Anonymous wrote:All I know is that the URM lady who works as an admin assistant at my wife's company with an IQ of like 90 now has a daughter at TJ so we know the new system is doing too well lol
There are some many things wrong with this post I can't even...
It helps them feel less bitter by talking made-up trash who cares. I know it's frustrating for a lot of parents since the new system is harder to game, and they need to vent somewhere.
Actually, the new system is easier to game.
Well, you used to be able to buy the test answers so it was easier for people with money.
Where did you buy your answers?
The prep centers were conducting exit interviews on students who had taken the test. This allowed them to compile question banks. Many of these questions would show up in subsequent years. It wasn't really a big secret. Everyone knew it was going on. How do you think one prep center got 30% of those admitted in one year? Do you think it was talent? LOLOL
Everyone knows this was going on. It's why the county had to change the selection criteria. I'm not sure why these posters want to keep it secret even now since the cats out of the bag.
The cheating was so out of control that they had to scrap the whole selection process and come up with what we have now.
Amazing that they had evidence of out of control cheating, but didn't use that in the lawsuit to justify their admissions changes. Seems like it would be a slam dunk win to show that the changes needed to happen due to rampant cheating.
+1 Cheating would have been a good defense to raise if it really happened.
No, FCPS neither wanted to, nor could prove it. It would be attacking students, when they found a better solution by changing the admissions process.
If they couldn't prove it, that means there's no actual evidence. Thanks for admitting that the "cheating scandal" is just hearsay and a conspiracy theory.
Exactly. People went from some kids saying they saw the questions, to Curie was buying the test, or was debriefing the students about what questions were on it to make a question bank for next year.
Maybe it's true, or maybe they got their hand on some sample questions. but it's just guessing.
It is FALSE that Curie bought the test or that their students had access to all of the exam questions prior to sitting for the exam.
It is TRUE that Curie students reported that, when they sat for the Quant-Q, they realized they’d seen SOME of the exact questions before and had been shown how to solve essentially all of them, step by step, at Curie.
How do you know these are FALSE or TRUE? Did the Curie students report they saw SOME or ALL?
I'd heard that the this was true. Not sure about the first statement though I have no idea where they got answers.
That was my point. It is known some students said they saw the answers at Curie. I think it was all the answers that they said, but people including me surmised that they were probably shown material similar to some of the questions. It is possible Curie has an in with the testing company and had all the answers beforehand. It is possible they were asking students about the questions and built up a test bank over the years, and the testing company was reusing questions. This guesswork as to what Curie did has evolved over two years into 'FACT' that Curie was debriefing students after the test, in violation of the agreement the students signed. More recently it became a FACT that Curie was telling kids to check the free meals box on the application. I don't think there is anyone who said they heard this at Curie. They then went on and said it was a FACT that Curie was advising them to fill out forms at their school when TJ started asking for verification of the free meals.
This is the part that is incontrovertibly true - although we don't know whether Curie ASKED for the materials or if they were simply provided. The rest of it I don't buy.
Makes them smart!
Makes them unethical. Probably not illegal or criminal, and therefore not worthy of an investigation, but certainly unethical given the amount of money they swindle out of the Indian community every year.
Capitalists engage in legal but unethical acts everyday - 24 hours a day! They sometimes say it is their fiduciary 'duty' to maximize profit and deliver the best possible service/product within the confines of the law. What the big deal?
The big deal is that they created imbalances in an admissions process that is supposed to be fair to all by delivering materials from a secured exam to constituents from a single ethnic group, and in so doing eliminated others from consideration in exchange for many thousands of dollars.
Financial resources are not supposed to be a de facto separator in the TJ admissions process, but under the old process (which yielded less than 1% FARMS over 30 years) it undeniably was.
So are we back to advocating for quotas? A lottery? Or just giving poor and URM bonus points? I've lost track of what the goal is? Level playing field, equal opportunity, equal outcome, or something else?
Explaining how the system got so screwed up isn't the same as asking for quotas. Do you do this simply to distract from a meaningful discussion of where things went wrong?
Not everyone believes a competitive process involving a standardized test is something going wrong. Some believe that what went wrong is nothing more than Asians being overwhelmingly successful and dominating admissions to the dislike of the school board and FCPS parents that decided to discriminate against Asians to socially engineer admissions.
The cheating issue was one issue. Another is declining numbers of applicants which shows there's a problem somewhere. It's a real issue that you can't just decide didn't happen.
But there is a plausible simple explanation - if you know you have no chance of getting in you choose not to apply. If you are mediocre at violin or something, you don't opt to try out for an elite string group. The same thing may have happened at TJ. We do not know. On this board, I have heard many times that white students stopped applying because they did not like the "toxic" culture of TJ produced by an 80% Asian student body. Still not sure what the definition of "toxic" is in that statement.
NP, but I'll take a stab since you seem to be struggling with basics... perhaps an unhealthy degree of competition amongst students within the school that undermined the academic environment... not to say that students couldn't still achieve and learn, but did so in a manner that was unnecessarily poisonous to mental health for too large of a proportion of the student body.
Anything at the top level is hyper-competitive, Olympic level competitions, NFL, NBA, World Cup. Nature of the game. if you can't stand the heat, Get out the kitchen.
Rather than discouraging people who could otherwise be at that level, a better solution is to fix the toxic poisonous atmosphere.
Asians are severely under-represented in the Olympic teams. We must hire DEI officers to increase under represented Asians in these teams. Black and white athletes will be better served by being exposed to more diverse people and diverse perspectives -invaluable lessons! Oh, and it will reduce the toxic and poisonous atmospheres of those hyper competitive teams.
Asians are under-represented among the DEI officers and Asians must make up at least 6.5% of those DEI employees.
+1. Asians make up less than 1%.
Because we're too smart to take such a dumb job. You sound like you want to force us to work in positions that we aren't choosing -- there's a word for that...
Anonymous wrote:All I know is that the URM lady who works as an admin assistant at my wife's company with an IQ of like 90 now has a daughter at TJ so we know the new system is doing too well lol
There are some many things wrong with this post I can't even...
It helps them feel less bitter by talking made-up trash who cares. I know it's frustrating for a lot of parents since the new system is harder to game, and they need to vent somewhere.
Actually, the new system is easier to game.
Well, you used to be able to buy the test answers so it was easier for people with money.
Where did you buy your answers?
The prep centers were conducting exit interviews on students who had taken the test. This allowed them to compile question banks. Many of these questions would show up in subsequent years. It wasn't really a big secret. Everyone knew it was going on. How do you think one prep center got 30% of those admitted in one year? Do you think it was talent? LOLOL
Everyone knows this was going on. It's why the county had to change the selection criteria. I'm not sure why these posters want to keep it secret even now since the cats out of the bag.
The cheating was so out of control that they had to scrap the whole selection process and come up with what we have now.
Amazing that they had evidence of out of control cheating, but didn't use that in the lawsuit to justify their admissions changes. Seems like it would be a slam dunk win to show that the changes needed to happen due to rampant cheating.
+1 Cheating would have been a good defense to raise if it really happened.
No, FCPS neither wanted to, nor could prove it. It would be attacking students, when they found a better solution by changing the admissions process.
If they couldn't prove it, that means there's no actual evidence. Thanks for admitting that the "cheating scandal" is just hearsay and a conspiracy theory.
Exactly. People went from some kids saying they saw the questions, to Curie was buying the test, or was debriefing the students about what questions were on it to make a question bank for next year.
Maybe it's true, or maybe they got their hand on some sample questions. but it's just guessing.
It is FALSE that Curie bought the test or that their students had access to all of the exam questions prior to sitting for the exam.
It is TRUE that Curie students reported that, when they sat for the Quant-Q, they realized they’d seen SOME of the exact questions before and had been shown how to solve essentially all of them, step by step, at Curie.
How do you know these are FALSE or TRUE? Did the Curie students report they saw SOME or ALL?
I'd heard that the this was true. Not sure about the first statement though I have no idea where they got answers.
That was my point. It is known some students said they saw the answers at Curie. I think it was all the answers that they said, but people including me surmised that they were probably shown material similar to some of the questions. It is possible Curie has an in with the testing company and had all the answers beforehand. It is possible they were asking students about the questions and built up a test bank over the years, and the testing company was reusing questions. This guesswork as to what Curie did has evolved over two years into 'FACT' that Curie was debriefing students after the test, in violation of the agreement the students signed. More recently it became a FACT that Curie was telling kids to check the free meals box on the application. I don't think there is anyone who said they heard this at Curie. They then went on and said it was a FACT that Curie was advising them to fill out forms at their school when TJ started asking for verification of the free meals.
This is the part that is incontrovertibly true - although we don't know whether Curie ASKED for the materials or if they were simply provided. The rest of it I don't buy.
Makes them smart!
Makes them unethical. Probably not illegal or criminal, and therefore not worthy of an investigation, but certainly unethical given the amount of money they swindle out of the Indian community every year.
Capitalists engage in legal but unethical acts everyday - 24 hours a day! They sometimes say it is their fiduciary 'duty' to maximize profit and deliver the best possible service/product within the confines of the law. What the big deal?
The big deal is that they created imbalances in an admissions process that is supposed to be fair to all by delivering materials from a secured exam to constituents from a single ethnic group, and in so doing eliminated others from consideration in exchange for many thousands of dollars.
Financial resources are not supposed to be a de facto separator in the TJ admissions process, but under the old process (which yielded less than 1% FARMS over 30 years) it undeniably was.
So are we back to advocating for quotas? A lottery? Or just giving poor and URM bonus points? I've lost track of what the goal is? Level playing field, equal opportunity, equal outcome, or something else?
Explaining how the system got so screwed up isn't the same as asking for quotas. Do you do this simply to distract from a meaningful discussion of where things went wrong?
Not everyone believes a competitive process involving a standardized test is something going wrong. Some believe that what went wrong is nothing more than Asians being overwhelmingly successful and dominating admissions to the dislike of the school board and FCPS parents that decided to discriminate against Asians to socially engineer admissions.
The cheating issue was one issue. Another is declining numbers of applicants which shows there's a problem somewhere. It's a real issue that you can't just decide didn't happen.
But there is a plausible simple explanation - if you know you have no chance of getting in you choose not to apply. If you are mediocre at violin or something, you don't opt to try out for an elite string group. The same thing may have happened at TJ. We do not know. On this board, I have heard many times that white students stopped applying because they did not like the "toxic" culture of TJ produced by an 80% Asian student body. Still not sure what the definition of "toxic" is in that statement.
NP, but I'll take a stab since you seem to be struggling with basics... perhaps an unhealthy degree of competition amongst students within the school that undermined the academic environment... not to say that students couldn't still achieve and learn, but did so in a manner that was unnecessarily poisonous to mental health for too large of a proportion of the student body.
Anything at the top level is hyper-competitive, Olympic level competitions, NFL, NBA, World Cup. Nature of the game. if you can't stand the heat, Get out the kitchen.
