Board of Veterans Appeals (Attorney Advisor)

[Anonymous]

I’ve heard conflicting things for mid year evaluations….I’ve been told that only cases that are signed count towards the production goal for mid years but I’ve also heard that they’re supposed to count submitted (but not signed) cases. Anyone have info on this?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I’ve heard conflicting things for mid year evaluations….I’ve been told that only cases that are signed count towards the production goal for mid years but I’ve also heard that they’re supposed to count submitted (but not signed) cases. Anyone have info on this?

Official, only drafts that your judge has approved and signed count towards the quota. However, management has discretion to count unsigned drafts. Usually, if management likes you, they will count your unsigned drafts. If management hates you, they won’t count unsigned cases. If you complain to the union, management will cite the Board’s official policy of counting only signed drafts.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
All true things. The Board management puts attorneys in a bad spot. If you refuse to work unpaid overtime, a lot of people will be fired because they don't meet the quota. If you work unpaid overtime and management winks and nods and pretends it didn't happen, you have a better chance of keeping your job, but management gets to pretend that the quota is fair.

Shocking no one has sued after being fired. It would seem easy to prove through caseflow records that most people are working unpaid overtime and thus one was fired not for deficient performance but for a refusal to perform unauthorized and unpaid overtime.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
All true things. The Board management puts attorneys in a bad spot. If you refuse to work unpaid overtime, a lot of people will be fired because they don't meet the quota. If you work unpaid overtime and management winks and nods and pretends it didn't happen, you have a better chance of keeping your job, but management gets to pretend that the quota is fair.

Shocking no one has sued after being fired. It would seem easy to prove through caseflow records that most people are working unpaid overtime and thus one was fired not for deficient performance but for a refusal to perform unauthorized and unpaid overtime.

Your analysis makes it pretty clear why you either weren’t hired or couldn’t stick it out. Performance is counted by cases completed, not how much time you spend in CaseFlow. But I like how you picked up the name of the software used. Clever.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
All true things. The Board management puts attorneys in a bad spot. If you refuse to work unpaid overtime, a lot of people will be fired because they don't meet the quota. If you work unpaid overtime and management winks and nods and pretends it didn't happen, you have a better chance of keeping your job, but management gets to pretend that the quota is fair.

Shocking no one has sued after being fired. It would seem easy to prove through caseflow records that most people are working unpaid overtime and thus one was fired not for deficient performance but for a refusal to perform unauthorized and unpaid overtime.

Your analysis makes it pretty clear why you either weren’t hired or couldn’t stick it out. Performance is counted by cases completed, not how much time you spend in CaseFlow. But I like how you picked up the name of the software used. Clever.

I think the poster is simply stating that CaseFlow records can be used to determine whether attorneys are working unpaid overtime. I mean, why else would an attorney be accessing veterans' records on the weekends outside of their scheduled working hours.? Attorneys have no need to access veterans' records except during working hours. There's no need for snarky comments.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

You can work on weekend if you aren’t stupid about it. I was told not to send emails or submit work for review on the weekend.

You can work all you want, no one is going to check what you’re doing and when in CaseFlow. Just don’t submit or send emails - bank your work and hit submit during the work week. And the only reason anyone cares is because of the union, which makes a big stink about working hours.

so about this "union"... they're clearly impotent incompetent, right? becuase if working at the board is so utterly hellish, what exactly has the union done for quality of life? I mean can't they help at all?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

You can work on weekend if you aren’t stupid about it. I was told not to send emails or submit work for review on the weekend.

You can work all you want, no one is going to check what you’re doing and when in CaseFlow. Just don’t submit or send emails - bank your work and hit submit during the work week. And the only reason anyone cares is because of the union, which makes a big stink about working hours.

so about this "union"... they're clearly impotent incompetent, right? becuase if working at the board is so utterly hellish, what exactly has the union done for quality of life? I mean can't they help at all?

