Why do some high schools allow open lunch and others do not

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I have many photos that show why an open campus at lunchtime is a safety issue.
I see 70 plus kids walk by and they all come back with their 7- 11 food and this is just by my house. The students leave in other directions, too.
Einstein has no idea who and how many leave and worse yet, they have no idea who's coming back into the building. Per the principal, there are no checks in place.

How is that a safety issue?

[Anonymous]

Many area public schools with open campus are actually happy not to have to assume responsibility for 2000 plus students at lunch in a cramped cafeteria (even if spread out over a few lunch periods).

DC area students have safely enjoyed open campus privileges for 50 years. If anything, more public schools should embrace open campus lunch.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Do kids really sit on the floor to eat??!?

Where are the cafeteria tables?

The cafeteria might have space for like 200 kids, if that. What is a school of 2000 going to do, have 10 lunches? Of course kids eat elsewhere. I ate sitting on the floor in the hallway with my friends at RMHS 20 years ago, with one open lunch for everyone, and we thought it was absolutely fine.

Eww that is nasty af

I guess large overcrowding schools are no big deal here. We had grade level lunches and there were tables for everyone. Definitely looking into private schools for middle and high school.

That’s rich. Good luck with that. But, if you want the slow math track and dumb down your kids, private is the way to go.

Give me a break on the bashing of private schools. My DD graduated Holton taking multivariable calculus as a senior. She also knew how to write papers, won the state chemathon and got a huge scholarship to her top college.

She had breakfast, lunch, and snacks served at Holton as they were not allowed to bring food from home in. They had enough tables/chairs in the cafe or courtyard so the girls could sit and eat. And since they didn't allow cell phones in school, it was a nice environment with healthy food and conversation. Here is the menu this week. https://mgdining.com/holton-arms/menus/

So give me a break on the "must eat on the floor to get a high math class" crap.

How is a burger and fries that great? Especially for what they charge?

As a public school parent, I have no reason to fight this, but even at full price tuition, getting warm breakfast, lunch, snacks, and uniforms would save me A LOT of money, headaches, and time. I absolutely hate shopping and packing lunches as a working mom and I know food is going to waste. It is a lot of money and wasted time each week. And then the clothes. I would do anything for public school to have uniforms.

And I was just curious about the menus so I googled Holton lunches and this came up. So I am guessing you can slam them for one burger options but the menus looks amazing and this is article kinda shows how important it is to the school. https://www.washingtonian.com/2016/02/29/washington-dc-cafeteria-meals-school-lunches-photos/

Look at the Holton uniforms. The girls skirts are so short it defeats the purpose of them and many pictures the girls look very messy. I would not want uniforms

They all wear sports shorts or VB shorts under their skirts so I would consider them skorts. In the winter they wear leggings under them. The point isn't to look prim and proper. The point is, there isn't a daily struggle with clothes and there isn't a crap ton of money being spent on them and it decreases laundry every week. It puts kids on a level playing field for the school day. I would be more concerned if a private school had them all dolled up, posh bags, posh shoes, etc... Private school kids may look a little sloppy, but at least it isn't pajama pants and sports bra.

How short the skirts are is far worse than a lot of the public school clothing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Einstein High School has a closed campus rule but the principal, Mark Brown, has stated that he will not enforce the rule.
As someone who lives near the school, I can tell you our neighborhood has been negatively affected.
Besides picking up trash every school day, I have photos of fights, drug use, drug deals and one student displaying a knife! I have passed these photos on to the principal and the BOE. Neither has done anything.
There are also those students roaming around after lunchtime and throughout the day. Einstein is a magnet school and very few, if any, of these kids live in the neighborhood.

I don't understand why MCPS gives principals this kind of latitude.

The truth is, Open Lunch has NEVER worked. Yes, there are some kids who do what they're supposed to do but the reality is, there will always be that minority of kids who abuse the privilege and ruin it for everybody. It was that way in '90s and it remains that way now.

So closed lunch IS the best way forward. But MCPS should look to partner with food vendors to have them do pop-ups to let kids buy the food INSIDE the school that they would buy outside. We have to stop pouring the money we pour into cafeteria food that the kids hate because it's tasteless, spoiled, or undesirable for whatever reasons. It's time for MCPS to innovate. Maybe MCPS should outsource cafeteria operations to a vendor completely. But the existing model isn't working for kids.

Many kids cannot afford that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Einstein High School has a closed campus rule but the principal, Mark Brown, has stated that he will not enforce the rule.
As someone who lives near the school, I can tell you our neighborhood has been negatively affected.
Besides picking up trash every school day, I have photos of fights, drug use, drug deals and one student displaying a knife! I have passed these photos on to the principal and the BOE. Neither has done anything.
There are also those students roaming around after lunchtime and throughout the day. Einstein is a magnet school and very few, if any, of these kids live in the neighborhood.

