Is Taylor Swift a Genius?

[Anonymous]

Rolling Stone called Taylor Swift one of the all time great songwriters and one of the last true rock stars. I'm not a Taylor Swift stan, but she's at least as good as Springsteen.

https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-lists/taylor-swift-songs-ranked-rob-sheffield-201800/champagne-problems-2020-1245502/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think she is - in the same vein as Tom Petty. If you don’t like her, too bad, because you will be hearing her songs in the background of American life for the rest of your life.

This might be true, but almost none of her songs are as catchy/memorable of most of Petty’s greatest hits. Like name ONE Taylor Swift song that people who are not specifically Taylor Swift fans know all the words to (I can think of any). And then think of American Girl, Free Falling, Wildflowers, Take the Money and Run, etc. etc. I was born in 1980, so kind of young for Tom Petty, and I know all those songs despite never owning an album. I own two Taylor Swift albums and have seen her live and I don’t think I know all the words to any of her songs.

People who think Taylor Swift is a musical genius usually just have limited exposure to other music. It’s like people who think Harry Potter are the best books of all time. They are fine, they have their place, they are popular for a reason. But if you think they are the pinnacle of literature, or even children’s literature, you simply are not well read. The same with Swift.

PP here - Take the Money and Run is Steve Miller.

You belong to me
Shake it off
Anti hero
I knew you were trouble
Blank space
Style
Bad Blood

Seriously? All of these are ear worms.

NP They really aren’t (I’m not even familiar with at least 2-3 of them). And they aren’t songs anyone is going to be talking about forever except Taylor Ssift fans.

You're just too old to be the target audience for Swift's music. You sound like the old folks complaining about Elvis or the Beatles.

This! Even I, at 36, am too old for Taylor Swift. I know the lyrics to a few of her songs semi-well, and the rhythms to more of them fairly well. From the radio. But the songs I know best are from when I watched MTV in high school, and then when I had a job with a long commute between 2012-2016

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think she is - in the same vein as Tom Petty. If you don’t like her, too bad, because you will be hearing her songs in the background of American life for the rest of your life.

This might be true, but almost none of her songs are as catchy/memorable of most of Petty’s greatest hits. Like name ONE Taylor Swift song that people who are not specifically Taylor Swift fans know all the words to (I can think of any). And then think of American Girl, Free Falling, Wildflowers, Take the Money and Run, etc. etc. I was born in 1980, so kind of young for Tom Petty, and I know all those songs despite never owning an album. I own two Taylor Swift albums and have seen her live and I don’t think I know all the words to any of her songs.

People who think Taylor Swift is a musical genius usually just have limited exposure to other music. It’s like people who think Harry Potter are the best books of all time. They are fine, they have their place, they are popular for a reason. But if you think they are the pinnacle of literature, or even children’s literature, you simply are not well read. The same with Swift.

PP here - Take the Money and Run is Steve Miller.

You belong to me
Shake it off
Anti hero
I knew you were trouble
Blank space
Style
Bad Blood

Seriously? All of these are ear worms.

NP They really aren’t (I’m not even familiar with at least 2-3 of them). And they aren’t songs anyone is going to be talking about forever except Taylor Ssift fans.

You're just too old to be the target audience for Swift's music. You sound like the old folks complaining about Elvis or the Beatles.

You’re probably right, since her target audience has always been teenagers who think she’s a genius.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Such snobs on this board. It’s really entertaining all of you trying to out-smug one another.

I'm waiting for them to meet me in the alley and smoke clove cigarettes and we can talk about how banal all the popular music is and see who knows and follows the most obscure band ever. I hear there is one band that is so so good that they only have one fan and its one band member's mom.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Such snobs on this board. It’s really entertaining all of you trying to out-smug one another.

I'm waiting for them to meet me in the alley and smoke clove cigarettes and we can talk about how banal all the popular music is and see who knows and follows the most obscure band ever. I hear there is one band that is so so good that they only have one fan and its one band member's mom.

Imagine considering Katy Perry, Phantogram, or Florence and the Machine "obscure." I bet you Taylor Swift knows who they are and likes their music! I'm sorry you can't branch out beyond one artist who has been spoon fed to you. Genuinely sorry -- you are missing out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No. I really respect what she's done but I don't think she's a genius. I think a significant part of her success is her skill in marketing herself. It's also really unclear to me how much of the actual music she writes. I understand she writes pretty much all her lyrics, and she's a very good lyricist. But it's never been clear to me if she is composing much of this music herself, especially for her bigger hits, which tend to be more heavily produced.

