Removing and Renaming Confederate Statues, Schools, Streets, etc: Why?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For the same reason Germany and Italy don’t have Hitler Boulevard or Mussolini Drive.

+1000
This is everything. End of thread right there.

I want to push back a bit and say there's actually more. The premise of the OP is that these names were once OK but no longer are. These names were never OK. This is not like the town of East Hamburg, NY, deciding to rename itself "Orchard Park" during WWI. Or french fries becoming "Freedom Fries" during the first Gulf War. There was never a time when Robert E. Lee was not a polarizing figure and a symbol of hate and racism.

[phone]

[Anonymous]

NPR recently had a story about a small town that wanted to name a building after their long-time superintendent of schools, Bob Lee. Then it came out that his full name was Robert Edward Lee. Even though Bob Lee had been a champion of desegregation and had no relation to the historical Robert E. Lee, this gave the townspeople pause.

The OP is trying to pretend that something similar is happening with the VA streets and monuments -- it's somehow an unfortunate coincidence that names that once were entirely unobjectionable are now tainted. That just isn't the truth. These names were objectionable the day they were bestowed. And the people doing the naming knew exactly what they were doing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The presumably liberal "good" posters are not covering themselves in glory on this thread. Advocating for splitting up the country, regulating speech, etc.

Smh

Hate speech is not protected.
Read a book than hasn't been banned yet - it was the South that wanted to split the country by leaving the union.

Keeping shaking that head though - may engage and kickstart what is inside it.

So you are just skipping over all the embarrassing -for-liberals posts. I get it.

I’m not sure if it’s irony but considering the current political trends and the ways in which Republicans are working to co-opt state legislatures it would be the progressive states of the North and West that would be the ones seceding from the United States, rather than the Southern states. History is written by the victors, but the “traitors” technically might be the leftists who tried to secede rather that the right-wingers who end up in control of the US and look at Hungary as a role model.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is shameful we ever had statues to those treasonous traitors. The reckoning is long overdue.

They weren't treasonous traitors. Stick to facts.

I don't mind taking down the statues but there's a lot of recent revisionist history from both sides.

No there is not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The presumably liberal "good" posters are not covering themselves in glory on this thread. Advocating for splitting up the country, regulating speech, etc.

Smh

Nope. It’s the “state’s rights” apologists who are bringing the issue up — randomly accusing the other commenters of WANTING to split up the country. Very Tucker Carlson-twists.

Also: SMH — but for different reasons.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is shameful we ever had statues to those treasonous traitors. The reckoning is long overdue.

They weren't treasonous traitors. Stick to facts.

I don't mind taking down the statues but there's a lot of recent revisionist history from both sides.

Robert Lee was nothing more than an illegal racist warlord who betrayed his country to wage a campaign of racial terror and destruction on half our population. His intentions were pure evil and countless patriots died to defeat this bloody menace. Also, the fact that his racist fan base called him "general" doesn't actually make him one. He led an illegal insurrection. That's like the Oath Keepers giving themselves fake military titles or the KFC guy calling himself "colonel." And you want to put up a statue for THAT GUY?!

The fact that long, nuanced biographies have been written about Lee, to understand and appraise rather than venerate him, suggests that you might want to shelve your commentary for a while until you can sound like something smarter than an angry teenager.

Statues and street names are meant to honor people, not to understand or appraise them. We shouldn't honor these people.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is shameful we ever had statues to those treasonous traitors. The reckoning is long overdue.

They weren't treasonous traitors. Stick to facts.

I don't mind taking down the statues but there's a lot of recent revisionist history from both sides.

Robert Lee was nothing more than an illegal racist warlord who betrayed his country to wage a campaign of racial terror and destruction on half our population. His intentions were pure evil and countless patriots died to defeat this bloody menace. Also, the fact that his racist fan base called him "general" doesn't actually make him one. He led an illegal insurrection. That's like the Oath Keepers giving themselves fake military titles or the KFC guy calling himself "colonel." And you want to put up a statue for THAT GUY?!

The fact that long, nuanced biographies have been written about Lee, to understand and appraise rather than venerate him, suggests that you might want to shelve your commentary for a while until you can sound like something smarter than an angry teenager.

Statues and street names are meant to honor people, not to understand or appraise them. We shouldn't honor these people.

Correct.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is shameful we ever had statues to those treasonous traitors. The reckoning is long overdue.

They weren't treasonous traitors. Stick to facts.

I don't mind taking down the statues but there's a lot of recent revisionist history from both sides.

Robert Lee was nothing more than an illegal racist warlord who betrayed his country to wage a campaign of racial terror and destruction on half our population. His intentions were pure evil and countless patriots died to defeat this bloody menace. Also, the fact that his racist fan base called him "general" doesn't actually make him one. He led an illegal insurrection. That's like the Oath Keepers giving themselves fake military titles or the KFC guy calling himself "colonel." And you want to put up a statue for THAT GUY?!