I would not characterize the union at BVA as incompetent and/or ineffective. For starters, like virtually all federal unions, the union at BVA was essentially neutered from 2018 to 2021 due to Trump's executive orders. The union has restarted representational activities during the Biden Administration, i.e. representing employees, but their attention is primarily focused on COVID and return to the office issues.

Prior to 2018, the union did a great job of representing BVA attorneys to the fullest extent possible. In fact, the union was so effective at representing BVA attorneys that it pissed off the non-attorneys in the union because the union leaders spent so much money on litigating the removal actions of numerous career BVA attorneys. The non-attorneys felt that it was not fair to spend their money to protect only the attorneys.

However, the effectiveness of the union has limits. In 2016, the VA Secretary under Obama hired a workforce consultant named Carol DiBattiste to make recommendations on how to reform the Board. Soon after Carol joined the Board, the VA Secretary put Carol in charge of the Board despite Carol having no experience in veterans disability law. Her sole task was to reform the Board, and she did a great job during her short tenure. During Carol's leadership, the same toxic managers who were accused of bullying and harassing employees were emphasizing the importance of "servant leadership" and dignity in the work place. Reports of bullying dropped dramatically because whenever Carol learned about the bullying, she told the bullies to knock it off. In January 2017, Carol was forced to leave the Board after Trump came into power. Unfortunately, the toxic managers and judges returned to their old ways after Carol left and the work environment has gotten progressively worse. Given that a Cabinet level secretary couldn't systemically reform the Board, I have no expectation that the union will be able to do so.

Article on Carol: https://www.disabledveterans.org/2016/08/03/big-data-insider-takes-board-veterans-appeals/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
All true things. The Board management puts attorneys in a bad spot. If you refuse to work unpaid overtime, a lot of people will be fired because they don't meet the quota. If you work unpaid overtime and management winks and nods and pretends it didn't happen, you have a better chance of keeping your job, but management gets to pretend that the quota is fair.

Shocking no one has sued after being fired. It would seem easy to prove through caseflow records that most people are working unpaid overtime and thus one was fired not for deficient performance but for a refusal to perform unauthorized and unpaid overtime.

Your analysis makes it pretty clear why you either weren’t hired or couldn’t stick it out. Performance is counted by cases completed, not how much time you spend in CaseFlow. But I like how you picked up the name of the software used. Clever.

Let me walk you through this: Employee A works diligently 40 hours per week. Employee A can't make quota. Employee A gets fired. Employee A sues, arguing that for most BVA attorneys making the quota involves working unauthorized overtime, thus Empoyee A was really fired, unlawfully, for refusing to work unauthorized overtime. Employee A proves this, or at least attempts to prove this, by obtaining caseflow data during discovery, showing how many BVA attorneys who do make quota are working on the weekends or outside of normal duty hours. Make sense?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
All true things. The Board management puts attorneys in a bad spot. If you refuse to work unpaid overtime, a lot of people will be fired because they don't meet the quota. If you work unpaid overtime and management winks and nods and pretends it didn't happen, you have a better chance of keeping your job, but management gets to pretend that the quota is fair.

Shocking no one has sued after being fired. It would seem easy to prove through caseflow records that most people are working unpaid overtime and thus one was fired not for deficient performance but for a refusal to perform unauthorized and unpaid overtime.

Your analysis makes it pretty clear why you either weren’t hired or couldn’t stick it out. Performance is counted by cases completed, not how much time you spend in CaseFlow. But I like how you picked up the name of the software used. Clever.

Let me walk you through this: Employee A works diligently 40 hours per week. Employee A can't make quota. Employee A gets fired. Employee A sues, arguing that for most BVA attorneys making the quota involves working unauthorized overtime, thus Empoyee A was really fired, unlawfully, for refusing to work unauthorized overtime. Employee A proves this, or at least attempts to prove this, by obtaining caseflow data during discovery, showing how many BVA attorneys who do make quota are working on the weekends or outside of normal duty hours. Make sense?

