Is Taylor Swift a Genius?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I do think she is immensely talented as a songwriter, but it reflects the very narrow life experience of someone who became famous as a young teenager and has lived a curated, sheltered existence. For those who say she hasn't stagnated, part of that is her early success has afforded her the kind of creative partnerships and production that prevents this from happening, and I'm not convinced how much of that is self-motivated. Watching Miss Americana confirmed this for me. She's a huge brand and has competing voices trying to figure out her next steps, and sometimes her actual songwriting is the least of it.

Ca you give an example of someone who found success later and wrote the sort of song Taylor couldn't (because of her limited life experience because of her early success)?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Taylor has written the same song over and over again.

Which song? The one about people dying of cancer? The one about Romantic poets? The one about being screwed over by the guy who purchased your catalog? The one about the women who went before her and carved their own path?

I don't care whether people like Taylor, I certainly don't expect them to find each of her songs a precious gem, but I am really sick of people who heard one or two songs ten years ago and have decided they get to write off all of her songs as being the same.

Katy Perry < Taylor Swift < Phoebe Bridgers

You clearly care and are taking it personal. Like others have said, it’s similar songs with different packaging. Honestly, the worst thing about Taylor Swift are her fans. They think she is a genius, which she isn’t.

No, I'm taking it analytically, looking at the reactions to Taylor through a lens of systemic misogyny. I do think there's a lot of "it's not the band, it's the fans" behind some of the negative reactions, but a lot of the criticism of her songwriting isn't based in the reality what she's been writing about in the past 10 years. She's written some really good lyrics and she seems both smart and savvy (although not a genius, and certainly not a genius for not getting into crypto -- WTF, PPs?)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I do think she is immensely talented as a songwriter, but it reflects the very narrow life experience of someone who became famous as a young teenager and has lived a curated, sheltered existence. For those who say she hasn't stagnated, part of that is her early success has afforded her the kind of creative partnerships and production that prevents this from happening, and I'm not convinced how much of that is self-motivated. Watching Miss Americana confirmed this for me. She's a huge brand and has competing voices trying to figure out her next steps, and sometimes her actual songwriting is the least of it.

Ca you give an example of someone who found success later and wrote the sort of song Taylor couldn't (because of her limited life experience because of her early success)?

I'm sure I will be told my taste in music is snobby, but okay:

Chaise Longue is a song by Wet Leg that is about sex and double entendre and also being young and horny. It's also funny as hell, in addition to having a killer hook. I have a hard time imagining Taylor writing something that funny, tongue in cheek, or "adult".

Avant Gardener is a song by Courtney Barnett about the challenge of living through the mundanities of life, of trying to grow something beautiful in the midst of ugly things, about feeling judged by others and wanting to just live your life.

These songs are catchy, relatable, and complex, with interesting lyrics and great melodies. But they reflect complicated lives and complicated thoughts. They aren't just about "oh no I'm sad about my love life" or "gosh, I'm mad that people criticize me." They demonstrate a level of humor or self-reflection that is just more sophisticated and interesting than most of what Taylor writes. I'm not criticizing all her music, I like some of it and I think some of her songs do reach this level. But I think she's run out of runway on some of the ideas and themes she's been exploring for the better part of two decades now, and she needs to go have some other experiences, living in less of a bubble than she currently lives, because I find her work is starting to get stale thematically. I also think taking a break could shake something loose artistically, too -- I think she's churned out a lot of music in this country-pop-indie cross-over vein but has stagnated on her sound and needs to shake it up.

If Taylor took a break, had some personal and artistic breakthroughs, and then came back and wrote something new and surprising that was still, unquestionably, her, I'd be willing to entertain the idea that she's an artistic genius. Right now I think she's just a talented and successful pop star, but not a genius, and definitely not a songwriting genius, despite her prolific output.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think she is a once-in-a-generation singer-songwriter talent. She is underrated because she is a woman and her fan base is young women. If she was a man, well, she’d be the man.