Has it really gotten to the point where a singer who writes her own songs is considered a genius?
And who cares if she writes them? Her song are all mid.

I agree with you. There are songwriters who were geniuses, but Taylor Swift is not among them. As much as her fans make a big deal about her lyrics, it's not what has made her famous and successful -- it's her brand, the production around her, combined with music that doesn't provoke or innovate really at all. She has a nice voice and she does play her own instruments sometimes. But is she hugely different than, say, Katy Perry? More talented or innovative than Janelle Monae? Not really. There's nothing ground breaking about her.

I have no idea what Katy Perry is doing in your post -- she's a terrible songwriter and has no abilities in other areas. I guess she puts on a fun show, which isn't nothing.

The average person would group them together as pop stars who sing about similar subjects and put on similar shows. I actually have more fondness for Katy Perry because her hits are much catchier and I like that she’s less perfect/pretentious. Long live Left Shark.

Does Katy Perry write songs at all?

Yes, she’s written or co-written most of her songs and also written songs for Britney, Iggy Azalea, Selena Gomez and others.

I’m not arguing that Katy Perry is a genius but it’s weird to argue Taylor swift is uniquely talented and that a comparison to Katy Perry is wrong when they have remarkably similar careers in the same genre of music. They are peers.

Oh, right. Katy Perry wrote Roar, which was clearly “inspired” by Sara Bareilles’ Brave. Actually, she co-wrote that. In fact, I’m struggling to find any sounds of hers she wrote by herself and would appreciate a link or something?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No. I really respect what she's done but I don't think she's a genius. I think a significant part of her success is her skill in marketing herself. It's also really unclear to me how much of the actual music she writes. I understand she writes pretty much all her lyrics, and she's a very good lyricist. But it's never been clear to me if she is composing much of this music herself, especially for her bigger hits, which tend to be more heavily produced.

Has it really gotten to the point where a singer who writes her own songs is considered a genius?
And who cares if she writes them? Her song are all mid.

I agree with you. There are songwriters who were geniuses, but Taylor Swift is not among them. As much as her fans make a big deal about her lyrics, it's not what has made her famous and successful -- it's her brand, the production around her, combined with music that doesn't provoke or innovate really at all. She has a nice voice and she does play her own instruments sometimes. But is she hugely different than, say, Katy Perry? More talented or innovative than Janelle Monae? Not really. There's nothing ground breaking about her.

I have no idea what Katy Perry is doing in your post -- she's a terrible songwriter and has no abilities in other areas. I guess she puts on a fun show, which isn't nothing.

The average person would group them together as pop stars who sing about similar subjects and put on similar shows. I actually have more fondness for Katy Perry because her hits are much catchier and I like that she’s less perfect/pretentious. Long live Left Shark.

Does Katy Perry write songs at all?

Yes, she’s written or co-written most of her songs and also written songs for Britney, Iggy Azalea, Selena Gomez and others.

I’m not arguing that Katy Perry is a genius but it’s weird to argue Taylor swift is uniquely talented and that a comparison to Katy Perry is wrong when they have remarkably similar careers in the same genre of music. They are peers.

Oh, right. Katy Perry wrote Roar, which was clearly “inspired” by Sara Bareilles’ Brave. Actually, she co-wrote that. In fact, I’m struggling to find any sounds of hers she wrote by herself and would appreciate a link or something?

A list of songs written or co-written by Katy Perry: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Songs_written_by_Katy_Perry

It is very typical for singer-songwriters to work with co-writers (Taylor also does it on the vast majority of her songs) and often producers are given co-writing credit as well.

I don't understand why you are bashing Katy Perry here. And I don't understand why you'd assume that if the songs co-written by Katy Perry don't count but all the songs co-written by Taylor Swift do count?

I get annoyed with Taylor stans who make a big deal about how she's accomplished her success as a young woman (which I agree is a laudable accomplishment), but then immediately turn around and trash any other female artist who gets compared to Taylor. Why can't Taylor and Perry both be talented, successful artists? Why is comparing Taylor to Katy Perry, a best selling artist with a slew of hits to her name, somehow an insult?