I don't understand why MCPS gives principals this kind of latitude.

The truth is, Open Lunch has NEVER worked. Yes, there are some kids who do what they're supposed to do but the reality is, there will always be that minority of kids who abuse the privilege and ruin it for everybody. It was that way in '90s and it remains that way now.

So closed lunch IS the best way forward. But MCPS should look to partner with food vendors to have them do pop-ups to let kids buy the food INSIDE the school that they would buy outside. We have to stop pouring the money we pour into cafeteria food that the kids hate because it's tasteless, spoiled, or undesirable for whatever reasons. It's time for MCPS to innovate. Maybe MCPS should outsource cafeteria operations to a vendor completely. But the existing model isn't working for kids.

Many kids cannot afford that.

But many can. They’re ordering UberEats and DoorDash to school now, where there are closed lunches. And the schools that have open lunches, the kids are going to those restaurants and shops and buying. Bring those shops to the school instead of having the kids go to them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Einstein High School has a closed campus rule but the principal, Mark Brown, has stated that he will not enforce the rule.
As someone who lives near the school, I can tell you our neighborhood has been negatively affected.
Besides picking up trash every school day, I have photos of fights, drug use, drug deals and one student displaying a knife! I have passed these photos on to the principal and the BOE. Neither has done anything.
There are also those students roaming around after lunchtime and throughout the day. Einstein is a magnet school and very few, if any, of these kids live in the neighborhood.

I don't understand why MCPS gives principals this kind of latitude.

The truth is, Open Lunch has NEVER worked. Yes, there are some kids who do what they're supposed to do but the reality is, there will always be that minority of kids who abuse the privilege and ruin it for everybody. It was that way in '90s and it remains that way now.

So closed lunch IS the best way forward. But MCPS should look to partner with food vendors to have them do pop-ups to let kids buy the food INSIDE the school that they would buy outside. We have to stop pouring the money we pour into cafeteria food that the kids hate because it's tasteless, spoiled, or undesirable for whatever reasons. It's time for MCPS to innovate. Maybe MCPS should outsource cafeteria operations to a vendor completely. But the existing model isn't working for kids.

Many kids cannot afford that.

But many can. They’re ordering UberEats and DoorDash to school now, where there are closed lunches. And the schools that have open lunches, the kids are going to those restaurants and shops and buying. Bring those shops to the school instead of having the kids go to them.

It’s far easier to maintain a successful six decade run of open campus. Even DCPS has open campus. No large constituency is calling for an end to open campus.

Regarding the above idea to bring trendy food options to a closed campus school, no district is going to team up with local fast food. Why waste the effort for limited return. There are likely legal issues involved as well, unless the district actually partners with a specific brand or vendor for a specific reason.

Both public schools and the students benefit from open campus which is why it’s not going away any time soon.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Einstein High School has a closed campus rule but the principal, Mark Brown, has stated that he will not enforce the rule.
As someone who lives near the school, I can tell you our neighborhood has been negatively affected.
Besides picking up trash every school day, I have photos of fights, drug use, drug deals and one student displaying a knife! I have passed these photos on to the principal and the BOE. Neither has done anything.
There are also those students roaming around after lunchtime and throughout the day. Einstein is a magnet school and very few, if any, of these kids live in the neighborhood.

I don't understand why MCPS gives principals this kind of latitude.

The truth is, Open Lunch has NEVER worked. Yes, there are some kids who do what they're supposed to do but the reality is, there will always be that minority of kids who abuse the privilege and ruin it for everybody. It was that way in '90s and it remains that way now.

So closed lunch IS the best way forward. But MCPS should look to partner with food vendors to have them do pop-ups to let kids buy the food INSIDE the school that they would buy outside. We have to stop pouring the money we pour into cafeteria food that the kids hate because it's tasteless, spoiled, or undesirable for whatever reasons. It's time for MCPS to innovate. Maybe MCPS should outsource cafeteria operations to a vendor completely. But the existing model isn't working for kids.

Many kids cannot afford that.

But many can. They’re ordering UberEats and DoorDash to school now, where there are closed lunches. And the schools that have open lunches, the kids are going to those restaurants and shops and buying. Bring those shops to the school instead of having the kids go to them.