BVA attorney here. Knowing BVA management, I'm not convinced that they'll give out any information on CaseFlow. Is there a way to force BVA to turn over this information? I vaguely remember hearing about the term, "discovery," in law school, but that was several years ago. Anyone care to chime in on how discovery works?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
All true things. The Board management puts attorneys in a bad spot. If you refuse to work unpaid overtime, a lot of people will be fired because they don't meet the quota. If you work unpaid overtime and management winks and nods and pretends it didn't happen, you have a better chance of keeping your job, but management gets to pretend that the quota is fair.

Shocking no one has sued after being fired. It would seem easy to prove through caseflow records that most people are working unpaid overtime and thus one was fired not for deficient performance but for a refusal to perform unauthorized and unpaid overtime.

Your analysis makes it pretty clear why you either weren’t hired or couldn’t stick it out. Performance is counted by cases completed, not how much time you spend in CaseFlow. But I like how you picked up the name of the software used. Clever.

Let me walk you through this: Employee A works diligently 40 hours per week. Employee A can't make quota. Employee A gets fired. Employee A sues, arguing that for most BVA attorneys making the quota involves working unauthorized overtime, thus Empoyee A was really fired, unlawfully, for refusing to work unauthorized overtime. Employee A proves this, or at least attempts to prove this, by obtaining caseflow data during discovery, showing how many BVA attorneys who do make quota are working on the weekends or outside of normal duty hours. Make sense?

BVA attorney here. Knowing BVA management, I'm not convinced that they'll give out any information on CaseFlow. Is there a way to force BVA to turn over this information? I vaguely remember hearing about the term, "discovery," in law school, but that was several years ago. Anyone care to chime in on how discovery works?

Sometimes I don’t get jokes. Is this a joke?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
All true things. The Board management puts attorneys in a bad spot. If you refuse to work unpaid overtime, a lot of people will be fired because they don't meet the quota. If you work unpaid overtime and management winks and nods and pretends it didn't happen, you have a better chance of keeping your job, but management gets to pretend that the quota is fair.

Shocking no one has sued after being fired. It would seem easy to prove through caseflow records that most people are working unpaid overtime and thus one was fired not for deficient performance but for a refusal to perform unauthorized and unpaid overtime.

Your analysis makes it pretty clear why you either weren’t hired or couldn’t stick it out. Performance is counted by cases completed, not how much time you spend in CaseFlow. But I like how you picked up the name of the software used. Clever.

Let me walk you through this: Employee A works diligently 40 hours per week. Employee A can't make quota. Employee A gets fired. Employee A sues, arguing that for most BVA attorneys making the quota involves working unauthorized overtime, thus Empoyee A was really fired, unlawfully, for refusing to work unauthorized overtime. Employee A proves this, or at least attempts to prove this, by obtaining caseflow data during discovery, showing how many BVA attorneys who do make quota are working on the weekends or outside of normal duty hours. Make sense?

BVA attorney here. Knowing BVA management, I'm not convinced that they'll give out any information on CaseFlow. Is there a way to force BVA to turn over this information? I vaguely remember hearing about the term, "discovery," in law school, but that was several years ago. Anyone care to chime in on how discovery works?

you cannot be seriously asking this question.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
All true things. The Board management puts attorneys in a bad spot. If you refuse to work unpaid overtime, a lot of people will be fired because they don't meet the quota. If you work unpaid overtime and management winks and nods and pretends it didn't happen, you have a better chance of keeping your job, but management gets to pretend that the quota is fair.

Shocking no one has sued after being fired. It would seem easy to prove through caseflow records that most people are working unpaid overtime and thus one was fired not for deficient performance but for a refusal to perform unauthorized and unpaid overtime.

Your analysis makes it pretty clear why you either weren’t hired or couldn’t stick it out. Performance is counted by cases completed, not how much time you spend in CaseFlow. But I like how you picked up the name of the software used. Clever.