Rather than discouraging people who could otherwise be at that level, a better solution is to fix the toxic poisonous atmosphere.
Asians are severely under-represented in the Olympic teams. We must hire DEI officers to increase under represented Asians in these teams. Black and white athletes will be better served by being exposed to more diverse people and diverse perspectives -invaluable lessons! Oh, and it will reduce the toxic and poisonous atmospheres of those hyper competitive teams.
Asians are under-represented among the DEI officers and Asians must make up at least 6.5% of those DEI employees.
+1. Asians make up less than 1%.
Because we're too smart to take such a dumb job. You sound like you want to force us to work in positions that we aren't choosing -- there's a word for that...
Those are nice jobs - you make six figure income for doing almost nothing.
Anonymous wrote:All I know is that the URM lady who works as an admin assistant at my wife's company with an IQ of like 90 now has a daughter at TJ so we know the new system is doing too well lol
There are some many things wrong with this post I can't even...
It helps them feel less bitter by talking made-up trash who cares. I know it's frustrating for a lot of parents since the new system is harder to game, and they need to vent somewhere.
Actually, the new system is easier to game.
Well, you used to be able to buy the test answers so it was easier for people with money.
Where did you buy your answers?
The prep centers were conducting exit interviews on students who had taken the test. This allowed them to compile question banks. Many of these questions would show up in subsequent years. It wasn't really a big secret. Everyone knew it was going on. How do you think one prep center got 30% of those admitted in one year? Do you think it was talent? LOLOL
Everyone knows this was going on. It's why the county had to change the selection criteria. I'm not sure why these posters want to keep it secret even now since the cats out of the bag.
The cheating was so out of control that they had to scrap the whole selection process and come up with what we have now.
Amazing that they had evidence of out of control cheating, but didn't use that in the lawsuit to justify their admissions changes. Seems like it would be a slam dunk win to show that the changes needed to happen due to rampant cheating.
+1 Cheating would have been a good defense to raise if it really happened.
No, FCPS neither wanted to, nor could prove it. It would be attacking students, when they found a better solution by changing the admissions process.
If they couldn't prove it, that means there's no actual evidence. Thanks for admitting that the "cheating scandal" is just hearsay and a conspiracy theory.
Exactly. People went from some kids saying they saw the questions, to Curie was buying the test, or was debriefing the students about what questions were on it to make a question bank for next year.
Maybe it's true, or maybe they got their hand on some sample questions. but it's just guessing.
It is FALSE that Curie bought the test or that their students had access to all of the exam questions prior to sitting for the exam.
It is TRUE that Curie students reported that, when they sat for the Quant-Q, they realized they’d seen SOME of the exact questions before and had been shown how to solve essentially all of them, step by step, at Curie.
How do you know these are FALSE or TRUE? Did the Curie students report they saw SOME or ALL?
I'd heard that the this was true. Not sure about the first statement though I have no idea where they got answers.
That was my point. It is known some students said they saw the answers at Curie. I think it was all the answers that they said, but people including me surmised that they were probably shown material similar to some of the questions. It is possible Curie has an in with the testing company and had all the answers beforehand. It is possible they were asking students about the questions and built up a test bank over the years, and the testing company was reusing questions. This guesswork as to what Curie did has evolved over two years into 'FACT' that Curie was debriefing students after the test, in violation of the agreement the students signed. More recently it became a FACT that Curie was telling kids to check the free meals box on the application. I don't think there is anyone who said they heard this at Curie. They then went on and said it was a FACT that Curie was advising them to fill out forms at their school when TJ started asking for verification of the free meals.
This is the part that is incontrovertibly true - although we don't know whether Curie ASKED for the materials or if they were simply provided. The rest of it I don't buy.
Makes them smart!
Makes them unethical. Probably not illegal or criminal, and therefore not worthy of an investigation, but certainly unethical given the amount of money they swindle out of the Indian community every year.
Capitalists engage in legal but unethical acts everyday - 24 hours a day! They sometimes say it is their fiduciary 'duty' to maximize profit and deliver the best possible service/product within the confines of the law. What the big deal?
The big deal is that they created imbalances in an admissions process that is supposed to be fair to all by delivering materials from a secured exam to constituents from a single ethnic group, and in so doing eliminated others from consideration in exchange for many thousands of dollars.
Financial resources are not supposed to be a de facto separator in the TJ admissions process, but under the old process (which yielded less than 1% FARMS over 30 years) it undeniably was.
So are we back to advocating for quotas? A lottery? Or just giving poor and URM bonus points? I've lost track of what the goal is? Level playing field, equal opportunity, equal outcome, or something else?
Explaining how the system got so screwed up isn't the same as asking for quotas. Do you do this simply to distract from a meaningful discussion of where things went wrong?
Not everyone believes a competitive process involving a standardized test is something going wrong. Some believe that what went wrong is nothing more than Asians being overwhelmingly successful and dominating admissions to the dislike of the school board and FCPS parents that decided to discriminate against Asians to socially engineer admissions.
The cheating issue was one issue. Another is declining numbers of applicants which shows there's a problem somewhere. It's a real issue that you can't just decide didn't happen.
But there is a plausible simple explanation - if you know you have no chance of getting in you choose not to apply. If you are mediocre at violin or something, you don't opt to try out for an elite string group. The same thing may have happened at TJ. We do not know. On this board, I have heard many times that white students stopped applying because they did not like the "toxic" culture of TJ produced by an 80% Asian student body. Still not sure what the definition of "toxic" is in that statement.
NP, but I'll take a stab since you seem to be struggling with basics... perhaps an unhealthy degree of competition amongst students within the school that undermined the academic environment... not to say that students couldn't still achieve and learn, but did so in a manner that was unnecessarily poisonous to mental health for too large of a proportion of the student body.
Anything at the top level is hyper-competitive, Olympic level competitions, NFL, NBA, World Cup. Nature of the game. if you can't stand the heat, Get out the kitchen.
Rather than discouraging people who could otherwise be at that level, a better solution is to fix the toxic poisonous atmosphere.
Asians are severely under-represented in the Olympic teams. We must hire DEI officers to increase under represented Asians in these teams. Black and white athletes will be better served by being exposed to more diverse people and diverse perspectives -invaluable lessons! Oh, and it will reduce the toxic and poisonous atmospheres of those hyper competitive teams.
Asians are under-represented among the DEI officers and Asians must make up at least 6.5% of those DEI employees.
+1. Asians make up less than 1%.
Because we're too smart to take such a dumb job. You sound like you want to force us to work in positions that we aren't choosing -- there's a word for that...
Those are nice jobs - you make six figure income for doing almost nothing.
Anonymous wrote:All I know is that the URM lady who works as an admin assistant at my wife's company with an IQ of like 90 now has a daughter at TJ so we know the new system is doing too well lol
There are some many things wrong with this post I can't even...
It helps them feel less bitter by talking made-up trash who cares. I know it's frustrating for a lot of parents since the new system is harder to game, and they need to vent somewhere.
Actually, the new system is easier to game.
Well, you used to be able to buy the test answers so it was easier for people with money.
Where did you buy your answers?
The prep centers were conducting exit interviews on students who had taken the test. This allowed them to compile question banks. Many of these questions would show up in subsequent years. It wasn't really a big secret. Everyone knew it was going on. How do you think one prep center got 30% of those admitted in one year? Do you think it was talent? LOLOL
Everyone knows this was going on. It's why the county had to change the selection criteria. I'm not sure why these posters want to keep it secret even now since the cats out of the bag.
The cheating was so out of control that they had to scrap the whole selection process and come up with what we have now.
Amazing that they had evidence of out of control cheating, but didn't use that in the lawsuit to justify their admissions changes. Seems like it would be a slam dunk win to show that the changes needed to happen due to rampant cheating.
+1 Cheating would have been a good defense to raise if it really happened.
No, FCPS neither wanted to, nor could prove it. It would be attacking students, when they found a better solution by changing the admissions process.
If they couldn't prove it, that means there's no actual evidence. Thanks for admitting that the "cheating scandal" is just hearsay and a conspiracy theory.
Exactly. People went from some kids saying they saw the questions, to Curie was buying the test, or was debriefing the students about what questions were on it to make a question bank for next year.
Maybe it's true, or maybe they got their hand on some sample questions. but it's just guessing.
It is FALSE that Curie bought the test or that their students had access to all of the exam questions prior to sitting for the exam.
It is TRUE that Curie students reported that, when they sat for the Quant-Q, they realized they’d seen SOME of the exact questions before and had been shown how to solve essentially all of them, step by step, at Curie.
How do you know these are FALSE or TRUE? Did the Curie students report they saw SOME or ALL?
I'd heard that the this was true. Not sure about the first statement though I have no idea where they got answers.
That was my point. It is known some students said they saw the answers at Curie. I think it was all the answers that they said, but people including me surmised that they were probably shown material similar to some of the questions. It is possible Curie has an in with the testing company and had all the answers beforehand. It is possible they were asking students about the questions and built up a test bank over the years, and the testing company was reusing questions. This guesswork as to what Curie did has evolved over two years into 'FACT' that Curie was debriefing students after the test, in violation of the agreement the students signed. More recently it became a FACT that Curie was telling kids to check the free meals box on the application. I don't think there is anyone who said they heard this at Curie. They then went on and said it was a FACT that Curie was advising them to fill out forms at their school when TJ started asking for verification of the free meals.
This is the part that is incontrovertibly true - although we don't know whether Curie ASKED for the materials or if they were simply provided. The rest of it I don't buy.
Makes them smart!
Makes them unethical. Probably not illegal or criminal, and therefore not worthy of an investigation, but certainly unethical given the amount of money they swindle out of the Indian community every year.
Capitalists engage in legal but unethical acts everyday - 24 hours a day! They sometimes say it is their fiduciary 'duty' to maximize profit and deliver the best possible service/product within the confines of the law. What the big deal?
The big deal is that they created imbalances in an admissions process that is supposed to be fair to all by delivering materials from a secured exam to constituents from a single ethnic group, and in so doing eliminated others from consideration in exchange for many thousands of dollars.
Financial resources are not supposed to be a de facto separator in the TJ admissions process, but under the old process (which yielded less than 1% FARMS over 30 years) it undeniably was.
So are we back to advocating for quotas? A lottery? Or just giving poor and URM bonus points? I've lost track of what the goal is? Level playing field, equal opportunity, equal outcome, or something else?
Explaining how the system got so screwed up isn't the same as asking for quotas. Do you do this simply to distract from a meaningful discussion of where things went wrong?
Not everyone believes a competitive process involving a standardized test is something going wrong. Some believe that what went wrong is nothing more than Asians being overwhelmingly successful and dominating admissions to the dislike of the school board and FCPS parents that decided to discriminate against Asians to socially engineer admissions.
The cheating issue was one issue. Another is declining numbers of applicants which shows there's a problem somewhere. It's a real issue that you can't just decide didn't happen.
