Who are the kids that get into TJ from the lower ranking middle schools?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There are plenty of memos from a prep company to parents explaining the winning formula under the new admissions system. These documents typically include a tiered list of which middle schools have an applicant the best possible shot. It also might include a detailed explanation of FRMs and what documents a school system can legally require the custodial parent to submit.

I’m assuming that the TJ Admissions Office is already aware that admissions can be ensured with a little bit of creativity and bending of ethics.

Could you post one of these memos? I think the FARMS advice was just something that people figured could have happened, so they assume it did happen.
While there is evidence of providing sample test questions, and helping with essays, there is no evidence they advised people to say yes to FARMS. If this is the case we would have seen lots of people removed from TJ.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I know the answer to this one! I'm a 2022 TJ alum who randomly stumbled across this thread while looking for something else. I came from a lower-ranking middle school in Fairfax County as one of a very small number of students. I think the biggest problem at these schools is the lack of enrichment opportunities. When I went, my middle school only had MathCounts and Science Olympiad (I did both). To my knowledge, neither of those exist now -- it's gotten even worse since the pandemic. Going to TJ helped me realize just how many more opportunities existed to kids who came from different areas; I didn't even know you could do MUN or neuroscience competitions in middle school! There are plenty of bright kids at these schools who would love more programs to learn outside the classroom, and I really wish FCPS would invest more heavily toward expanding opportunities in these places.

Local middle school is pretty high ranking, and it has only this year had both of those, while in previous years they could not find a faculty sponsor for Science Olympiad despite parent interest. Not sure about other activities, but pretty sure there is no neuroscience. I have seen robotics and chess clubs.

+1
We’re at one of the middle range pyramids and as far as I know don’t have stuff like that either in MS. Our ES definitely did not even have science Olympiad and it was an AAP center.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I know the answer to this one! I'm a 2022 TJ alum who randomly stumbled across this thread while looking for something else. I came from a lower-ranking middle school in Fairfax County as one of a very small number of students. I think the biggest problem at these schools is the lack of enrichment opportunities. When I went, my middle school only had MathCounts and Science Olympiad (I did both). To my knowledge, neither of those exist now -- it's gotten even worse since the pandemic. Going to TJ helped me realize just how many more opportunities existed to kids who came from different areas; I didn't even know you could do MUN or neuroscience competitions in middle school! There are plenty of bright kids at these schools who would love more programs to learn outside the classroom, and I really wish FCPS would invest more heavily toward expanding opportunities in these places.

Local middle school is pretty high ranking, and it has only this year had both of those, while in previous years they could not find a faculty sponsor for Science Olympiad despite parent interest. Not sure about other activities, but pretty sure there is no neuroscience. I have seen robotics and chess clubs.

+1
We’re at one of the middle range pyramids and as far as I know don’t have stuff like that either in MS. Our ES definitely did not even have science Olympiad and it was an AAP center.

I wasn't aware Science Olympiad was an elementary school event at all. Did they have Odyssey of the Mind or Math Olympiad?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I know the answer to this one! I'm a 2022 TJ alum who randomly stumbled across this thread while looking for something else. I came from a lower-ranking middle school in Fairfax County as one of a very small number of students. I think the biggest problem at these schools is the lack of enrichment opportunities. When I went, my middle school only had MathCounts and Science Olympiad (I did both). To my knowledge, neither of those exist now -- it's gotten even worse since the pandemic. Going to TJ helped me realize just how many more opportunities existed to kids who came from different areas; I didn't even know you could do MUN or neuroscience competitions in middle school! There are plenty of bright kids at these schools who would love more programs to learn outside the classroom, and I really wish FCPS would invest more heavily toward expanding opportunities in these places.

Local middle school is pretty high ranking, and it has only this year had both of those, while in previous years they could not find a faculty sponsor for Science Olympiad despite parent interest. Not sure about other activities, but pretty sure there is no neuroscience. I have seen robotics and chess clubs.

+1
We’re at one of the middle range pyramids and as far as I know don’t have stuff like that either in MS. Our ES definitely did not even have science Olympiad and it was an AAP center.

I wasn't aware Science Olympiad was an elementary school event at all. Did they have Odyssey of the Mind or Math Olympiad?

Sorry - Odyssey of the Mind was what I was thinking of re: ES. But no they did not have that nor Math Olympiad if that’s an ES thing too.

[Anonymous]

Math Olympiad is one of the more common ones, also called MOEMS.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Math Olympiad is one of the more common ones, also called MOEMS.

