Who are the kids that get into TJ from the lower ranking middle schools?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have a child at poorly performing MS which, prior to the admission policy change, typically did not have any students admitted to TJ. DC is truly a brilliant and hardworking kid - the top student in honors geometry (near perfect average), acing the rest of their all honors courses, all advanced pass or perfect SOL scores, etc. DC is white and we do not qualify for free/reduced priced meals.

I'm curious to know what the admittance pool looks like at a school like ours? Do we have a shot or are the spots typically offered to high performing students with one or more "experience factors"?

I hope to keep the conversation civil and am genuinely asking out of curiosity. TIA!

One from ours was such an outlier. Real genius even. Don't think they would've stood a chance with the old system though since their family is low-income and wouldn't even consider prep classes that were required to be competitive then.

Prep was never necessary. My two kids and many others did no prep. Stop with those lies.

OP, your kid should do well coming from a low performing school. It’s the kids like yours at high performing schools that are getting rejected.

It is not a lie that kids prepped. Prep programs posted the names of kids who were accepted into TJ and similar schools. And they posted them for many years, you used to be able to look at the roster for many years back.

Were there kids who were accepted who did not prep? Yes. Was there a large percentage of kids who did prep? Yes. By the time they were dropping the Quant test, there were more kids who had participated in prep programs then had not.

The reality is that parents who are very invested in their kids attending TJ will look at what seems to work and replicate that. Prep worked, so you saw that practice grow. The prep now is shifting from the Quant test and to essay prep, people are discussing it and the prep programs, like Currie, are more focused on the writing portion in their write ups. If moving schools seems to work I would guess that you will see more families do that. If you can afford the cost of the prep programs, and they do run in the 10,000-20,000 range for 7th and 8th grade, then you can rent a cheap apartment and drive your kid to school for a year or two.

The kids whose parents are looking to game the system are not the majority of the school but they are a significant percentage of the school. I am sure it sucks for the kids who didn’t go to the prep schools or look to game the system but it doesn’t change the fact that it did happen and is continuing to happen today.

You said prep was “required.” It was not. Choose your words more carefully rather than buying into the TJ bashing.

I did not post that prep was required. This is an anonymous board, people with different opinions are going to post and quote posts. Don't assume that you are talking to the same person because you are not.

There are kids who prepped and there are kids who did not. There seem to be folks on both side of the debate that are 100% stuck on one particular line and unable to see the middle ground. There are a few posters who keep screaming that every kid prepped, and that is BS. There are a few posters who claim no one prepped and that there was no cheating on the Quant test, and that is BS. There is plenty of evidence that there are kids who prepped, and that the number of prepped kids increased as people saw that it worked, and that there are prep schools that had test banks that provided an advantage to kids who attended the prep programs. There are also kids who were accepted into TJ who did not attend those prep programs and who did not have advanced access to the tests.

Also, saying that kids prepped and that some used test banks is not bashing TJ. I taught at the University level for 10 years. The Greek Houses had test banks that their members studied out of, it is common knowledge. I enjoyed screwing with those kids because I knew it was happening. It is a fact that test banks exist at many schools, regardless of the level so HS and College. The test administrators for TJ should have been aware of that and adjusted the test just like I did when I taught. There were Professors who didn't adjust their tests and were, essentially, fine with the knowledge that students were cheating in their classes. TJ decided to get rid of the test instead of taking the time to adjust the test. I don't agree with that, I think it is lazy.

Saying that the admissions practices for TJ need to shift is not bashing TJ. It is saying that I think that TJ should reflect the County it is based in. I like the MS distribution of seats. I like that the application no longer takes into consideration extra activities outside of school opportunities available to all kids. I would be fine with letters of recommendations and a test that was re-written every year to avoid the issues with cheating. I think that requirements could be shifted to require honors classes or AAP classes in all core classes, geometry by the end of 8th grade, and a higher GPA.

That is not bashing TJ but wanting to have a program that is accessible to more students and were kids have a chance to participate across the County.

TJ is a regional Governor's School, not a county public works program.

Does every other county that participates in TJ now make seats available on the same basis as FCPS does now, with middle school set-asides?

No one objects when a few schools like Westfield, Hayfield, and South County tend to dominate in athletics, but somehow it's "unfair" and has to be corrected if some middle schools have stronger kids academically.

DP. Gonna address a couple of issues here.

1) Yes, every other county's middle schools are subject to the 1.5% allocation. That's how there are so many students who are attending TJ from Prince William County now. The number used to be in the 10-20s year over year, and now it's closer to 60-70.

2) It's not "unfair" that some middle schools have stronger kids academically. That's the nature of life when you have AAP offerings and centers and magnet programs and the like - and even moreso when you have disparate resources in different areas of the county. It is problematic when you have schools that literally send no students to the county's flagship school for decades - not the least of which is the fact that striving for that flagship school ceases to become part of the culture of that school.

3) Carson, Rocky Run, and Longfellow are still going to send huge numbers of kids to TJ every year - far more than other, less well-represented schools. And they should - they have a larger number of stronger kids. The kids from those schools who are qualified for TJ will be exposed to a much more diverse environment than they would have been regardless of whether or not they get in, because TJ will look a little more like their base school than it used to. Which, in turn, will be better for their overall education.

The thing is they're not stronger academically just have had more outside enrichment which is a different thing.

This is one of the dumbest things ever. “They’re not stronger, only more prepared!” 😂😂😂

I think it makes sense. (See: Goodhart's Law)
Consider two kids, A and B. Both did almost equally well (A got a tiny bit higher) on the test, but A prepped for months and B did not. You would naturally expect B to better if B prepped as much as A did. If they both get in to TJHHS, and they both work equally as hard, B is more likely to succeed, yet A is more likely to get in.

Consider a different scenario where two kids X, and Y both took the AMC 8 test. X prepped and got 22 questions out of 25 correct, while Y did not prep and only got the first 9 questions correct. You would naturally NOT expect Y to have the same level of problem solving ability as X, who spent months preparing. Here, X represents a score on the high end of the test, while Y represents an average score on the test.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have a child at poorly performing MS which, prior to the admission policy change, typically did not have any students admitted to TJ. DC is truly a brilliant and hardworking kid - the top student in honors geometry (near perfect average), acing the rest of their all honors courses, all advanced pass or perfect SOL scores, etc. DC is white and we do not qualify for free/reduced priced meals.

I'm curious to know what the admittance pool looks like at a school like ours? Do we have a shot or are the spots typically offered to high performing students with one or more "experience factors"?

I hope to keep the conversation civil and am genuinely asking out of curiosity. TIA!

One from ours was such an outlier. Real genius even. Don't think they would've stood a chance with the old system though since their family is low-income and wouldn't even consider prep classes that were required to be competitive then.

Prep was never necessary. My two kids and many others did no prep. Stop with those lies.

OP, your kid should do well coming from a low performing school. It’s the kids like yours at high performing schools that are getting rejected.

It is not a lie that kids prepped. Prep programs posted the names of kids who were accepted into TJ and similar schools. And they posted them for many years, you used to be able to look at the roster for many years back.

Were there kids who were accepted who did not prep? Yes. Was there a large percentage of kids who did prep? Yes. By the time they were dropping the Quant test, there were more kids who had participated in prep programs then had not.