Maybe in your world but I don’t know any kids doing that and mine are not. That would be terrible when not all kids can afford it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Einstein High School has a closed campus rule but the principal, Mark Brown, has stated that he will not enforce the rule.
As someone who lives near the school, I can tell you our neighborhood has been negatively affected.
Besides picking up trash every school day, I have photos of fights, drug use, drug deals and one student displaying a knife! I have passed these photos on to the principal and the BOE. Neither has done anything.
There are also those students roaming around after lunchtime and throughout the day. Einstein is a magnet school and very few, if any, of these kids live in the neighborhood.

I don't understand why MCPS gives principals this kind of latitude.

The truth is, Open Lunch has NEVER worked. Yes, there are some kids who do what they're supposed to do but the reality is, there will always be that minority of kids who abuse the privilege and ruin it for everybody. It was that way in '90s and it remains that way now.

So closed lunch IS the best way forward. But MCPS should look to partner with food vendors to have them do pop-ups to let kids buy the food INSIDE the school that they would buy outside. We have to stop pouring the money we pour into cafeteria food that the kids hate because it's tasteless, spoiled, or undesirable for whatever reasons. It's time for MCPS to innovate. Maybe MCPS should outsource cafeteria operations to a vendor completely. But the existing model isn't working for kids.

Many kids cannot afford that.

But many can. They’re ordering UberEats and DoorDash to school now, where there are closed lunches. And the schools that have open lunches, the kids are going to those restaurants and shops and buying. Bring those shops to the school instead of having the kids go to them.

Maybe in your world but I don’t know any kids doing that and mine are not. That would be terrible when not all kids can afford it.

You don't have to reduce "equity" ad absurdum.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Einstein High School has a closed campus rule but the principal, Mark Brown, has stated that he will not enforce the rule.
As someone who lives near the school, I can tell you our neighborhood has been negatively affected.
Besides picking up trash every school day, I have photos of fights, drug use, drug deals and one student displaying a knife! I have passed these photos on to the principal and the BOE. Neither has done anything.
There are also those students roaming around after lunchtime and throughout the day. Einstein is a magnet school and very few, if any, of these kids live in the neighborhood.

I don't understand why MCPS gives principals this kind of latitude.

The truth is, Open Lunch has NEVER worked. Yes, there are some kids who do what they're supposed to do but the reality is, there will always be that minority of kids who abuse the privilege and ruin it for everybody. It was that way in '90s and it remains that way now.

So closed lunch IS the best way forward. But MCPS should look to partner with food vendors to have them do pop-ups to let kids buy the food INSIDE the school that they would buy outside. We have to stop pouring the money we pour into cafeteria food that the kids hate because it's tasteless, spoiled, or undesirable for whatever reasons. It's time for MCPS to innovate. Maybe MCPS should outsource cafeteria operations to a vendor completely. But the existing model isn't working for kids.

Many kids cannot afford that.

But many can. They’re ordering UberEats and DoorDash to school now, where there are closed lunches. And the schools that have open lunches, the kids are going to those restaurants and shops and buying. Bring those shops to the school instead of having the kids go to them.

It’s far easier to maintain a successful six decade run of open campus. Even DCPS has open campus. No large constituency is calling for an end to open campus.

Regarding the above idea to bring trendy food options to a closed campus school, no district is going to team up with local fast food. Why waste the effort for limited return. There are likely legal issues involved as well, unless the district actually partners with a specific brand or vendor for a specific reason.

Both public schools and the students benefit from open campus which is why it’s not going away any time soon.

What are criteria are you using to claim the existing open campus policy is "successful"?

Again, as an MCPS student in the 90s, the issues people complain about with open campus lunches today are the same ones we had back in the day:

1) Kids leaving school for lunch and not returning for the rest of the school day
2) Fights/drugs off-campus (used to be far more concerned about cigarette smoking back then versus weed)
3) Theft and disorderly conduct in shops and restaurants

The question is: How much of these inevitable and unavoidable negative tradeoffs is the school and the surrounding community willing to accept in exchange for the economic activity or the perceived satisfaction of the parents or students who think open lunch is a positive experience? You apparently believe there's no floor. The store and restaurant owners disagree with you and many parents, who do not want their kids to be harmed as unsupervised and unruly teens target, bully or introduce their kids to high-risk behaviors, support a closed campus over an open campus.