I think she is massively overrated and could never understand all the hype about her.

Agreed.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I find it fascinating that Swift fans on this thread have compared her to: Paul McCartney, Tom Petty, Bruce Springsteen.

But when compared to Katy Perry or Lady Gaga (actual contemporaries) they get angry at the comparison. Beyonce is invoked and immediately insulted. Other contemporary singer songwriters like St. Vincent or Lana Del Ray are ignored or considered "obscure" or "snobby".

Not one person has mentioned Joni Mitchell, Carly Simon. I think Dolly Parton was mentioned once.

Just an observation. There is some weird stuff going on with wanting Taylor to be a singular women among male "geniuses" but a refusal to place her within a pantheon of incredibly talented female performers and songwriters. It's... curious to me.

You are incorrect. Someone compared her to Dolly back on page 2, and absolutely no one said it wasn’t a fair comparison. Also happy to compare her to other women who are songwriters, including Gaga and any other women who actually write their own songs. Co-writing in a a committee of 4 or 5 people, which is what Katy Perry does, is most definitely not comparable. But it’s funny you think people are getting angry about it. So far as I can tell this but a just a discussion, and anyone reading emotion into it might be too emotionally invested themselves. As for the main question, everyone has a different definition of genius, so the whole debate is useless.

I don’t think she’s comparable to Dolly or Gaga. They have actual talent.

Of course she is. I know, only your musical taste counts. Wouldn’t it be nice if you didn’t feel the need to denigrate someone just because their music is not your cup of tea?

Of course she isn’t. You have your opinion and I have mine.

Again, just because you don’t like her doesn’t mean she isn’t a good and prolific songwriter, possibly even a great songwriter. I’m not a particularly fan of hers, but I don’t think it diminishes me or the artists I prefer to acknowledge her talent.

And just because you clearly like her and think she’s a good and possibly great songwriter doesn’t mean everyone agrees. I don’t think she’s a good songwriter. I don’t think she is an impressive talent. I think she is popular in the same way the show Friends was popular. Easy, simple, relatable.

Stay mad.

Wow. You really are obtuse. I clearly said I’m not a fan. But the fact that I don’t much for her music doesn’t mean I cannot recognize that she has talent. Moreover - and this is the part you don’t seem to get - I am not the final arbiter of her son catalogue. And neither are you. You don’t like her, fine. But you don’t need to pretend that you know so much more about what music should be that you can pretend to be the final authority. What egotism.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Taylor has written the same song over and over again.

Which song? The one about people dying of cancer? The one about Romantic poets? The one about being screwed over by the guy who purchased your catalog? The one about the women who went before her and carved their own path?

I don't care whether people like Taylor, I certainly don't expect them to find each of her songs a precious gem, but I am really sick of people who heard one or two songs ten years ago and have decided they get to write off all of her songs as being the same.

Katy Perry < Taylor Swift < Phoebe Bridgers

You clearly care and are taking it personal. Like others have said, it’s similar songs with different packaging. Honestly, the worst thing about Taylor Swift are her fans. They think she is a genius, which she isn’t.

THIS. you say one negative thing about Taylor and the fans act like you are committing homicide. .

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I do think she is immensely talented as a songwriter, but it reflects the very narrow life experience of someone who became famous as a young teenager and has lived a curated, sheltered existence. For those who say she hasn't stagnated, part of that is her early success has afforded her the kind of creative partnerships and production that prevents this from happening, and I'm not convinced how much of that is self-motivated. Watching Miss Americana confirmed this for me. She's a huge brand and has competing voices trying to figure out her next steps, and sometimes her actual songwriting is the least of it.

I think you’re right about all of this. Getting so famous so young is stunting (something she admitted to in Miss Americana btw) and she hasn’t done much to overcome it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I find it fascinating that Swift fans on this thread have compared her to: Paul McCartney, Tom Petty, Bruce Springsteen.

