Why aren’t art classes pass/fail?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My high schooler earned all except in art. The teacher said she only gives As to students whose art is outstanding.

Why shouldn’t classes like art, music, and PE be pass/fail?

Yeah we have already been burnt, though luckily in middle school. Important to avoid teachers who have an inflated ego and try to take it out on kids. Interestingly ours was also an art teacher!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Art, PE and Music elective classes should be pass/fail in high school. There is no reason to grade those classes. Students are required to take them as electives to graduate. Some kids are lucky because they have a natural talent or affinity for one or more of those areas, but for the rest of us, it really sucks to be graded. Better for kids to have exposure to these subjects than resent them because they get graded. However, AP Music Theory, AP Art History etc., are truly academic classes and of course should be graded.

Baloney. My kids are both extremely talented artists. But they didn't just naturally become talented. They worked incredibly hard and have put in hundreds and hundreds of hours, have taken classes, etc. Art should absolutely be graded. Kids who are good in math aren't just naturally good. They work dang hard at it. I'm not saying there isn't some natural gifting in any of these areas. But it's what you do with it that matters. PE, music, electives are all the same. The kids who stand out, who really stand out and earn the A's, they earned those A's. It's not like they were naturally bestowed with ability that came easy. They worked hard. In fact, my daughter has worked so hard in art, as well as many other classes, that she's been offered a spot in Yale's art program.

NP. Some kids are definitely naturally gifted at art, math, whatever. Kids shouldn’t be graded in art for just talent, they should be graded on metrics like applying the concepts they’ve learned, technique, following the assignment, etc.

When I hear arguments like OP’s, it reminds me of kids complaining about learning math. “When will I ever use this?” Art, music, math, history, language: all of it comes together to create a fully-formed, educated adult. It’s all important.

Here’s the thing: the teacher is seemingly NOT grading based on following instructions, applying concepts, etc. She is grading based on appearance/art. And that’s not cool. This is based on what she tells students.

This is a bad art teacher issue, not an art classes should be pass/fail issue.

Disagree.

Gpa matters, and academic colleges shouldn’t care how a kid did in art or pe. College students are not required to take art or pe in college. It’s required in HS. Fine. Then make it pass/fail.

p

Many of the highly selective colleges do this for you-- they have their own way of calculating GPA, and so recalculate during the review process. E.g., they don't count the PE grades, and perhaps other electives as well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Art, PE and Music elective classes should be pass/fail in high school. There is no reason to grade those classes. Students are required to take them as electives to graduate. Some kids are lucky because they have a natural talent or affinity for one or more of those areas, but for the rest of us, it really sucks to be graded. Better for kids to have exposure to these subjects than resent them because they get graded. However, AP Music Theory, AP Art History etc., are truly academic classes and of course should be graded.

Baloney. My kids are both extremely talented artists. But they didn't just naturally become talented. They worked incredibly hard and have put in hundreds and hundreds of hours, have taken classes, etc. Art should absolutely be graded. Kids who are good in math aren't just naturally good. They work dang hard at it. I'm not saying there isn't some natural gifting in any of these areas. But it's what you do with it that matters. PE, music, electives are all the same. The kids who stand out, who really stand out and earn the A's, they earned those A's. It's not like they were naturally bestowed with ability that came easy. They worked hard. In fact, my daughter has worked so hard in art, as well as many other classes, that she's been offered a spot in Yale's art program.

NP. Some kids are definitely naturally gifted at art, math, whatever. Kids shouldn’t be graded in art for just talent, they should be graded on metrics like applying the concepts they’ve learned, technique, following the assignment, etc.

When I hear arguments like OP’s, it reminds me of kids complaining about learning math. “When will I ever use this?” Art, music, math, history, language: all of it comes together to create a fully-formed, educated adult. It’s all important.

I don't know. I hear what you're saying, but at the same time, we put *so* much pressure on high school kids already. They're stress out and they don't even get recess. Can't they just have a class that is fun? Do they need to perform all the time? Having to be on and doing and performing all the time doesn't make for a fully-formed adult either. It makes for a burned out adult.

