How to choose events for summer dual meets？

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Agree. At our pool I have never seen a line up that didn’t have the fastest kids swimming events.

The only time this doesn't happen is when you have an swimmer in a younger age group (usually the 8U) who is 100% legal in all strokes (and by association usually a very good freestyler) and they need that kid to swim all the other strokes to actually get points/places because there aren't enough other kids in the roster who are 100% legal. Then because of MCSL 3 event max even though the kid might be one of the top 6 freestyle they won't swim that. Beyond that, yes, 100% fastest kids.

Hmmm. We are in NVSL so we swim 2 events at A meets. If you have a kid who is top 1-3 in all four events, sometimes they’ll move that kid around to swim their lower ranked events based on seed times from the other team. It SHOULD be done to maximize team points, but it can lead to questions. This is why transparency is best—parents can see why their kid isn’t swimming in their best events, and coaches and reps have an incentive to stay honest.

For example: Larla swims to the top spots in free and back, but is second in breast and third in fly. Her coach might put her in free and fly if the back times from the other team are slow, and her fly time might score an extra point for the team. It gets dicey if Larla’s time is close to her competition in back and she gets edged out of a relay or divisional slot because she didn’t get to swim it at that meet.

Basically, it’s best for coaches and reps to treat people like adults and not try to hide anything—they may have to explain things but that’s part of the job.

These are the types of machinations I don’t have a problem with for summer swim since it’s a team competition based on points. If Larla’s individual back time was close but not better than the time needed for a relay or divisional slot, who is to say she would have lowered her time if she had swum it at one of the meets she didn’t swim it at. What should never happen though is some kid that is say 3rd on the ladder getting passed over not because they are needed to swim a different stroke but because the 4th kid is the rep’s kid.

Sure, but if larla had the slot and then couldn’t defend it at the final meet before the relay or divisionals, that would really suck for her.

I’ve also seen a team rep’s kid get preferential treatment. At least everyone else can see it when the data is public.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Agree. At our pool I have never seen a line up that didn’t have the fastest kids swimming events.

The only time this doesn't happen is when you have an swimmer in a younger age group (usually the 8U) who is 100% legal in all strokes (and by association usually a very good freestyler) and they need that kid to swim all the other strokes to actually get points/places because there aren't enough other kids in the roster who are 100% legal. Then because of MCSL 3 event max even though the kid might be one of the top 6 freestyle they won't swim that. Beyond that, yes, 100% fastest kids.

Hmmm. We are in NVSL so we swim 2 events at A meets. If you have a kid who is top 1-3 in all four events, sometimes they’ll move that kid around to swim their lower ranked events based on seed times from the other team. It SHOULD be done to maximize team points, but it can lead to questions. This is why transparency is best—parents can see why their kid isn’t swimming in their best events, and coaches and reps have an incentive to stay honest.

For example: Larla swims to the top spots in free and back, but is second in breast and third in fly. Her coach might put her in free and fly if the back times from the other team are slow, and her fly time might score an extra point for the team. It gets dicey if Larla’s time is close to her competition in back and she gets edged out of a relay or divisional slot because she didn’t get to swim it at that meet.

Basically, it’s best for coaches and reps to treat people like adults and not try to hide anything—they may have to explain things but that’s part of the job.

These are the types of machinations I don’t have a problem with for summer swim since it’s a team competition based on points. If Larla’s individual back time was close but not better than the time needed for a relay or divisional slot, who is to say she would have lowered her time if she had swum it at one of the meets she didn’t swim it at. What should never happen though is some kid that is say 3rd on the ladder getting passed over not because they are needed to swim a different stroke but because the 4th kid is the rep’s kid.

Sure, but if larla had the slot and then couldn’t defend it at the final meet before the relay or divisionals, that would really suck for her.

I’ve also seen a team rep’s kid get preferential treatment. At least everyone else can see it when the data is public.

The final meet before the relay carnival or divisionals would typically be a B meet, so she would have the chance to "defend" her slot even if she didn't swim back at the A meet.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Agree. At our pool I have never seen a line up that didn’t have the fastest kids swimming events.