And yet the Taylor stans on this thread want to call OTHERS snobs? Repeat after me: "It's me, hi, I'm the problem, it's me."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think she is - in the same vein as Tom Petty. If you don’t like her, too bad, because you will be hearing her songs in the background of American life for the rest of your life.

This might be true, but almost none of her songs are as catchy/memorable of most of Petty’s greatest hits. Like name ONE Taylor Swift song that people who are not specifically Taylor Swift fans know all the words to (I can think of any). And then think of American Girl, Free Falling, Wildflowers, Take the Money and Run, etc. etc. I was born in 1980, so kind of young for Tom Petty, and I know all those songs despite never owning an album. I own two Taylor Swift albums and have seen her live and I don’t think I know all the words to any of her songs.

People who think Taylor Swift is a musical genius usually just have limited exposure to other music. It’s like people who think Harry Potter are the best books of all time. They are fine, they have their place, they are popular for a reason. But if you think they are the pinnacle of literature, or even children’s literature, you simply are not well read. The same with Swift.

PP here - Take the Money and Run is Steve Miller.

You belong to me
Shake it off
Anti hero
I knew you were trouble
Blank space
Style
Bad Blood

Seriously? All of these are ear worms.

NP They really aren’t (I’m not even familiar with at least 2-3 of them). And they aren’t songs anyone is going to be talking about forever except Taylor Ssift fans.

You're just too old to be the target audience for Swift's music. You sound like the old folks complaining about Elvis or the Beatles.

You’re probably right, since her target audience has always been teenagers who think she’s a genius.

“And you would hide away and find your peace of mind
With some indie record that's much cooler than mine”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think so. I don’t think it matters if you don’t think so. She is the moment. She will be remembered as a genius.

She'll be remembered as a very successful musical artist and performer. She will have legions of fans for life because they loved her at a formative time of their lives. I would even believe people calling her a business genius, but she is not a musical genius.

People are defining “musical genius” differently. She will be remembered as one of the greatest singer-songwriters by many people in the industry and one of the most popular artists ever. Whether that qualifies as musical genius is up to each individual.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think so. I don’t think it matters if you don’t think so. She is the moment. She will be remembered as a genius.

She'll be remembered as a very successful musical artist and performer. She will have legions of fans for life because they loved her at a formative time of their lives. I would even believe people calling her a business genius, but she is not a musical genius.

People are defining “musical genius” differently. She will be remembered as one of the greatest singer-songwriters by many people in the industry and one of the most popular artists ever. Whether that qualifies as musical genius is up to each individual.

“Talking over a football game
With that same big mouth opinion
But nobody is listening
Washed up and ranting about
The same old bitter things
Drunk and grumbling on about
How i cant sing
But all you are is mean
All you are is mean
And a liar
And pathetic
And alone in life
And mean“

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think she is - in the same vein as Tom Petty. If you don’t like her, too bad, because you will be hearing her songs in the background of American life for the rest of your life.

This might be true, but almost none of her songs are as catchy/memorable of most of Petty’s greatest hits. Like name ONE Taylor Swift song that people who are not specifically Taylor Swift fans know all the words to (I can think of any). And then think of American Girl, Free Falling, Wildflowers, Take the Money and Run, etc. etc. I was born in 1980, so kind of young for Tom Petty, and I know all those songs despite never owning an album. I own two Taylor Swift albums and have seen her live and I don’t think I know all the words to any of her songs.

People who think Taylor Swift is a musical genius usually just have limited exposure to other music. It’s like people who think Harry Potter are the best books of all time. They are fine, they have their place, they are popular for a reason. But if you think they are the pinnacle of literature, or even children’s literature, you simply are not well read. The same with Swift.

80s/90s radio is so different from today. We all listened to the same songs back then but have unlimited choices now. It’s not surprising that her radio singles don’t have the same popularity as Madonna or Michael Jackson 30-40 years ago. What is amazing is that she can sell out stadiums despite that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think so. I don’t think it matters if you don’t think so. She is the moment. She will be remembered as a genius.

She'll be remembered as a very successful musical artist and performer. She will have legions of fans for life because they loved her at a formative time of their lives. I would even believe people calling her a business genius, but she is not a musical genius.

People are defining “musical genius” differently. She will be remembered as one of the greatest singer-songwriters by many people in the industry and one of the most popular artists ever. Whether that qualifies as musical genius is up to each individual.

