How to choose events for summer dual meets？

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid actually gets sacrificed sometimes bc I am the team rep in the sense the coach knows mine will be team a team player if needed for a least favorite event. Most of us don’t do this to gain advantage.

I’m sure you don’t, but there is the issue of bias, as illustrated by a prior poster who claims coaches favor certain kids based on who’s parents are perceived to be working hardest for the team.

Regardless, how does such a “sacrifice” actually happen if the point is to seed meets for the highest point total possible. If that’s the principle, more often than not, the fastest swimmers in a stroke swim it, unless they aren’t needed there and can win extra points for the team somewhere else that no one else can. Totally normal in that case.

This happens to my kid bc they are fastest in all and can’t swim all so they swim the strokes they can score most points in but not the strokes they would be ranked higher in individually.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid actually gets sacrificed sometimes bc I am the team rep in the sense the coach knows mine will be team a team player if needed for a least favorite event. Most of us don’t do this to gain advantage.

I’m sure you don’t, but there is the issue of bias, as illustrated by a prior poster who claims coaches favor certain kids based on who’s parents are perceived to be working hardest for the team.

Regardless, how does such a “sacrifice” actually happen if the point is to seed meets for the highest point total possible. If that’s the principle, more often than not, the fastest swimmers in a stroke swim it, unless they aren’t needed there and can win extra points for the team somewhere else that no one else can. Totally normal in that case.

This happens to my kid bc they are fastest in all and can’t swim all so they swim the strokes they can score most points in but not the strokes they would be ranked higher in individually.

They are fastest in all strokes on their team. So they are not being sacrificed at all. They have the best odds for the points in any race! Now, they might have to swim a tougher race against a team with a higher ranked swimmer but that’s not a sacrifice. That’s competition.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is weird. And people that are saying “parents ask too many questions” are sus IMO.

I agree. Circa 2018 we had different coaching staff that didn’t circulate a ladder or meet results and with a new 8U I had no idea that results for A meets were posted online. Therefore when my kid beat 35 other kids in freestyle at a B meet I had no idea they should swim in the next A meet. A couple years later I saw the results in historical data in the new app. They were seeded 3rd fastest in free and never got picked for an A meet.

Fortunately everything is transparent now.

That’s terrible.

And also fiction. Coaches want to win. They swim the fastest kid.

Sure. Good coaches do this.

I know for a fact our coach has seeded meets in ways that were likely to yield fewer team points, in order to favor certain kids—these were not just honest mistakes.

It was a major disappointment to learn about it after sacrificing so many of our kids summers to the team. We thought it was all about clean competition. It’s not.

To young parents reading this—it is a HUGE red flag if your coach won’t share seed times and discuss meet strategy with you. Your coach should want to talk with you and your kids if you have questions. The shouldn’t act like the Wizard of Oz.

NVSL should nip this crap in the bud. Make teams provide the meet sheet with seed times. Only the most involved parents are going to look into it themselves without that, and those parents are probably the ones with kids benefiting from the secrecy.

It is NVSL policy to not give out seed times. Look at page 61 of the rule book under ‘recommended procedures for meets’. Obviously, this is a ‘recommendation’ but it is literally in the rule book. I don’t agree with the policy but you really shouldn’t fault coaches or reps from following it.
https://www.mynvsl.com/handbook.pdf

I mean, something cannot be considered both just “recommended” and a policy. If it’s not an actual policy (and it’s not for NVSL) people should push their individual teams on this issue. It’s patently absurd that seed times are not published in a timed sport in which people are seeded based on their times. There is also no reason that full meet results, including the B meets, are not circulated to everyone. Once 1 team stops following this stupid recommendation others will follow suit.

I mean lobby on this how you wish, but not including the seed times is in both the procedures for meets and also in the training for data coordinators. While arguably a pool could depart from it I seriously doubt any will unless NVSL changes the procedures and training.

Didn’t someone upthread say the data person has a version with the seed times, they just don’t want to push that version out to the team?

Yes. The have the seed times on the meet sheet for the team reps. It’s a choice not to give parents that same information. And it’s a choice that keeps parents and athletes in the dark unless they are very motivated to figure things out themselves by looking up times on the NVSL site. I don’t like that.