It seems the volume of these kids of incidents has increased to extent that many schools have done the cost-benefit analysis and decided it's not worth it. That is just my gut feeling. It would be good if MCPS was transparent though and released that kind of data and set official guidelines that would be consistent so that students and parents understand at what level of incident reports open lunch is no longer an option for that school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Open campus lunch has worked for decades in many Montgomery County, Arlington, and DC public schools. It started in the late 60s and early 70s as students gained more freedom from then overbearing school administrations. MCPS, APS, and DCPS kept the open campus lunch policies in place because they worked so well over the years. Local businesses also benefited from the lunchtime rush. Student clubs, extracurriculars, and other activities are scheduled in coordination with the lunch periods. Also, notably, the public high schools with open lunches are within walking distance of homes, fast food joints, and businesses. The campuses also tend to be urban: B-CC, Walter Johnson, the former Blair, Jackson-Reed (Wilson), H-B Woodlawn, W-L, Yorktown, etc. Seniors in APS have open campus driving privileges.

Seneca Valley, which is not urban, used to have official open lunch, until a 15-year-old student was hit and killed while walking to school.

I don't know if Northwest ever had official open lunch, but that non-urban high school is also within walking distance of fast food.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Einstein High School has a closed campus rule but the principal, Mark Brown, has stated that he will not enforce the rule.
As someone who lives near the school, I can tell you our neighborhood has been negatively affected.
Besides picking up trash every school day, I have photos of fights, drug use, drug deals and one student displaying a knife! I have passed these photos on to the principal and the BOE. Neither has done anything.
There are also those students roaming around after lunchtime and throughout the day. Einstein is a magnet school and very few, if any, of these kids live in the neighborhood.

I don't understand why MCPS gives principals this kind of latitude.

The truth is, Open Lunch has NEVER worked. Yes, there are some kids who do what they're supposed to do but the reality is, there will always be that minority of kids who abuse the privilege and ruin it for everybody. It was that way in '90s and it remains that way now.

So closed lunch IS the best way forward. But MCPS should look to partner with food vendors to have them do pop-ups to let kids buy the food INSIDE the school that they would buy outside. We have to stop pouring the money we pour into cafeteria food that the kids hate because it's tasteless, spoiled, or undesirable for whatever reasons. It's time for MCPS to innovate. Maybe MCPS should outsource cafeteria operations to a vendor completely. But the existing model isn't working for kids.

Many kids cannot afford that.

But many can. They’re ordering UberEats and DoorDash to school now, where there are closed lunches. And the schools that have open lunches, the kids are going to those restaurants and shops and buying. Bring those shops to the school instead of having the kids go to them.

Maybe in your world but I don’t know any kids doing that and mine are not. That would be terrible when not all kids can afford it.

This is the most ridiculous logic I've seen. Your head is in the sand if you don't know kids ordering food to school.

My kids go to a Title I high school and MCPS where an overwhelming majority of the kids qualify for FARMS. And yet, UberEats and DoorDash pull up REGULARLY.

Many MCPS principals have complained about this problem and the disruptions it causes.

https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/montgomery-county-school-cracks-down-on-students-ordering-lunch-to-campus/138179/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/students-bored-by-cafeteria-fare-love-food-delivery-services-schools-dont/2019/06/07/2568d12c-8617-11e9-98c1-e945ae5db8fb_story.html

The idea of MCPS partnering with the vendors to bring those foods to school is actually a suggestion from other educators and it makes sense:

We have vending machines that bring popular snacks and drinks to kids for purchase. Why not these other meals?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Einstein High School has a closed campus rule but the principal, Mark Brown, has stated that he will not enforce the rule.
As someone who lives near the school, I can tell you our neighborhood has been negatively affected.
Besides picking up trash every school day, I have photos of fights, drug use, drug deals and one student displaying a knife! I have passed these photos on to the principal and the BOE. Neither has done anything.
There are also those students roaming around after lunchtime and throughout the day. Einstein is a magnet school and very few, if any, of these kids live in the neighborhood.

I don't understand why MCPS gives principals this kind of latitude.

The truth is, Open Lunch has NEVER worked. Yes, there are some kids who do what they're supposed to do but the reality is, there will always be that minority of kids who abuse the privilege and ruin it for everybody. It was that way in '90s and it remains that way now.

So closed lunch IS the best way forward. But MCPS should look to partner with food vendors to have them do pop-ups to let kids buy the food INSIDE the school that they would buy outside. We have to stop pouring the money we pour into cafeteria food that the kids hate because it's tasteless, spoiled, or undesirable for whatever reasons. It's time for MCPS to innovate. Maybe MCPS should outsource cafeteria operations to a vendor completely. But the existing model isn't working for kids.

Many kids cannot afford that.

But many can. They’re ordering UberEats and DoorDash to school now, where there are closed lunches. And the schools that have open lunches, the kids are going to those restaurants and shops and buying. Bring those shops to the school instead of having the kids go to them.

Maybe in your world but I don’t know any kids doing that and mine are not. That would be terrible when not all kids can afford it.