Let me walk you through this: Employee A works diligently 40 hours per week. Employee A can't make quota. Employee A gets fired. Employee A sues, arguing that for most BVA attorneys making the quota involves working unauthorized overtime, thus Empoyee A was really fired, unlawfully, for refusing to work unauthorized overtime. Employee A proves this, or at least attempts to prove this, by obtaining caseflow data during discovery, showing how many BVA attorneys who do make quota are working on the weekends or outside of normal duty hours. Make sense?

BVA attorney here. Knowing BVA management, I'm not convinced that they'll give out any information on CaseFlow. Is there a way to force BVA to turn over this information? I vaguely remember hearing about the term, "discovery," in law school, but that was several years ago. Anyone care to chime in on how discovery works?

you cannot be seriously asking this question.

Discovery may come easy to litigators, but I've never been a litigator. I joined the BVA directly out of law school. I only have decision writing experience. While I could look up civil procedure laws on how to conduct discovery, I don't want to relive that nightmare. The easiest way to get an answer on how to conduct discovery is to ask fellow DCUM users. And, why is my question surprising? The majority of BVA attorneys have no litigation experience. I'm pretty sure that I'm not the only BVA attorney who doesn't know how to conduct discovery.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
All true things. The Board management puts attorneys in a bad spot. If you refuse to work unpaid overtime, a lot of people will be fired because they don't meet the quota. If you work unpaid overtime and management winks and nods and pretends it didn't happen, you have a better chance of keeping your job, but management gets to pretend that the quota is fair.

Shocking no one has sued after being fired. It would seem easy to prove through caseflow records that most people are working unpaid overtime and thus one was fired not for deficient performance but for a refusal to perform unauthorized and unpaid overtime.

Your analysis makes it pretty clear why you either weren’t hired or couldn’t stick it out. Performance is counted by cases completed, not how much time you spend in CaseFlow. But I like how you picked up the name of the software used. Clever.

Let me walk you through this: Employee A works diligently 40 hours per week. Employee A can't make quota. Employee A gets fired. Employee A sues, arguing that for most BVA attorneys making the quota involves working unauthorized overtime, thus Empoyee A was really fired, unlawfully, for refusing to work unauthorized overtime. Employee A proves this, or at least attempts to prove this, by obtaining caseflow data during discovery, showing how many BVA attorneys who do make quota are working on the weekends or outside of normal duty hours. Make sense?

BVA attorney here. Knowing BVA management, I'm not convinced that they'll give out any information on CaseFlow. Is there a way to force BVA to turn over this information? I vaguely remember hearing about the term, "discovery," in law school, but that was several years ago. Anyone care to chime in on how discovery works?

you cannot be seriously asking this question.

Discovery may come easy to litigators, but I've never been a litigator. I joined the BVA directly out of law school. I only have decision writing experience. While I could look up civil procedure laws on how to conduct discovery, I don't want to relive that nightmare. The easiest way to get an answer on how to conduct discovery is to ask fellow DCUM users. And, why is my question surprising? The majority of BVA attorneys have no litigation experience. I'm pretty sure that I'm not the only BVA attorney who doesn't know how to conduct discovery.

Google would be more help than DCUM, this thread especially. Do you see the moronic stuff they spout with regularity?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
All true things. The Board management puts attorneys in a bad spot. If you refuse to work unpaid overtime, a lot of people will be fired because they don't meet the quota. If you work unpaid overtime and management winks and nods and pretends it didn't happen, you have a better chance of keeping your job, but management gets to pretend that the quota is fair.

Shocking no one has sued after being fired. It would seem easy to prove through caseflow records that most people are working unpaid overtime and thus one was fired not for deficient performance but for a refusal to perform unauthorized and unpaid overtime.