Its not exactly a choice. I am the team data person. I would vastly prefer to give out the meet sheets with seed times- I think it is a frustrating and stupid policy not to. HOWEVER- it is literally in NVSL guidance. For example here https://www.mynvsl.com/file/30139/2018_Team_Data_Functions_pdf here is the relevant excerpt Print the Final Meet Sheet and make copies
i. Use the two column format. Include team records and All Star cut
standards if desired. Do not include seed times. Make enough
copies for all officials, coaches, team reps, table workers, etc.
ii. If your team sells meet sheets (and they should), use the two
column format and agree to the number of copies with the Team
Rep or Concessions Manage

So when I refuse to give out the version with seed times- I'm simply following the instructions from the NVSL. Is it a 'rule'? no- but does every single team do it this way? yes. I'm a volunteer- data already takes a ton of time. I'm not about to add another task by trying to convince other data people and teams to agree to ignore NVSL guidance and give out seed times. Get NVSL to change the guidelines- then I am all on board.

I would like NVSL to do this, yes. I don’t expect the team data manager to confront reps and coaches over it. I think people have raised really good points about why it would be a good thing to change.

i would think a rep could propose this as a rule change. Someone who is actually a rep may want to chime in on the process and how much of a pain it is. I would think anyone wanting to ask their rep to submit the change request should do the heavy lifting already - i.e write up the rationale for the change.

From the handbook: “Rule changes shall include a discussion of the rationale and merits for the change.”

Cool. It’s not a rule change as much as it’s a change in the guidance though. I bet NVSL could just do it if they wanted to.

But the rationale is easy: transparency is needed to promote fairness and accountability, particularly given the effort the sport is making to identify barriers that may lead to under representation of certain groups in swimming.

Yes, please! Support this transparency! How do we get NVSL to change this guidance?

I think writing up the reasons: transparency, fair play, counter acting unconscious or conscious bias, etc. in a short petition would be the place to start, and then ask your team rep to submit it to NVSL. I know coaches won’t be happy about it, but I’m this day and age with safe sport and all the rest, it’s ludicrous to think you don’t need to be transparent.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid actually gets sacrificed sometimes bc I am the team rep in the sense the coach knows mine will be team a team player if needed for a least favorite event. Most of us don’t do this to gain advantage.

I’m sure you don’t, but there is the issue of bias, as illustrated by a prior poster who claims coaches favor certain kids based on who’s parents are perceived to be working hardest for the team.

Regardless, how does such a “sacrifice” actually happen if the point is to seed meets for the highest point total possible. If that’s the principle, more often than not, the fastest swimmers in a stroke swim it, unless they aren’t needed there and can win extra points for the team somewhere else that no one else can. Totally normal in that case.

This happens to my kid bc they are fastest in all and can’t swim all so they swim the strokes they can score most points in but not the strokes they would be ranked higher in individually.

They are fastest in all strokes on their team. So they are not being sacrificed at all. They have the best odds for the points in any race! Now, they might have to swim a tougher race against a team with a higher ranked swimmer but that’s not a sacrifice. That’s competition.

+1. My young 11 year old club swimmer swam against a new 13 year old club swimmer in every event last meet, they competed hard and it didn’t cross their mind to complain that they should have swam in the event the other kid wasn’t in.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is weird. And people that are saying “parents ask too many questions” are sus IMO.

I agree. Circa 2018 we had different coaching staff that didn’t circulate a ladder or meet results and with a new 8U I had no idea that results for A meets were posted online. Therefore when my kid beat 35 other kids in freestyle at a B meet I had no idea they should swim in the next A meet. A couple years later I saw the results in historical data in the new app. They were seeded 3rd fastest in free and never got picked for an A meet.

Fortunately everything is transparent now.

That’s terrible.

And also fiction. Coaches want to win. They swim the fastest kid.

Sure. Good coaches do this.

I know for a fact our coach has seeded meets in ways that were likely to yield fewer team points, in order to favor certain kids—these were not just honest mistakes.

It was a major disappointment to learn about it after sacrificing so many of our kids summers to the team. We thought it was all about clean competition. It’s not.

To young parents reading this—it is a HUGE red flag if your coach won’t share seed times and discuss meet strategy with you. Your coach should want to talk with you and your kids if you have questions. The shouldn’t act like the Wizard of Oz.