The reality is that parents who are very invested in their kids attending TJ will look at what seems to work and replicate that. Prep worked, so you saw that practice grow. The prep now is shifting from the Quant test and to essay prep, people are discussing it and the prep programs, like Currie, are more focused on the writing portion in their write ups. If moving schools seems to work I would guess that you will see more families do that. If you can afford the cost of the prep programs, and they do run in the 10,000-20,000 range for 7th and 8th grade, then you can rent a cheap apartment and drive your kid to school for a year or two.

The kids whose parents are looking to game the system are not the majority of the school but they are a significant percentage of the school. I am sure it sucks for the kids who didn’t go to the prep schools or look to game the system but it doesn’t change the fact that it did happen and is continuing to happen today.

You said prep was “required.” It was not. Choose your words more carefully rather than buying into the TJ bashing.

I did not post that prep was required. This is an anonymous board, people with different opinions are going to post and quote posts. Don't assume that you are talking to the same person because you are not.

There are kids who prepped and there are kids who did not. There seem to be folks on both side of the debate that are 100% stuck on one particular line and unable to see the middle ground. There are a few posters who keep screaming that every kid prepped, and that is BS. There are a few posters who claim no one prepped and that there was no cheating on the Quant test, and that is BS. There is plenty of evidence that there are kids who prepped, and that the number of prepped kids increased as people saw that it worked, and that there are prep schools that had test banks that provided an advantage to kids who attended the prep programs. There are also kids who were accepted into TJ who did not attend those prep programs and who did not have advanced access to the tests.

Also, saying that kids prepped and that some used test banks is not bashing TJ. I taught at the University level for 10 years. The Greek Houses had test banks that their members studied out of, it is common knowledge. I enjoyed screwing with those kids because I knew it was happening. It is a fact that test banks exist at many schools, regardless of the level so HS and College. The test administrators for TJ should have been aware of that and adjusted the test just like I did when I taught. There were Professors who didn't adjust their tests and were, essentially, fine with the knowledge that students were cheating in their classes. TJ decided to get rid of the test instead of taking the time to adjust the test. I don't agree with that, I think it is lazy.

Saying that the admissions practices for TJ need to shift is not bashing TJ. It is saying that I think that TJ should reflect the County it is based in. I like the MS distribution of seats. I like that the application no longer takes into consideration extra activities outside of school opportunities available to all kids. I would be fine with letters of recommendations and a test that was re-written every year to avoid the issues with cheating. I think that requirements could be shifted to require honors classes or AAP classes in all core classes, geometry by the end of 8th grade, and a higher GPA.

That is not bashing TJ but wanting to have a program that is accessible to more students and were kids have a chance to participate across the County.

TJ is a regional Governor's School, not a county public works program.

Does every other county that participates in TJ now make seats available on the same basis as FCPS does now, with middle school set-asides?

No one objects when a few schools like Westfield, Hayfield, and South County tend to dominate in athletics, but somehow it's "unfair" and has to be corrected if some middle schools have stronger kids academically.

DP. Gonna address a couple of issues here.

1) Yes, every other county's middle schools are subject to the 1.5% allocation. That's how there are so many students who are attending TJ from Prince William County now. The number used to be in the 10-20s year over year, and now it's closer to 60-70.

2) It's not "unfair" that some middle schools have stronger kids academically. That's the nature of life when you have AAP offerings and centers and magnet programs and the like - and even moreso when you have disparate resources in different areas of the county. It is problematic when you have schools that literally send no students to the county's flagship school for decades - not the least of which is the fact that striving for that flagship school ceases to become part of the culture of that school.

3) Carson, Rocky Run, and Longfellow are still going to send huge numbers of kids to TJ every year - far more than other, less well-represented schools. And they should - they have a larger number of stronger kids. The kids from those schools who are qualified for TJ will be exposed to a much more diverse environment than they would have been regardless of whether or not they get in, because TJ will look a little more like their base school than it used to. Which, in turn, will be better for their overall education.

The thing is they're not stronger academically just have had more outside enrichment which is a different thing.

This is one of the dumbest things ever. “They’re not stronger, only more prepared!” 😂😂😂

I think it makes sense. (See: Goodhart's Law)
Consider two kids, A and B. Both did almost equally well (A got a tiny bit higher) on the test, but A prepped for months and B did not. You would naturally expect B to better if B [b]prepped as much as A did[/b]. If they both get in to TJHHS, and they both work equally as hard, B is more likely to succeed, yet A is more likely to get in.

Can you define 'Prep'? AMC 8 is not an IQ test. It is about using math techniques to solve problems. Kids needs to either taught/self-study/taught by parents or outside-enrichment. Both kid has tools at disposal to learn it for free (if $$$ is an issue). Why do you think kid B will do better than Kid A in TJ? There are other factors that influences success in school, score is just one aspect of it. Anyone scoring 22/25 is good in math, prepped or not. Maybe kid A is not as smart as kid B but worked hard and reach the level of B.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have a child at poorly performing MS which, prior to the admission policy change, typically did not have any students admitted to TJ. DC is truly a brilliant and hardworking kid - the top student in honors geometry (near perfect average), acing the rest of their all honors courses, all advanced pass or perfect SOL scores, etc. DC is white and we do not qualify for free/reduced priced meals.

I'm curious to know what the admittance pool looks like at a school like ours? Do we have a shot or are the spots typically offered to high performing students with one or more "experience factors"?

I hope to keep the conversation civil and am genuinely asking out of curiosity. TIA!

One from ours was such an outlier. Real genius even. Don't think they would've stood a chance with the old system though since their family is low-income and wouldn't even consider prep classes that were required to be competitive then.

Prep was never necessary. My two kids and many others did no prep. Stop with those lies.

OP, your kid should do well coming from a low performing school. It’s the kids like yours at high performing schools that are getting rejected.

It is not a lie that kids prepped. Prep programs posted the names of kids who were accepted into TJ and similar schools. And they posted them for many years, you used to be able to look at the roster for many years back.

Were there kids who were accepted who did not prep? Yes. Was there a large percentage of kids who did prep? Yes. By the time they were dropping the Quant test, there were more kids who had participated in prep programs then had not.

The reality is that parents who are very invested in their kids attending TJ will look at what seems to work and replicate that. Prep worked, so you saw that practice grow. The prep now is shifting from the Quant test and to essay prep, people are discussing it and the prep programs, like Currie, are more focused on the writing portion in their write ups. If moving schools seems to work I would guess that you will see more families do that. If you can afford the cost of the prep programs, and they do run in the 10,000-20,000 range for 7th and 8th grade, then you can rent a cheap apartment and drive your kid to school for a year or two.

The kids whose parents are looking to game the system are not the majority of the school but they are a significant percentage of the school. I am sure it sucks for the kids who didn’t go to the prep schools or look to game the system but it doesn’t change the fact that it did happen and is continuing to happen today.

You said prep was “required.” It was not. Choose your words more carefully rather than buying into the TJ bashing.

I did not post that prep was required. This is an anonymous board, people with different opinions are going to post and quote posts. Don't assume that you are talking to the same person because you are not.

