Woodward HS boundary study - BCC, Blair, Einstein, WJ, Kennedy, Northwood, Wheaton, Whitman impacts

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If the parents don't like the boundaries, make sure you vote out any BOE incumbent next year! Can't fire McKnight until that happens!

The boundaries won't even be decided until spring 2025.

If the boundaries are decided in 2025, who are the oldest kids who will be moved? I'm the parent of a current 8th grader, class of 2028, who is currently zoned for Einstein. Is it possible that they'll be moved mid high school? Her first choice is CAP. If she's admitted and starts, could she be made to leave if our house is moved out of the DCC? What if she's in a non-selective program?

When Woodward opens in Fall 2026, your kid will be a junior, so it is very unlikely she will be moved.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What were the boundaries like for Woodward before the school was closed?

Unfortunately, MCPS will redraw the boundaries for some agenda rather than what is best for the community and the kids. I’m sure some busing will be involved.

Some busing will certainly be involved, because there aren't 2,700 high school students at addresses currently assigned to Walter Johnson, Whitman, B-CC, Einstein, Northwood, Kennedy, Blair, or Wheaton, who live within a two-mile walk of the school.

Also, it would be great if some of this busing would be via RideOn and/or Metrobus, but I don't know whether that will happen.

Woodward's building capacity was also reduced from 2,700 to 2,159.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What were the boundaries like for Woodward before the school was closed?

Unfortunately, MCPS will redraw the boundaries for some agenda rather than what is best for the community and the kids. I’m sure some busing will be involved.

Some busing will certainly be involved, because there aren't 2,700 high school students at addresses currently assigned to Walter Johnson, Whitman, B-CC, Einstein, Northwood, Kennedy, Blair, or Wheaton, who live within a two-mile walk of the school.

Also, it would be great if some of this busing would be via RideOn and/or Metrobus, but I don't know whether that will happen.

Woodward's building capacity was also reduced from 2,700 to 2,159.

That should be sufficient to reduce overcrowding at the adjacent schools like WJ, Einstein, Wheaton and BCC.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What were the boundaries like for Woodward before the school was closed?

Unfortunately, MCPS will redraw the boundaries for some agenda rather than what is best for the community and the kids. I’m sure some busing will be involved.

Some busing will certainly be involved, because there aren't 2,700 high school students at addresses currently assigned to Walter Johnson, Whitman, B-CC, Einstein, Northwood, Kennedy, Blair, or Wheaton, who live within a two-mile walk of the school.

Also, it would be great if some of this busing would be via RideOn and/or Metrobus, but I don't know whether that will happen.

Woodward's building capacity was also reduced from 2,700 to 2,159.

That should be sufficient to reduce overcrowding at the adjacent schools like WJ, Einstein, Wheaton and BCC.

Not when they are building a lot more housing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Whitman is unlikely to be impacted significantly due to its location. What will most likely happen there is some students may be shifted to BCC, and maybe---hard maybe, some students living closer to the mall could be redistricted to Woodward. I don't see anything else being possible, nor do I see the likelihood of any students being moved into Whitman from other schools

The Whitman students who live closer to the mall are in walking distance of WJ. They would have to be bussed past WJ on their way to Woodward.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Whitman is unlikely to be impacted significantly due to its location. What will most likely happen there is some students may be shifted to BCC, and maybe---hard maybe, some students living closer to the mall could be redistricted to Woodward. I don't see anything else being possible, nor do I see the likelihood of any students being moved into Whitman from other schools

The Whitman students who live closer to the mall are in walking distance of WJ. They would have to be bussed past WJ on their way to Woodward.

Then they should be reassigned to WJ.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Boundaries are decided based on neighborhoods, not individuals. This isn’t selective admissions. The SC case isn’t going to be a driver in this boundary decision.

Correct. In case folks are curious, there is plenty of case law around this, most of which boils down to the fact that the State government can not substitute its judgement for that of a local governing body in matter of local policy unless that policy is capricious or illegal.

Plenty of folks have tested this theory, including recently in MCPS, and the outcome has been the same.

Now, when school districts have attempted to assign *individual* students on the basis of race (Parents Involved v. Seattle Schools), SCOTUS has struck that down, but in the same ruling they affirmed the right of school districts to utlize their own discretion to avoid racial isolation.