You don't have to reduce "equity" ad absurdum.

ha! love this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Open campus lunch has worked for decades in many Montgomery County, Arlington, and DC public schools. It started in the late 60s and early 70s as students gained more freedom from then overbearing school administrations. MCPS, APS, and DCPS kept the open campus lunch policies in place because they worked so well over the years. Local businesses also benefited from the lunchtime rush. Student clubs, extracurriculars, and other activities are scheduled in coordination with the lunch periods. Also, notably, the public high schools with open lunches are within walking distance of homes, fast food joints, and businesses. The campuses also tend to be urban: B-CC, Walter Johnson, the former Blair, Jackson-Reed (Wilson), H-B Woodlawn, W-L, Yorktown, etc. Seniors in APS have open campus driving privileges.

That is not true. Many businesses are fed up with the disruption and chaos of high school students and are CLOSING their doors to teens during lunch time or enacting enhanced security measures because of the disruption they cause:

https://www.wjpitch.com/the-catch-online/2023/03/30/chipotle-closes-its-doors-to-students/

https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/local/maryland/16-year-olds-arrested-charged-robbing-juvenile-mcdonalds-silver-spring/65-5685d1fe-5469-44e9-8a59-dc69cf64ae15

https://wjla.com/news/local/quince-orchard-high-school-changes-lunch-policy-montgomery-county-narcan-high-school-student-found-unconscious-mcdonalds-bathroom-possible-overdose-gaithersburg-opioid-fentanyl-mcpd-police-maryland-drugs-crime-dmv-mcps

https://thermtide.com/19169/popular/rms-open-lunch-policy-should-stay-despite-concerns/

Recently, some Richard Montgomery High School students shoplifted from the CVS in Ritchie Center. This resulted in CVS limiting the number of high schoolers allowed at a time inside. Seeing a line of high schoolers waiting to be admitted into CVS has now become a common occurrence.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Do kids really sit on the floor to eat??!?

Where are the cafeteria tables?

The cafeteria might have space for like 200 kids, if that. What is a school of 2000 going to do, have 10 lunches? Of course kids eat elsewhere. I ate sitting on the floor in the hallway with my friends at RMHS 20 years ago, with one open lunch for everyone, and we thought it was absolutely fine.

Eww that is nasty af

I guess large overcrowding schools are no big deal here. We had grade level lunches and there were tables for everyone. Definitely looking into private schools for middle and high school.

That’s rich. Good luck with that. But, if you want the slow math track and dumb down your kids, private is the way to go.

Give me a break on the bashing of private schools. My DD graduated Holton taking multivariable calculus as a senior. She also knew how to write papers, won the state chemathon and got a huge scholarship to her top college.

She had breakfast, lunch, and snacks served at Holton as they were not allowed to bring food from home in. They had enough tables/chairs in the cafe or courtyard so the girls could sit and eat. And since they didn't allow cell phones in school, it was a nice environment with healthy food and conversation. Here is the menu this week. https://mgdining.com/holton-arms/menus/

So give me a break on the "must eat on the floor to get a high math class" crap.

How is a burger and fries that great? Especially for what they charge?

As a public school parent, I have no reason to fight this, but even at full price tuition, getting warm breakfast, lunch, snacks, and uniforms would save me A LOT of money, headaches, and time. I absolutely hate shopping and packing lunches as a working mom and I know food is going to waste. It is a lot of money and wasted time each week. And then the clothes. I would do anything for public school to have uniforms.

And I was just curious about the menus so I googled Holton lunches and this came up. So I am guessing you can slam them for one burger options but the menus looks amazing and this is article kinda shows how important it is to the school. https://www.washingtonian.com/2016/02/29/washington-dc-cafeteria-meals-school-lunches-photos/

Look at the Holton uniforms. The girls skirts are so short it defeats the purpose of them and many pictures the girls look very messy. I would not want uniforms

They all wear sports shorts or VB shorts under their skirts so I would consider them skorts. In the winter they wear leggings under them. The point isn't to look prim and proper. The point is, there isn't a daily struggle with clothes and there isn't a crap ton of money being spent on them and it decreases laundry every week. It puts kids on a level playing field for the school day. I would be more concerned if a private school had them all dolled up, posh bags, posh shoes, etc... Private school kids may look a little sloppy, but at least it isn't pajama pants and sports bra.

How short the skirts are is far worse than a lot of the public school clothing.

They are wearing shorts underneath. Tons of public school kids wear sports shorts and CB booty shorts

[Anonymous]

I am still shocked Wawa is opening up in front of Gaithersburg high school.

That will be a train wreck.

Waited decades for a Wawa and it will be ruined in a month.