But there is a plausible simple explanation - if you know you have no chance of getting in you choose not to apply. If you are mediocre at violin or something, you don't opt to try out for an elite string group. The same thing may have happened at TJ. We do not know. On this board, I have heard many times that white students stopped applying because they did not like the "toxic" culture of TJ produced by an 80% Asian student body. Still not sure what the definition of "toxic" is in that statement.
NP, but I'll take a stab since you seem to be struggling with basics... perhaps an unhealthy degree of competition amongst students within the school that undermined the academic environment... not to say that students couldn't still achieve and learn, but did so in a manner that was unnecessarily poisonous to mental health for too large of a proportion of the student body.
Anything at the top level is hyper-competitive, Olympic level competitions, NFL, NBA, World Cup. Nature of the game. if you can't stand the heat, Get out the kitchen.
Rather than discouraging people who could otherwise be at that level, a better solution is to fix the toxic poisonous atmosphere.
Asians are severely under-represented in the Olympic teams. We must hire DEI officers to increase under represented Asians in these teams. Black and white athletes will be better served by being exposed to more diverse people and diverse perspectives -invaluable lessons! Oh, and it will reduce the toxic and poisonous atmospheres of those hyper competitive teams.
Asians are under-represented among the DEI officers and Asians must make up at least 6.5% of those DEI employees.
+1. Asians make up less than 1%.
Because we're too smart to take such a dumb job. You sound like you want to force us to work in positions that we aren't choosing -- there's a word for that...
Those are nice jobs - you make six figure income for doing almost nothing.
Until you get axed. They're the first to go.
Not really. There is always demand for these jobs and no layoffs!
Anonymous wrote:All I know is that the URM lady who works as an admin assistant at my wife's company with an IQ of like 90 now has a daughter at TJ so we know the new system is doing too well lol
There are some many things wrong with this post I can't even...
It helps them feel less bitter by talking made-up trash who cares. I know it's frustrating for a lot of parents since the new system is harder to game, and they need to vent somewhere.
Actually, the new system is easier to game.
Well, you used to be able to buy the test answers so it was easier for people with money.
Where did you buy your answers?
The prep centers were conducting exit interviews on students who had taken the test. This allowed them to compile question banks. Many of these questions would show up in subsequent years. It wasn't really a big secret. Everyone knew it was going on. How do you think one prep center got 30% of those admitted in one year? Do you think it was talent? LOLOL
Everyone knows this was going on. It's why the county had to change the selection criteria. I'm not sure why these posters want to keep it secret even now since the cats out of the bag.
The cheating was so out of control that they had to scrap the whole selection process and come up with what we have now.
Amazing that they had evidence of out of control cheating, but didn't use that in the lawsuit to justify their admissions changes. Seems like it would be a slam dunk win to show that the changes needed to happen due to rampant cheating.
+1 Cheating would have been a good defense to raise if it really happened.
No, FCPS neither wanted to, nor could prove it. It would be attacking students, when they found a better solution by changing the admissions process.
If they couldn't prove it, that means there's no actual evidence. Thanks for admitting that the "cheating scandal" is just hearsay and a conspiracy theory.
Exactly. People went from some kids saying they saw the questions, to Curie was buying the test, or was debriefing the students about what questions were on it to make a question bank for next year.
Maybe it's true, or maybe they got their hand on some sample questions. but it's just guessing.
It is FALSE that Curie bought the test or that their students had access to all of the exam questions prior to sitting for the exam.
It is TRUE that Curie students reported that, when they sat for the Quant-Q, they realized they’d seen SOME of the exact questions before and had been shown how to solve essentially all of them, step by step, at Curie.
How do you know these are FALSE or TRUE? Did the Curie students report they saw SOME or ALL?
I'd heard that the this was true. Not sure about the first statement though I have no idea where they got answers.
That was my point. It is known some students said they saw the answers at Curie. I think it was all the answers that they said, but people including me surmised that they were probably shown material similar to some of the questions. It is possible Curie has an in with the testing company and had all the answers beforehand. It is possible they were asking students about the questions and built up a test bank over the years, and the testing company was reusing questions. This guesswork as to what Curie did has evolved over two years into 'FACT' that Curie was debriefing students after the test, in violation of the agreement the students signed. More recently it became a FACT that Curie was telling kids to check the free meals box on the application. I don't think there is anyone who said they heard this at Curie. They then went on and said it was a FACT that Curie was advising them to fill out forms at their school when TJ started asking for verification of the free meals.
This is the part that is incontrovertibly true - although we don't know whether Curie ASKED for the materials or if they were simply provided. The rest of it I don't buy.
Makes them smart!
Makes them unethical. Probably not illegal or criminal, and therefore not worthy of an investigation, but certainly unethical given the amount of money they swindle out of the Indian community every year.
Capitalists engage in legal but unethical acts everyday - 24 hours a day! They sometimes say it is their fiduciary 'duty' to maximize profit and deliver the best possible service/product within the confines of the law. What the big deal?
The big deal is that they created imbalances in an admissions process that is supposed to be fair to all by delivering materials from a secured exam to constituents from a single ethnic group, and in so doing eliminated others from consideration in exchange for many thousands of dollars.
Financial resources are not supposed to be a de facto separator in the TJ admissions process, but under the old process (which yielded less than 1% FARMS over 30 years) it undeniably was.
So are we back to advocating for quotas? A lottery? Or just giving poor and URM bonus points? I've lost track of what the goal is? Level playing field, equal opportunity, equal outcome, or something else?
Explaining how the system got so screwed up isn't the same as asking for quotas. Do you do this simply to distract from a meaningful discussion of where things went wrong?
Not everyone believes a competitive process involving a standardized test is something going wrong. Some believe that what went wrong is nothing more than Asians being overwhelmingly successful and dominating admissions to the dislike of the school board and FCPS parents that decided to discriminate against Asians to socially engineer admissions.
The cheating issue was one issue. Another is declining numbers of applicants which shows there's a problem somewhere. It's a real issue that you can't just decide didn't happen.
But there is a plausible simple explanation - if you know you have no chance of getting in you choose not to apply. If you are mediocre at violin or something, you don't opt to try out for an elite string group. The same thing may have happened at TJ. We do not know. On this board, I have heard many times that white students stopped applying because they did not like the "toxic" culture of TJ produced by an 80% Asian student body. Still not sure what the definition of "toxic" is in that statement.
NP, but I'll take a stab since you seem to be struggling with basics... perhaps an unhealthy degree of competition amongst students within the school that undermined the academic environment... not to say that students couldn't still achieve and learn, but did so in a manner that was unnecessarily poisonous to mental health for too large of a proportion of the student body.
Anything at the top level is hyper-competitive, Olympic level competitions, NFL, NBA, World Cup. Nature of the game. if you can't stand the heat, Get out the kitchen.
Rather than discouraging people who could otherwise be at that level, a better solution is to fix the toxic poisonous atmosphere.
Asians are severely under-represented in the Olympic teams. We must hire DEI officers to increase under represented Asians in these teams. Black and white athletes will be better served by being exposed to more diverse people and diverse perspectives -invaluable lessons! Oh, and it will reduce the toxic and poisonous atmospheres of those hyper competitive teams.
Asians are under-represented among the DEI officers and Asians must make up at least 6.5% of those DEI employees.
+1. Asians make up less than 1%.
They would probably be worse than the regular DEI employees, targeting Asians as being against the principles of equity.
Anonymous wrote:All I know is that the URM lady who works as an admin assistant at my wife's company with an IQ of like 90 now has a daughter at TJ so we know the new system is doing too well lol
There are some many things wrong with this post I can't even...
It helps them feel less bitter by talking made-up trash who cares. I know it's frustrating for a lot of parents since the new system is harder to game, and they need to vent somewhere.
Actually, the new system is easier to game.
Well, you used to be able to buy the test answers so it was easier for people with money.
Where did you buy your answers?
The prep centers were conducting exit interviews on students who had taken the test. This allowed them to compile question banks. Many of these questions would show up in subsequent years. It wasn't really a big secret. Everyone knew it was going on. How do you think one prep center got 30% of those admitted in one year? Do you think it was talent? LOLOL
Everyone knows this was going on. It's why the county had to change the selection criteria. I'm not sure why these posters want to keep it secret even now since the cats out of the bag.
The cheating was so out of control that they had to scrap the whole selection process and come up with what we have now.
Amazing that they had evidence of out of control cheating, but didn't use that in the lawsuit to justify their admissions changes. Seems like it would be a slam dunk win to show that the changes needed to happen due to rampant cheating.
+1 Cheating would have been a good defense to raise if it really happened.
No, FCPS neither wanted to, nor could prove it. It would be attacking students, when they found a better solution by changing the admissions process.
If they couldn't prove it, that means there's no actual evidence. Thanks for admitting that the "cheating scandal" is just hearsay and a conspiracy theory.
Exactly. People went from some kids saying they saw the questions, to Curie was buying the test, or was debriefing the students about what questions were on it to make a question bank for next year.
Maybe it's true, or maybe they got their hand on some sample questions. but it's just guessing.
It is FALSE that Curie bought the test or that their students had access to all of the exam questions prior to sitting for the exam.
It is TRUE that Curie students reported that, when they sat for the Quant-Q, they realized they’d seen SOME of the exact questions before and had been shown how to solve essentially all of them, step by step, at Curie.
How do you know these are FALSE or TRUE? Did the Curie students report they saw SOME or ALL?
I'd heard that the this was true. Not sure about the first statement though I have no idea where they got answers.
That was my point. It is known some students said they saw the answers at Curie. I think it was all the answers that they said, but people including me surmised that they were probably shown material similar to some of the questions. It is possible Curie has an in with the testing company and had all the answers beforehand. It is possible they were asking students about the questions and built up a test bank over the years, and the testing company was reusing questions. This guesswork as to what Curie did has evolved over two years into 'FACT' that Curie was debriefing students after the test, in violation of the agreement the students signed. More recently it became a FACT that Curie was telling kids to check the free meals box on the application. I don't think there is anyone who said they heard this at Curie. They then went on and said it was a FACT that Curie was advising them to fill out forms at their school when TJ started asking for verification of the free meals.
This is the part that is incontrovertibly true - although we don't know whether Curie ASKED for the materials or if they were simply provided. The rest of it I don't buy.
Makes them smart!
Makes them unethical. Probably not illegal or criminal, and therefore not worthy of an investigation, but certainly unethical given the amount of money they swindle out of the Indian community every year.
Capitalists engage in legal but unethical acts everyday - 24 hours a day! They sometimes say it is their fiduciary 'duty' to maximize profit and deliver the best possible service/product within the confines of the law. What the big deal?
The big deal is that they created imbalances in an admissions process that is supposed to be fair to all by delivering materials from a secured exam to constituents from a single ethnic group, and in so doing eliminated others from consideration in exchange for many thousands of dollars.