The only time this doesn't happen is when you have an swimmer in a younger age group (usually the 8U) who is 100% legal in all strokes (and by association usually a very good freestyler) and they need that kid to swim all the other strokes to actually get points/places because there aren't enough other kids in the roster who are 100% legal. Then because of MCSL 3 event max even though the kid might be one of the top 6 freestyle they won't swim that. Beyond that, yes, 100% fastest kids.

Hmmm. We are in NVSL so we swim 2 events at A meets. If you have a kid who is top 1-3 in all four events, sometimes they’ll move that kid around to swim their lower ranked events based on seed times from the other team. It SHOULD be done to maximize team points, but it can lead to questions. This is why transparency is best—parents can see why their kid isn’t swimming in their best events, and coaches and reps have an incentive to stay honest.

For example: Larla swims to the top spots in free and back, but is second in breast and third in fly. Her coach might put her in free and fly if the back times from the other team are slow, and her fly time might score an extra point for the team. It gets dicey if Larla’s time is close to her competition in back and she gets edged out of a relay or divisional slot because she didn’t get to swim it at that meet.

Basically, it’s best for coaches and reps to treat people like adults and not try to hide anything—they may have to explain things but that’s part of the job.

These are the types of machinations I don’t have a problem with for summer swim since it’s a team competition based on points. If Larla’s individual back time was close but not better than the time needed for a relay or divisional slot, who is to say she would have lowered her time if she had swum it at one of the meets she didn’t swim it at. What should never happen though is some kid that is say 3rd on the ladder getting passed over not because they are needed to swim a different stroke but because the 4th kid is the rep’s kid.

Sure, but if larla had the slot and then couldn’t defend it at the final meet before the relay or divisionals, that would really suck for her.

I’ve also seen a team rep’s kid get preferential treatment. At least everyone else can see it when the data is public.

We’ve seen it too. If it was all honest and solely based on time for every team, no one would have an issue with publishing meet sheets with times and ladders. It should be a NVSL rule. But it isn’t so ask yourself why we wouldn’t do something that promotes transparency?

[Anonymous]

The above is true but it is very rare to swim faster at a Monday meet than a Saturday meet. The Saturday meets tend to have better competition and a higher level of energy etc.

That being said the whole point of Saturday meets is that it is a team competition so if swimming your third best event helps get the team points then that is what you swim

[Anonymous]

Our team splits the difference and publishes the top 8 on the ladder. It would be very rare for anyone below that spot to end up in an A meet, and you can see from your own child's time how much they have to improve to break into the top 8 or top 5.

By not publishing the whole list what it has done is cut down on some of the nasty in-team comments or hurt feelings. If a kid isn't in the top 8 why do they need the whole world to know whether they're 9th or dead last in the rankings. YMMV but this works for us.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Our team splits the difference and publishes the top 8 on the ladder. It would be very rare for anyone below that spot to end up in an A meet, and you can see from your own child's time how much they have to improve to break into the top 8 or top 5.

By not publishing the whole list what it has done is cut down on some of the nasty in-team comments or hurt feelings. If a kid isn't in the top 8 why do they need the whole world to know whether they're 9th or dead last in the rankings. YMMV but this works for us.

This is a super easy way to address concerns about the feelings of the kids who rank last while also making the selection process for A meets more transparent.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The above is true but it is very rare to swim faster at a Monday meet than a Saturday meet. The Saturday meets tend to have better competition and a higher level of energy etc.

That being said the whole point of Saturday meets is that it is a team competition so if swimming your third best event helps get the team points then that is what you swim

+1, this is what makes summer swim different than club. It’s not about what is personally best for Larla, it’s what gives the team the best chance of winning.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The above is true but it is very rare to swim faster at a Monday meet than a Saturday meet. The Saturday meets tend to have better competition and a higher level of energy etc.