There are kids who prepped and there are kids who did not. There seem to be folks on both side of the debate that are 100% stuck on one particular line and unable to see the middle ground. There are a few posters who keep screaming that every kid prepped, and that is BS. There are a few posters who claim no one prepped and that there was no cheating on the Quant test, and that is BS. There is plenty of evidence that there are kids who prepped, and that the number of prepped kids increased as people saw that it worked, and that there are prep schools that had test banks that provided an advantage to kids who attended the prep programs. There are also kids who were accepted into TJ who did not attend those prep programs and who did not have advanced access to the tests.

Also, saying that kids prepped and that some used test banks is not bashing TJ. I taught at the University level for 10 years. The Greek Houses had test banks that their members studied out of, it is common knowledge. I enjoyed screwing with those kids because I knew it was happening. It is a fact that test banks exist at many schools, regardless of the level so HS and College. The test administrators for TJ should have been aware of that and adjusted the test just like I did when I taught. There were Professors who didn't adjust their tests and were, essentially, fine with the knowledge that students were cheating in their classes. TJ decided to get rid of the test instead of taking the time to adjust the test. I don't agree with that, I think it is lazy.

Saying that the admissions practices for TJ need to shift is not bashing TJ. It is saying that I think that TJ should reflect the County it is based in. I like the MS distribution of seats. I like that the application no longer takes into consideration extra activities outside of school opportunities available to all kids. I would be fine with letters of recommendations and a test that was re-written every year to avoid the issues with cheating. I think that requirements could be shifted to require honors classes or AAP classes in all core classes, geometry by the end of 8th grade, and a higher GPA.

That is not bashing TJ but wanting to have a program that is accessible to more students and were kids have a chance to participate across the County.

TJ is a regional Governor's School, not a county public works program.

Does every other county that participates in TJ now make seats available on the same basis as FCPS does now, with middle school set-asides?

No one objects when a few schools like Westfield, Hayfield, and South County tend to dominate in athletics, but somehow it's "unfair" and has to be corrected if some middle schools have stronger kids academically.

DP. Gonna address a couple of issues here.

1) Yes, every other county's middle schools are subject to the 1.5% allocation. That's how there are so many students who are attending TJ from Prince William County now. The number used to be in the 10-20s year over year, and now it's closer to 60-70.

2) It's not "unfair" that some middle schools have stronger kids academically. That's the nature of life when you have AAP offerings and centers and magnet programs and the like - and even moreso when you have disparate resources in different areas of the county. It is problematic when you have schools that literally send no students to the county's flagship school for decades - not the least of which is the fact that striving for that flagship school ceases to become part of the culture of that school.

3) Carson, Rocky Run, and Longfellow are still going to send huge numbers of kids to TJ every year - far more than other, less well-represented schools. And they should - they have a larger number of stronger kids. The kids from those schools who are qualified for TJ will be exposed to a much more diverse environment than they would have been regardless of whether or not they get in, because TJ will look a little more like their base school than it used to. Which, in turn, will be better for their overall education.

The thing is they're not stronger academically just have had more outside enrichment which is a different thing.

This is one of the dumbest things ever. “They’re not stronger, only more prepared!” 😂😂😂

I think it makes sense. (See: Goodhart's Law)
Consider two kids, A and B. Both did almost equally well (A got a tiny bit higher) on the test, but A prepped for months and B did not. You would naturally expect B to better if B prepped as much as A did. If they both get in to TJHHS, and they both work equally as hard, B is more likely to succeed, yet A is more likely to get in.

Consider a different scenario where two kids X, and Y both took the AMC 8 test. X prepped and got 22 questions out of 25 correct, while Y did not prep and only got the first 9 questions correct. You would naturally NOT expect Y to have the same level of problem solving ability as X, who spent months preparing. Here, X represents a score on the high end of the test, while Y represents an average score on the test.

For a test like AMC 8, an unprepped but math gifted kid could score around a 14-18. A prepped but ungifted kid is unlikely to score much above a 15. You could reasonably argue that if kid A gets a 16 and kid B gets a 14, prep might obscure which kid is more talented at math. If, on the other hand, kid A gets a 9 and kid B gets a 22, then kid B is certainly much stronger at math than kid A. A 22 is usually around the top 1% cutoff. Considering that only kids who are strong at math take the AMC 8 in the first place, and many kids out there are doing prep/AOPS/RSM, it's still quite an achievement to be in the top 1% of that already self selected group.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have a child at poorly performing MS which, prior to the admission policy change, typically did not have any students admitted to TJ. DC is truly a brilliant and hardworking kid - the top student in honors geometry (near perfect average), acing the rest of their all honors courses, all advanced pass or perfect SOL scores, etc. DC is white and we do not qualify for free/reduced priced meals.

I'm curious to know what the admittance pool looks like at a school like ours? Do we have a shot or are the spots typically offered to high performing students with one or more "experience factors"?

I hope to keep the conversation civil and am genuinely asking out of curiosity. TIA!

One from ours was such an outlier. Real genius even. Don't think they would've stood a chance with the old system though since their family is low-income and wouldn't even consider prep classes that were required to be competitive then.

Prep was never necessary. My two kids and many others did no prep. Stop with those lies.

OP, your kid should do well coming from a low performing school. It’s the kids like yours at high performing schools that are getting rejected.

It is not a lie that kids prepped. Prep programs posted the names of kids who were accepted into TJ and similar schools. And they posted them for many years, you used to be able to look at the roster for many years back.

Were there kids who were accepted who did not prep? Yes. Was there a large percentage of kids who did prep? Yes. By the time they were dropping the Quant test, there were more kids who had participated in prep programs then had not.

The reality is that parents who are very invested in their kids attending TJ will look at what seems to work and replicate that. Prep worked, so you saw that practice grow. The prep now is shifting from the Quant test and to essay prep, people are discussing it and the prep programs, like Currie, are more focused on the writing portion in their write ups. If moving schools seems to work I would guess that you will see more families do that. If you can afford the cost of the prep programs, and they do run in the 10,000-20,000 range for 7th and 8th grade, then you can rent a cheap apartment and drive your kid to school for a year or two.

The kids whose parents are looking to game the system are not the majority of the school but they are a significant percentage of the school. I am sure it sucks for the kids who didn’t go to the prep schools or look to game the system but it doesn’t change the fact that it did happen and is continuing to happen today.

You said prep was “required.” It was not. Choose your words more carefully rather than buying into the TJ bashing.

I did not post that prep was required. This is an anonymous board, people with different opinions are going to post and quote posts. Don't assume that you are talking to the same person because you are not.

There are kids who prepped and there are kids who did not. There seem to be folks on both side of the debate that are 100% stuck on one particular line and unable to see the middle ground. There are a few posters who keep screaming that every kid prepped, and that is BS. There are a few posters who claim no one prepped and that there was no cheating on the Quant test, and that is BS. There is plenty of evidence that there are kids who prepped, and that the number of prepped kids increased as people saw that it worked, and that there are prep schools that had test banks that provided an advantage to kids who attended the prep programs. There are also kids who were accepted into TJ who did not attend those prep programs and who did not have advanced access to the tests.

Also, saying that kids prepped and that some used test banks is not bashing TJ. I taught at the University level for 10 years. The Greek Houses had test banks that their members studied out of, it is common knowledge. I enjoyed screwing with those kids because I knew it was happening. It is a fact that test banks exist at many schools, regardless of the level so HS and College. The test administrators for TJ should have been aware of that and adjusted the test just like I did when I taught. There were Professors who didn't adjust their tests and were, essentially, fine with the knowledge that students were cheating in their classes. TJ decided to get rid of the test instead of taking the time to adjust the test. I don't agree with that, I think it is lazy.

