Why apply to an Oberlin/Kenyon/Grinnell

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Grinnell is frickin loaded. They support kids with a lot of opportunities during their 4 years.

Sure, but all that money can’t change the location. Our DC visited and concluded, despite our efforts, it would be depressing to go there based on the tiny town, isolated location, difficulty with flights (so fewer friends would visit and easier to get stuck in a random connecting airport during a storm, which almost happened during visit), Trump signs on the drive in, multiple gun shops in town (stands out more when there’s so little else), and small/boring (in their view) campus. The academics are, however, first rate, and they are known for their merit aid. Facilities are very good. An alum we know was very positive on their experience from decades ago. Would recommend visiting if possible cause not everyone will react the same way. Some athletes might prefer schools with shorter commutes for league games, as only one other school is in the same state. Did not visit Oberlin or Kenyon.

Yea, well, with a 9 percent acceptance rate and one of the most geographically diverse student bodies of any college in the country, it attracts plenty of applicants who aren’t discouraged by such trivial stuff. Grinnell is doing just fine without your kid.

Wow, a personal dig. Well, my kid is doing fine without Grinnell too, but neither is the point. The point I thought was to help people who haven’t visited understand both the pros and cons so they can decide whether applying or visiting is worth their time. If you re-read my post, I listed both the pros and cons we saw. Your purpose seems different. But I find your immediate reference to admit rate very telling. It’s as if you think legitimate concerns regarding mental health can be overlooked if admit rate is something parents can brag about on anonymous forums.

Since you brought up admit rates, tell me, what do you think Grinnell’s admit rate would be if they required a supplemental essay like most schools? LACs are supposed to be about fit, and this ultra endowed LAC dropped the one part of the application that asks students to explain why they see the college as a fit. Between no supplement and no application fee, I’m honestly surprised they don’t have a much lower acceptance rate than their class of 2027 rate of 13% (not 9% as you say). It costs nothing, time or money, to apply. When they had a supplement their admit rate was in the mid 30s. They dropped it in 2014 and, big surprise, as word got around it costs no money or work to apply to Grinnell, applications went up. Admit rate going down doesn’t fundamentally change the experience. It still has the lowest retention rate of any of the top 15 LACs; in fact students are *twice* as likely not to return after their first year as at the others averaged. If the aforementioned concerns were “trivial” as you dismissively claim, first year transfers out wouldn’t be double its peers.

Grinnell will absolutely be a good fit for some and, as already mentioned in the post you replied to, has a lot of positives. But I think honesty will help not hurt those matches occur. Grinnell’s retention and grad rates have actually dropped as their admit rates have gone down, because no supplemental essay means weaker fits. There’s a reason why USNWR counts retention and graduation rates and not admit rates; practices that drive low admit rates are at best irrelevant to the experience but at worst negatively impacting it. If families want to be spared the difficulty of a transfer or a health crisis, they should learn what they can about both the pros and cons early in the process. Personal attacks because someone shares both positive and negatives doesn’t signal institutional (or for that matter personal) strength.

Part of Grinnell’s lower retention rate apparently has to do with the high percentage of international students who are, I’ve heard second hand, more likely to transfer or not return. There is a supplemental essay - I think it’s optional but it comes out in January. So they get their extra applications for sure by being free and doing a surprise supplemental (like Hamilton). But it shouldn’t impact fit negatively. They also are using ED heavily now, which I’d imagine will increase retention rates.

Per their website, there isn't a supplement, optional or otherwise. There is a mechanism to submit an optional arts porfolio. In the optional art portfolio section they mention it is possible to submit writing samples. I don't think this is what people mean by supplements, even optional ones, in that it doesn't sound like they are asking the student to optionally write about why they want to go to the college, but they are allowing students to optionally submit more work they have already done for high school or on their own.

https://www.grinnell.edu/admission/apply/first-year/requirements

From what I understand, there are certain colleges out there that don't necessarily advertise a supplemental essay that should be submitted along with the application. It seems like after one has submitted the application, the applicant will get an email asking them to submit a supplemental essay. I heard of this (on this site) regarding another college and assume that is what the poster meant by the supplemental essay coming out in January.

That's true at some places, but Grinnell actually says "no required supplement" on their requirements and deadlines page. There's no mention of an optional supplement, just the optional arts portfolio.

Optional in that you can “choose” not to submit a strong portfolio. There may be consequences.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Grinnell is frickin loaded. They support kids with a lot of opportunities during their 4 years.