That being said the whole point of Saturday meets is that it is a team competition so if swimming your third best event helps get the team points then that is what you swim

Of course. But coaches and reps also need to be mindful of who is taking the L for the team and spread the pain around. Some races are easier wins than others. It’s demoralizing for a kid to have to eat it consistently and watch slower swimmers rack up points in their best events while they fight for scraps in races they probably can’t win anything in. It definitely happens. Keeping things transparent keeps coaches accountable. I think sharing seed times should be mandatory for this reason.

It’s a lot to consider, and it’s not as simple as “fastest kids swim their fastest events”. It doesn’t always work out that way.

Also, I often see kids drop mad time on Mondays so I don’t know that you’re right on your first point.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Agree. At our pool I have never seen a line up that didn’t have the fastest kids swimming events.

The only time this doesn't happen is when you have an swimmer in a younger age group (usually the 8U) who is 100% legal in all strokes (and by association usually a very good freestyler) and they need that kid to swim all the other strokes to actually get points/places because there aren't enough other kids in the roster who are 100% legal. Then because of MCSL 3 event max even though the kid might be one of the top 6 freestyle they won't swim that. Beyond that, yes, 100% fastest kids.

Hmmm. We are in NVSL so we swim 2 events at A meets. If you have a kid who is top 1-3 in all four events, sometimes they’ll move that kid around to swim their lower ranked events based on seed times from the other team. It SHOULD be done to maximize team points, but it can lead to questions. This is why transparency is best—parents can see why their kid isn’t swimming in their best events, and coaches and reps have an incentive to stay honest.

For example: Larla swims to the top spots in free and back, but is second in breast and third in fly. Her coach might put her in free and fly if the back times from the other team are slow, and her fly time might score an extra point for the team. It gets dicey if Larla’s time is close to her competition in back and she gets edged out of a relay or divisional slot because she didn’t get to swim it at that meet.

Basically, it’s best for coaches and reps to treat people like adults and not try to hide anything—they may have to explain things but that’s part of the job.

These are the types of machinations I don’t have a problem with for summer swim since it’s a team competition based on points. If Larla’s individual back time was close but not better than the time needed for a relay or divisional slot, who is to say she would have lowered her time if she had swum it at one of the meets she didn’t swim it at. What should never happen though is some kid that is say 3rd on the ladder getting passed over not because they are needed to swim a different stroke but because the 4th kid is the rep’s kid.

Sure, but if larla had the slot and then couldn’t defend it at the final meet before the relay or divisionals, that would really suck for her.

I’ve also seen a team rep’s kid get preferential treatment. At least everyone else can see it when the data is public.

The final meet before the relay carnival or divisionals would typically be a B meet, so she would have the chance to "defend" her slot even if she didn't swim back at the A meet.

Not this week! I didn’t have a swimmer in this situation but Monday times didn’t count for seeding the relays. They had to get teams in before that. Also, our last meet before divisionals is an A meet.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The above is true but it is very rare to swim faster at a Monday meet than a Saturday meet. The Saturday meets tend to have better competition and a higher level of energy etc.

That being said the whole point of Saturday meets is that it is a team competition so if swimming your third best event helps get the team points then that is what you swim

Of course. But coaches and reps also need to be mindful of who is taking the L for the team and spread the pain around. Some races are easier wins than others. It’s demoralizing for a kid to have to eat it consistently and watch slower swimmers rack up points in their best events while they fight for scraps in races they probably can’t win anything in. It definitely happens. Keeping things transparent keeps coaches accountable. I think sharing seed times should be mandatory for this reason.

It’s a lot to consider, and it’s not as simple as “fastest kids swim their fastest events”. It doesn’t always work out that way.

Also, I often see kids drop mad time on Mondays so I don’t know that you’re right on your first point.

I don’t agree about the demoralizing part. We are in a different league that allows the kids to swim more strokes at each meet, but this happened to my kid at the last meet and they just rolled with it. My kid is the fastest in all 4 strokes and IM at the low end of the age group, we swam against a team with another club kid that is a year older and who is legitimately elite. My kid came in second every time because they were matched up against the elite kid in all the same events. They took it as a challenge and swam multiple PBs because they rose to the level of the competition. One of my kid’s teammates swam the other events and got 1st place finishes because my kid and the elite kid weren’t in those events. Oh well, it happens. My kid didn’t give a second thought to it, they liked going head to head with the best kid.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The above is true but it is very rare to swim faster at a Monday meet than a Saturday meet. The Saturday meets tend to have better competition and a higher level of energy etc.