Saying that the admissions practices for TJ need to shift is not bashing TJ. It is saying that I think that TJ should reflect the County it is based in. I like the MS distribution of seats. I like that the application no longer takes into consideration extra activities outside of school opportunities available to all kids. I would be fine with letters of recommendations and a test that was re-written every year to avoid the issues with cheating. I think that requirements could be shifted to require honors classes or AAP classes in all core classes, geometry by the end of 8th grade, and a higher GPA.

That is not bashing TJ but wanting to have a program that is accessible to more students and were kids have a chance to participate across the County.

TJ is a regional Governor's School, not a county public works program.

Does every other county that participates in TJ now make seats available on the same basis as FCPS does now, with middle school set-asides?

No one objects when a few schools like Westfield, Hayfield, and South County tend to dominate in athletics, but somehow it's "unfair" and has to be corrected if some middle schools have stronger kids academically.

DP. Gonna address a couple of issues here.

1) Yes, every other county's middle schools are subject to the 1.5% allocation. That's how there are so many students who are attending TJ from Prince William County now. The number used to be in the 10-20s year over year, and now it's closer to 60-70.

2) It's not "unfair" that some middle schools have stronger kids academically. That's the nature of life when you have AAP offerings and centers and magnet programs and the like - and even moreso when you have disparate resources in different areas of the county. It is problematic when you have schools that literally send no students to the county's flagship school for decades - not the least of which is the fact that striving for that flagship school ceases to become part of the culture of that school.

3) Carson, Rocky Run, and Longfellow are still going to send huge numbers of kids to TJ every year - far more than other, less well-represented schools. And they should - they have a larger number of stronger kids. The kids from those schools who are qualified for TJ will be exposed to a much more diverse environment than they would have been regardless of whether or not they get in, because TJ will look a little more like their base school than it used to. Which, in turn, will be better for their overall education.

The thing is they're not stronger academically just have had more outside enrichment which is a different thing.

This is one of the dumbest things ever. “They’re not stronger, only more prepared!” 😂😂😂

I think it makes sense. (See: Goodhart's Law)
Consider two kids, A and B. Both did almost equally well (A got a tiny bit higher) on the test, but A prepped for months and B did not. You would naturally expect B to better if B prepped as much as A did. If they both get in to TJHHS, and they both work equally as hard, B is more likely to succeed, yet A is more likely to get in.

Consider a different scenario where two kids X, and Y both took the AMC 8 test. X prepped and got 22 questions out of 25 correct, while Y did not prep and only got the first 9 questions correct. You would naturally NOT expect Y to have the same level of problem solving ability as X, who spent months preparing. Here, X represents a score on the high end of the test, while Y represents an average score on the test.

For a test like AMC 8, an unprepped but math gifted kid could score around a 14-18. A prepped but ungifted kid is unlikely to score much above a 15. You could reasonably argue that if kid A gets a 16 and kid B gets a 14, prep might obscure which kid is more talented at math. If, on the other hand, kid A gets a 9 and kid B gets a 22, then kid B is certainly much stronger at math than kid A. A 22 is usually around the top 1% cutoff. Considering that only kids who are strong at math take the AMC 8 in the first place, and many kids out there are doing prep/AOPS/RSM, it's still quite an achievement to be in the top 1% of that already self selected group.

Your first sentence is an oxymoron. What does it mean to be unprepped but "math gifted" ? You (and others on these forums) seem to think that giftedness is some godly endowment. Kids who are good at math will learn more math, (aka prep), and as a result become more "gifted", as you put it. That's how it works for anything, it's a feedback loop. Kids who identify as good at math early on generally do a bunch of extra math because they're interested and confident in their ability to take on extra challenges, and as a result.. voila they become gifted and score highly on tests such as the AMC, etc. appearing 'gifted' to you. It would be a rarity to find "unprepped but math gifted" kids in this area, as though somehow they just realized they were amazing at math out of thin air. I know that people on the forums love great 'genius' dramas such as Good Will Hunting (which is indeed fantastic), but don't let the reality fool you: The overwhelming majority of kids who score highly on these exams are good at math (perhaps even 'gifted' as you put it) AND they prepped hard. It's an illusion to think that there are many kids who just go in there and get a high score on these types of problem solving tests; as much as you'd love to believe it, it is statistically highly unlikely. The kids who do well have trained not only for the specific AMC test, but have also learned/studied math way beyond what they are learning in school. That is the only way to do really well (just like anything else, including music, sports, etc).

For context, I've taught math to hundreds of kids, and prepared many for math competitions.. almost every single high scorer has been doing math 'on the side' (aka outside of school) for many years. Whether they're gifted or not, is irrelevant, they're simply great at problem solving on these tests, and that's what matters in the real world. Math is a logical endeavor and consequently one can actually train to become a very good problem solver and think creatively.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have a child at poorly performing MS which, prior to the admission policy change, typically did not have any students admitted to TJ. DC is truly a brilliant and hardworking kid - the top student in honors geometry (near perfect average), acing the rest of their all honors courses, all advanced pass or perfect SOL scores, etc. DC is white and we do not qualify for free/reduced priced meals.

I'm curious to know what the admittance pool looks like at a school like ours? Do we have a shot or are the spots typically offered to high performing students with one or more "experience factors"?

I hope to keep the conversation civil and am genuinely asking out of curiosity. TIA!

One from ours was such an outlier. Real genius even. Don't think they would've stood a chance with the old system though since their family is low-income and wouldn't even consider prep classes that were required to be competitive then.

Prep was never necessary. My two kids and many others did no prep. Stop with those lies.

OP, your kid should do well coming from a low performing school. It’s the kids like yours at high performing schools that are getting rejected.

It is not a lie that kids prepped. Prep programs posted the names of kids who were accepted into TJ and similar schools. And they posted them for many years, you used to be able to look at the roster for many years back.

Were there kids who were accepted who did not prep? Yes. Was there a large percentage of kids who did prep? Yes. By the time they were dropping the Quant test, there were more kids who had participated in prep programs then had not.

The reality is that parents who are very invested in their kids attending TJ will look at what seems to work and replicate that. Prep worked, so you saw that practice grow. The prep now is shifting from the Quant test and to essay prep, people are discussing it and the prep programs, like Currie, are more focused on the writing portion in their write ups. If moving schools seems to work I would guess that you will see more families do that. If you can afford the cost of the prep programs, and they do run in the 10,000-20,000 range for 7th and 8th grade, then you can rent a cheap apartment and drive your kid to school for a year or two.

The kids whose parents are looking to game the system are not the majority of the school but they are a significant percentage of the school. I am sure it sucks for the kids who didn’t go to the prep schools or look to game the system but it doesn’t change the fact that it did happen and is continuing to happen today.

You said prep was “required.” It was not. Choose your words more carefully rather than buying into the TJ bashing.

I did not post that prep was required. This is an anonymous board, people with different opinions are going to post and quote posts. Don't assume that you are talking to the same person because you are not.