Financial resources are not supposed to be a de facto separator in the TJ admissions process, but under the old process (which yielded less than 1% FARMS over 30 years) it undeniably was.
So are we back to advocating for quotas? A lottery? Or just giving poor and URM bonus points? I've lost track of what the goal is? Level playing field, equal opportunity, equal outcome, or something else?
Explaining how the system got so screwed up isn't the same as asking for quotas. Do you do this simply to distract from a meaningful discussion of where things went wrong?
Not everyone believes a competitive process involving a standardized test is something going wrong. Some believe that what went wrong is nothing more than Asians being overwhelmingly successful and dominating admissions to the dislike of the school board and FCPS parents that decided to discriminate against Asians to socially engineer admissions.
The cheating issue was one issue. Another is declining numbers of applicants which shows there's a problem somewhere. It's a real issue that you can't just decide didn't happen.
But there is a plausible simple explanation - if you know you have no chance of getting in you choose not to apply. If you are mediocre at violin or something, you don't opt to try out for an elite string group. The same thing may have happened at TJ. We do not know. On this board, I have heard many times that white students stopped applying because they did not like the "toxic" culture of TJ produced by an 80% Asian student body. Still not sure what the definition of "toxic" is in that statement.
NP, but I'll take a stab since you seem to be struggling with basics... perhaps an unhealthy degree of competition amongst students within the school that undermined the academic environment... not to say that students couldn't still achieve and learn, but did so in a manner that was unnecessarily poisonous to mental health for too large of a proportion of the student body.
Anything at the top level is hyper-competitive, Olympic level competitions, NFL, NBA, World Cup. Nature of the game. if you can't stand the heat, Get out the kitchen.
Rather than discouraging people who could otherwise be at that level, a better solution is to fix the toxic poisonous atmosphere.
Asians are severely under-represented in the Olympic teams. We must hire DEI officers to increase under represented Asians in these teams. Black and white athletes will be better served by being exposed to more diverse people and diverse perspectives -invaluable lessons! Oh, and it will reduce the toxic and poisonous atmospheres of those hyper competitive teams.
Asians are under-represented among the DEI officers and Asians must make up at least 6.5% of those DEI employees.
+1. Asians make up less than 1%.
Because we're too smart to take such a dumb job. You sound like you want to force us to work in positions that we aren't choosing -- there's a word for that...
Those are nice jobs - you make six figure income for doing almost nothing.
Until you get axed. They're the first to go.
Not really. There is always demand for these jobs and no layoffs!
Harvard has about the same number of administrators as undergraduate students.
When I was in college, we had a sofa that was broken. One kid tried asking different people, and eventually met with the undergraduate dean. He really wasn't doing anything normally, and got us a new couch quick.
Anonymous wrote:All I know is that the URM lady who works as an admin assistant at my wife's company with an IQ of like 90 now has a daughter at TJ so we know the new system is doing too well lol
There are some many things wrong with this post I can't even...
It helps them feel less bitter by talking made-up trash who cares. I know it's frustrating for a lot of parents since the new system is harder to game, and they need to vent somewhere.
Actually, the new system is easier to game.
Well, you used to be able to buy the test answers so it was easier for people with money.
Where did you buy your answers?
The prep centers were conducting exit interviews on students who had taken the test. This allowed them to compile question banks. Many of these questions would show up in subsequent years. It wasn't really a big secret. Everyone knew it was going on. How do you think one prep center got 30% of those admitted in one year? Do you think it was talent? LOLOL
Everyone knows this was going on. It's why the county had to change the selection criteria. I'm not sure why these posters want to keep it secret even now since the cats out of the bag.
The cheating was so out of control that they had to scrap the whole selection process and come up with what we have now.
Amazing that they had evidence of out of control cheating, but didn't use that in the lawsuit to justify their admissions changes. Seems like it would be a slam dunk win to show that the changes needed to happen due to rampant cheating.
+1 Cheating would have been a good defense to raise if it really happened.
No, FCPS neither wanted to, nor could prove it. It would be attacking students, when they found a better solution by changing the admissions process.
If they couldn't prove it, that means there's no actual evidence. Thanks for admitting that the "cheating scandal" is just hearsay and a conspiracy theory.
Exactly. People went from some kids saying they saw the questions, to Curie was buying the test, or was debriefing the students about what questions were on it to make a question bank for next year.
Maybe it's true, or maybe they got their hand on some sample questions. but it's just guessing.
It is FALSE that Curie bought the test or that their students had access to all of the exam questions prior to sitting for the exam.
It is TRUE that Curie students reported that, when they sat for the Quant-Q, they realized they’d seen SOME of the exact questions before and had been shown how to solve essentially all of them, step by step, at Curie.
How do you know these are FALSE or TRUE? Did the Curie students report they saw SOME or ALL?
I'd heard that the this was true. Not sure about the first statement though I have no idea where they got answers.
That was my point. It is known some students said they saw the answers at Curie. I think it was all the answers that they said, but people including me surmised that they were probably shown material similar to some of the questions. It is possible Curie has an in with the testing company and had all the answers beforehand. It is possible they were asking students about the questions and built up a test bank over the years, and the testing company was reusing questions. This guesswork as to what Curie did has evolved over two years into 'FACT' that Curie was debriefing students after the test, in violation of the agreement the students signed. More recently it became a FACT that Curie was telling kids to check the free meals box on the application. I don't think there is anyone who said they heard this at Curie. They then went on and said it was a FACT that Curie was advising them to fill out forms at their school when TJ started asking for verification of the free meals.
This is the part that is incontrovertibly true - although we don't know whether Curie ASKED for the materials or if they were simply provided. The rest of it I don't buy.
Makes them smart!
Makes them unethical. Probably not illegal or criminal, and therefore not worthy of an investigation, but certainly unethical given the amount of money they swindle out of the Indian community every year.
Capitalists engage in legal but unethical acts everyday - 24 hours a day! They sometimes say it is their fiduciary 'duty' to maximize profit and deliver the best possible service/product within the confines of the law. What the big deal?
The big deal is that they created imbalances in an admissions process that is supposed to be fair to all by delivering materials from a secured exam to constituents from a single ethnic group, and in so doing eliminated others from consideration in exchange for many thousands of dollars.
Financial resources are not supposed to be a de facto separator in the TJ admissions process, but under the old process (which yielded less than 1% FARMS over 30 years) it undeniably was.
So are we back to advocating for quotas? A lottery? Or just giving poor and URM bonus points? I've lost track of what the goal is? Level playing field, equal opportunity, equal outcome, or something else?
Explaining how the system got so screwed up isn't the same as asking for quotas. Do you do this simply to distract from a meaningful discussion of where things went wrong?
Not everyone believes a competitive process involving a standardized test is something going wrong. Some believe that what went wrong is nothing more than Asians being overwhelmingly successful and dominating admissions to the dislike of the school board and FCPS parents that decided to discriminate against Asians to socially engineer admissions.
The cheating issue was one issue. Another is declining numbers of applicants which shows there's a problem somewhere. It's a real issue that you can't just decide didn't happen.
But there is a plausible simple explanation - if you know you have no chance of getting in you choose not to apply. If you are mediocre at violin or something, you don't opt to try out for an elite string group. The same thing may have happened at TJ. We do not know. On this board, I have heard many times that white students stopped applying because they did not like the "toxic" culture of TJ produced by an 80% Asian student body. Still not sure what the definition of "toxic" is in that statement.
NP, but I'll take a stab since you seem to be struggling with basics... perhaps an unhealthy degree of competition amongst students within the school that undermined the academic environment... not to say that students couldn't still achieve and learn, but did so in a manner that was unnecessarily poisonous to mental health for too large of a proportion of the student body.
Anything at the top level is hyper-competitive, Olympic level competitions, NFL, NBA, World Cup. Nature of the game. if you can't stand the heat, Get out the kitchen.
Recent data indicates that success in youth sports has more to do with money spent than actual talent, which indicates that it's just like academics.
Anonymous wrote:All I know is that the URM lady who works as an admin assistant at my wife's company with an IQ of like 90 now has a daughter at TJ so we know the new system is doing too well lol
There are some many things wrong with this post I can't even...
It helps them feel less bitter by talking made-up trash who cares. I know it's frustrating for a lot of parents since the new system is harder to game, and they need to vent somewhere.
Actually, the new system is easier to game.
Well, you used to be able to buy the test answers so it was easier for people with money.
Where did you buy your answers?
The prep centers were conducting exit interviews on students who had taken the test. This allowed them to compile question banks. Many of these questions would show up in subsequent years. It wasn't really a big secret. Everyone knew it was going on. How do you think one prep center got 30% of those admitted in one year? Do you think it was talent? LOLOL
Everyone knows this was going on. It's why the county had to change the selection criteria. I'm not sure why these posters want to keep it secret even now since the cats out of the bag.
The cheating was so out of control that they had to scrap the whole selection process and come up with what we have now.
Amazing that they had evidence of out of control cheating, but didn't use that in the lawsuit to justify their admissions changes. Seems like it would be a slam dunk win to show that the changes needed to happen due to rampant cheating.
+1 Cheating would have been a good defense to raise if it really happened.
No, FCPS neither wanted to, nor could prove it. It would be attacking students, when they found a better solution by changing the admissions process.
If they couldn't prove it, that means there's no actual evidence. Thanks for admitting that the "cheating scandal" is just hearsay and a conspiracy theory.
Exactly. People went from some kids saying they saw the questions, to Curie was buying the test, or was debriefing the students about what questions were on it to make a question bank for next year.
Maybe it's true, or maybe they got their hand on some sample questions. but it's just guessing.
It is FALSE that Curie bought the test or that their students had access to all of the exam questions prior to sitting for the exam.
It is TRUE that Curie students reported that, when they sat for the Quant-Q, they realized they’d seen SOME of the exact questions before and had been shown how to solve essentially all of them, step by step, at Curie.
How do you know these are FALSE or TRUE? Did the Curie students report they saw SOME or ALL?
I'd heard that the this was true. Not sure about the first statement though I have no idea where they got answers.
That was my point. It is known some students said they saw the answers at Curie. I think it was all the answers that they said, but people including me surmised that they were probably shown material similar to some of the questions. It is possible Curie has an in with the testing company and had all the answers beforehand. It is possible they were asking students about the questions and built up a test bank over the years, and the testing company was reusing questions. This guesswork as to what Curie did has evolved over two years into 'FACT' that Curie was debriefing students after the test, in violation of the agreement the students signed. More recently it became a FACT that Curie was telling kids to check the free meals box on the application. I don't think there is anyone who said they heard this at Curie. They then went on and said it was a FACT that Curie was advising them to fill out forms at their school when TJ started asking for verification of the free meals.
This is the part that is incontrovertibly true - although we don't know whether Curie ASKED for the materials or if they were simply provided. The rest of it I don't buy.
Makes them smart!
Makes them unethical. Probably not illegal or criminal, and therefore not worthy of an investigation, but certainly unethical given the amount of money they swindle out of the Indian community every year.