But when compared to Katy Perry or Lady Gaga (actual contemporaries) they get angry at the comparison. Beyonce is invoked and immediately insulted. Other contemporary singer songwriters like St. Vincent or Lana Del Ray are ignored or considered "obscure" or "snobby".

Not one person has mentioned Joni Mitchell, Carly Simon. I think Dolly Parton was mentioned once.

Just an observation. There is some weird stuff going on with wanting Taylor to be a singular women among male "geniuses" but a refusal to place her within a pantheon of incredibly talented female performers and songwriters. It's... curious to me.

You are incorrect. Someone compared her to Dolly back on page 2, and absolutely no one said it wasn’t a fair comparison. Also happy to compare her to other women who are songwriters, including Gaga and any other women who actually write their own songs. Co-writing in a a committee of 4 or 5 people, which is what Katy Perry does, is most definitely not comparable. But it’s funny you think people are getting angry about it. So far as I can tell this but a just a discussion, and anyone reading emotion into it might be too emotionally invested themselves. As for the main question, everyone has a different definition of genius, so the whole debate is useless.

I don’t think she’s comparable to Dolly or Gaga. They have actual talent.

Of course she is. I know, only your musical taste counts. Wouldn’t it be nice if you didn’t feel the need to denigrate someone just because their music is not your cup of tea?

Of course she isn’t. You have your opinion and I have mine.

Again, just because you don’t like her doesn’t mean she isn’t a good and prolific songwriter, possibly even a great songwriter. I’m not a particularly fan of hers, but I don’t think it diminishes me or the artists I prefer to acknowledge her talent.

And just because you clearly like her and think she’s a good and possibly great songwriter doesn’t mean everyone agrees. I don’t think she’s a good songwriter. I don’t think she is an impressive talent. I think she is popular in the same way the show Friends was popular. Easy, simple, relatable.

Stay mad.

Wow. You really are obtuse. I clearly said I’m not a fan. But the fact that I don’t much for her music doesn’t mean I cannot recognize that she has talent. Moreover - and this is the part you don’t seem to get - I am not the final arbiter of her son catalogue. And neither are you. You don’t like her, fine. But you don’t need to pretend that you know so much more about what music should be that you can pretend to be the final authority. What egotism.

Never once said I was the final arbiter or final authority on Taylor Swift. Now I get this has been difficult for you, so let me state it again and you can read it slower…I have a different opinion of her than you do. I don’t think she’s a good songwriter. I don’t think she’s an impressive talent.

Continue staying mad.

[Anonymous]

I think she’s grown immensely. I was not a fan of her country songs pre-1989 but love her subsequent work - especially folklore and evergreen. It’s been funny reading that actors like Ben Stiller and Ethan Hawke have discovered her through their daughters and are now “Swifties” themselves, because I had the same experience (I love all kinds of music but mostly listen to alternative, R&B and Motown). My daughter went to the 1989 concert and I opted out - my DH went with her instead because I had the same opinion of her back then as many PPs, but I really love her now (and am kicking myself for skipping the concert).

[Anonymous]

I also find her completely fascinating - just the phenomenon of her celebrity and fandom.

NYU actually has a Taylor Swift course - they study her songwriting, etc. and obviously consider her a musical genius. The music critics almost universally praise her work.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I also find her completely fascinating - just the phenomenon of her celebrity and fandom.

NYU actually has a Taylor Swift course - they study her songwriting, etc. and obviously consider her a musical genius. The music critics almost universally praise her work.

^^ but that doesn’t cause me to quibble with PPs who think she is overrated - that’s not a crazy notion at all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I also find her completely fascinating - just the phenomenon of her celebrity and fandom.

NYU actually has a Taylor Swift course - they study her songwriting, etc. and obviously consider her a musical genius. The music critics almost universally praise her work.

Colleges offer lots of courses about people they don't consider geniuses.

Why does it matter if she's a genius? She's talented. She's a lot more talented than some of her contemporaries and less talented than others.

(Now I shall wait for the chorus of people who think that if you say she's talented, you obviously worship her)