There are kids who prepped and there are kids who did not. There seem to be folks on both side of the debate that are 100% stuck on one particular line and unable to see the middle ground. There are a few posters who keep screaming that every kid prepped, and that is BS. There are a few posters who claim no one prepped and that there was no cheating on the Quant test, and that is BS. There is plenty of evidence that there are kids who prepped, and that the number of prepped kids increased as people saw that it worked, and that there are prep schools that had test banks that provided an advantage to kids who attended the prep programs. There are also kids who were accepted into TJ who did not attend those prep programs and who did not have advanced access to the tests.

Also, saying that kids prepped and that some used test banks is not bashing TJ. I taught at the University level for 10 years. The Greek Houses had test banks that their members studied out of, it is common knowledge. I enjoyed screwing with those kids because I knew it was happening. It is a fact that test banks exist at many schools, regardless of the level so HS and College. The test administrators for TJ should have been aware of that and adjusted the test just like I did when I taught. There were Professors who didn't adjust their tests and were, essentially, fine with the knowledge that students were cheating in their classes. TJ decided to get rid of the test instead of taking the time to adjust the test. I don't agree with that, I think it is lazy.

Saying that the admissions practices for TJ need to shift is not bashing TJ. It is saying that I think that TJ should reflect the County it is based in. I like the MS distribution of seats. I like that the application no longer takes into consideration extra activities outside of school opportunities available to all kids. I would be fine with letters of recommendations and a test that was re-written every year to avoid the issues with cheating. I think that requirements could be shifted to require honors classes or AAP classes in all core classes, geometry by the end of 8th grade, and a higher GPA.

That is not bashing TJ but wanting to have a program that is accessible to more students and were kids have a chance to participate across the County.

TJ is a regional Governor's School, not a county public works program.

Does every other county that participates in TJ now make seats available on the same basis as FCPS does now, with middle school set-asides?

No one objects when a few schools like Westfield, Hayfield, and South County tend to dominate in athletics, but somehow it's "unfair" and has to be corrected if some middle schools have stronger kids academically.

DP. Gonna address a couple of issues here.

1) Yes, every other county's middle schools are subject to the 1.5% allocation. That's how there are so many students who are attending TJ from Prince William County now. The number used to be in the 10-20s year over year, and now it's closer to 60-70.

2) It's not "unfair" that some middle schools have stronger kids academically. That's the nature of life when you have AAP offerings and centers and magnet programs and the like - and even moreso when you have disparate resources in different areas of the county. It is problematic when you have schools that literally send no students to the county's flagship school for decades - not the least of which is the fact that striving for that flagship school ceases to become part of the culture of that school.

3) Carson, Rocky Run, and Longfellow are still going to send huge numbers of kids to TJ every year - far more than other, less well-represented schools. And they should - they have a larger number of stronger kids. The kids from those schools who are qualified for TJ will be exposed to a much more diverse environment than they would have been regardless of whether or not they get in, because TJ will look a little more like their base school than it used to. Which, in turn, will be better for their overall education.

The thing is they're not stronger academically just have had more outside enrichment which is a different thing.

This is one of the dumbest things ever. “They’re not stronger, only more prepared!” 😂😂😂

I think it makes sense. (See: Goodhart's Law)
Consider two kids, A and B. Both did almost equally well (A got a tiny bit higher) on the test, but A prepped for months and B did not. You would naturally expect B to better if B prepped as much as A did. If they both get in to TJHHS, and they both work equally as hard, B is more likely to succeed, yet A is more likely to get in.

Consider a different scenario where two kids X, and Y both took the AMC 8 test. X prepped and got 22 questions out of 25 correct, while Y did not prep and only got the first 9 questions correct. You would naturally NOT expect Y to have the same level of problem solving ability as X, who spent months preparing. Here, X represents a score on the high end of the test, while Y represents an average score on the test.

For a test like AMC 8, an unprepped but math gifted kid could score around a 14-18. A prepped but ungifted kid is unlikely to score much above a 15. You could reasonably argue that if kid A gets a 16 and kid B gets a 14, prep might obscure which kid is more talented at math. If, on the other hand, kid A gets a 9 and kid B gets a 22, then kid B is certainly much stronger at math than kid A. A 22 is usually around the top 1% cutoff. Considering that only kids who are strong at math take the AMC 8 in the first place, and many kids out there are doing prep/AOPS/RSM, it's still quite an achievement to be in the top 1% of that already self selected group.

So true!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Your first sentence is an oxymoron. What does it mean to be unprepped but "math gifted" ?

Someone posted in this forum that their ES aged kid got a 14 on AMC 8 without anything other than regular AAP math. "Math gifted" but not prepped would mean a kid who is naturally very apt at math, but has not done contest prep/AoPS/RSM. Kids like that are rare, but they do exist.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have a child at poorly performing MS which, prior to the admission policy change, typically did not have any students admitted to TJ. DC is truly a brilliant and hardworking kid - the top student in honors geometry (near perfect average), acing the rest of their all honors courses, all advanced pass or perfect SOL scores, etc. DC is white and we do not qualify for free/reduced priced meals.

I'm curious to know what the admittance pool looks like at a school like ours? Do we have a shot or are the spots typically offered to high performing students with one or more "experience factors"?

I hope to keep the conversation civil and am genuinely asking out of curiosity. TIA!

One from ours was such an outlier. Real genius even. Don't think they would've stood a chance with the old system though since their family is low-income and wouldn't even consider prep classes that were required to be competitive then.

Prep was never necessary. My two kids and many others did no prep. Stop with those lies.

OP, your kid should do well coming from a low performing school. It’s the kids like yours at high performing schools that are getting rejected.

It is not a lie that kids prepped. Prep programs posted the names of kids who were accepted into TJ and similar schools. And they posted them for many years, you used to be able to look at the roster for many years back.

Were there kids who were accepted who did not prep? Yes. Was there a large percentage of kids who did prep? Yes. By the time they were dropping the Quant test, there were more kids who had participated in prep programs then had not.

The reality is that parents who are very invested in their kids attending TJ will look at what seems to work and replicate that. Prep worked, so you saw that practice grow. The prep now is shifting from the Quant test and to essay prep, people are discussing it and the prep programs, like Currie, are more focused on the writing portion in their write ups. If moving schools seems to work I would guess that you will see more families do that. If you can afford the cost of the prep programs, and they do run in the 10,000-20,000 range for 7th and 8th grade, then you can rent a cheap apartment and drive your kid to school for a year or two.

The kids whose parents are looking to game the system are not the majority of the school but they are a significant percentage of the school. I am sure it sucks for the kids who didn’t go to the prep schools or look to game the system but it doesn’t change the fact that it did happen and is continuing to happen today.

You said prep was “required.” It was not. Choose your words more carefully rather than buying into the TJ bashing.

I did not post that prep was required. This is an anonymous board, people with different opinions are going to post and quote posts. Don't assume that you are talking to the same person because you are not.

There are kids who prepped and there are kids who did not. There seem to be folks on both side of the debate that are 100% stuck on one particular line and unable to see the middle ground. There are a few posters who keep screaming that every kid prepped, and that is BS. There are a few posters who claim no one prepped and that there was no cheating on the Quant test, and that is BS. There is plenty of evidence that there are kids who prepped, and that the number of prepped kids increased as people saw that it worked, and that there are prep schools that had test banks that provided an advantage to kids who attended the prep programs. There are also kids who were accepted into TJ who did not attend those prep programs and who did not have advanced access to the tests.