It's also kind of a crapshoot as to whether a school will offer it. Title I LLIV program did have MOEMS. Non Title I center did not.

To be perfectly honest, it's not a particularly good math contest for anyone other than kids completely new to problem solving. If your school doesn't offer it, you're not missing much.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Math Olympiad is one of the more common ones, also called MOEMS.

It's also kind of a crapshoot as to whether a school will offer it. Title I LLIV program did have MOEMS. Non Title I center did not.

To be perfectly honest, it's not a particularly good math contest for anyone other than kids completely new to problem solving. If your school doesn't offer it, you're not missing much.

Our school set up coaching, so kids could meet an hour a week and learn some math and problem solving.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Math Olympiad is one of the more common ones, also called MOEMS.

It's also kind of a crapshoot as to whether a school will offer it. Title I LLIV program did have MOEMS. Non Title I center did not.

To be perfectly honest, it's not a particularly good math contest for anyone other than kids completely new to problem solving. If your school doesn't offer it, you're not missing much.

Our school set up coaching, so kids could meet an hour a week and learn some math and problem solving.

Does TJ look at MathCounts/Science Olympiad/AMC 8/10 achievements? Most kids are prepped outside to attend this competition. Many MS don't even have after school activities (still requires to pay money). If you pick list of top achievers almot all kdis are
having outside enrichment. In my MS, all kids who were placed at state level had outside enrichment. Even if MS has after school classes, 8-10 1-hour long classes can not posisble bring out the best in kids that makes top scorer.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Math Olympiad is one of the more common ones, also called MOEMS.

It's also kind of a crapshoot as to whether a school will offer it. Title I LLIV program did have MOEMS. Non Title I center did not.

To be perfectly honest, it's not a particularly good math contest for anyone other than kids completely new to problem solving. If your school doesn't offer it, you're not missing much.

Our school set up coaching, so kids could meet an hour a week and learn some math and problem solving.

Does TJ look at MathCounts/Science Olympiad/AMC 8/10 achievements? Most kids are prepped outside to attend this competition. Many MS don't even have after school activities (still requires to pay money). If you pick list of top achievers almot all kdis are
having outside enrichment. In my MS, all kids who were placed at state level had outside enrichment. Even if MS has after school classes, 8-10 1-hour long classes can not posisble bring out the best in kids that makes top scorer.

Analogous to kids competing in area travel soccer or other sports tournaments did not become skilled primarily from their school gym class. It takes a lot of outside school work to do well in math contests; school plays a minimal role.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have a child at poorly performing MS which, prior to the admission policy change, typically did not have any students admitted to TJ. DC is truly a brilliant and hardworking kid - the top student in honors geometry (near perfect average), acing the rest of their all honors courses, all advanced pass or perfect SOL scores, etc. DC is white and we do not qualify for free/reduced priced meals.

I'm curious to know what the admittance pool looks like at a school like ours? Do we have a shot or are the spots typically offered to high performing students with one or more "experience factors"?

I hope to keep the conversation civil and am genuinely asking out of curiosity. TIA!

One from ours was such an outlier. Real genius even. Don't think they would've stood a chance with the old system though since their family is low-income and wouldn't even consider prep classes that were required to be competitive then.

Prep was never necessary. My two kids and many others did no prep. Stop with those lies.

OP, your kid should do well coming from a low performing school. It’s the kids like yours at high performing schools that are getting rejected.

It is not a lie that kids prepped. Prep programs posted the names of kids who were accepted into TJ and similar schools. And they posted them for many years, you used to be able to look at the roster for many years back.

Were there kids who were accepted who did not prep? Yes. Was there a large percentage of kids who did prep? Yes. By the time they were dropping the Quant test, there were more kids who had participated in prep programs then had not.

The reality is that parents who are very invested in their kids attending TJ will look at what seems to work and replicate that. Prep worked, so you saw that practice grow. The prep now is shifting from the Quant test and to essay prep, people are discussing it and the prep programs, like Currie, are more focused on the writing portion in their write ups. If moving schools seems to work I would guess that you will see more families do that. If you can afford the cost of the prep programs, and they do run in the 10,000-20,000 range for 7th and 8th grade, then you can rent a cheap apartment and drive your kid to school for a year or two.

The kids whose parents are looking to game the system are not the majority of the school but they are a significant percentage of the school. I am sure it sucks for the kids who didn’t go to the prep schools or look to game the system but it doesn’t change the fact that it did happen and is continuing to happen today.

You said prep was “required.” It was not. Choose your words more carefully rather than buying into the TJ bashing.

