Midwife charged in DC? Karen Carr, CPM...

[Anonymous]

True but the hospital would go after every single asset the women had and would bankrupt her family. There are a large number of women who make enough and have enough assets not to qualify for Medicaid but who are uninsured. There are many women who have insurance plans with poor coverage and lack maternity coverage.

Are you suggesting that the hospital shouldn't attempt to collect on its bill?

[Anonymous]

I'm worried that they will prevent a woman's right to chose where to give birth. If they say breech is not safe then what is to say they won't go down the list. I had a hb and chose very carefully after weighing the risks and chose home. I don't want the state telling me what to do with my body. Do you?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm a pro homebirther. Had my 2nd (VBAC) at home with a CPM. 3rd will be in hospital, but with a CNM...

The thing that irritates me about people arguing that the VA licensing is useless, dangerous, etc is that prior to 2005 it was illegal for a midwife to attend any homebirth in the state. CPMs and organizations that represent them lobbied the state very hard to implement a way for midwives to legally attend homebirths. And the state did. And because of that mothers in VA seeking a homebirth have access to hundreds of highly trained, competent CPMs that they didn't have access to just 6 years ago.

If you think there is still something lacking in the VA licensing practice, don't just flout the law and the process, do something to change it.

Curious about why youre having a hospital birth after your home birth if you feel like sharing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you are concerned, I would call the Bradley cooperate office if you don't feel comfortable asking the teacher directly or calling BirthCare. Do you know any BirthCare moms or people you can ask? Honestly, I know who it is but after that letter to Jeff I am not going to be the one to say it on the Internet. I would discuss it with a friend though.

This is a valid concern...the birth assistant hasn't been charged with anything but at the same time we all as mothers have a right to feel 100% comfortable with our childbirth education and labor support. We want to trust the advice we are given. Many women may still be comfortable with this woman, but others might not, and I don't think we should judge that.

What letter to Jeff? What did I miss? I thought I had read all the posts, but I admittedly was skimming some of them. Can you reference, please? Thanks!

Nevermind, found it. I must have slacked off around page 40 or so Sorry.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I have also attended hundreds of hospital births and the truth of the matter is that MOST women (even first time mom's) will push a baby out within the 3 hour time span. Generally speaking, women who often reach the 3 hour mark without success in bringing the baby down either a) started pushing too soon before the baby was in a more conducive station or b) are exhausted and unable to push effectively or c) - the biggest cause - have chosen epidural anesthesia which prevents them from feeling how to push effectively.
If the baby is tolerating labor well, there are doctors that will allow a mom to keep going after 3 hours. I have seen doctors manually rotate the fetus' head (from OP to OA position,etc.) to allow for more effective pushing. A vacuum or forceps can sometimes be used. We do a lot of "laboring down" in the hospital before allowing a mom to push - more specifically mom's with epidural anesthesia.
...
The sad truth of modern-day obstetrics is not that there are thousands of empowered, educated patients out there advocating for their needs and unable to have them met. Instead, it's a largely uneducated group of consumers who care more about what car they drive or what new iPhone model they buy over educating themselves about the birth process. When you have teen girls having thier 3rd or 4th baby by age 20 you can't exactly blame the doctors and nurses because she didn't go to her Bradley class and get all empowered about birth. I'm sure she and her children are merely trying to survive. Or is it the doctors fault too because she has no interest in birth spacing or using family planning? Where does the buck stop? And why are hosptials the proverbial "dumping ground" for all negative outcomes and/or failed homebirths? Just something for people to chew on...

I agree with what you wrote. There is noone with a stop clock 'requiring intervention when the time is up'. There may be signs of fetal distress, or there may be signs of arrested labor, or another situation that indicates that a change in plans may be the best way to procede. Just as there are women who will and want to push for 5 hours, there are the ones among them that will be successful with that (and that should be given all the time they want and need), and the ones that wouldn't be, no matter how much time would be allowed (but they may not fully understand at that moment why this is happening) , and there are many women who cannot and will not tolerate ANY kind of pain at all (whether birth or otherwise). Just as there are many who receive detailed explantions about their conditions, proposed plans, benefits, risks, alternatives, etc and do not really listen to it, and later do not remember it. There was a study published in 2008 that 78% of patients do not understand their care, or their instructions, even if written down, (taped) conversations had been done, laymen's terms used, etc... I honestly wonder how this is possible...? But I do know this: Communication is a always two way street.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm a pro homebirther. Had my 2nd (VBAC) at home with a CPM. 3rd will be in hospital, but with a CNM...