“Talking over a football game
With that same big mouth opinion
But nobody is listening
Washed up and ranting about
The same old bitter things
Drunk and grumbling on about
How i cant sing
But all you are is mean
All you are is mean
And a liar
And pathetic
And alone in life
And mean“

Yeah she’s one of the greatest singer-songwriters. Riveting lyrics. True talent.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think so. I don’t think it matters if you don’t think so. She is the moment. She will be remembered as a genius.

She'll be remembered as a very successful musical artist and performer. She will have legions of fans for life because they loved her at a formative time of their lives. I would even believe people calling her a business genius, but she is not a musical genius.

People are defining “musical genius” differently. She will be remembered as one of the greatest singer-songwriters by many people in the industry and one of the most popular artists ever. Whether that qualifies as musical genius is up to each individual.

“Talking over a football game
With that same big mouth opinion
But nobody is listening
Washed up and ranting about
The same old bitter things
Drunk and grumbling on about
How i cant sing
But all you are is mean
All you are is mean
And a liar
And pathetic
And alone in life
And mean“

Yeah she’s one of the greatest singer-songwriters. Riveting lyrics. True talent.

So many of her songs are like this. More than half. It’s one of the ways that being prolific works against her.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No. I really respect what she's done but I don't think she's a genius. I think a significant part of her success is her skill in marketing herself. It's also really unclear to me how much of the actual music she writes. I understand she writes pretty much all her lyrics, and she's a very good lyricist. But it's never been clear to me if she is composing much of this music herself, especially for her bigger hits, which tend to be more heavily produced.

Has it really gotten to the point where a singer who writes her own songs is considered a genius?
And who cares if she writes them? Her song are all mid.

I agree with you. There are songwriters who were geniuses, but Taylor Swift is not among them. As much as her fans make a big deal about her lyrics, it's not what has made her famous and successful -- it's her brand, the production around her, combined with music that doesn't provoke or innovate really at all. She has a nice voice and she does play her own instruments sometimes. But is she hugely different than, say, Katy Perry? More talented or innovative than Janelle Monae? Not really. There's nothing ground breaking about her.

I have no idea what Katy Perry is doing in your post -- she's a terrible songwriter and has no abilities in other areas. I guess she puts on a fun show, which isn't nothing.

The average person would group them together as pop stars who sing about similar subjects and put on similar shows. I actually have more fondness for Katy Perry because her hits are much catchier and I like that she’s less perfect/pretentious. Long live Left Shark.

Does Katy Perry write songs at all?

Yes, she’s written or co-written most of her songs and also written songs for Britney, Iggy Azalea, Selena Gomez and others.

I’m not arguing that Katy Perry is a genius but it’s weird to argue Taylor swift is uniquely talented and that a comparison to Katy Perry is wrong when they have remarkably similar careers in the same genre of music. They are peers.

Oh, right. Katy Perry wrote Roar, which was clearly “inspired” by Sara Bareilles’ Brave. Actually, she co-wrote that. In fact, I’m struggling to find any sounds of hers she wrote by herself and would appreciate a link or something?

A list of songs written or co-written by Katy Perry: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Songs_written_by_Katy_Perry

It is very typical for singer-songwriters to work with co-writers (Taylor also does it on the vast majority of her songs) and often producers are given co-writing credit as well.

I don't understand why you are bashing Katy Perry here. And I don't understand why you'd assume that if the songs co-written by Katy Perry don't count but all the songs co-written by Taylor Swift do count?

I get annoyed with Taylor stans who make a big deal about how she's accomplished her success as a young woman (which I agree is a laudable accomplishment), but then immediately turn around and trash any other female artist who gets compared to Taylor. Why can't Taylor and Perry both be talented, successful artists? Why is comparing Taylor to Katy Perry, a best selling artist with a slew of hits to her name, somehow an insult?

And yet the Taylor stans on this thread want to call OTHERS snobs? Repeat after me: "It's me, hi, I'm the problem, it's me."

Yeah, thanks, I had found that list. Every single one I clicked on was co-writing, usually with a few other people. I was looking for solo songwriting efforts, of which Taylor has dozens. To me, that is a huge difference.

[Anonymous]

I'm a GenXer, so I'm not someone who grew up listening to her music. However, I went on a trip to Napa Valley once. I could not stop playing her song, "Style."' I just loved it! I don't know if all of her music is like that, but that song is very good. It sticks with you.