Capitalists engage in legal but unethical acts everyday - 24 hours a day! They sometimes say it is their fiduciary 'duty' to maximize profit and deliver the best possible service/product within the confines of the law. What the big deal?
The big deal is that they created imbalances in an admissions process that is supposed to be fair to all by delivering materials from a secured exam to constituents from a single ethnic group, and in so doing eliminated others from consideration in exchange for many thousands of dollars.
Financial resources are not supposed to be a de facto separator in the TJ admissions process, but under the old process (which yielded less than 1% FARMS over 30 years) it undeniably was.
So are we back to advocating for quotas? A lottery? Or just giving poor and URM bonus points? I've lost track of what the goal is? Level playing field, equal opportunity, equal outcome, or something else?
Explaining how the system got so screwed up isn't the same as asking for quotas. Do you do this simply to distract from a meaningful discussion of where things went wrong?
Not everyone believes a competitive process involving a standardized test is something going wrong. Some believe that what went wrong is nothing more than Asians being overwhelmingly successful and dominating admissions to the dislike of the school board and FCPS parents that decided to discriminate against Asians to socially engineer admissions.
The cheating issue was one issue. Another is declining numbers of applicants which shows there's a problem somewhere. It's a real issue that you can't just decide didn't happen.
But there is a plausible simple explanation - if you know you have no chance of getting in you choose not to apply. If you are mediocre at violin or something, you don't opt to try out for an elite string group. The same thing may have happened at TJ. We do not know. On this board, I have heard many times that white students stopped applying because they did not like the "toxic" culture of TJ produced by an 80% Asian student body. Still not sure what the definition of "toxic" is in that statement.
NP, but I'll take a stab since you seem to be struggling with basics... perhaps an unhealthy degree of competition amongst students within the school that undermined the academic environment... not to say that students couldn't still achieve and learn, but did so in a manner that was unnecessarily poisonous to mental health for too large of a proportion of the student body.
Anything at the top level is hyper-competitive, Olympic level competitions, NFL, NBA, World Cup. Nature of the game. if you can't stand the heat, Get out the kitchen.
Recent data indicates that success in youth sports has more to do with money spent than actual talent, which indicates that it's just like academics.
Anonymous wrote:All I know is that the URM lady who works as an admin assistant at my wife's company with an IQ of like 90 now has a daughter at TJ so we know the new system is doing too well lol
There are some many things wrong with this post I can't even...
It helps them feel less bitter by talking made-up trash who cares. I know it's frustrating for a lot of parents since the new system is harder to game, and they need to vent somewhere.
Actually, the new system is easier to game.
Well, you used to be able to buy the test answers so it was easier for people with money.
Where did you buy your answers?
The prep centers were conducting exit interviews on students who had taken the test. This allowed them to compile question banks. Many of these questions would show up in subsequent years. It wasn't really a big secret. Everyone knew it was going on. How do you think one prep center got 30% of those admitted in one year? Do you think it was talent? LOLOL
Everyone knows this was going on. It's why the county had to change the selection criteria. I'm not sure why these posters want to keep it secret even now since the cats out of the bag.
The cheating was so out of control that they had to scrap the whole selection process and come up with what we have now.
Amazing that they had evidence of out of control cheating, but didn't use that in the lawsuit to justify their admissions changes. Seems like it would be a slam dunk win to show that the changes needed to happen due to rampant cheating.
+1 Cheating would have been a good defense to raise if it really happened.
No, FCPS neither wanted to, nor could prove it. It would be attacking students, when they found a better solution by changing the admissions process.
If they couldn't prove it, that means there's no actual evidence. Thanks for admitting that the "cheating scandal" is just hearsay and a conspiracy theory.
Exactly. People went from some kids saying they saw the questions, to Curie was buying the test, or was debriefing the students about what questions were on it to make a question bank for next year.
Maybe it's true, or maybe they got their hand on some sample questions. but it's just guessing.
It is FALSE that Curie bought the test or that their students had access to all of the exam questions prior to sitting for the exam.
It is TRUE that Curie students reported that, when they sat for the Quant-Q, they realized they’d seen SOME of the exact questions before and had been shown how to solve essentially all of them, step by step, at Curie.
How do you know these are FALSE or TRUE? Did the Curie students report they saw SOME or ALL?
I'd heard that the this was true. Not sure about the first statement though I have no idea where they got answers.
That was my point. It is known some students said they saw the answers at Curie. I think it was all the answers that they said, but people including me surmised that they were probably shown material similar to some of the questions. It is possible Curie has an in with the testing company and had all the answers beforehand. It is possible they were asking students about the questions and built up a test bank over the years, and the testing company was reusing questions. This guesswork as to what Curie did has evolved over two years into 'FACT' that Curie was debriefing students after the test, in violation of the agreement the students signed. More recently it became a FACT that Curie was telling kids to check the free meals box on the application. I don't think there is anyone who said they heard this at Curie. They then went on and said it was a FACT that Curie was advising them to fill out forms at their school when TJ started asking for verification of the free meals.
This is the part that is incontrovertibly true - although we don't know whether Curie ASKED for the materials or if they were simply provided. The rest of it I don't buy.
Makes them smart!
Makes them unethical. Probably not illegal or criminal, and therefore not worthy of an investigation, but certainly unethical given the amount of money they swindle out of the Indian community every year.
Capitalists engage in legal but unethical acts everyday - 24 hours a day! They sometimes say it is their fiduciary 'duty' to maximize profit and deliver the best possible service/product within the confines of the law. What the big deal?
The big deal is that they created imbalances in an admissions process that is supposed to be fair to all by delivering materials from a secured exam to constituents from a single ethnic group, and in so doing eliminated others from consideration in exchange for many thousands of dollars.
Financial resources are not supposed to be a de facto separator in the TJ admissions process, but under the old process (which yielded less than 1% FARMS over 30 years) it undeniably was.
So are we back to advocating for quotas? A lottery? Or just giving poor and URM bonus points? I've lost track of what the goal is? Level playing field, equal opportunity, equal outcome, or something else?
Explaining how the system got so screwed up isn't the same as asking for quotas. Do you do this simply to distract from a meaningful discussion of where things went wrong?
Not everyone believes a competitive process involving a standardized test is something going wrong. Some believe that what went wrong is nothing more than Asians being overwhelmingly successful and dominating admissions to the dislike of the school board and FCPS parents that decided to discriminate against Asians to socially engineer admissions.
The cheating issue was one issue. Another is declining numbers of applicants which shows there's a problem somewhere. It's a real issue that you can't just decide didn't happen.
But there is a plausible simple explanation - if you know you have no chance of getting in you choose not to apply. If you are mediocre at violin or something, you don't opt to try out for an elite string group. The same thing may have happened at TJ. We do not know. On this board, I have heard many times that white students stopped applying because they did not like the "toxic" culture of TJ produced by an 80% Asian student body. Still not sure what the definition of "toxic" is in that statement.
NP, but I'll take a stab since you seem to be struggling with basics... perhaps an unhealthy degree of competition amongst students within the school that undermined the academic environment... not to say that students couldn't still achieve and learn, but did so in a manner that was unnecessarily poisonous to mental health for too large of a proportion of the student body.
Anything at the top level is hyper-competitive, Olympic level competitions, NFL, NBA, World Cup. Nature of the game. if you can't stand the heat, Get out the kitchen.
Recent data indicates that success in youth sports has more to do with money spent than actual talent, which indicates that it's just like academics.
Anonymous wrote:All I know is that the URM lady who works as an admin assistant at my wife's company with an IQ of like 90 now has a daughter at TJ so we know the new system is doing too well lol
There are some many things wrong with this post I can't even...
It helps them feel less bitter by talking made-up trash who cares. I know it's frustrating for a lot of parents since the new system is harder to game, and they need to vent somewhere.
Actually, the new system is easier to game.
Well, you used to be able to buy the test answers so it was easier for people with money.
Where did you buy your answers?
The prep centers were conducting exit interviews on students who had taken the test. This allowed them to compile question banks. Many of these questions would show up in subsequent years. It wasn't really a big secret. Everyone knew it was going on. How do you think one prep center got 30% of those admitted in one year? Do you think it was talent? LOLOL
Everyone knows this was going on. It's why the county had to change the selection criteria. I'm not sure why these posters want to keep it secret even now since the cats out of the bag.
The cheating was so out of control that they had to scrap the whole selection process and come up with what we have now.
Amazing that they had evidence of out of control cheating, but didn't use that in the lawsuit to justify their admissions changes. Seems like it would be a slam dunk win to show that the changes needed to happen due to rampant cheating.
+1 Cheating would have been a good defense to raise if it really happened.
No, FCPS neither wanted to, nor could prove it. It would be attacking students, when they found a better solution by changing the admissions process.
If they couldn't prove it, that means there's no actual evidence. Thanks for admitting that the "cheating scandal" is just hearsay and a conspiracy theory.
Exactly. People went from some kids saying they saw the questions, to Curie was buying the test, or was debriefing the students about what questions were on it to make a question bank for next year.
Maybe it's true, or maybe they got their hand on some sample questions. but it's just guessing.
It is FALSE that Curie bought the test or that their students had access to all of the exam questions prior to sitting for the exam.
It is TRUE that Curie students reported that, when they sat for the Quant-Q, they realized they’d seen SOME of the exact questions before and had been shown how to solve essentially all of them, step by step, at Curie.
How do you know these are FALSE or TRUE? Did the Curie students report they saw SOME or ALL?
I'd heard that the this was true. Not sure about the first statement though I have no idea where they got answers.
That was my point. It is known some students said they saw the answers at Curie. I think it was all the answers that they said, but people including me surmised that they were probably shown material similar to some of the questions. It is possible Curie has an in with the testing company and had all the answers beforehand. It is possible they were asking students about the questions and built up a test bank over the years, and the testing company was reusing questions. This guesswork as to what Curie did has evolved over two years into 'FACT' that Curie was debriefing students after the test, in violation of the agreement the students signed. More recently it became a FACT that Curie was telling kids to check the free meals box on the application. I don't think there is anyone who said they heard this at Curie. They then went on and said it was a FACT that Curie was advising them to fill out forms at their school when TJ started asking for verification of the free meals.
This is the part that is incontrovertibly true - although we don't know whether Curie ASKED for the materials or if they were simply provided. The rest of it I don't buy.
Makes them smart!
Makes them unethical. Probably not illegal or criminal, and therefore not worthy of an investigation, but certainly unethical given the amount of money they swindle out of the Indian community every year.
Capitalists engage in legal but unethical acts everyday - 24 hours a day! They sometimes say it is their fiduciary 'duty' to maximize profit and deliver the best possible service/product within the confines of the law. What the big deal?
The big deal is that they created imbalances in an admissions process that is supposed to be fair to all by delivering materials from a secured exam to constituents from a single ethnic group, and in so doing eliminated others from consideration in exchange for many thousands of dollars.