I did not post that prep was required. This is an anonymous board, people with different opinions are going to post and quote posts. Don't assume that you are talking to the same person because you are not.

There are kids who prepped and there are kids who did not. There seem to be folks on both side of the debate that are 100% stuck on one particular line and unable to see the middle ground. There are a few posters who keep screaming that every kid prepped, and that is BS. There are a few posters who claim no one prepped and that there was no cheating on the Quant test, and that is BS. There is plenty of evidence that there are kids who prepped, and that the number of prepped kids increased as people saw that it worked, and that there are prep schools that had test banks that provided an advantage to kids who attended the prep programs. There are also kids who were accepted into TJ who did not attend those prep programs and who did not have advanced access to the tests.

Also, saying that kids prepped and that some used test banks is not bashing TJ. I taught at the University level for 10 years. The Greek Houses had test banks that their members studied out of, it is common knowledge. I enjoyed screwing with those kids because I knew it was happening. It is a fact that test banks exist at many schools, regardless of the level so HS and College. The test administrators for TJ should have been aware of that and adjusted the test just like I did when I taught. There were Professors who didn't adjust their tests and were, essentially, fine with the knowledge that students were cheating in their classes. TJ decided to get rid of the test instead of taking the time to adjust the test. I don't agree with that, I think it is lazy.

Saying that the admissions practices for TJ need to shift is not bashing TJ. It is saying that I think that TJ should reflect the County it is based in. I like the MS distribution of seats. I like that the application no longer takes into consideration extra activities outside of school opportunities available to all kids. I would be fine with letters of recommendations and a test that was re-written every year to avoid the issues with cheating. I think that requirements could be shifted to require honors classes or AAP classes in all core classes, geometry by the end of 8th grade, and a higher GPA.

That is not bashing TJ but wanting to have a program that is accessible to more students and were kids have a chance to participate across the County.

TJ is a regional Governor's School, not a county public works program.

Does every other county that participates in TJ now make seats available on the same basis as FCPS does now, with middle school set-asides?

No one objects when a few schools like Westfield, Hayfield, and South County tend to dominate in athletics, but somehow it's "unfair" and has to be corrected if some middle schools have stronger kids academically.

DP. Gonna address a couple of issues here.

1) Yes, every other county's middle schools are subject to the 1.5% allocation. That's how there are so many students who are attending TJ from Prince William County now. The number used to be in the 10-20s year over year, and now it's closer to 60-70.

2) It's not "unfair" that some middle schools have stronger kids academically. That's the nature of life when you have AAP offerings and centers and magnet programs and the like - and even moreso when you have disparate resources in different areas of the county. It is problematic when you have schools that literally send no students to the county's flagship school for decades - not the least of which is the fact that striving for that flagship school ceases to become part of the culture of that school.

3) Carson, Rocky Run, and Longfellow are still going to send huge numbers of kids to TJ every year - far more than other, less well-represented schools. And they should - they have a larger number of stronger kids. The kids from those schools who are qualified for TJ will be exposed to a much more diverse environment than they would have been regardless of whether or not they get in, because TJ will look a little more like their base school than it used to. Which, in turn, will be better for their overall education.

The thing is they're not stronger academically just have had more outside enrichment which is a different thing.

This is one of the dumbest things ever. “They’re not stronger, only more prepared!” 😂😂😂

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have a child at poorly performing MS which, prior to the admission policy change, typically did not have any students admitted to TJ. DC is truly a brilliant and hardworking kid - the top student in honors geometry (near perfect average), acing the rest of their all honors courses, all advanced pass or perfect SOL scores, etc. DC is white and we do not qualify for free/reduced priced meals.

I'm curious to know what the admittance pool looks like at a school like ours? Do we have a shot or are the spots typically offered to high performing students with one or more "experience factors"?

I hope to keep the conversation civil and am genuinely asking out of curiosity. TIA!

One from ours was such an outlier. Real genius even. Don't think they would've stood a chance with the old system though since their family is low-income and wouldn't even consider prep classes that were required to be competitive then.

Yes, these kids are so amazing and talented but would've never stood a chance with the old system because of how prep seemed to have such a huge impact on admissions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Math Olympiad is one of the more common ones, also called MOEMS.

It's also kind of a crapshoot as to whether a school will offer it. Title I LLIV program did have MOEMS. Non Title I center did not.

To be perfectly honest, it's not a particularly good math contest for anyone other than kids completely new to problem solving. If your school doesn't offer it, you're not missing much.

Our school set up coaching, so kids could meet an hour a week and learn some math and problem solving.