The thing that irritates me about people arguing that the VA licensing is useless, dangerous, etc is that prior to 2005 it was illegal for a midwife to attend any homebirth in the state. CPMs and organizations that represent them lobbied the state very hard to implement a way for midwives to legally attend homebirths. And the state did. And because of that mothers in VA seeking a homebirth have access to hundreds of highly trained, competent CPMs that they didn't have access to just 6 years ago.

If you think there is still something lacking in the VA licensing practice, don't just flout the law and the process, do something to change it.

Curious about why youre having a hospital birth after your home birth if you feel like sharing.

Agreement with my husband and his comfort level. He was very supportive of a homebirth with my 2nd because he knows how much my 1st experience left a bad taste in my mouth (pressure to induce, constant pitocin increases, c-section).

I'm the poster from many pages back with the story of how the cord went around our daughter's neck right at the end and the midwives had to help her breath again. Both DH and I were amazed and impressed with how quickly the midwives responded and have no doubt that it was because they were so well trained that we didn't have any further complications. But we both processed that experience very differently. I was ready to go back to our CPM in a heartbeat, but he wanted a hospital setting. So, since he held me on his lap for 2 hours while I pushed and had as hard a time as I did walking afterward because of that, I figured we could find a compromise. I found a midwife that I love (Karen King) who delivers at a hospital and we kind of get the best of both worlds.

[Anonymous]

PP here, in reading through the thread I saw that one poster took the quoted poster's comment as demeaning for people that don't educate themselves or have interventions... I don't know if the quoted poster meant to say that, but I didn't understand her comments that way... I thought it was simply an observation she made, and about communication or lack thereof. Unfortunately, whether interested in iPhones or not like she wrote, there are many in our country, that do not make any efforts to educate themselves whether about their bodies, their health or otherwise, now in my opinion you can or should hardly force people to do so, but there are many situations where it would improve their health and their care.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

It's worth noting that midwives in Canada have university degrees, and that homebirths are only offered to women that meet certain criteria, ie, no breech, no diabetes, no heart disease.

I haven't followed the whole thread, but midwives in the US don't have to have at minimum a university degree?

Believe it or not, but way back in the thread is a link to the educational requirements, and not even a High School Diploma is required for a CPM = Certified Professional Midwife.

Confusingly, this is very different from CNM's - Certified Nurse Midwifes, who have university degrees and RN licenses.

[Anonymous]

A homebirth is extremely straightforward, with a minimum of players, and seeks to grant women the right to make the choices which they deem best for them and their family. There is no mystery to this case and it certainly isn't suspicious. There is not even much to speculate on. Breech is not a medical complication; it is something that happens spontaneously in about 4% of pregnancies. Unfortunately, with it comes a very small risk of head entrapment. Again, the mindset that birth is a process to be managed by someone else, leads us to believe that with enough research or planning, we can eliminate every single risk associated with birth. The truth is that this is one risk that will never be eliminated, so your idea of stamping it out with enough review or oversight, while noble, is not realistic.

A minimum of players? So far I'm counting already 3 strangers in the house. I don't think you can claim there is no mystery to this case unless you were present that day.
I do agree with you that it is simply impossible to eliminate or counter every single risk associated with birth, regardless of the setting. But how much risk are you willing to take on? As far as the 'very small risk of head entrapment' with vaginal breech delivery; 8.5% may seem very small to you, but not to me! And I would assume not to most people... !? .... especially if encountered in a setting where noone can or knows how to deal with it.

[Anonymous]

My view of midwives is admittedly from the media and personal stories posted by others online. I have always thought of them as somewhat mean and brusque and the type that would yell at a woman to "suck it up" and the pain is good and that she should be elated to be in pain giving birth, etc.

I know what you mean. I've experienced midwifes being mean and brusque, and even hitting and slapping the laboring women, and handling the newborns incredibly roughly. It was an awful experience that did not occur in America, but in a developing country. I can't really explain the violence, but we were surrounded by violence at the time. It has scarred me in a way that, although I know it's irrational, I'm still scared of midwifes.

[Anonymous]

Not the poster you're responding to, but I'm not really sure what makes you think it's okay to say to this woman "Your actual experience is wrong and did not happen." She said that she witnessed things done to the birth mothers of her adopted children. She was THERE. It's not like she was talking about something she heard from her brother's girlfriend's cousin's cashier at the grocery store.

I'm glad your experiences have been good in the years and years you've been practicing. But recognize that your experiences are not the only experiences a person can have, ever.

You are right, I didn't mean to say 'it did not happen at all', nor 'this could never ever ever happen'. She did believe it happened that way that she remembers it as a bad experience. All I tried to say is that it is really really unusual and I cannot imagine any doctors or nurses or other attendants 'doing all these horrible things to the mothers and babies without explanation or consent'. She did not give a specific example of what was allegedly done to the babies at that hospital that was 'horrible and not explained'. As I said, in years of practicing: there is constant explaining going on (unless there is no time because the situation is so dire) ... it's the right thing to do, and it's human to do so.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

It's worth noting that midwives in Canada have university degrees, and that homebirths are only offered to women that meet certain criteria, ie, no breech, no diabetes, no heart disease.