Sure, but all that money can’t change the location. Our DC visited and concluded, despite our efforts, it would be depressing to go there based on the tiny town, isolated location, difficulty with flights (so fewer friends would visit and easier to get stuck in a random connecting airport during a storm, which almost happened during visit), Trump signs on the drive in, multiple gun shops in town (stands out more when there’s so little else), and small/boring (in their view) campus. The academics are, however, first rate, and they are known for their merit aid. Facilities are very good. An alum we know was very positive on their experience from decades ago. Would recommend visiting if possible cause not everyone will react the same way. Some athletes might prefer schools with shorter commutes for league games, as only one other school is in the same state. Did not visit Oberlin or Kenyon.

Umm, I visit there every few months and there are no more Trump signs than what I see driving out to the DMV shore. Heck, there are Trumpers living in DC, MoCo, NoVA, so whatever.

I grew up in a rural part of a blue county (also blue) and there are more gun shops there than Grinnell, which is the county seat.

Yes, the location factors make it a challenge, but neither DC picked a college based on ability of HS friends to visit - that's what school breaks are for.

Breaks at schools don't necessarily coincide. Which is how one student on break can travel to another; both of our kids have done so, and both of them have been visited multiple times. Families and grandparents also visit and want easy access. Students, friends, or families can get stuck in airports, more often if using connecting regional flights on small planes during winter. We have heard from more than a few Grinnell families about travel issues and I think they were more upset than my words of caution would suggest. I am truly happy if your experience has been different.

Incidentally, the airport issue wasn't a dealbreaker for us. There was a combination of things. The endless flat cornfields came off as less interesting for our kid than areas one can hike or ski or swim or boat in. And the town was the smallest and had the least to do of any college town we saw. That could be more easily offset if the student body (1750) or campus (120 acres) were larger. And if you are an athlete who prefers studying at an actual desk, then having only one other in-state league school can be a nontrivial challenge. There was some hesitation about the academics as well. The department our child was most interested was smaller than at other schools. I'm sure it was good but there's a critical mass of profs for certain subjects and we felt Grinnell was a little thin in terms of headcount.

All that said, there are students that will love the campus and town, it has a great reputation, great facilities, and great aid. It's also great there are so many internationals, imo. I think it's a fantastic option for some. For prospective families, just do your research, even if the occasional poster on here tells you its overkill to think about what makes up fit for you.

The fact that you think there are “endless flat cornfields” indicates you spent no time driving around the outlying area of Grinnell. There are more rolling hills around the town than there are driving from DC to Rehoboth. And yes, no downhill skiing, but you are wrong on the other counts. I also never saw Grinnell hawking itself as a ski school.

Regarding a “thin” department, that happens at large and small schools. It’s the nature of tenure, retirements, and sundry other factors. Good to know in advance if that is your DC’s area of interest.

Yes, it’s great when folks can visit yet neither of my kids nor any of their friends selected colleges based on the ease of their HS friends visiting them. True, breaks don’t always align but there is nearly always overlap at winter break.

Weather and the related travel challenges can happen to a student anywhere, whether it’s the West coast, Midwest, the South, etc. There are daily direct flights from Des Moines to the East coast. The flight may be a little longer but the overall logistics seem no more challenging than they are to reach Amherst, Bates, Colby, or Williams.

Again, just seems odd to harbor such a negative level of detail for a school your kids don’t attend.

I thought PPs response was even-handed. They explained why they weren't interested in a particular school--noted some positives, but also why it didn't rise to be their particular top choice based on the criteria that mattered to their kid.

[Anonymous]

Acceptance rate at Colby and Bowdoin - 9%
Acceptance rate at Hamilton - 14%
Acceptance rate at Bates - 17%

Acceptance rate at Kenyon and Oberlin - 35%
Acceptance rate at Grinnell 11% but fewer east coast applicants than the ones you asked about.

This may be part of your answer.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Acceptance rate at Colby and Bowdoin - 9%
Acceptance rate at Hamilton - 14%
Acceptance rate at Bates - 17%

Acceptance rate at Kenyon and Oberlin - 35%
Acceptance rate at Grinnell 11% but fewer east coast applicants than the ones you asked about.

This may be part of your answer.

Take these acceptance rates with a grain of salt as they are deceptive. Not sure about other schools but at least a couple years ago, Colby and Grinnell required only the common app with no supplemental essays and no application fee. My kid applied to both because it required zero effort even though she had minimal interest in them. Ended up withdrawing her applications because she got in ED somewhere else

[Anonymous]

Earlier in the thread there was talk about merit aid at Kenyon - anyone with a kid there who is getting it?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Earlier in the thread there was talk about merit aid at Kenyon - anyone with a kid there who is getting it?

My kid was offered merit, ultimately enrolled elsewhere. According to the CDS, 30% of students get some sort of merit, average (mean) is about 16k — if I recall, my kid was offered slightly less than that. 12k, maybe?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Kenyon has the top DIII swim team -- that's why my kid applied.

Kenyon is without question a back up school for kids who really wanted but got rejected from the Northeast schools. Grinnell and Oberlin are for kids who are not interested in the northeast.