Your analysis makes it pretty clear why you either weren’t hired or couldn’t stick it out. Performance is counted by cases completed, not how much time you spend in CaseFlow. But I like how you picked up the name of the software used. Clever.

Let me walk you through this: Employee A works diligently 40 hours per week. Employee A can't make quota. Employee A gets fired. Employee A sues, arguing that for most BVA attorneys making the quota involves working unauthorized overtime, thus Empoyee A was really fired, unlawfully, for refusing to work unauthorized overtime. Employee A proves this, or at least attempts to prove this, by obtaining caseflow data during discovery, showing how many BVA attorneys who do make quota are working on the weekends or outside of normal duty hours. Make sense?

BVA attorney here. Knowing BVA management, I'm not convinced that they'll give out any information on CaseFlow. Is there a way to force BVA to turn over this information? I vaguely remember hearing about the term, "discovery," in law school, but that was several years ago. Anyone care to chime in on how discovery works?

you cannot be seriously asking this question.

Discovery may come easy to litigators, but I've never been a litigator. I joined the BVA directly out of law school. I only have decision writing experience. While I could look up civil procedure laws on how to conduct discovery, I don't want to relive that nightmare. The easiest way to get an answer on how to conduct discovery is to ask fellow DCUM users. And, why is my question surprising? The majority of BVA attorneys have no litigation experience. I'm pretty sure that I'm not the only BVA attorney who doesn't know how to conduct discovery.

short answer. It would take years of contentious litigation to get anything close to useful. It's not worth the fight unless the people fighting are experienced in litigating these types of disputes against the government, and have the resolve to do the work aggressively. The government will not easily give up anything useful.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
All true things. The Board management puts attorneys in a bad spot. If you refuse to work unpaid overtime, a lot of people will be fired because they don't meet the quota. If you work unpaid overtime and management winks and nods and pretends it didn't happen, you have a better chance of keeping your job, but management gets to pretend that the quota is fair.

Shocking no one has sued after being fired. It would seem easy to prove through caseflow records that most people are working unpaid overtime and thus one was fired not for deficient performance but for a refusal to perform unauthorized and unpaid overtime.

Your analysis makes it pretty clear why you either weren’t hired or couldn’t stick it out. Performance is counted by cases completed, not how much time you spend in CaseFlow. But I like how you picked up the name of the software used. Clever.

Let me walk you through this: Employee A works diligently 40 hours per week. Employee A can't make quota. Employee A gets fired. Employee A sues, arguing that for most BVA attorneys making the quota involves working unauthorized overtime, thus Empoyee A was really fired, unlawfully, for refusing to work unauthorized overtime. Employee A proves this, or at least attempts to prove this, by obtaining caseflow data during discovery, showing how many BVA attorneys who do make quota are working on the weekends or outside of normal duty hours. Make sense?

BVA attorney here. Knowing BVA management, I'm not convinced that they'll give out any information on CaseFlow. Is there a way to force BVA to turn over this information? I vaguely remember hearing about the term, "discovery," in law school, but that was several years ago. Anyone care to chime in on how discovery works?

you cannot be seriously asking this question.

Discovery may come easy to litigators, but I've never been a litigator. I joined the BVA directly out of law school. I only have decision writing experience. While I could look up civil procedure laws on how to conduct discovery, I don't want to relive that nightmare. The easiest way to get an answer on how to conduct discovery is to ask fellow DCUM users. And, why is my question surprising? The majority of BVA attorneys have no litigation experience. I'm pretty sure that I'm not the only BVA attorney who doesn't know how to conduct discovery.

short answer. It would take years of contentious litigation to get anything close to useful. It's not worth the fight unless the people fighting are experienced in litigating these types of disputes against the government, and have the resolve to do the work aggressively. The government will not easily give up anything useful.

The union was working with a private law firm years ago on a class-action suit for unpaid overtime, but I don't know what happened to that effort. Didn't DOJ lawyers win a similar suit a few years ago?