NVSL should nip this crap in the bud. Make teams provide the meet sheet with seed times. Only the most involved parents are going to look into it themselves without that, and those parents are probably the ones with kids benefiting from the secrecy.

It is NVSL policy to not give out seed times. Look at page 61 of the rule book under ‘recommended procedures for meets’. Obviously, this is a ‘recommendation’ but it is literally in the rule book. I don’t agree with the policy but you really shouldn’t fault coaches or reps from following it.
https://www.mynvsl.com/handbook.pdf

I mean, something cannot be considered both just “recommended” and a policy. If it’s not an actual policy (and it’s not for NVSL) people should push their individual teams on this issue. It’s patently absurd that seed times are not published in a timed sport in which people are seeded based on their times. There is also no reason that full meet results, including the B meets, are not circulated to everyone. Once 1 team stops following this stupid recommendation others will follow suit.

I mean lobby on this how you wish, but not including the seed times is in both the procedures for meets and also in the training for data coordinators. While arguably a pool could depart from it I seriously doubt any will unless NVSL changes the procedures and training.

Didn’t someone upthread say the data person has a version with the seed times, they just don’t want to push that version out to the team?

Yes. The have the seed times on the meet sheet for the team reps. It’s a choice not to give parents that same information. And it’s a choice that keeps parents and athletes in the dark unless they are very motivated to figure things out themselves by looking up times on the NVSL site. I don’t like that.

Its not exactly a choice. I am the team data person. I would vastly prefer to give out the meet sheets with seed times- I think it is a frustrating and stupid policy not to. HOWEVER- it is literally in NVSL guidance. For example here https://www.mynvsl.com/file/30139/2018_Team_Data_Functions_pdf here is the relevant excerpt Print the Final Meet Sheet and make copies
i. Use the two column format. Include team records and All Star cut
standards if desired. Do not include seed times. Make enough
copies for all officials, coaches, team reps, table workers, etc.
ii. If your team sells meet sheets (and they should), use the two
column format and agree to the number of copies with the Team
Rep or Concessions Manage

So when I refuse to give out the version with seed times- I'm simply following the instructions from the NVSL. Is it a 'rule'? no- but does every single team do it this way? yes. I'm a volunteer- data already takes a ton of time. I'm not about to add another task by trying to convince other data people and teams to agree to ignore NVSL guidance and give out seed times. Get NVSL to change the guidelines- then I am all on board.

I would like NVSL to do this, yes. I don’t expect the team data manager to confront reps and coaches over it. I think people have raised really good points about why it would be a good thing to change.

i would think a rep could propose this as a rule change. Someone who is actually a rep may want to chime in on the process and how much of a pain it is. I would think anyone wanting to ask their rep to submit the change request should do the heavy lifting already - i.e write up the rationale for the change.

From the handbook: “Rule changes shall include a discussion of the rationale and merits for the change.”

Cool. It’s not a rule change as much as it’s a change in the guidance though. I bet NVSL could just do it if they wanted to.

But the rationale is easy: transparency is needed to promote fairness and accountability, particularly given the effort the sport is making to identify barriers that may lead to under representation of certain groups in swimming.

Yes, please! Support this transparency! How do we get NVSL to change this guidance?

I think writing up the reasons: transparency, fair play, counter acting unconscious or conscious bias, etc. in a short petition would be the place to start, and then ask your team rep to submit it to NVSL. I know coaches won’t be happy about it, but I’m this day and age with safe sport and all the rest, it’s ludicrous to think you don’t need to be transparent.

And also, with Virginia’s ugly history wrt segregation and private pools—NVSL should think hard about why the current policy exists in the first place. It’s probably been a recommendation not to include seed times on meet sheets since the 70’s. Never a bad idea to review things and think about these things. How many talented swimmers did the league lose because of “reasons”?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is weird. And people that are saying “parents ask too many questions” are sus IMO.

I agree. Circa 2018 we had different coaching staff that didn’t circulate a ladder or meet results and with a new 8U I had no idea that results for A meets were posted online. Therefore when my kid beat 35 other kids in freestyle at a B meet I had no idea they should swim in the next A meet. A couple years later I saw the results in historical data in the new app. They were seeded 3rd fastest in free and never got picked for an A meet.

Fortunately everything is transparent now.

That’s terrible.

And also fiction. Coaches want to win. They swim the fastest kid.