Financial resources are not supposed to be a de facto separator in the TJ admissions process, but under the old process (which yielded less than 1% FARMS over 30 years) it undeniably was.
So are we back to advocating for quotas? A lottery? Or just giving poor and URM bonus points? I've lost track of what the goal is? Level playing field, equal opportunity, equal outcome, or something else?
Explaining how the system got so screwed up isn't the same as asking for quotas. Do you do this simply to distract from a meaningful discussion of where things went wrong?
Not everyone believes a competitive process involving a standardized test is something going wrong. Some believe that what went wrong is nothing more than Asians being overwhelmingly successful and dominating admissions to the dislike of the school board and FCPS parents that decided to discriminate against Asians to socially engineer admissions.
The cheating issue was one issue. Another is declining numbers of applicants which shows there's a problem somewhere. It's a real issue that you can't just decide didn't happen.
But there is a plausible simple explanation - if you know you have no chance of getting in you choose not to apply. If you are mediocre at violin or something, you don't opt to try out for an elite string group. The same thing may have happened at TJ. We do not know. On this board, I have heard many times that white students stopped applying because they did not like the "toxic" culture of TJ produced by an 80% Asian student body. Still not sure what the definition of "toxic" is in that statement.
NP, but I'll take a stab since you seem to be struggling with basics... perhaps an unhealthy degree of competition amongst students within the school that undermined the academic environment... not to say that students couldn't still achieve and learn, but did so in a manner that was unnecessarily poisonous to mental health for too large of a proportion of the student body.
Anything at the top level is hyper-competitive, Olympic level competitions, NFL, NBA, World Cup. Nature of the game. if you can't stand the heat, Get out the kitchen.
Recent data indicates that success in youth sports has more to do with money spent than actual talent, which indicates that it's just like academics.
Then, why do posters only attack academics? Academics is more important than sports. Hypocrites.
Not sure there's anything to attack here. It's more of a statement of fact and as to importance that's subjective.
I guess it might have something to do with that academic opportunities should be open to all residents not just those who spend the most money. With sports, personally, I personally believe that is of any value, but yes if public money is supporting that nonsense by all means the playing field should be leveled. Nevertheless, the best outcome in my opinion would be that public dollars were spent on education not sports that cater mainly to a small group of enthusiats.
Anonymous wrote:All I know is that the URM lady who works as an admin assistant at my wife's company with an IQ of like 90 now has a daughter at TJ so we know the new system is doing too well lol
There are some many things wrong with this post I can't even...
It helps them feel less bitter by talking made-up trash who cares. I know it's frustrating for a lot of parents since the new system is harder to game, and they need to vent somewhere.
Actually, the new system is easier to game.
Well, you used to be able to buy the test answers so it was easier for people with money.
Where did you buy your answers?
The prep centers were conducting exit interviews on students who had taken the test. This allowed them to compile question banks. Many of these questions would show up in subsequent years. It wasn't really a big secret. Everyone knew it was going on. How do you think one prep center got 30% of those admitted in one year? Do you think it was talent? LOLOL
Everyone knows this was going on. It's why the county had to change the selection criteria. I'm not sure why these posters want to keep it secret even now since the cats out of the bag.
The cheating was so out of control that they had to scrap the whole selection process and come up with what we have now.
Amazing that they had evidence of out of control cheating, but didn't use that in the lawsuit to justify their admissions changes. Seems like it would be a slam dunk win to show that the changes needed to happen due to rampant cheating.
+1 Cheating would have been a good defense to raise if it really happened.
No, FCPS neither wanted to, nor could prove it. It would be attacking students, when they found a better solution by changing the admissions process.
If they couldn't prove it, that means there's no actual evidence. Thanks for admitting that the "cheating scandal" is just hearsay and a conspiracy theory.
Exactly. People went from some kids saying they saw the questions, to Curie was buying the test, or was debriefing the students about what questions were on it to make a question bank for next year.
Maybe it's true, or maybe they got their hand on some sample questions. but it's just guessing.
It is FALSE that Curie bought the test or that their students had access to all of the exam questions prior to sitting for the exam.
It is TRUE that Curie students reported that, when they sat for the Quant-Q, they realized they’d seen SOME of the exact questions before and had been shown how to solve essentially all of them, step by step, at Curie.
How do you know these are FALSE or TRUE? Did the Curie students report they saw SOME or ALL?
I'd heard that the this was true. Not sure about the first statement though I have no idea where they got answers.
That was my point. It is known some students said they saw the answers at Curie. I think it was all the answers that they said, but people including me surmised that they were probably shown material similar to some of the questions. It is possible Curie has an in with the testing company and had all the answers beforehand. It is possible they were asking students about the questions and built up a test bank over the years, and the testing company was reusing questions. This guesswork as to what Curie did has evolved over two years into 'FACT' that Curie was debriefing students after the test, in violation of the agreement the students signed. More recently it became a FACT that Curie was telling kids to check the free meals box on the application. I don't think there is anyone who said they heard this at Curie. They then went on and said it was a FACT that Curie was advising them to fill out forms at their school when TJ started asking for verification of the free meals.
This is the part that is incontrovertibly true - although we don't know whether Curie ASKED for the materials or if they were simply provided. The rest of it I don't buy.
Makes them smart!
Makes them unethical. Probably not illegal or criminal, and therefore not worthy of an investigation, but certainly unethical given the amount of money they swindle out of the Indian community every year.
Capitalists engage in legal but unethical acts everyday - 24 hours a day! They sometimes say it is their fiduciary 'duty' to maximize profit and deliver the best possible service/product within the confines of the law. What the big deal?
The big deal is that they created imbalances in an admissions process that is supposed to be fair to all by delivering materials from a secured exam to constituents from a single ethnic group, and in so doing eliminated others from consideration in exchange for many thousands of dollars.
Financial resources are not supposed to be a de facto separator in the TJ admissions process, but under the old process (which yielded less than 1% FARMS over 30 years) it undeniably was.
So are we back to advocating for quotas? A lottery? Or just giving poor and URM bonus points? I've lost track of what the goal is? Level playing field, equal opportunity, equal outcome, or something else?
Explaining how the system got so screwed up isn't the same as asking for quotas. Do you do this simply to distract from a meaningful discussion of where things went wrong?
Not everyone believes a competitive process involving a standardized test is something going wrong. Some believe that what went wrong is nothing more than Asians being overwhelmingly successful and dominating admissions to the dislike of the school board and FCPS parents that decided to discriminate against Asians to socially engineer admissions.
The cheating issue was one issue. Another is declining numbers of applicants which shows there's a problem somewhere. It's a real issue that you can't just decide didn't happen.
But there is a plausible simple explanation - if you know you have no chance of getting in you choose not to apply. If you are mediocre at violin or something, you don't opt to try out for an elite string group. The same thing may have happened at TJ. We do not know. On this board, I have heard many times that white students stopped applying because they did not like the "toxic" culture of TJ produced by an 80% Asian student body. Still not sure what the definition of "toxic" is in that statement.
NP, but I'll take a stab since you seem to be struggling with basics... perhaps an unhealthy degree of competition amongst students within the school that undermined the academic environment... not to say that students couldn't still achieve and learn, but did so in a manner that was unnecessarily poisonous to mental health for too large of a proportion of the student body.
Anything at the top level is hyper-competitive, Olympic level competitions, NFL, NBA, World Cup. Nature of the game. if you can't stand the heat, Get out the kitchen.
Recent data indicates that success in youth sports has more to do with money spent than actual talent, which indicates that it's just like academics.
Then, why do posters only attack academics? Academics is more important than sports. Hypocrites.
Not sure there's anything to attack here. It's more of a statement of fact and as to importance that's subjective.
I guess it might have something to do with that academic opportunities should be open to all residents not just those who spend the most money. With sports, personally, I personally believe that is of any value, but yes if public money is supporting that nonsense by all means the playing field should be leveled. Nevertheless, the best outcome in my opinion would be that public dollars were spent on education not sports that cater mainly to a small group of enthusiats.
Sport teams are funded by taxpayers' money so they should reflect the demographics of the county. Fairfax county has almost 20% Asian students so all sport teams must include 20% players!
Anonymous wrote:All I know is that the URM lady who works as an admin assistant at my wife's company with an IQ of like 90 now has a daughter at TJ so we know the new system is doing too well lol
There are some many things wrong with this post I can't even...
It helps them feel less bitter by talking made-up trash who cares. I know it's frustrating for a lot of parents since the new system is harder to game, and they need to vent somewhere.
Actually, the new system is easier to game.
Well, you used to be able to buy the test answers so it was easier for people with money.
Where did you buy your answers?
The prep centers were conducting exit interviews on students who had taken the test. This allowed them to compile question banks. Many of these questions would show up in subsequent years. It wasn't really a big secret. Everyone knew it was going on. How do you think one prep center got 30% of those admitted in one year? Do you think it was talent? LOLOL
Everyone knows this was going on. It's why the county had to change the selection criteria. I'm not sure why these posters want to keep it secret even now since the cats out of the bag.
The cheating was so out of control that they had to scrap the whole selection process and come up with what we have now.
Amazing that they had evidence of out of control cheating, but didn't use that in the lawsuit to justify their admissions changes. Seems like it would be a slam dunk win to show that the changes needed to happen due to rampant cheating.
+1 Cheating would have been a good defense to raise if it really happened.
No, FCPS neither wanted to, nor could prove it. It would be attacking students, when they found a better solution by changing the admissions process.
If they couldn't prove it, that means there's no actual evidence. Thanks for admitting that the "cheating scandal" is just hearsay and a conspiracy theory.
Exactly. People went from some kids saying they saw the questions, to Curie was buying the test, or was debriefing the students about what questions were on it to make a question bank for next year.
Maybe it's true, or maybe they got their hand on some sample questions. but it's just guessing.
It is FALSE that Curie bought the test or that their students had access to all of the exam questions prior to sitting for the exam.
It is TRUE that Curie students reported that, when they sat for the Quant-Q, they realized they’d seen SOME of the exact questions before and had been shown how to solve essentially all of them, step by step, at Curie.
How do you know these are FALSE or TRUE? Did the Curie students report they saw SOME or ALL?
I'd heard that the this was true. Not sure about the first statement though I have no idea where they got answers.
That was my point. It is known some students said they saw the answers at Curie. I think it was all the answers that they said, but people including me surmised that they were probably shown material similar to some of the questions. It is possible Curie has an in with the testing company and had all the answers beforehand. It is possible they were asking students about the questions and built up a test bank over the years, and the testing company was reusing questions. This guesswork as to what Curie did has evolved over two years into 'FACT' that Curie was debriefing students after the test, in violation of the agreement the students signed. More recently it became a FACT that Curie was telling kids to check the free meals box on the application. I don't think there is anyone who said they heard this at Curie. They then went on and said it was a FACT that Curie was advising them to fill out forms at their school when TJ started asking for verification of the free meals.