Also, saying that kids prepped and that some used test banks is not bashing TJ. I taught at the University level for 10 years. The Greek Houses had test banks that their members studied out of, it is common knowledge. I enjoyed screwing with those kids because I knew it was happening. It is a fact that test banks exist at many schools, regardless of the level so HS and College. The test administrators for TJ should have been aware of that and adjusted the test just like I did when I taught. There were Professors who didn't adjust their tests and were, essentially, fine with the knowledge that students were cheating in their classes. TJ decided to get rid of the test instead of taking the time to adjust the test. I don't agree with that, I think it is lazy.

Saying that the admissions practices for TJ need to shift is not bashing TJ. It is saying that I think that TJ should reflect the County it is based in. I like the MS distribution of seats. I like that the application no longer takes into consideration extra activities outside of school opportunities available to all kids. I would be fine with letters of recommendations and a test that was re-written every year to avoid the issues with cheating. I think that requirements could be shifted to require honors classes or AAP classes in all core classes, geometry by the end of 8th grade, and a higher GPA.

That is not bashing TJ but wanting to have a program that is accessible to more students and were kids have a chance to participate across the County.

TJ is a regional Governor's School, not a county public works program.

Does every other county that participates in TJ now make seats available on the same basis as FCPS does now, with middle school set-asides?

No one objects when a few schools like Westfield, Hayfield, and South County tend to dominate in athletics, but somehow it's "unfair" and has to be corrected if some middle schools have stronger kids academically.

DP. Gonna address a couple of issues here.

1) Yes, every other county's middle schools are subject to the 1.5% allocation. That's how there are so many students who are attending TJ from Prince William County now. The number used to be in the 10-20s year over year, and now it's closer to 60-70.

2) It's not "unfair" that some middle schools have stronger kids academically. That's the nature of life when you have AAP offerings and centers and magnet programs and the like - and even moreso when you have disparate resources in different areas of the county. It is problematic when you have schools that literally send no students to the county's flagship school for decades - not the least of which is the fact that striving for that flagship school ceases to become part of the culture of that school.

3) Carson, Rocky Run, and Longfellow are still going to send huge numbers of kids to TJ every year - far more than other, less well-represented schools. And they should - they have a larger number of stronger kids. The kids from those schools who are qualified for TJ will be exposed to a much more diverse environment than they would have been regardless of whether or not they get in, because TJ will look a little more like their base school than it used to. Which, in turn, will be better for their overall education.

The thing is they're not stronger academically just have had more outside enrichment which is a different thing.

This is one of the dumbest things ever. “They’re not stronger, only more prepared!” 😂😂😂

I think it makes sense. (See: Goodhart's Law)
Consider two kids, A and B. Both did almost equally well (A got a tiny bit higher) on the test, but A prepped for months and B did not. You would naturally expect B to better if B prepped as much as A did. If they both get in to TJHHS, and they both work equally as hard, B is more likely to succeed, yet A is more likely to get in.

Consider a different scenario where two kids X, and Y both took the AMC 8 test. X prepped and got 22 questions out of 25 correct, while Y did not prep and only got the first 9 questions correct. You would naturally NOT expect Y to have the same level of problem solving ability as X, who spent months preparing. Here, X represents a score on the high end of the test, while Y represents an average score on the test.

For a test like AMC 8, an unprepped but math gifted kid could score around a 14-18. A prepped but ungifted kid is unlikely to score much above a 15. You could reasonably argue that if kid A gets a 16 and kid B gets a 14, prep might obscure which kid is more talented at math. If, on the other hand, kid A gets a 9 and kid B gets a 22, then kid B is certainly much stronger at math than kid A. A 22 is usually around the top 1% cutoff. Considering that only kids who are strong at math take the AMC 8 in the first place, and many kids out there are doing prep/AOPS/RSM, it's still quite an achievement to be in the top 1% of that already self selected group.

Your first sentence is an oxymoron. What does it mean to be unprepped but "math gifted" ? You (and others on these forums) seem to think that giftedness is some godly endowment. Kids who are good at math will learn more math, (aka prep), and as a result become more "gifted", as you put it. That's how it works for anything, it's a feedback loop. Kids who identify as good at math early on generally do a bunch of extra math because they're interested and confident in their ability to take on extra challenges, and as a result.. voila they become gifted and score highly on tests such as the AMC, etc. appearing 'gifted' to you. It would be a rarity to find "unprepped but math gifted" kids in this area, as though somehow they just realized they were amazing at math out of thin air. I know that people on the forums love great 'genius' dramas such as Good Will Hunting (which is indeed fantastic), but don't let the reality fool you: The overwhelming majority of kids who score highly on these exams are good at math (perhaps even 'gifted' as you put it) AND they prepped hard. It's an illusion to think that there are many kids who just go in there and get a high score on these types of problem solving tests; as much as you'd love to believe it, it is statistically highly unlikely. The kids who do well have trained not only for the specific AMC test, but have also learned/studied math way beyond what they are learning in school. That is the only way to do really well (just like anything else, including music, sports, etc).

For context, I've taught math to hundreds of kids, and prepared many for math competitions.. almost every single high scorer has been doing math 'on the side' (aka outside of school) for many years. Whether they're gifted or not, is irrelevant, they're simply great at problem solving on these tests, and that's what matters in the real world. Math is a logical endeavor and consequently one can actually train to become a very good problem solver and think creatively.

This is the truth. Even the most gifted need to prep for test like AMC8/10. Nobody is born with knowledge of math theorems. One has to learn either self-taught or prep.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have a child at poorly performing MS which, prior to the admission policy change, typically did not have any students admitted to TJ. DC is truly a brilliant and hardworking kid - the top student in honors geometry (near perfect average), acing the rest of their all honors courses, all advanced pass or perfect SOL scores, etc. DC is white and we do not qualify for free/reduced priced meals.

I'm curious to know what the admittance pool looks like at a school like ours? Do we have a shot or are the spots typically offered to high performing students with one or more "experience factors"?

I hope to keep the conversation civil and am genuinely asking out of curiosity. TIA!

One from ours was such an outlier. Real genius even. Don't think they would've stood a chance with the old system though since their family is low-income and wouldn't even consider prep classes that were required to be competitive then.

Prep was never necessary. My two kids and many others did no prep. Stop with those lies.

OP, your kid should do well coming from a low performing school. It’s the kids like yours at high performing schools that are getting rejected.

It is not a lie that kids prepped. Prep programs posted the names of kids who were accepted into TJ and similar schools. And they posted them for many years, you used to be able to look at the roster for many years back.

Were there kids who were accepted who did not prep? Yes. Was there a large percentage of kids who did prep? Yes. By the time they were dropping the Quant test, there were more kids who had participated in prep programs then had not.

The reality is that parents who are very invested in their kids attending TJ will look at what seems to work and replicate that. Prep worked, so you saw that practice grow. The prep now is shifting from the Quant test and to essay prep, people are discussing it and the prep programs, like Currie, are more focused on the writing portion in their write ups. If moving schools seems to work I would guess that you will see more families do that. If you can afford the cost of the prep programs, and they do run in the 10,000-20,000 range for 7th and 8th grade, then you can rent a cheap apartment and drive your kid to school for a year or two.

