degree as a need but college education builds foundation for personal and professional development.

No, more than anything else, college builds student loan debt, poor credit scores, and bad judgement

College leads to a degree which is still the preference of the vast majority of employers for jobs that you would actually want you kid to do

Again with the turning up the nose at the trades.

My welder daughter is 26 and debt free save for her house. She has a brand new truck, a home of her own bought with no co signer two years ago.

She works to live and not the opposite.

Oh yes, she paid for her schooling herself which was reimbursed by her employer. She is now working on an MBA for the skills and knowledge to be able to own and run her own business.

The world needs more welders and plumbers and hvac workers, etc.

I want that more for children than a paper degree.

So, just to be clear: Your 26 yo welder daughter has a bachelor's degree? Because last I checked, a bachelor's degree was still a requirement for entry into graduate school.

Also, my kid graduated from a 4-year university at 21 and owns a house and a car without co-signers, too. He's debt-free as well, earns $125,000 and has savings. Not sure what your point is?

That’s an ahole response. His point was that his daughter has been successful in her job as a welder and has led her to owning a home on her own at 26, a young age for a single person. She’s way ahead of the typical couple who are buying a house with two incomes at around 30 years old. Don’t act like what she’s done isn’t impressive.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DH has a degree but has no advanced degree and has lawyers working for him (the horror!) He learned on the job and could easily practice law in that one specialized area.

Well no. And nor can nurses do the job of the doctor - there is special training involved that teaches how to think like a lawyer or like a doctor that others don't have or pick up. But yes, he could do most of the job of the lawyer. Just not the most important part.

If there are no court appearances required then yes, it’s easy to train someone to be completely knowledgeable about a specialized area. There is no magic thinking a lawyer needs, just years of experience. Lawyers aren’t even close to the skills doctors need. They are not equal in ability. Don’t insult doctors.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We should strive for a more educated populace. This feels like the opposite.

This would only seem to serve to increase the chasm between the haves and the have-nots.

But it also feels like that might be part of the intent.

Also after this is implemented will the lack of an education be used as a reason to lower compensation ?

This feels like society going backwards.

I completely agree with all of this. I feel like this is in the same vein as things like quiet quitting and rage quitting that developed during Covid, which only serves to stunt careers and wage growth. It is a race to the bottom.

I think that ultimately there is a growing segment of the US population that is lazy and does not wish to work or do anything productive to society at all, and do the absolute bare minimum, while still expecting the same fruits of labor that people who worked hard already have. I’m not sure how all of this will end up playing out over the next decade.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it's a great move by companies as it will allow more access to professional jobs.
I don't think it will dramatically shift the US culture of valuing a college degree anytime soon. In a million ways, college experiences create an advantage for those who attend over those who don't. Think about the hs kids who went away to college, vs those who only attended community college or who never went. Put them both in a boardroom. Who wins?

My kid has a welder/CNC-fabricator. Put him in a machine shop with a Wharton School MBA, have both build automated package handling systems for an Amazon distribution center.

Who wins?

The Wharton grad who consults about process and walks away with 50x whatever the CNC operator can get away with charging

That wasn’t the scenario as-defined. I’m sorry your reading comprehension so poor. MBA?

Do you really think a cnc operator is capable of delivering an automated package handling system for Amazon? There are engineers who spend their entire careers specializing in designing those systems.

Again - your reading comprehension fails you.

I didn’t say “CNC operator”. I said CNC fabricator.

I used the Amazon example because my son actually did that exact contract for an Amazon distribution center in Kansas City.

But what is your point? Okay, so your son can build things for Amazon, that’s awesome. Clap. But guess what, other types of workers are also necessary to make a business and a country successful. Knowledge work is work too, and is needed for our current society to function.

Please stop gloating bc your son did not operate in a vacuum. He was part of a team of people with different strengths and skill sets who came together to deliver that system for Amazon. So you should give all those others their kudos too, including the IT people who programmed it, the attorneys that wrote and reviewed the contracts, the accountants and finance professionals who tracked expense and made sure your son and everyone else got paid, the consultants who designed and delivered training and decks for the whole thing, etc.

Understand that trades people do not operate in a vacuum or silo. No one does. That lady with the welder daughter forgets to embrace that her DD will hire attorneys, tax people and accountants if/when she starts a business, and will be going to bankers for funding and money management.

[Anonymous]

I will say this. I have managed several teams during my career. I have worked in lots of different types of environments, both with hourly and salaried workers. Generally speaking, there is a different type of mentality among people who have been college educated. I’m not saying they’re better or worse than any other worker, I’m simply pointing out that there is a marked difference in how they think versus people who have not received college education.

And it’s not about intelligence. I think it’s moreso a lack of exposure to broader perspectives about things. I have found that it’s harder to train uneducated workers from hourly backgrounds. IME they have found it more difficult to grasp abstract and nonlinear concepts and tasks. I’m sure there are exceptions somewhere, but this is my experience.

If someone is fine limiting their knowledge in life and accepts that, I do not judge them for that. But I do think it’s shortsighted as a modern society to say that college education is worthless and should be minimized or done away with, or reserved for a select few. I am not aware of any safe, successful, productive countries that are devaluing lower or higher education.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In pursuit of equity, most top corporations intend to implement a “college/university degree optional” clause for all employee hiring within the next 5 years.