Kenyon has amazing facilities and is very beautiful

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:when there are similar schools on the East Coast? Not trying to be snarky; genuinely wondering what these schools have that a Bates/Bowdoin/Colby/Hamilton does not.

They are all safer than Bates. What's unsafe about Bates? Genuinely curious, don't know.

They are all easier admits than Bowdoin.

They all offer merit scholarships that are not offered at Hamilton.

Better weather. [OK... Ohio and Iowa winters are not Maine winters, but they still suck.]

Bates is in Lewiston/Auburn which has historically been a depressed (former mill towns no real industry - think smaller version of Lowell Massachusetts) and not super safe area. I’m not sure if that’s still the case FWIW. Brunswick, where Bowdoin is located, is safer but pretty depressing in my opinion. Then again, I went to Williams and western Massachusetts can be pretty depressing. Hamilton is in the middle of nowhere and that’s not fun. Most selective liberal arts schools have cons when it comes to location.

Wut?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Kenyon has the top DIII swim team -- that's why my kid applied.

Kenyon is without question a back up school for kids who really wanted but got rejected from the Northeast schools. Grinnell and Oberlin are for kids who are not interested in the northeast.

Kenyon has amazing facilities and is very beautiful

Agree. PP’s assessment is inconsistent with the people I’ve known who went there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Kenyon has the top DIII swim team -- that's why my kid applied.

Kenyon is without question a back up school for kids who really wanted but got rejected from the Northeast schools. Grinnell and Oberlin are for kids who are not interested in the northeast.

Kenyon has amazing facilities and is very beautiful

Doesn’t mean it isn’t a back up school. Its yield is pathetic.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Acceptance rate at Colby and Bowdoin - 9%
Acceptance rate at Hamilton - 14%
Acceptance rate at Bates - 17%

Acceptance rate at Kenyon and Oberlin - 35%
Acceptance rate at Grinnell 11% but fewer east coast applicants than the ones you asked about.

This may be part of your answer.

Colby and Bowdoin - no merit aid
Hamilton - no merit aid
Bates - no merit aid

Kenyon and Oberlin - merit aid available
Grinnell - merit aid available

There you have your answer.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Acceptance rate at Colby and Bowdoin - 9%
Acceptance rate at Hamilton - 14%
Acceptance rate at Bates - 17%

Acceptance rate at Kenyon and Oberlin - 35%
Acceptance rate at Grinnell 11% but fewer east coast applicants than the ones you asked about.

This may be part of your answer.

Colby and Bowdoin - no merit aid
Hamilton - no merit aid
Bates - no merit aid

Kenyon and Oberlin - merit aid available
Grinnell - merit aid available

There you have your answer.

Colby may not give merit aid but they have committed to being one of the most affordable small colleges in the country. Families that make less than $150K (which is a lot outside of the DC bubble) pay no more than $15k per year and more than 70% of families receive financial aid. Plus, the facilities are extraordinary. It does have the drawback of being in the middle of nowhere.

[Anonymous]

Actually you can ski in Iowa. Not huge resorts, but you can scratch the itch.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Kenyon has the top DIII swim team -- that's why my kid applied.

Kenyon is without question a back up school for kids who really wanted but got rejected from the Northeast schools. Grinnell and Oberlin are for kids who are not interested in the northeast.

Kenyon has amazing facilities and is very beautiful

Doesn’t mean it isn’t a back up school. Its yield is pathetic.

Why so much emphasis on yield? Maybe they are just less oriented towards artificially managing down yield versus other schools. First, almost half the class gets in ED. So these are students who are obviously making it the first or second choice (ED1/ED2) even if they are being strategic about it (which applies to every school, I think a lot of Hamilton ED applicants would theoretically go to Harvard if they could get in). But second, maybe they are more willing to cast a wide net in the RD round versus other schools to make sure they get the best students they can, with the knowledge that many will not enroll. If you are only admitting students who you feel highly confident will enroll, you are letting very good students who might enroll slip away. The quality of the student body that does enroll is what really matters, not the games the admissions office plays to appear selective. So look at the CDS data and draw your own conclusions.

The midwest LACs are more inconveniently located versus the abundance of east coast LACs- so it is logical that they would be de-prioritized for east coast families and in that sense not often make it as a first choice. But that's ok.

[Anonymous]

My kid was accepted to these three schools, along with some other SLACs in the Midwest and the East Coast, and eventually chose Grinnell. She loved them all and had a hard time deciding. They are all amazing schools that abundantly nurture their students, and she'd have received an excellent education at any of them.

Which one your kid likes best is very personal and not always entirely rational, kind of like falling in love. My kid wanted a liberal environment along with the "Midwest nice" vibe and intense academics. Several schools offered her that, and she felt most at home at Grinnell.
She is loving her experience there.