The kids whose parents are looking to game the system are not the majority of the school but they are a significant percentage of the school. I am sure it sucks for the kids who didn’t go to the prep schools or look to game the system but it doesn’t change the fact that it did happen and is continuing to happen today.

You said prep was “required.” It was not. Choose your words more carefully rather than buying into the TJ bashing.

I did not post that prep was required. This is an anonymous board, people with different opinions are going to post and quote posts. Don't assume that you are talking to the same person because you are not.

There are kids who prepped and there are kids who did not. There seem to be folks on both side of the debate that are 100% stuck on one particular line and unable to see the middle ground. There are a few posters who keep screaming that every kid prepped, and that is BS. There are a few posters who claim no one prepped and that there was no cheating on the Quant test, and that is BS. There is plenty of evidence that there are kids who prepped, and that the number of prepped kids increased as people saw that it worked, and that there are prep schools that had test banks that provided an advantage to kids who attended the prep programs. There are also kids who were accepted into TJ who did not attend those prep programs and who did not have advanced access to the tests.

Also, saying that kids prepped and that some used test banks is not bashing TJ. I taught at the University level for 10 years. The Greek Houses had test banks that their members studied out of, it is common knowledge. I enjoyed screwing with those kids because I knew it was happening. It is a fact that test banks exist at many schools, regardless of the level so HS and College. The test administrators for TJ should have been aware of that and adjusted the test just like I did when I taught. There were Professors who didn't adjust their tests and were, essentially, fine with the knowledge that students were cheating in their classes. TJ decided to get rid of the test instead of taking the time to adjust the test. I don't agree with that, I think it is lazy.

Saying that the admissions practices for TJ need to shift is not bashing TJ. It is saying that I think that TJ should reflect the County it is based in. I like the MS distribution of seats. I like that the application no longer takes into consideration extra activities outside of school opportunities available to all kids. I would be fine with letters of recommendations and a test that was re-written every year to avoid the issues with cheating. I think that requirements could be shifted to require honors classes or AAP classes in all core classes, geometry by the end of 8th grade, and a higher GPA.

That is not bashing TJ but wanting to have a program that is accessible to more students and were kids have a chance to participate across the County.

TJ is a regional Governor's School, not a county public works program.

Does every other county that participates in TJ now make seats available on the same basis as FCPS does now, with middle school set-asides?

No one objects when a few schools like Westfield, Hayfield, and South County tend to dominate in athletics, but somehow it's "unfair" and has to be corrected if some middle schools have stronger kids academically.

DP. Gonna address a couple of issues here.

1) Yes, every other county's middle schools are subject to the 1.5% allocation. That's how there are so many students who are attending TJ from Prince William County now. The number used to be in the 10-20s year over year, and now it's closer to 60-70.

2) It's not "unfair" that some middle schools have stronger kids academically. That's the nature of life when you have AAP offerings and centers and magnet programs and the like - and even moreso when you have disparate resources in different areas of the county. It is problematic when you have schools that literally send no students to the county's flagship school for decades - not the least of which is the fact that striving for that flagship school ceases to become part of the culture of that school.

3) Carson, Rocky Run, and Longfellow are still going to send huge numbers of kids to TJ every year - far more than other, less well-represented schools. And they should - they have a larger number of stronger kids. The kids from those schools who are qualified for TJ will be exposed to a much more diverse environment than they would have been regardless of whether or not they get in, because TJ will look a little more like their base school than it used to. Which, in turn, will be better for their overall education.

The thing is they're not stronger academically just have had more outside enrichment which is a different thing.

This is one of the dumbest things ever. “They’re not stronger, only more prepared!” 😂😂😂

I think it makes sense. (See: Goodhart's Law)
Consider two kids, A and B. Both did almost equally well (A got a tiny bit higher) on the test, but A prepped for months and B did not. You would naturally expect B to better if B prepped as much as A did. If they both get in to TJHHS, and they both work equally as hard, B is more likely to succeed, yet A is more likely to get in.

The kid that practices his instrument every day is more likely to get into regional band even over a kid that is more gifted but didn't practice at all. Arguing a variable as the defining difference in spread of outcomes is an old trick. It works the other way, too - as in arguing a variable that is present in one group (inclination to practice, flossing their teeth, etc) and not the other is the reason for their success that can be extrapolated to success going forward based on aptitude for what it takes in that environment to be successful.

[Anonymous]

The dark and ominous spirit of the “prep”, “buy test” poster has been haunting this forum for too long. Would you please leave us alone.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My DC with very similar stats was rejected from Longfellow but I think your child has an excellent chance of being admitted. Good luck!

Did you end up sending your kid to McLean or did you find another school? How is it working out?

We are appalled by the arrogant, dismissive attitude of the school board member about the overcrowding there and not sure we can stomach sending DC there.

Longfellow is a great school. Lot of smart kids and extremely competitive to get into TJ. My child got in last year from Longfellow
For a good or easy chance to get into TJ you can be out of feeder schools

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My DC with very similar stats was rejected from Longfellow but I think your child has an excellent chance of being admitted. Good luck!

Did you end up sending your kid to McLean or did you find another school? How is it working out?

We are appalled by the arrogant, dismissive attitude of the school board member about the overcrowding there and not sure we can stomach sending DC there.

Longfellow is a great school. Lot of smart kids and extremely competitive to get into TJ. My child got in last year from Longfellow
For a good or easy chance to get into TJ you can be out of feeder schools

Isn't that funny, the feeder schools are now the hardest places to get into TJHS from

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have a child at poorly performing MS which, prior to the admission policy change, typically did not have any students admitted to TJ. DC is truly a brilliant and hardworking kid - the top student in honors geometry (near perfect average), acing the rest of their all honors courses, all advanced pass or perfect SOL scores, etc. DC is white and we do not qualify for free/reduced priced meals.

I'm curious to know what the admittance pool looks like at a school like ours? Do we have a shot or are the spots typically offered to high performing students with one or more "experience factors"?

I hope to keep the conversation civil and am genuinely asking out of curiosity. TIA!

One from ours was such an outlier. Real genius even. Don't think they would've stood a chance with the old system though since their family is low-income and wouldn't even consider prep classes that were required to be competitive then.

Prep was never necessary. My two kids and many others did no prep. Stop with those lies.

OP, your kid should do well coming from a low performing school. It’s the kids like yours at high performing schools that are getting rejected.

It is not a lie that kids prepped. Prep programs posted the names of kids who were accepted into TJ and similar schools. And they posted them for many years, you used to be able to look at the roster for many years back.

Were there kids who were accepted who did not prep? Yes. Was there a large percentage of kids who did prep? Yes. By the time they were dropping the Quant test, there were more kids who had participated in prep programs then had not.

The reality is that parents who are very invested in their kids attending TJ will look at what seems to work and replicate that. Prep worked, so you saw that practice grow. The prep now is shifting from the Quant test and to essay prep, people are discussing it and the prep programs, like Currie, are more focused on the writing portion in their write ups. If moving schools seems to work I would guess that you will see more families do that. If you can afford the cost of the prep programs, and they do run in the 10,000-20,000 range for 7th and 8th grade, then you can rent a cheap apartment and drive your kid to school for a year or two.