I haven't followed the whole thread, but midwives in the US don't have to have at minimum a university degree?

Believe it or not, but way back in the thread is a link to the educational requirements, and not even a High School Diploma is required for a CPM = Certified Professional Midwife.

Confusingly, this is very different from CNM's - Certified Nurse Midwifes, who have university degrees and RN licenses.

This is true, and the whole purpose of the term "Certified Professional Midwife" is designed to muddle the two very similar looking but different meanings of the terms and confuse people. Certified NURSE Midwives are highly educated and practice legally in all 50 states. Certified Professional Midwives obtain their "certificate" from NARM, a private agency. I wonder how many people who came to this thread a few days ago would have assumed that someone who calls herself a "midwife" and delivers babies would (1) not be a nurse, (2) not have any formal medical education, (3) practice illegally and underground in a dozen states, and (4) not carry liability insurance.

Before my family was directly (and horribly) rattled by a group of illegal and underground lay midwives, I never knew about any of this stuff. I have since learned a great deal.

[Anonymous]

I wonder how many people who came to this thread a few days ago would have assumed that someone who calls herself a "midwife" and delivers babies would (1) not be a nurse, (2) not have any formal medical education, (3) practice illegally and underground in a dozen states, and (4) not carry liability insurance.

I totally agree with you. This conversation has been very enlightening.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Not the poster you're responding to, but I'm not really sure what makes you think it's okay to say to this woman "Your actual experience is wrong and did not happen." She said that she witnessed things done to the birth mothers of her adopted children. She was THERE. It's not like she was talking about something she heard from her brother's girlfriend's cousin's cashier at the grocery store.

I'm glad your experiences have been good in the years and years you've been practicing. But recognize that your experiences are not the only experiences a person can have, ever.

You are right, I didn't mean to say 'it did not happen at all', nor 'this could never ever ever happen'. She did believe it happened that way that she remembers it as a bad experience. All I tried to say is that it is really really unusual and I cannot imagine any doctors or nurses or other attendants 'doing all these horrible things to the mothers and babies without explanation or consent'. She did not give a specific example of what was allegedly done to the babies at that hospital that was 'horrible and not explained'. As I said, in years of practicing: there is constant explaining going on (unless there is no time because the situation is so dire) ... it's the right thing to do, and it's human to do so.

One of the mothers (I will call her A) was induced two weeks early because the baby was due on Christmas which was inconvenient for the doctor. They started her at midnight after she waited 3 hours for the doctor. She was not ready to give birth so a series of interventions were used to get the baby out after they broke her water (without explaining) and gave her increasingly high doses of pitocin and it still wasn't happening. They used the internal monitor without explaining and A was so upset about the fact that the baby had a scab on her head from the screw they put in her scalp that she cried. No one had told her. This was A's 4th baby. The last two had come quickly and with almost no pain. She told me that for her previous births, "I could feel the contractions but they weren't exactly painful." Well, this induced labor was entirely different. It was excruciating and long. The nurses were mean to her, probably because she was placing the baby for adoption. At one point they gave her an injection in her perineum with no warning and she screamed and asked what it was. She was given some type of medication even though she didn't really want it. They automatically gave her an unnecessary episiotomy when the second stage didn't go as quickly as they wanted it to and then they got out the vacuum extractor. She had been pushing for about an hour and a half. I have blocked out the rest of the gory details but it was horrible. And the baby was two pounds smaller than A's other 3 babies had been at birth and was covered with vernix so I believe she was more than 2 weeks early. She was very sleepy and out of it from the medication. I barely saw her eyes open for the first week.

I won't go into details about my DS's birth but it was equally ugly and the doctor left part of the placenta in which caused a later infection. It's very nice that you have only experienced beautiful birth stories in all your years of practice and that you have never seen time limits imposed but this is not consistent with the experiences of countless women who have had hospital births. And I never said that all hospitals or doctors or nurses are the same. I only said that these things are possible and they do happen and that's why a lot of women are more comfortable outside the hospital where they can control a large part of what goes on. Also, I can only compare these two births to my own during which there were no interventions at all, no medications whatsoever, and my baby was posterior. I pushed for 4 hours while the midwife and assistant sat by my side encouraging me to keep going. When the baby was born, she was strong and pink and alert and she didn't cry. It couldn't have been more different.

[Anonymous]

I knew about Certified Nurse Midwives..I never knew there was such a thing as CPM. Pretty scary how confusing and similar the two terms are when the reality of the two are worlds apart.