From the majority ruling:

A compelling interest exists in avoiding racial isolation, an interest that a school district, in its discretion and expertise, may choose to pursue. Likewise, a district may consider it a compelling interest to achieve a diverse student population. Race may be one component of that diversity, but other demographic factors, plus special talents and needs, should also be considered. What the government is not permitted to do, absent a showing of necessity not made here, is to classify every student on the basis of race and to assign each of them to schools based on that classification.

Now, someone might choose to file a lawsuit, but under both Maryland statute and settled case law, they are very very unlikely to succeed and under both MCPS is within its rights to conduct and act on a boundary analysis as long as individual students are not assigned base on race (no racial quotas for admission) and as long as other factors such as FARMS status and proximity are also considered.

Not sure what your point is. A lot of lawsuits also created caselaw around Roe v Wade, and it was overturned.

Maybe its possible to challenge the local school district on the basis that it took race into consideration when drawing boundaries? At the pre-college level, boundaries are the same as "school admissions" - no difference at all. There's ton's of materials published on MCPS website that show statistics about the quantity of children's ethnicity and race at a particular school, as well as (as you point out) use it as the basis for making boundary decisions.

The Court's opinion employs broad language against racial preferences, reasoning that “[e]liminating racial discrimination means eliminating all of it.”

The way I read that is race cannot be a factor of decision-making, subject to very narrow exceptions?

What?! Those are not at all the same.

Are you saying that the MCPS CO and the BOE has never publicly stated / documented that it makes boundary decisions, in part, based upon race and ethnicity (ex. when it considers the demographics and ethnic / racial diversity of the school)? And that School Assignment / Boundary decision is not enforced by the School Locator by a resident's address? In order to change this school assignment, it's by individual student through a COSA.

How is that not discriminating based upon race?

“[e]liminating racial discrimination means eliminating all of it.”

They aren't selecting individual students based on race. They aren't saying, you are White so you can't go to this school. They are trying to balance demographics through their boundary decisions but don't control which specific students live in those areas and attend those schools.

Why is it necessary to "balance demographics" if all racial discrimination is eliminated? Aren't you proving the point?

I could be wrong, but I don't recall the Supreme Court making a distinction that their decision was solely limited to "selecting individual students based on race"? Can you provide the exact legal citation, page and paragraph please? Honestly, I feel you're making things up to suit your opinion?

For example, the next time MCPS and the BOE redraws school boundaries, what was the legally sustainable compelling interest and when will it end? Was it provide a benefit to some but not to others? Did it necessarily provide advantages to a new group at the expense of the former group? I might ask, when a family purchased a home in a school assignment whose boundaries changed, were they provided the option to remain in their old school assignment?

Racial and/or ethnic groups are only one component of "demographics." They are more interested in looking at FARMS rates in the latest boundary studies.

My take.

If someone says 'historical' this or that, it's history. It's rear-view mirror. The question is whether a child, starting fresh, has the same educational opportunities as the child in the seat next to them; or whether something or someone will hold them back.

What bothers me is when children aren't equal or treated equally. That's an issue. Treat everyone equally and they're equal. Provide resources equally so all students are able to access them. Ensure supports are available for all students that need them. Select the best students so that children learn there is no favoritism. Draw boundaries by whether the bus route is shorter, or kids can walk to school safely without getting hit by a car. If a school doesn't have enough this-or-that, provide this-or-that.

But that also means no personal preferences, no set-asides, no pets, no favors. All children are equal and "Education is Blind" the way Justice should be. And when inequality is introduced, call it out. Don't stand by and let it happen.

Although “Education is Blind" the way Justice should be is the right way in theory, it will never be equal. You can say no personal preferences, no set-asides, no pets, no favors but you can’t control when parents are able to hire private tutors or pay for SAT prep courses, or pay for college consultants, etc. The rich will always be able to hire high powered attorneys to get their clients off when the poor are forced to use a public defender. It will never be truly equal.

Sometimes what makes a student thrive is parental support. It doesn’t matter how you draw the boundaries. Why are Asians alway thriving no matter what school they are in? W school or not. Their parents focus on their education and how important it is. Title One schools are spending more per student than W schools and the students still don’t thrive. Test scores are poor. Why is that? Something is wrong. Redrawing to fit some agenda will never solve that problem.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What were the boundaries like for Woodward before the school was closed?