The kids whose parents are looking to game the system are not the majority of the school but they are a significant percentage of the school. I am sure it sucks for the kids who didn’t go to the prep schools or look to game the system but it doesn’t change the fact that it did happen and is continuing to happen today.

You said prep was “required.” It was not. Choose your words more carefully rather than buying into the TJ bashing.

I did not post that prep was required. This is an anonymous board, people with different opinions are going to post and quote posts. Don't assume that you are talking to the same person because you are not.

There are kids who prepped and there are kids who did not. There seem to be folks on both side of the debate that are 100% stuck on one particular line and unable to see the middle ground. There are a few posters who keep screaming that every kid prepped, and that is BS. There are a few posters who claim no one prepped and that there was no cheating on the Quant test, and that is BS. There is plenty of evidence that there are kids who prepped, and that the number of prepped kids increased as people saw that it worked, and that there are prep schools that had test banks that provided an advantage to kids who attended the prep programs. There are also kids who were accepted into TJ who did not attend those prep programs and who did not have advanced access to the tests.

Also, saying that kids prepped and that some used test banks is not bashing TJ. I taught at the University level for 10 years. The Greek Houses had test banks that their members studied out of, it is common knowledge. I enjoyed screwing with those kids because I knew it was happening. It is a fact that test banks exist at many schools, regardless of the level so HS and College. The test administrators for TJ should have been aware of that and adjusted the test just like I did when I taught. There were Professors who didn't adjust their tests and were, essentially, fine with the knowledge that students were cheating in their classes. TJ decided to get rid of the test instead of taking the time to adjust the test. I don't agree with that, I think it is lazy.

Saying that the admissions practices for TJ need to shift is not bashing TJ. It is saying that I think that TJ should reflect the County it is based in. I like the MS distribution of seats. I like that the application no longer takes into consideration extra activities outside of school opportunities available to all kids. I would be fine with letters of recommendations and a test that was re-written every year to avoid the issues with cheating. I think that requirements could be shifted to require honors classes or AAP classes in all core classes, geometry by the end of 8th grade, and a higher GPA.

That is not bashing TJ but wanting to have a program that is accessible to more students and were kids have a chance to participate across the County.

TJ is a regional Governor's School, not a county public works program.

Does every other county that participates in TJ now make seats available on the same basis as FCPS does now, with middle school set-asides?

No one objects when a few schools like Westfield, Hayfield, and South County tend to dominate in athletics, but somehow it's "unfair" and has to be corrected if some middle schools have stronger kids academically.

DP. Gonna address a couple of issues here.

1) Yes, every other county's middle schools are subject to the 1.5% allocation. That's how there are so many students who are attending TJ from Prince William County now. The number used to be in the 10-20s year over year, and now it's closer to 60-70.

2) It's not "unfair" that some middle schools have stronger kids academically. That's the nature of life when you have AAP offerings and centers and magnet programs and the like - and even moreso when you have disparate resources in different areas of the county. It is problematic when you have schools that literally send no students to the county's flagship school for decades - not the least of which is the fact that striving for that flagship school ceases to become part of the culture of that school.

3) Carson, Rocky Run, and Longfellow are still going to send huge numbers of kids to TJ every year - far more than other, less well-represented schools. And they should - they have a larger number of stronger kids. The kids from those schools who are qualified for TJ will be exposed to a much more diverse environment than they would have been regardless of whether or not they get in, because TJ will look a little more like their base school than it used to. Which, in turn, will be better for their overall education.

The thing is they're not stronger academically just have had more outside enrichment which is a different thing.

This is one of the dumbest things ever. “They’re not stronger, only more prepared!” 😂😂😂

I think it makes sense. (See: Goodhart's Law)
Consider two kids, A and B. Both did almost equally well (A got a tiny bit higher) on the test, but A prepped for months and B did not. You would naturally expect B to better if B prepped as much as A did. If they both get in to TJHHS, and they both work equally as hard, B is more likely to succeed, yet A is more likely to get in.

Consider a different scenario where two kids X, and Y both took the AMC 8 test. X prepped and got 22 questions out of 25 correct, while Y did not prep and only got the first 9 questions correct. You would naturally NOT expect Y to have the same level of problem solving ability as X, who spent months preparing. Here, X represents a score on the high end of the test, while Y represents an average score on the test.

For a test like AMC 8, an unprepped but math gifted kid could score around a 14-18. A prepped but ungifted kid is unlikely to score much above a 15. You could reasonably argue that if kid A gets a 16 and kid B gets a 14, prep might obscure which kid is more talented at math. If, on the other hand, kid A gets a 9 and kid B gets a 22, then kid B is certainly much stronger at math than kid A. A 22 is usually around the top 1% cutoff. Considering that only kids who are strong at math take the AMC 8 in the first place, and many kids out there are doing prep/AOPS/RSM, it's still quite an achievement to be in the top 1% of that already self selected group.

, I've taught math to hundreds of kids, and prepared many for math competitions.. almost every single high scorer has been doing math 'on the side' (aka outside of school) for many years

So most of the kids you've taught math to outside school have been taught math outside school? What a shocker.

By the way I agree that there aren't a significant number of Goodwill huntings, but I think there are a significant number of students who would have made the cutoff had they prepped. By the way, why is everyone talking about the AMC8? Is that the new TJHSST? What's the cutoff score?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My DC with very similar stats was rejected from Longfellow but I think your child has an excellent chance of being admitted. Good luck!

Did you end up sending your kid to McLean or did you find another school? How is it working out?

We are appalled by the arrogant, dismissive attitude of the school board member about the overcrowding there and not sure we can stomach sending DC there.

Longfellow is a great school. Lot of smart kids and extremely competitive to get into TJ. My child got in last year from Longfellow
For a good or easy chance to get into TJ you can be out of feeder schools

Isn't that funny, the feeder schools are now the hardest places to get into TJHS from

Not funny. More qualified students are not getting a fair shot at TJ and other students who are leaving after a year or two are taking up spots that will never be filled.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My DC with very similar stats was rejected from Longfellow but I think your child has an excellent chance of being admitted. Good luck!

Did you end up sending your kid to McLean or did you find another school? How is it working out?

We are appalled by the arrogant, dismissive attitude of the school board member about the overcrowding there and not sure we can stomach sending DC there.

Longfellow is a great school. Lot of smart kids and extremely competitive to get into TJ. My child got in last year from Longfellow
For a good or easy chance to get into TJ you can be out of feeder schools

Isn't that funny, the feeder schools are now the hardest places to get into TJHS from

Because of the quota system lot of deserving students are not getting admitted which is disappointing for the kid and parents. They had worked so hard all year long. Some kids from other schools who got in are surprised they were the top 1.5%. Don’t know if this is funny for you

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I have a child at poorly performing MS which, prior to the admission policy change, typically did not have any students admitted to TJ. DC is truly a brilliant and hardworking kid - the top student in honors geometry (near perfect average), acing the rest of their all honors courses, all advanced pass or perfect SOL scores, etc. DC is white and we do not qualify for free/reduced priced meals.

I'm curious to know what the admittance pool looks like at a school like ours? Do we have a shot or are the spots typically offered to high performing students with one or more "experience factors"?

I hope to keep the conversation civil and am genuinely asking out of curiosity. TIA!

So less wealthy schools rank lower?