Does TJ look at MathCounts/Science Olympiad/AMC 8/10 achievements? Most kids are prepped outside to attend this competition. Many MS don't even have after school activities (still requires to pay money). If you pick list of top achievers almot all kdis are
having outside enrichment. In my MS, all kids who were placed at state level had outside enrichment. Even if MS has after school classes, 8-10 1-hour long classes can not posisble bring out the best in kids that makes top scorer.

Analogous to kids competing in area travel soccer or other sports tournaments did not become skilled primarily from their school gym class. It takes a lot of outside school work to do well in math contests; school plays a minimal role.

This is true. Have seen kids who have been good (all of them had outside enrichment at early age) at this competions but academically average in FCPS. Hence it makes sense if TJ admissions does not take these achievements into consideration for sack of equity.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have a child at poorly performing MS which, prior to the admission policy change, typically did not have any students admitted to TJ. DC is truly a brilliant and hardworking kid - the top student in honors geometry (near perfect average), acing the rest of their all honors courses, all advanced pass or perfect SOL scores, etc. DC is white and we do not qualify for free/reduced priced meals.

I'm curious to know what the admittance pool looks like at a school like ours? Do we have a shot or are the spots typically offered to high performing students with one or more "experience factors"?

I hope to keep the conversation civil and am genuinely asking out of curiosity. TIA!

One from ours was such an outlier. Real genius even. Don't think they would've stood a chance with the old system though since their family is low-income and wouldn't even consider prep classes that were required to be competitive then.

Yes, these kids are so amazing and talented but would've never stood a chance with the old system because of how prep seemed to have such a huge impact on admissions.

If that kid was outlier, would have done welll under any admission process. Now, 'experience factors' is influencing the outcome.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Math Olympiad is one of the more common ones, also called MOEMS.

It's also kind of a crapshoot as to whether a school will offer it. Title I LLIV program did have MOEMS. Non Title I center did not.

To be perfectly honest, it's not a particularly good math contest for anyone other than kids completely new to problem solving. If your school doesn't offer it, you're not missing much.

Our school set up coaching, so kids could meet an hour a week and learn some math and problem solving.

Does TJ look at MathCounts/Science Olympiad/AMC 8/10 achievements? Most kids are prepped outside to attend this competition. Many MS don't even have after school activities (still requires to pay money). If you pick list of top achievers almot all kdis are
having outside enrichment. In my MS, all kids who were placed at state level had outside enrichment. Even if MS has after school classes, 8-10 1-hour long classes can not posisble bring out the best in kids that makes top scorer.

Analogous to kids competing in area travel soccer or other sports tournaments did not become skilled primarily from their school gym class. It takes a lot of outside school work to do well in math contests; school plays a minimal role.

This is true. Have seen kids who have been good (all of them had outside enrichment at early age) at this competions but academically average in FCPS. Hence it makes sense if TJ admissions does not take these achievements into consideration for sack of equity.

Actually most kids who shine in academic competitions are doing excellent in terms of grades in school. Think about it, most of these kids are likely not challenged/bored in school classes so they look for harder things to do outside of school. Sure, there are some kids who perhaps only love 1-2 things and don't like doing anything else, but they'd be exceptions, not the norm. The old process made sense because it measured BOTH school academics (gpa) AND a reasonable level of thinking/problem solving ability (the quant test). You had to have both to get in. Now, one can get in with minimal problem solving skills.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have a child at poorly performing MS which, prior to the admission policy change, typically did not have any students admitted to TJ. DC is truly a brilliant and hardworking kid - the top student in honors geometry (near perfect average), acing the rest of their all honors courses, all advanced pass or perfect SOL scores, etc. DC is white and we do not qualify for free/reduced priced meals.

I'm curious to know what the admittance pool looks like at a school like ours? Do we have a shot or are the spots typically offered to high performing students with one or more "experience factors"?

I hope to keep the conversation civil and am genuinely asking out of curiosity. TIA!

One from ours was such an outlier. Real genius even. Don't think they would've stood a chance with the old system though since their family is low-income and wouldn't even consider prep classes that were required to be competitive then.

Prep was never necessary. My two kids and many others did no prep. Stop with those lies.

OP, your kid should do well coming from a low performing school. It’s the kids like yours at high performing schools that are getting rejected.

It is not a lie that kids prepped. Prep programs posted the names of kids who were accepted into TJ and similar schools. And they posted them for many years, you used to be able to look at the roster for many years back.

Were there kids who were accepted who did not prep? Yes. Was there a large percentage of kids who did prep? Yes. By the time they were dropping the Quant test, there were more kids who had participated in prep programs then had not.