If your kid wants to take an art class for fun without worrying about their grade, find a class to enroll them in outside of school during evenings or weekends.

Even better if your kid wants art, music or sports do it on your own time. School should be focused on basics like reading and math since too many already don't meet these basic expectations.

[Anonymous]

OP, I believe you've posted here before about this. You think your child shouldn't have to do any work and get an automatic A because it's "just art". Do the work to get an A, or don't -- it's your kid's choice.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Art, PE and Music elective classes should be pass/fail in high school. There is no reason to grade those classes. Students are required to take them as electives to graduate. Some kids are lucky because they have a natural talent or affinity for one or more of those areas, but for the rest of us, it really sucks to be graded. Better for kids to have exposure to these subjects than resent them because they get graded. However, AP Music Theory, AP Art History etc., are truly academic classes and of course should be graded.

Baloney. My kids are both extremely talented artists. But they didn't just naturally become talented. They worked incredibly hard and have put in hundreds and hundreds of hours, have taken classes, etc. Art should absolutely be graded. Kids who are good in math aren't just naturally good. They work dang hard at it. I'm not saying there isn't some natural gifting in any of these areas. But it's what you do with it that matters. PE, music, electives are all the same. The kids who stand out, who really stand out and earn the A's, they earned those A's. It's not like they were naturally bestowed with ability that came easy. They worked hard. In fact, my daughter has worked so hard in art, as well as many other classes, that she's been offered a spot in Yale's art program.

NP. Some kids are definitely naturally gifted at art, math, whatever. Kids shouldn’t be graded in art for just talent, they should be graded on metrics like applying the concepts they’ve learned, technique, following the assignment, etc.

When I hear arguments like OP’s, it reminds me of kids complaining about learning math. “When will I ever use this?” Art, music, math, history, language: all of it comes together to create a fully-formed, educated adult. It’s all important.

I don't know. I hear what you're saying, but at the same time, we put *so* much pressure on high school kids already. They're stress out and they don't even get recess. Can't they just have a class that is fun? Do they need to perform all the time? Having to be on and doing and performing all the time doesn't make for a fully-formed adult either. It makes for a burned out adult.

If your kid wants to take an art class for fun without worrying about their grade, find a class to enroll them in outside of school during evenings or weekends.

Even better if your kid wants art, music or sports do it on your own time. School should be focused on basics like reading and math since too many already don't meet these basic expectations.

Schools can do both. Art, music and PE are part of education. By your logic, schools should also get rid of foreign language and history since those aren’t the “basics.”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Art, PE and Music elective classes should be pass/fail in high school. There is no reason to grade those classes. Students are required to take them as electives to graduate. Some kids are lucky because they have a natural talent or affinity for one or more of those areas, but for the rest of us, it really sucks to be graded. Better for kids to have exposure to these subjects than resent them because they get graded. However, AP Music Theory, AP Art History etc., are truly academic classes and of course should be graded.

Baloney. My kids are both extremely talented artists. But they didn't just naturally become talented. They worked incredibly hard and have put in hundreds and hundreds of hours, have taken classes, etc. Art should absolutely be graded. Kids who are good in math aren't just naturally good. They work dang hard at it. I'm not saying there isn't some natural gifting in any of these areas. But it's what you do with it that matters. PE, music, electives are all the same. The kids who stand out, who really stand out and earn the A's, they earned those A's. It's not like they were naturally bestowed with ability that came easy. They worked hard. In fact, my daughter has worked so hard in art, as well as many other classes, that she's been offered a spot in Yale's art program.

NP. Some kids are definitely naturally gifted at art, math, whatever. Kids shouldn’t be graded in art for just talent, they should be graded on metrics like applying the concepts they’ve learned, technique, following the assignment, etc.

When I hear arguments like OP’s, it reminds me of kids complaining about learning math. “When will I ever use this?” Art, music, math, history, language: all of it comes together to create a fully-formed, educated adult. It’s all important.