The fact that long, nuanced biographies have been written about Lee, to understand and appraise rather than venerate him, suggests that you might want to shelve your commentary for a while until you can sound like something smarter than an angry teenager.

Statues and street names are meant to honor people, not to understand or appraise them. We shouldn't honor these people.

And the reason people want to honor confederate figures is not nuanced.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is shameful we ever had statues to those treasonous traitors. The reckoning is long overdue.

They weren't treasonous traitors. Stick to facts.

I don't mind taking down the statues but there's a lot of recent revisionist history from both sides.

Robert Lee was nothing more than an illegal racist warlord who betrayed his country to wage a campaign of racial terror and destruction on half our population. His intentions were pure evil and countless patriots died to defeat this bloody menace. Also, the fact that his racist fan base called him "general" doesn't actually make him one. He led an illegal insurrection. That's like the Oath Keepers giving themselves fake military titles or the KFC guy calling himself "colonel." And you want to put up a statue for THAT GUY?!

The fact that long, nuanced biographies have been written about Lee, to understand and appraise rather than venerate him, suggests that you might want to shelve your commentary for a while until you can sound like something smarter than an angry teenager.

Statues and street names are meant to honor people, not to understand or appraise them. We shouldn't honor these people.

We probably shouldn’t put any people in a pedestal, at least not in this country.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For the same reason Germany and Italy don’t have Hitler Boulevard or Mussolini Drive.

+1000
This is everything. End of thread right there.

I want to push back a bit and say there's actually more. The premise of the OP is that these names were once OK but no longer are. These names were never OK. This is not like the town of East Hamburg, NY, deciding to rename itself "Orchard Park" during WWI. Or french fries becoming "Freedom Fries" during the first Gulf War. There was never a time when Robert E. Lee was not a polarizing figure and a symbol of hate and racism.

[phone]

Ah, but there is the fact that Germany had the Nurenberg trials. What does U.S. do but welcome the traitors back into Congress.

[Anonymous]

*Nuremberg

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is shameful we ever had statues to those treasonous traitors. The reckoning is long overdue.

They weren't treasonous traitors. Stick to facts.

I don't mind taking down the statues but there's a lot of recent revisionist history from both sides.

Robert Lee was nothing more than an illegal racist warlord who betrayed his country to wage a campaign of racial terror and destruction on half our population. His intentions were pure evil and countless patriots died to defeat this bloody menace. Also, the fact that his racist fan base called him "general" doesn't actually make him one. He led an illegal insurrection. That's like the Oath Keepers giving themselves fake military titles or the KFC guy calling himself "colonel." And you want to put up a statue for THAT GUY?!

The fact that long, nuanced biographies have been written about Lee, to understand and appraise rather than venerate him, suggests that you might want to shelve your commentary for a while until you can sound like something smarter than an angry teenager.

Countless books have also been written about Hitler trying to "understand and appraise" every corner of his evil mind. So that doesn't change the fact that Lee was an illegal racist warlord who betrayed his country and waged a bloody campaign of terror on Black people. And those other "biographies" that depict Lee as a "worthy leader" are the same ones that nostalgize the antebellum South more generally as a time of "grace" and "honor."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I personally support keeping them, not because I stand for what they supported, but it’s an influential piece of history that is many ways unique to Virginia and a reminder of how far we’ve came.

+1. Like it or not, it is part of our history. The bad has to be recognized as well as the good.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There’s a reason I chose VA as opposed to DC or MD when moving to this area from Arkansas. I felt as if I would feel least home sick and would be able to retain a bit of my culture from my hometown to my second home here. We need to look ahead, not backwards.

+1000

So your nostalgia outweighs the insult and indignities felt by so many, particularly black people, when we see these street names and statues? My DH’s mother knows a story of a great+ grandmother who had to watch her mother get sold on an auction block. My great+ grandfather escaped slavery, with his brother who went back to rescue someone else, never to be seen again. I was incredibly close with my great grandmother who was raised by former slaves. It was not that long ago and it still hurts and is still raw. Further educate yourselves. Understand the Middle Passage. Read the Slave Narratives. Encourage knowledge though correct (and not always comfortable) history education, museums, articles, etc.

Thank you for sharing your family’s stories — that emphasize just how recent and, yes, how raw, these horrors are. It still shocks me when I think that as a child, I realize that for my grandparents and even for my Mom, many of the older people of their own childhoods would have been the children of slaves, and some would have been enslaved themselves. It’s chilling how many people celebrate brutality as nostalgia.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I personally support keeping them, not because I stand for what they supported, but it’s an influential piece of history that is many ways unique to Virginia and a reminder of how far we’ve came.

+1. Like it or not, it is part of our history. The bad has to be recognized as well as the good.

Then create a Museum or Traitors and move the stuff there