With the elimination of degree requirements, why bother with the expense and time to earn a college degree?

I don't see degree as a need but college education builds foundation for personal and professional development.

No, more than anything else, college builds student loan debt, poor credit scores, and bad judgement

College leads to a degree which is still the preference of the vast majority of employers for jobs that you would actually want you kid to do

Again with the turning up the nose at the trades.

My welder daughter is 26 and debt free save for her house. She has a brand new truck, a home of her own bought with no co signer two years ago.

She works to live and not the opposite.

Oh yes, she paid for her schooling herself which was reimbursed by her employer. She is now working on an MBA for the skills and knowledge to be able to own and run her own business.

The world needs more welders and plumbers and hvac workers, etc.

I want that more for children than a paper degree.

So, just to be clear: Your 26 yo welder daughter has a bachelor's degree? Because last I checked, a bachelor's degree was still a requirement for entry into graduate school.

Also, my kid graduated from a 4-year university at 21 and owns a house and a car without co-signers, too. He's debt-free as well, earns $125,000 and has savings. Not sure what your point is?

That’s an ahole response. His point was that his daughter has been successful in her job as a welder and has led her to owning a home on her own at 26, a young age for a single person. She’s way ahead of the typical couple who are buying a house with two incomes at around 30 years old. Don’t act like what she’s done isn’t impressive.

Try to keep up: I was calling him out as a lying liar who lies since no university accepts a student into an MBA program who doesn’t have a bachelor’s degree. And since he is caught lying about THAT it’s safe to assume the rest of his anecdote is complete and utter bullshit too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There is a timely article out today. Some highlights:

"Nearly half of US companies intend to eliminate Bachelor's degree requirements for some job positions next year, a new survey has revealed.

And 55 percent said they'd already eliminated degree requirements this year, according to an Intelligent.com survey of 800 US employers, carried out in November.

It comes after Walmart, IBM, Accenture, Bank of America and Google announced similar plans.

For example, Accenture launched an apprenticeship program in 2016 through which it has since hired 1,200 people, CNBC reported.

INDUSTRIES DROPPING DEGREE REQUIREMENT
Information services: 72%

Software: 62%

Finance and insurance: 61%

Construction: 55%

Healthcare and social assistance: 42%

Education: 35%


Some 80 percent of those people joined the company without a four-year-degree.

Earlier this year, the company expanded the program with the goal of filling 20 percent of its US entry-level roles.

Among the 55 percent of companies who eliminated bachelor's degree requirements, 70 percent did so for entry-level roles, 61 percent for mid-level roles and 45 percent for senior roles.

And of the 95 percent of employers who have bachelor's degree requirements, 24 percent require these degrees for three-quarters of their jobs and 27 percent say they require a degree for about half of their positions."

The last sentence seems written poorly...I gather that is 95% of the 45% of companies that have not eliminated bachelor's degree requirements.

What people seem to missing in this discussion is that doing away with degree and education requirements makes it easier to hire immigrants and offshore workers who are not in the US, and to lower overall wages across the board in the US. If you are fine with that, then great.

But yes everyone, please carry on with your crusade to kill higher education and any ability to think critically and analytically in the US. I personally think it’s propaganda created and fueled by the elite powers that be, to make it even easier to create a cheaper and broader workforce that extends outside our borders.

Which is already the case but now will be even easier bc hey, why pay MBA-Tina $125k to do a job that Rajithanarayan over in India (who DOES have a degree btw) will accept $35k to do. This is what is happening every day in corporate America, and non-degreed American workers are being replaced by cheaper DEGREED workers in India and the Philippines. The irony is hilarious. But hey, what do I know?!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In pursuit of equity, most top corporations intend to implement a “college/university degree optional” clause for all employee hiring within the next 5 years.

With the elimination of degree requirements, why bother with the expense and time to earn a college degree?

I don't see degree as a need but college education builds foundation for personal and professional development.

No, more than anything else, college builds student loan debt, poor credit scores, and bad judgement

College leads to a degree which is still the preference of the vast majority of employers for jobs that you would actually want you kid to do

Again with the turning up the nose at the trades.

My welder daughter is 26 and debt free save for her house. She has a brand new truck, a home of her own bought with no co signer two years ago.

She works to live and not the opposite.

Oh yes, she paid for her schooling herself which was reimbursed by her employer. She is now working on an MBA for the skills and knowledge to be able to own and run her own business.

The world needs more welders and plumbers and hvac workers, etc.

I want that more for children than a paper degree.

So, just to be clear: Your 26 yo welder daughter has a bachelor's degree? Because last I checked, a bachelor's degree was still a requirement for entry into graduate school.

Also, my kid graduated from a 4-year university at 21 and owns a house and a car without co-signers, too. He's debt-free as well, earns $125,000 and has savings. Not sure what your point is?

Same. In most of America outside of expensive cities, working adults in their 20s (degreed or not) are able to save, invest and purchase homes and cars. Most of my friends/peers and myself were homeowners by our mid-20s. I’m not understanding the big deal about that anecdote.