Sure. Good coaches do this.

I know for a fact our coach has seeded meets in ways that were likely to yield fewer team points, in order to favor certain kids—these were not just honest mistakes.

It was a major disappointment to learn about it after sacrificing so many of our kids summers to the team. We thought it was all about clean competition. It’s not.

To young parents reading this—it is a HUGE red flag if your coach won’t share seed times and discuss meet strategy with you. Your coach should want to talk with you and your kids if you have questions. The shouldn’t act like the Wizard of Oz.

NVSL should nip this crap in the bud. Make teams provide the meet sheet with seed times. Only the most involved parents are going to look into it themselves without that, and those parents are probably the ones with kids benefiting from the secrecy.

It is NVSL policy to not give out seed times. Look at page 61 of the rule book under ‘recommended procedures for meets’. Obviously, this is a ‘recommendation’ but it is literally in the rule book. I don’t agree with the policy but you really shouldn’t fault coaches or reps from following it.
https://www.mynvsl.com/handbook.pdf

I mean, something cannot be considered both just “recommended” and a policy. If it’s not an actual policy (and it’s not for NVSL) people should push their individual teams on this issue. It’s patently absurd that seed times are not published in a timed sport in which people are seeded based on their times. There is also no reason that full meet results, including the B meets, are not circulated to everyone. Once 1 team stops following this stupid recommendation others will follow suit.

I mean lobby on this how you wish, but not including the seed times is in both the procedures for meets and also in the training for data coordinators. While arguably a pool could depart from it I seriously doubt any will unless NVSL changes the procedures and training.

Didn’t someone upthread say the data person has a version with the seed times, they just don’t want to push that version out to the team?

Yes. The have the seed times on the meet sheet for the team reps. It’s a choice not to give parents that same information. And it’s a choice that keeps parents and athletes in the dark unless they are very motivated to figure things out themselves by looking up times on the NVSL site. I don’t like that.

Its not exactly a choice. I am the team data person. I would vastly prefer to give out the meet sheets with seed times- I think it is a frustrating and stupid policy not to. HOWEVER- it is literally in NVSL guidance. For example here https://www.mynvsl.com/file/30139/2018_Team_Data_Functions_pdf here is the relevant excerpt Print the Final Meet Sheet and make copies
i. Use the two column format. Include team records and All Star cut
standards if desired. Do not include seed times. Make enough
copies for all officials, coaches, team reps, table workers, etc.
ii. If your team sells meet sheets (and they should), use the two
column format and agree to the number of copies with the Team
Rep or Concessions Manage

So when I refuse to give out the version with seed times- I'm simply following the instructions from the NVSL. Is it a 'rule'? no- but does every single team do it this way? yes. I'm a volunteer- data already takes a ton of time. I'm not about to add another task by trying to convince other data people and teams to agree to ignore NVSL guidance and give out seed times. Get NVSL to change the guidelines- then I am all on board.

I would like NVSL to do this, yes. I don’t expect the team data manager to confront reps and coaches over it. I think people have raised really good points about why it would be a good thing to change.

i would think a rep could propose this as a rule change. Someone who is actually a rep may want to chime in on the process and how much of a pain it is. I would think anyone wanting to ask their rep to submit the change request should do the heavy lifting already - i.e write up the rationale for the change.

From the handbook: “Rule changes shall include a discussion of the rationale and merits for the change.”

Cool. It’s not a rule change as much as it’s a change in the guidance though. I bet NVSL could just do it if they wanted to.

But the rationale is easy: transparency is needed to promote fairness and accountability, particularly given the effort the sport is making to identify barriers that may lead to under representation of certain groups in swimming.

Yes, please! Support this transparency! How do we get NVSL to change this guidance?

I think writing up the reasons: transparency, fair play, counter acting unconscious or conscious bias, etc. in a short petition would be the place to start, and then ask your team rep to submit it to NVSL. I know coaches won’t be happy about it, but I’m this day and age with safe sport and all the rest, it’s ludicrous to think you don’t need to be transparent.

And also, with Virginia’s ugly history wrt segregation and private pools—NVSL should think hard about why the current policy exists in the first place. It’s probably been a recommendation not to include seed times on meet sheets since the 70’s. Never a bad idea to review things and think about these things. How many talented swimmers did the league lose because of “reasons”?

+100