This is the part that is incontrovertibly true - although we don't know whether Curie ASKED for the materials or if they were simply provided. The rest of it I don't buy.
Makes them smart!
Makes them unethical. Probably not illegal or criminal, and therefore not worthy of an investigation, but certainly unethical given the amount of money they swindle out of the Indian community every year.
Capitalists engage in legal but unethical acts everyday - 24 hours a day! They sometimes say it is their fiduciary 'duty' to maximize profit and deliver the best possible service/product within the confines of the law. What the big deal?
The big deal is that they created imbalances in an admissions process that is supposed to be fair to all by delivering materials from a secured exam to constituents from a single ethnic group, and in so doing eliminated others from consideration in exchange for many thousands of dollars.
Financial resources are not supposed to be a de facto separator in the TJ admissions process, but under the old process (which yielded less than 1% FARMS over 30 years) it undeniably was.
So are we back to advocating for quotas? A lottery? Or just giving poor and URM bonus points? I've lost track of what the goal is? Level playing field, equal opportunity, equal outcome, or something else?
Explaining how the system got so screwed up isn't the same as asking for quotas. Do you do this simply to distract from a meaningful discussion of where things went wrong?
Not everyone believes a competitive process involving a standardized test is something going wrong. Some believe that what went wrong is nothing more than Asians being overwhelmingly successful and dominating admissions to the dislike of the school board and FCPS parents that decided to discriminate against Asians to socially engineer admissions.
The cheating issue was one issue. Another is declining numbers of applicants which shows there's a problem somewhere. It's a real issue that you can't just decide didn't happen.
But there is a plausible simple explanation - if you know you have no chance of getting in you choose not to apply. If you are mediocre at violin or something, you don't opt to try out for an elite string group. The same thing may have happened at TJ. We do not know. On this board, I have heard many times that white students stopped applying because they did not like the "toxic" culture of TJ produced by an 80% Asian student body. Still not sure what the definition of "toxic" is in that statement.
NP, but I'll take a stab since you seem to be struggling with basics... perhaps an unhealthy degree of competition amongst students within the school that undermined the academic environment... not to say that students couldn't still achieve and learn, but did so in a manner that was unnecessarily poisonous to mental health for too large of a proportion of the student body.
Anything at the top level is hyper-competitive, Olympic level competitions, NFL, NBA, World Cup. Nature of the game. if you can't stand the heat, Get out the kitchen.
Recent data indicates that success in youth sports has more to do with money spent than actual talent, which indicates that it's just like academics.
Then, why do posters only attack academics? Academics is more important than sports. Hypocrites.
Not sure there's anything to attack here. It's more of a statement of fact and as to importance that's subjective.
I guess it might have something to do with that academic opportunities should be open to all residents not just those who spend the most money. With sports, personally, I personally believe that is of any value, but yes if public money is supporting that nonsense by all means the playing field should be leveled. Nevertheless, the best outcome in my opinion would be that public dollars were spent on education not sports that cater mainly to a small group of enthusiats.
Sport teams are funded by taxpayers' money so they should reflect the demographics of the county. Fairfax county has almost 20% Asian students so all sport teams must include 20% players!
A better solution might be to stop funding the sports teams and use the surplus to give everyone free enrichment.
Anonymous wrote:All I know is that the URM lady who works as an admin assistant at my wife's company with an IQ of like 90 now has a daughter at TJ so we know the new system is doing too well lol
There are some many things wrong with this post I can't even...
It helps them feel less bitter by talking made-up trash who cares. I know it's frustrating for a lot of parents since the new system is harder to game, and they need to vent somewhere.
Actually, the new system is easier to game.
Well, you used to be able to buy the test answers so it was easier for people with money.
Where did you buy your answers?
The prep centers were conducting exit interviews on students who had taken the test. This allowed them to compile question banks. Many of these questions would show up in subsequent years. It wasn't really a big secret. Everyone knew it was going on. How do you think one prep center got 30% of those admitted in one year? Do you think it was talent? LOLOL
Everyone knows this was going on. It's why the county had to change the selection criteria. I'm not sure why these posters want to keep it secret even now since the cats out of the bag.
The cheating was so out of control that they had to scrap the whole selection process and come up with what we have now.
Amazing that they had evidence of out of control cheating, but didn't use that in the lawsuit to justify their admissions changes. Seems like it would be a slam dunk win to show that the changes needed to happen due to rampant cheating.
+1 Cheating would have been a good defense to raise if it really happened.
No, FCPS neither wanted to, nor could prove it. It would be attacking students, when they found a better solution by changing the admissions process.
If they couldn't prove it, that means there's no actual evidence. Thanks for admitting that the "cheating scandal" is just hearsay and a conspiracy theory.
Exactly. People went from some kids saying they saw the questions, to Curie was buying the test, or was debriefing the students about what questions were on it to make a question bank for next year.
Maybe it's true, or maybe they got their hand on some sample questions. but it's just guessing.
It is FALSE that Curie bought the test or that their students had access to all of the exam questions prior to sitting for the exam.
It is TRUE that Curie students reported that, when they sat for the Quant-Q, they realized they’d seen SOME of the exact questions before and had been shown how to solve essentially all of them, step by step, at Curie.
How do you know these are FALSE or TRUE? Did the Curie students report they saw SOME or ALL?
I'd heard that the this was true. Not sure about the first statement though I have no idea where they got answers.
That was my point. It is known some students said they saw the answers at Curie. I think it was all the answers that they said, but people including me surmised that they were probably shown material similar to some of the questions. It is possible Curie has an in with the testing company and had all the answers beforehand. It is possible they were asking students about the questions and built up a test bank over the years, and the testing company was reusing questions. This guesswork as to what Curie did has evolved over two years into 'FACT' that Curie was debriefing students after the test, in violation of the agreement the students signed. More recently it became a FACT that Curie was telling kids to check the free meals box on the application. I don't think there is anyone who said they heard this at Curie. They then went on and said it was a FACT that Curie was advising them to fill out forms at their school when TJ started asking for verification of the free meals.
This is the part that is incontrovertibly true - although we don't know whether Curie ASKED for the materials or if they were simply provided. The rest of it I don't buy.
Makes them smart!
Makes them unethical. Probably not illegal or criminal, and therefore not worthy of an investigation, but certainly unethical given the amount of money they swindle out of the Indian community every year.
Capitalists engage in legal but unethical acts everyday - 24 hours a day! They sometimes say it is their fiduciary 'duty' to maximize profit and deliver the best possible service/product within the confines of the law. What the big deal?
The big deal is that they created imbalances in an admissions process that is supposed to be fair to all by delivering materials from a secured exam to constituents from a single ethnic group, and in so doing eliminated others from consideration in exchange for many thousands of dollars.
Financial resources are not supposed to be a de facto separator in the TJ admissions process, but under the old process (which yielded less than 1% FARMS over 30 years) it undeniably was.
So are we back to advocating for quotas? A lottery? Or just giving poor and URM bonus points? I've lost track of what the goal is? Level playing field, equal opportunity, equal outcome, or something else?
Explaining how the system got so screwed up isn't the same as asking for quotas. Do you do this simply to distract from a meaningful discussion of where things went wrong?
Not everyone believes a competitive process involving a standardized test is something going wrong. Some believe that what went wrong is nothing more than Asians being overwhelmingly successful and dominating admissions to the dislike of the school board and FCPS parents that decided to discriminate against Asians to socially engineer admissions.
The cheating issue was one issue. Another is declining numbers of applicants which shows there's a problem somewhere. It's a real issue that you can't just decide didn't happen.
But there is a plausible simple explanation - if you know you have no chance of getting in you choose not to apply. If you are mediocre at violin or something, you don't opt to try out for an elite string group. The same thing may have happened at TJ. We do not know. On this board, I have heard many times that white students stopped applying because they did not like the "toxic" culture of TJ produced by an 80% Asian student body. Still not sure what the definition of "toxic" is in that statement.
NP, but I'll take a stab since you seem to be struggling with basics... perhaps an unhealthy degree of competition amongst students within the school that undermined the academic environment... not to say that students couldn't still achieve and learn, but did so in a manner that was unnecessarily poisonous to mental health for too large of a proportion of the student body.
Anything at the top level is hyper-competitive, Olympic level competitions, NFL, NBA, World Cup. Nature of the game. if you can't stand the heat, Get out the kitchen.
Recent data indicates that success in youth sports has more to do with money spent than actual talent, which indicates that it's just like academics.
Then, why do posters only attack academics? Academics is more important than sports. Hypocrites.
Not sure there's anything to attack here. It's more of a statement of fact and as to importance that's subjective.
I guess it might have something to do with that academic opportunities should be open to all residents not just those who spend the most money. With sports, personally, I personally believe that is of any value, but yes if public money is supporting that nonsense by all means the playing field should be leveled. Nevertheless, the best outcome in my opinion would be that public dollars were spent on education not sports that cater mainly to a small group of enthusiats.
Sport teams are funded by taxpayers' money so they should reflect the demographics of the county. Fairfax county has almost 20% Asian students so all sport teams must include 20% players!
A better solution might be to stop funding the sports teams and use the surplus to give everyone free enrichment.
No EQUITY demands that Asians make up 20% of ALL sport teams in all public schools in fcps! All students benefit by being exposed to different races, groups and perspectives!
Anonymous wrote:All I know is that the URM lady who works as an admin assistant at my wife's company with an IQ of like 90 now has a daughter at TJ so we know the new system is doing too well lol
There are some many things wrong with this post I can't even...
It helps them feel less bitter by talking made-up trash who cares. I know it's frustrating for a lot of parents since the new system is harder to game, and they need to vent somewhere.
Actually, the new system is easier to game.
Well, you used to be able to buy the test answers so it was easier for people with money.
Where did you buy your answers?
The prep centers were conducting exit interviews on students who had taken the test. This allowed them to compile question banks. Many of these questions would show up in subsequent years. It wasn't really a big secret. Everyone knew it was going on. How do you think one prep center got 30% of those admitted in one year? Do you think it was talent? LOLOL
Everyone knows this was going on. It's why the county had to change the selection criteria. I'm not sure why these posters want to keep it secret even now since the cats out of the bag.
The cheating was so out of control that they had to scrap the whole selection process and come up with what we have now.
Amazing that they had evidence of out of control cheating, but didn't use that in the lawsuit to justify their admissions changes. Seems like it would be a slam dunk win to show that the changes needed to happen due to rampant cheating.
+1 Cheating would have been a good defense to raise if it really happened.
No, FCPS neither wanted to, nor could prove it. It would be attacking students, when they found a better solution by changing the admissions process.
If they couldn't prove it, that means there's no actual evidence. Thanks for admitting that the "cheating scandal" is just hearsay and a conspiracy theory.
Exactly. People went from some kids saying they saw the questions, to Curie was buying the test, or was debriefing the students about what questions were on it to make a question bank for next year.