That being said the whole point of Saturday meets is that it is a team competition so if swimming your third best event helps get the team points then that is what you swim

Of course. But coaches and reps also need to be mindful of who is taking the L for the team and spread the pain around. Some races are easier wins than others. It’s demoralizing for a kid to have to eat it consistently and watch slower swimmers rack up points in their best events while they fight for scraps in races they probably can’t win anything in. It definitely happens. Keeping things transparent keeps coaches accountable. I think sharing seed times should be mandatory for this reason.

It’s a lot to consider, and it’s not as simple as “fastest kids swim their fastest events”. It doesn’t always work out that way.

Also, I often see kids drop mad time on Mondays so I don’t know that you’re right on your first point.

I don’t agree about the demoralizing part. We are in a different league that allows the kids to swim more strokes at each meet, but this happened to my kid at the last meet and they just rolled with it. My kid is the fastest in all 4 strokes and IM at the low end of the age group, we swam against a team with another club kid that is a year older and who is legitimately elite. My kid came in second every time because they were matched up against the elite kid in all the same events. They took it as a challenge and swam multiple PBs because they rose to the level of the competition. One of my kid’s teammates swam the other events and got 1st place finishes because my kid and the elite kid weren’t in those events. Oh well, it happens. My kid didn’t give a second thought to it, they liked going head to head with the best kid.

Not exactly the situation I’m talking about. Getting second is great when you’re racing in an event that you are number 1 in on your team. Not being allowed to race in the event you’re number one in, so you can lose to the elite swimmer in your number 3 event is more like it. i won’t get into specifics because of privacy concerns but there ARE things that happen that are unfair.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The above is true but it is very rare to swim faster at a Monday meet than a Saturday meet. The Saturday meets tend to have better competition and a higher level of energy etc.

That being said the whole point of Saturday meets is that it is a team competition so if swimming your third best event helps get the team points then that is what you swim

Of course. But coaches and reps also need to be mindful of who is taking the L for the team and spread the pain around. Some races are easier wins than others. It’s demoralizing for a kid to have to eat it consistently and watch slower swimmers rack up points in their best events while they fight for scraps in races they probably can’t win anything in. It definitely happens. Keeping things transparent keeps coaches accountable. I think sharing seed times should be mandatory for this reason.

It’s a lot to consider, and it’s not as simple as “fastest kids swim their fastest events”. It doesn’t always work out that way.

Also, I often see kids drop mad time on Mondays so I don’t know that you’re right on your first point.

I don’t agree about the demoralizing part. We are in a different league that allows the kids to swim more strokes at each meet, but this happened to my kid at the last meet and they just rolled with it. My kid is the fastest in all 4 strokes and IM at the low end of the age group, we swam against a team with another club kid that is a year older and who is legitimately elite. My kid came in second every time because they were matched up against the elite kid in all the same events. They took it as a challenge and swam multiple PBs because they rose to the level of the competition. One of my kid’s teammates swam the other events and got 1st place finishes because my kid and the elite kid weren’t in those events. Oh well, it happens. My kid didn’t give a second thought to it, they liked going head to head with the best kid.

Not exactly the situation I’m talking about. Getting second is great when you’re racing in an event that you are number 1 in on your team. Not being allowed to race in the event you’re number one in, so you can lose to the elite swimmer in your number 3 event is more like it. i won’t get into specifics because of privacy concerns but there ARE things that happen that are unfair.