I don't know. I hear what you're saying, but at the same time, we put *so* much pressure on high school kids already. They're stress out and they don't even get recess. Can't they just have a class that is fun? Do they need to perform all the time? Having to be on and doing and performing all the time doesn't make for a fully-formed adult either. It makes for a burned out adult.

If your kid wants to take an art class for fun without worrying about their grade, find a class to enroll them in outside of school during evenings or weekends.

Even better if your kid wants art, music or sports do it on your own time. School should be focused on basics like reading and math since too many already don't meet these basic expectations.

Schools can do both. Art, music and PE are part of education. By your logic, schools should also get rid of foreign language and history since those aren’t the “basics.”

Not really those have uses. Kids who want PE or sports can do that on their own time. Many do already.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Art, PE and Music elective classes should be pass/fail in high school. There is no reason to grade those classes. Students are required to take them as electives to graduate. Some kids are lucky because they have a natural talent or affinity for one or more of those areas, but for the rest of us, it really sucks to be graded. Better for kids to have exposure to these subjects than resent them because they get graded. However, AP Music Theory, AP Art History etc., are truly academic classes and of course should be graded.

OPs kid could have taken art history instead of ceramics to satisfy the fine arts credit. Agree that they probably expected an easy A and then didn’t put in the work.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Art, PE and Music elective classes should be pass/fail in high school. There is no reason to grade those classes. Students are required to take them as electives to graduate. Some kids are lucky because they have a natural talent or affinity for one or more of those areas, but for the rest of us, it really sucks to be graded. Better for kids to have exposure to these subjects than resent them because they get graded. However, AP Music Theory, AP Art History etc., are truly academic classes and of course should be graded.

Baloney. My kids are both extremely talented artists. But they didn't just naturally become talented. They worked incredibly hard and have put in hundreds and hundreds of hours, have taken classes, etc. Art should absolutely be graded. Kids who are good in math aren't just naturally good. They work dang hard at it. I'm not saying there isn't some natural gifting in any of these areas. But it's what you do with it that matters. PE, music, electives are all the same. The kids who stand out, who really stand out and earn the A's, they earned those A's. It's not like they were naturally bestowed with ability that came easy. They worked hard. In fact, my daughter has worked so hard in art, as well as many other classes, that she's been offered a spot in Yale's art program.

NP. Some kids are definitely naturally gifted at art, math, whatever. Kids shouldn’t be graded in art for just talent, they should be graded on metrics like applying the concepts they’ve learned, technique, following the assignment, etc.

When I hear arguments like OP’s, it reminds me of kids complaining about learning math. “When will I ever use this?” Art, music, math, history, language: all of it comes together to create a fully-formed, educated adult. It’s all important.

I don't know. I hear what you're saying, but at the same time, we put *so* much pressure on high school kids already. They're stress out and they don't even get recess. Can't they just have a class that is fun? Do they need to perform all the time? Having to be on and doing and performing all the time doesn't make for a fully-formed adult either. It makes for a burned out adult.

If your kid wants to take an art class for fun without worrying about their grade, find a class to enroll them in outside of school during evenings or weekends.

Even better if your kid wants art, music or sports do it on your own time. School should be focused on basics like reading and math since too many already don't meet these basic expectations.

Schools can do both. Art, music and PE are part of education. By your logic, schools should also get rid of foreign language and history since those aren’t the “basics.”

Not really those have uses. Kids who want PE or sports can do that on their own time. Many do already.

Kids can also do foreign language and history on their own time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Art, PE and Music elective classes should be pass/fail in high school. There is no reason to grade those classes. Students are required to take them as electives to graduate. Some kids are lucky because they have a natural talent or affinity for one or more of those areas, but for the rest of us, it really sucks to be graded. Better for kids to have exposure to these subjects than resent them because they get graded. However, AP Music Theory, AP Art History etc., are truly academic classes and of course should be graded.