Unfortunately, MCPS will redraw the boundaries for some agenda rather than what is best for the community and the kids. I’m sure some busing will be involved.

Some busing will certainly be involved, because there aren't 2,700 high school students at addresses currently assigned to Walter Johnson, Whitman, B-CC, Einstein, Northwood, Kennedy, Blair, or Wheaton, who live within a two-mile walk of the school.

Also, it would be great if some of this busing would be via RideOn and/or Metrobus, but I don't know whether that will happen.

Woodward's building capacity was also reduced from 2,700 to 2,159.

That's more of a problem for the county council to address. Perhaps, if they took less money from developers, we'd be more serious about planning.

That should be sufficient to reduce overcrowding at the adjacent schools like WJ, Einstein, Wheaton and BCC.

Not when they are building a lot more housing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Boundaries are decided based on neighborhoods, not individuals. This isn’t selective admissions. The SC case isn’t going to be a driver in this boundary decision.

Correct. In case folks are curious, there is plenty of case law around this, most of which boils down to the fact that the State government can not substitute its judgement for that of a local governing body in matter of local policy unless that policy is capricious or illegal.

Plenty of folks have tested this theory, including recently in MCPS, and the outcome has been the same.

Now, when school districts have attempted to assign *individual* students on the basis of race (Parents Involved v. Seattle Schools), SCOTUS has struck that down, but in the same ruling they affirmed the right of school districts to utlize their own discretion to avoid racial isolation.

From the majority ruling:

A compelling interest exists in avoiding racial isolation, an interest that a school district, in its discretion and expertise, may choose to pursue. Likewise, a district may consider it a compelling interest to achieve a diverse student population. Race may be one component of that diversity, but other demographic factors, plus special talents and needs, should also be considered. What the government is not permitted to do, absent a showing of necessity not made here, is to classify every student on the basis of race and to assign each of them to schools based on that classification.

Now, someone might choose to file a lawsuit, but under both Maryland statute and settled case law, they are very very unlikely to succeed and under both MCPS is within its rights to conduct and act on a boundary analysis as long as individual students are not assigned base on race (no racial quotas for admission) and as long as other factors such as FARMS status and proximity are also considered.

Not sure what your point is. A lot of lawsuits also created caselaw around Roe v Wade, and it was overturned.

Maybe its possible to challenge the local school district on the basis that it took race into consideration when drawing boundaries? At the pre-college level, boundaries are the same as "school admissions" - no difference at all. There's ton's of materials published on MCPS website that show statistics about the quantity of children's ethnicity and race at a particular school, as well as (as you point out) use it as the basis for making boundary decisions.

The Court's opinion employs broad language against racial preferences, reasoning that “[e]liminating racial discrimination means eliminating all of it.”

The way I read that is race cannot be a factor of decision-making, subject to very narrow exceptions?

What?! Those are not at all the same.

Are you saying that the MCPS CO and the BOE has never publicly stated / documented that it makes boundary decisions, in part, based upon race and ethnicity (ex. when it considers the demographics and ethnic / racial diversity of the school)? And that School Assignment / Boundary decision is not enforced by the School Locator by a resident's address? In order to change this school assignment, it's by individual student through a COSA.

How is that not discriminating based upon race?

“[e]liminating racial discrimination means eliminating all of it.”

They aren't selecting individual students based on race. They aren't saying, you are White so you can't go to this school. They are trying to balance demographics through their boundary decisions but don't control which specific students live in those areas and attend those schools.

Why is it necessary to "balance demographics" if all racial discrimination is eliminated? Aren't you proving the point?

I could be wrong, but I don't recall the Supreme Court making a distinction that their decision was solely limited to "selecting individual students based on race"? Can you provide the exact legal citation, page and paragraph please? Honestly, I feel you're making things up to suit your opinion?

For example, the next time MCPS and the BOE redraws school boundaries, what was the legally sustainable compelling interest and when will it end? Was it provide a benefit to some but not to others? Did it necessarily provide advantages to a new group at the expense of the former group? I might ask, when a family purchased a home in a school assignment whose boundaries changed, were they provided the option to remain in their old school assignment?