The reality is that parents who are very invested in their kids attending TJ will look at what seems to work and replicate that. Prep worked, so you saw that practice grow. The prep now is shifting from the Quant test and to essay prep, people are discussing it and the prep programs, like Currie, are more focused on the writing portion in their write ups. If moving schools seems to work I would guess that you will see more families do that. If you can afford the cost of the prep programs, and they do run in the 10,000-20,000 range for 7th and 8th grade, then you can rent a cheap apartment and drive your kid to school for a year or two.

The kids whose parents are looking to game the system are not the majority of the school but they are a significant percentage of the school. I am sure it sucks for the kids who didn’t go to the prep schools or look to game the system but it doesn’t change the fact that it did happen and is continuing to happen today.

You said prep was “required.” It was not. Choose your words more carefully rather than buying into the TJ bashing.

I did not post that prep was required. This is an anonymous board, people with different opinions are going to post and quote posts. Don't assume that you are talking to the same person because you are not.

There are kids who prepped and there are kids who did not. There seem to be folks on both side of the debate that are 100% stuck on one particular line and unable to see the middle ground. There are a few posters who keep screaming that every kid prepped, and that is BS. There are a few posters who claim no one prepped and that there was no cheating on the Quant test, and that is BS. There is plenty of evidence that there are kids who prepped, and that the number of prepped kids increased as people saw that it worked, and that there are prep schools that had test banks that provided an advantage to kids who attended the prep programs. There are also kids who were accepted into TJ who did not attend those prep programs and who did not have advanced access to the tests.

Also, saying that kids prepped and that some used test banks is not bashing TJ. I taught at the University level for 10 years. The Greek Houses had test banks that their members studied out of, it is common knowledge. I enjoyed screwing with those kids because I knew it was happening. It is a fact that test banks exist at many schools, regardless of the level so HS and College. The test administrators for TJ should have been aware of that and adjusted the test just like I did when I taught. There were Professors who didn't adjust their tests and were, essentially, fine with the knowledge that students were cheating in their classes. TJ decided to get rid of the test instead of taking the time to adjust the test. I don't agree with that, I think it is lazy.

Saying that the admissions practices for TJ need to shift is not bashing TJ. It is saying that I think that TJ should reflect the County it is based in. I like the MS distribution of seats. I like that the application no longer takes into consideration extra activities outside of school opportunities available to all kids. I would be fine with letters of recommendations and a test that was re-written every year to avoid the issues with cheating. I think that requirements could be shifted to require honors classes or AAP classes in all core classes, geometry by the end of 8th grade, and a higher GPA.

That is not bashing TJ but wanting to have a program that is accessible to more students and were kids have a chance to participate across the County.

TJ is a regional Governor's School, not a county public works program.

Does every other county that participates in TJ now make seats available on the same basis as FCPS does now, with middle school set-asides?

No one objects when a few schools like Westfield, Hayfield, and South County tend to dominate in athletics, but somehow it's "unfair" and has to be corrected if some middle schools have stronger kids academically.

DP. Gonna address a couple of issues here.

1) Yes, every other county's middle schools are subject to the 1.5% allocation. That's how there are so many students who are attending TJ from Prince William County now. The number used to be in the 10-20s year over year, and now it's closer to 60-70.

2) It's not "unfair" that some middle schools have stronger kids academically. That's the nature of life when you have AAP offerings and centers and magnet programs and the like - and even moreso when you have disparate resources in different areas of the county. It is problematic when you have schools that literally send no students to the county's flagship school for decades - not the least of which is the fact that striving for that flagship school ceases to become part of the culture of that school.

3) Carson, Rocky Run, and Longfellow are still going to send huge numbers of kids to TJ every year - far more than other, less well-represented schools. And they should - they have a larger number of stronger kids. The kids from those schools who are qualified for TJ will be exposed to a much more diverse environment than they would have been regardless of whether or not they get in, because TJ will look a little more like their base school than it used to. Which, in turn, will be better for their overall education.

The thing is they're not stronger academically just have had more outside enrichment which is a different thing.

This is one of the dumbest things ever. “They’re not stronger, only more prepared!” 😂😂😂

I think it makes sense. (See: Goodhart's Law)
Consider two kids, A and B. Both did almost equally well (A got a tiny bit higher) on the test, but A prepped for months and B did not. You would naturally expect B to better if B prepped as much as A did. If they both get in to TJHHS, and they both work equally as hard, B is more likely to succeed, yet A is more likely to get in.