OPs kid could have taken art history instead of ceramics to satisfy the fine arts credit. Agree that they probably expected an easy A and then didn’t put in the work.

What an absurd assumption to make. Why would a student who works hard for As in rigorous academic classes blow off ceramics by willfully ignoring instructions, etc?

Other posters have said art teachers grade based on following instructions, applying concepts, etc. rather than on the actual art produced. A straight A student who is focused on maintaining a certain gpa isn’t apt to blow off anything.

The safest assumption is that the teacher is using an unfair highly subjective metric.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, I believe you've posted here before about this. You think your child shouldn't have to do any work and get an automatic A because it's "just art". Do the work to get an A, or don't -- it's your kid's choice.

Nope, I’ve never posted about anything remotely like this before.

My takeaway is that perhaps others are encountering the same issue.

Weird that you would assume a straight A kid who works hard to do well in school would avoid putting effort into art—or any class, really.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My high schooler earned all except in art. The teacher said she only gives As to students whose art is outstanding.

Why shouldn’t classes like art, music, and PE be pass/fail?

Yeah we have already been burnt, though luckily in middle school. Important to avoid teachers who have an inflated ego and try to take it out on kids. Interestingly ours was also an art teacher!

I’m seeing a trend.

[Anonymous]

There used to be an electives teacher at the middle school where I teach who lost student assignments regularly and randomly assigned incorrect and artificially low grades. Took years to get it documented and get that teacher out of the school. When confronted, she just dug in her heels.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Haha I bet you didn’t say this about electives your kid got an A in

+1 This thread is reminiscent of Bender’s conversation with Brian about the lamp in shop class.

[Anonymous]

This OP again? Art teacher here: if art was P/F in high school the class clown would take over and the teacher would spend even more time on discipline. Art is a legitimate subject. Don’t take it for the easy A. It seldom is.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Art, PE and Music elective classes should be pass/fail in high school. There is no reason to grade those classes. Students are required to take them as electives to graduate. Some kids are lucky because they have a natural talent or affinity for one or more of those areas, but for the rest of us, it really sucks to be graded. Better for kids to have exposure to these subjects than resent them because they get graded. However, AP Music Theory, AP Art History etc., are truly academic classes and of course should be graded.

Baloney. My kids are both extremely talented artists. But they didn't just naturally become talented. They worked incredibly hard and have put in hundreds and hundreds of hours, have taken classes, etc. Art should absolutely be graded. Kids who are good in math aren't just naturally good. They work dang hard at it. I'm not saying there isn't some natural gifting in any of these areas. But it's what you do with it that matters. PE, music, electives are all the same. The kids who stand out, who really stand out and earn the A's, they earned those A's. It's not like they were naturally bestowed with ability that came easy. They worked hard. In fact, my daughter has worked so hard in art, as well as many other classes, that she's been offered a spot in Yale's art program.

NP. Some kids are definitely naturally gifted at art, math, whatever. Kids shouldn’t be graded in art for just talent, they should be graded on metrics like applying the concepts they’ve learned, technique, following the assignment, etc.

When I hear arguments like OP’s, it reminds me of kids complaining about learning math. “When will I ever use this?” Art, music, math, history, language: all of it comes together to create a fully-formed, educated adult. It’s all important.

I don't know. I hear what you're saying, but at the same time, we put *so* much pressure on high school kids already. They're stress out and they don't even get recess. Can't they just have a class that is fun? Do they need to perform all the time? Having to be on and doing and performing all the time doesn't make for a fully-formed adult either. It makes for a burned out adult.

If your kid wants to take an art class for fun without worrying about their grade, find a class to enroll them in outside of school during evenings or weekends.

That would be exactly the problem I’d like schools to avoid. Seven hours of high-intensity schooling without some kind of creative break is bad for kids. And kids do not need any more weekend activities. Lots of kids barely have time to just chill with their friends.

Introductory art or ceramics can be an easy great or pass fail and if the kid wants to get more intense with it, they can go the AP art route.

No wonder kids these days burn out when they get to college or their first job.