Maybe it's true, or maybe they got their hand on some sample questions. but it's just guessing.
It is FALSE that Curie bought the test or that their students had access to all of the exam questions prior to sitting for the exam.
It is TRUE that Curie students reported that, when they sat for the Quant-Q, they realized they’d seen SOME of the exact questions before and had been shown how to solve essentially all of them, step by step, at Curie.
How do you know these are FALSE or TRUE? Did the Curie students report they saw SOME or ALL?
I'd heard that the this was true. Not sure about the first statement though I have no idea where they got answers.
That was my point. It is known some students said they saw the answers at Curie. I think it was all the answers that they said, but people including me surmised that they were probably shown material similar to some of the questions. It is possible Curie has an in with the testing company and had all the answers beforehand. It is possible they were asking students about the questions and built up a test bank over the years, and the testing company was reusing questions. This guesswork as to what Curie did has evolved over two years into 'FACT' that Curie was debriefing students after the test, in violation of the agreement the students signed. More recently it became a FACT that Curie was telling kids to check the free meals box on the application. I don't think there is anyone who said they heard this at Curie. They then went on and said it was a FACT that Curie was advising them to fill out forms at their school when TJ started asking for verification of the free meals.
This is the part that is incontrovertibly true - although we don't know whether Curie ASKED for the materials or if they were simply provided. The rest of it I don't buy.
Makes them smart!
Makes them unethical. Probably not illegal or criminal, and therefore not worthy of an investigation, but certainly unethical given the amount of money they swindle out of the Indian community every year.
Capitalists engage in legal but unethical acts everyday - 24 hours a day! They sometimes say it is their fiduciary 'duty' to maximize profit and deliver the best possible service/product within the confines of the law. What the big deal?
The big deal is that they created imbalances in an admissions process that is supposed to be fair to all by delivering materials from a secured exam to constituents from a single ethnic group, and in so doing eliminated others from consideration in exchange for many thousands of dollars.
Financial resources are not supposed to be a de facto separator in the TJ admissions process, but under the old process (which yielded less than 1% FARMS over 30 years) it undeniably was.
So are we back to advocating for quotas? A lottery? Or just giving poor and URM bonus points? I've lost track of what the goal is? Level playing field, equal opportunity, equal outcome, or something else?
Explaining how the system got so screwed up isn't the same as asking for quotas. Do you do this simply to distract from a meaningful discussion of where things went wrong?
Not everyone believes a competitive process involving a standardized test is something going wrong. Some believe that what went wrong is nothing more than Asians being overwhelmingly successful and dominating admissions to the dislike of the school board and FCPS parents that decided to discriminate against Asians to socially engineer admissions.
The cheating issue was one issue. Another is declining numbers of applicants which shows there's a problem somewhere. It's a real issue that you can't just decide didn't happen.
But there is a plausible simple explanation - if you know you have no chance of getting in you choose not to apply. If you are mediocre at violin or something, you don't opt to try out for an elite string group. The same thing may have happened at TJ. We do not know. On this board, I have heard many times that white students stopped applying because they did not like the "toxic" culture of TJ produced by an 80% Asian student body. Still not sure what the definition of "toxic" is in that statement.
NP, but I'll take a stab since you seem to be struggling with basics... perhaps an unhealthy degree of competition amongst students within the school that undermined the academic environment... not to say that students couldn't still achieve and learn, but did so in a manner that was unnecessarily poisonous to mental health for too large of a proportion of the student body.
Anything at the top level is hyper-competitive, Olympic level competitions, NFL, NBA, World Cup. Nature of the game. if you can't stand the heat, Get out the kitchen.
Recent data indicates that success in youth sports has more to do with money spent than actual talent, which indicates that it's just like academics.
Then, why do posters only attack academics? Academics is more important than sports. Hypocrites.
Not sure there's anything to attack here. It's more of a statement of fact and as to importance that's subjective.
I guess it might have something to do with that academic opportunities should be open to all residents not just those who spend the most money. With sports, personally, I personally believe that is of any value, but yes if public money is supporting that nonsense by all means the playing field should be leveled. Nevertheless, the best outcome in my opinion would be that public dollars were spent on education not sports that cater mainly to a small group of enthusiats.
Sport teams are funded by taxpayers' money so they should reflect the demographics of the county. Fairfax county has almost 20% Asian students so all sport teams must include 20% players!
A better solution might be to stop funding the sports teams and use the surplus to give everyone free enrichment.
No EQUITY demands that Asians make up 20% of ALL sport teams in all public schools in fcps! All students benefit by being exposed to different races, groups and perspectives!
Yes. Why should one or two groups hoard all the resources and funding for public school sport programs when most of Hispanic and Asian students are kept out. Stop discriminating.
Anonymous wrote:All I know is that the URM lady who works as an admin assistant at my wife's company with an IQ of like 90 now has a daughter at TJ so we know the new system is doing too well lol
There are some many things wrong with this post I can't even...
It helps them feel less bitter by talking made-up trash who cares. I know it's frustrating for a lot of parents since the new system is harder to game, and they need to vent somewhere.
Actually, the new system is easier to game.
Well, you used to be able to buy the test answers so it was easier for people with money.
Where did you buy your answers?
The prep centers were conducting exit interviews on students who had taken the test. This allowed them to compile question banks. Many of these questions would show up in subsequent years. It wasn't really a big secret. Everyone knew it was going on. How do you think one prep center got 30% of those admitted in one year? Do you think it was talent? LOLOL
Everyone knows this was going on. It's why the county had to change the selection criteria. I'm not sure why these posters want to keep it secret even now since the cats out of the bag.
The cheating was so out of control that they had to scrap the whole selection process and come up with what we have now.
Amazing that they had evidence of out of control cheating, but didn't use that in the lawsuit to justify their admissions changes. Seems like it would be a slam dunk win to show that the changes needed to happen due to rampant cheating.
+1 Cheating would have been a good defense to raise if it really happened.
No, FCPS neither wanted to, nor could prove it. It would be attacking students, when they found a better solution by changing the admissions process.
If they couldn't prove it, that means there's no actual evidence. Thanks for admitting that the "cheating scandal" is just hearsay and a conspiracy theory.
Exactly. People went from some kids saying they saw the questions, to Curie was buying the test, or was debriefing the students about what questions were on it to make a question bank for next year.
Maybe it's true, or maybe they got their hand on some sample questions. but it's just guessing.
It is FALSE that Curie bought the test or that their students had access to all of the exam questions prior to sitting for the exam.
It is TRUE that Curie students reported that, when they sat for the Quant-Q, they realized they’d seen SOME of the exact questions before and had been shown how to solve essentially all of them, step by step, at Curie.
How do you know these are FALSE or TRUE? Did the Curie students report they saw SOME or ALL?
I'd heard that the this was true. Not sure about the first statement though I have no idea where they got answers.
That was my point. It is known some students said they saw the answers at Curie. I think it was all the answers that they said, but people including me surmised that they were probably shown material similar to some of the questions. It is possible Curie has an in with the testing company and had all the answers beforehand. It is possible they were asking students about the questions and built up a test bank over the years, and the testing company was reusing questions. This guesswork as to what Curie did has evolved over two years into 'FACT' that Curie was debriefing students after the test, in violation of the agreement the students signed. More recently it became a FACT that Curie was telling kids to check the free meals box on the application. I don't think there is anyone who said they heard this at Curie. They then went on and said it was a FACT that Curie was advising them to fill out forms at their school when TJ started asking for verification of the free meals.
This is the part that is incontrovertibly true - although we don't know whether Curie ASKED for the materials or if they were simply provided. The rest of it I don't buy.
Makes them smart!
Makes them unethical. Probably not illegal or criminal, and therefore not worthy of an investigation, but certainly unethical given the amount of money they swindle out of the Indian community every year.
Capitalists engage in legal but unethical acts everyday - 24 hours a day! They sometimes say it is their fiduciary 'duty' to maximize profit and deliver the best possible service/product within the confines of the law. What the big deal?
The big deal is that they created imbalances in an admissions process that is supposed to be fair to all by delivering materials from a secured exam to constituents from a single ethnic group, and in so doing eliminated others from consideration in exchange for many thousands of dollars.
Financial resources are not supposed to be a de facto separator in the TJ admissions process, but under the old process (which yielded less than 1% FARMS over 30 years) it undeniably was.
So are we back to advocating for quotas? A lottery? Or just giving poor and URM bonus points? I've lost track of what the goal is? Level playing field, equal opportunity, equal outcome, or something else?
Explaining how the system got so screwed up isn't the same as asking for quotas. Do you do this simply to distract from a meaningful discussion of where things went wrong?
Not everyone believes a competitive process involving a standardized test is something going wrong. Some believe that what went wrong is nothing more than Asians being overwhelmingly successful and dominating admissions to the dislike of the school board and FCPS parents that decided to discriminate against Asians to socially engineer admissions.
The cheating issue was one issue. Another is declining numbers of applicants which shows there's a problem somewhere. It's a real issue that you can't just decide didn't happen.
But there is a plausible simple explanation - if you know you have no chance of getting in you choose not to apply. If you are mediocre at violin or something, you don't opt to try out for an elite string group. The same thing may have happened at TJ. We do not know. On this board, I have heard many times that white students stopped applying because they did not like the "toxic" culture of TJ produced by an 80% Asian student body. Still not sure what the definition of "toxic" is in that statement.
NP, but I'll take a stab since you seem to be struggling with basics... perhaps an unhealthy degree of competition amongst students within the school that undermined the academic environment... not to say that students couldn't still achieve and learn, but did so in a manner that was unnecessarily poisonous to mental health for too large of a proportion of the student body.
Anything at the top level is hyper-competitive, Olympic level competitions, NFL, NBA, World Cup. Nature of the game. if you can't stand the heat, Get out the kitchen.
Recent data indicates that success in youth sports has more to do with money spent than actual talent, which indicates that it's just like academics.
Then, why do posters only attack academics? Academics is more important than sports. Hypocrites.
Not sure there's anything to attack here. It's more of a statement of fact and as to importance that's subjective.
I guess it might have something to do with that academic opportunities should be open to all residents not just those who spend the most money. With sports, personally, I personally believe that is of any value, but yes if public money is supporting that nonsense by all means the playing field should be leveled. Nevertheless, the best outcome in my opinion would be that public dollars were spent on education not sports that cater mainly to a small group of enthusiats.
Sport teams are funded by taxpayers' money so they should reflect the demographics of the county. Fairfax county has almost 20% Asian students so all sport teams must include 20% players!
A better solution might be to stop funding the sports teams and use the surplus to give everyone free enrichment.
No EQUITY demands that Asians make up 20% of ALL sport teams in all public schools in fcps! All students benefit by being exposed to different races, groups and perspectives!
Yes. Why should one or two groups hoard all the resources and funding for public school sport programs when most of Hispanic and Asian students are kept out. Stop discriminating.
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