This feels like such minutiae. If your swimmer is #1 in a stroke that the other team isn’t good at and your #2-4 swimmers can still beat them, you don’t need to use the #1 person. If your swimmer is swimming what is their 3rd best event they are probably still better at it than their teammates and therefore they have a better chance at earning points for the team in that event even if they won’t place 1st. My kid does a bunch of fly in the summer even though they hate it because they are better than their teammates at it. Those are the breaks of team summer swim. The club kids have all club season to focus on events that are their individual strengths.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The above is true but it is very rare to swim faster at a Monday meet than a Saturday meet. The Saturday meets tend to have better competition and a higher level of energy etc.

That being said the whole point of Saturday meets is that it is a team competition so if swimming your third best event helps get the team points then that is what you swim

Of course. But coaches and reps also need to be mindful of who is taking the L for the team and spread the pain around. Some races are easier wins than others. It’s demoralizing for a kid to have to eat it consistently and watch slower swimmers rack up points in their best events while they fight for scraps in races they probably can’t win anything in. It definitely happens. Keeping things transparent keeps coaches accountable. I think sharing seed times should be mandatory for this reason.

It’s a lot to consider, and it’s not as simple as “fastest kids swim their fastest events”. It doesn’t always work out that way.

Also, I often see kids drop mad time on Mondays so I don’t know that you’re right on your first point.

I don’t agree about the demoralizing part. We are in a different league that allows the kids to swim more strokes at each meet, but this happened to my kid at the last meet and they just rolled with it. My kid is the fastest in all 4 strokes and IM at the low end of the age group, we swam against a team with another club kid that is a year older and who is legitimately elite. My kid came in second every time because they were matched up against the elite kid in all the same events. They took it as a challenge and swam multiple PBs because they rose to the level of the competition. One of my kid’s teammates swam the other events and got 1st place finishes because my kid and the elite kid weren’t in those events. Oh well, it happens. My kid didn’t give a second thought to it, they liked going head to head with the best kid.

Not exactly the situation I’m talking about. Getting second is great when you’re racing in an event that you are number 1 in on your team. Not being allowed to race in the event you’re number one in, so you can lose to the elite swimmer in your number 3 event is more like it. i won’t get into specifics because of privacy concerns but there ARE things that happen that are unfair.

This feels like such minutiae. If your swimmer is #1 in a stroke that the other team isn’t good at and your #2-4 swimmers can still beat them, you don’t need to use the #1 person. If your swimmer is swimming what is their 3rd best event they are probably still better at it than their teammates and therefore they have a better chance at earning points for the team in that event even if they won’t place 1st. My kid does a bunch of fly in the summer even though they hate it because they are better than their teammates at it. Those are the breaks of team summer swim. The club kids have all club season to focus on events that are their individual strengths.

This happens to my kid too. I welcome it because I want him to be a well-rounded swimmer and a good teammate. I'd much rather see him developing in those areas than cruising to a win by 5 seconds in his best event.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The above is true but it is very rare to swim faster at a Monday meet than a Saturday meet. The Saturday meets tend to have better competition and a higher level of energy etc.

That being said the whole point of Saturday meets is that it is a team competition so if swimming your third best event helps get the team points then that is what you swim

+1, this is what makes summer swim different than club. It’s not about what is personally best for Larla, it’s what gives the team the best chance of winning.

We all know that and I don’t think anyone is arguing for transparency in order to get what is best for their kids. Heck, my strong yr round swimmer gets stuck in breast every time even though she hates it but she has the #1 spot in all strokes so they put her where she is needed. We are talking about transparency since not all teams use current yr best times to seed a meet.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The above is true but it is very rare to swim faster at a Monday meet than a Saturday meet. The Saturday meets tend to have better competition and a higher level of energy etc.

That being said the whole point of Saturday meets is that it is a team competition so if swimming your third best event helps get the team points then that is what you swim

+1, this is what makes summer swim different than club. It’s not about what is personally best for Larla, it’s what gives the team the best chance of winning.

We all know that and I don’t think anyone is arguing for transparency in order to get what is best for their kids. Heck, my strong yr round swimmer gets stuck in breast every time even though she hates it but she has the #1 spot in all strokes so they put her where she is needed. We are talking about transparency since not all teams use current yr best times to seed a meet.

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