Racial and/or ethnic groups are only one component of "demographics." They are more interested in looking at FARMS rates in the latest boundary studies.

My take.

If someone says 'historical' this or that, it's history. It's rear-view mirror. The question is whether a child, starting fresh, has the same educational opportunities as the child in the seat next to them; or whether something or someone will hold them back.

What bothers me is when children aren't equal or treated equally. That's an issue. Treat everyone equally and they're equal. Provide resources equally so all students are able to access them. Ensure supports are available for all students that need them. Select the best students so that children learn there is no favoritism. Draw boundaries by whether the bus route is shorter, or kids can walk to school safely without getting hit by a car. If a school doesn't have enough this-or-that, provide this-or-that.

But that also means no personal preferences, no set-asides, no pets, no favors. All children are equal and "Education is Blind" the way Justice should be. And when inequality is introduced, call it out. Don't stand by and let it happen.

Although “Education is Blind" the way Justice should be is the right way in theory, it will never be equal. You can say no personal preferences, no set-asides, no pets, no favors but you can’t control when parents are able to hire private tutors or pay for SAT prep courses, or pay for college consultants, etc. The rich will always be able to hire high powered attorneys to get their clients off when the poor are forced to use a public defender. It will never be truly equal.

Sometimes what makes a student thrive is parental support. It doesn’t matter how you draw the boundaries. Why are Asians alway thriving no matter what school they are in? W school or not. Their parents focus on their education and how important it is. Title One schools are spending more per student than W schools and the students still don’t thrive. Test scores are poor. Why is that? Something is wrong. Redrawing to fit some agenda will never solve that problem.

Much of what you're saying is true. My kids don't go to W's but are well about the 99% on their maps. It's because we prioritize education and make sure they get what they need even when the school only focuses on children who are below grade level in early ES. No amount of money is going to fix this. If people would understand, we can only provide opportunities for everyone but not insist on outcomes. Not everyone aspires to the thing. People have their own goals. Some want to go to college while others want to be plumbers and that's actually great. The school system needs to provide opportunities so that every kid can be met where they are and become the best version of themselves. Not live in some progressive fantasy where everyone has the same dreams.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Whitman is unlikely to be impacted significantly due to its location. What will most likely happen there is some students may be shifted to BCC, and maybe---hard maybe, some students living closer to the mall could be redistricted to Woodward. I don't see anything else being possible, nor do I see the likelihood of any students being moved into Whitman from other schools

The Whitman students who live closer to the mall are in walking distance of WJ. They would have to be bussed past WJ on their way to Woodward.

South of Democracy? Like, Wildwood Hills/Bells Mill Road? They are assigned to Churchill. Churchill isn't part of the boundary study.

There's that little area west of the WMAL towers property, next to the Beltway and the 270 spur, which is assigned to Whitman (bus zone) and could reasonably be reassigned to WJ (walk zone). The WMAL towers property is assigned to WJ.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Boundaries are decided based on neighborhoods, not individuals. This isn’t selective admissions. The SC case isn’t going to be a driver in this boundary decision.

Correct. In case folks are curious, there is plenty of case law around this, most of which boils down to the fact that the State government can not substitute its judgement for that of a local governing body in matter of local policy unless that policy is capricious or illegal.

Plenty of folks have tested this theory, including recently in MCPS, and the outcome has been the same.

Now, when school districts have attempted to assign *individual* students on the basis of race (Parents Involved v. Seattle Schools), SCOTUS has struck that down, but in the same ruling they affirmed the right of school districts to utlize their own discretion to avoid racial isolation.

From the majority ruling:

A compelling interest exists in avoiding racial isolation, an interest that a school district, in its discretion and expertise, may choose to pursue. Likewise, a district may consider it a compelling interest to achieve a diverse student population. Race may be one component of that diversity, but other demographic factors, plus special talents and needs, should also be considered. What the government is not permitted to do, absent a showing of necessity not made here, is to classify every student on the basis of race and to assign each of them to schools based on that classification.

Now, someone might choose to file a lawsuit, but under both Maryland statute and settled case law, they are very very unlikely to succeed and under both MCPS is within its rights to conduct and act on a boundary analysis as long as individual students are not assigned base on race (no racial quotas for admission) and as long as other factors such as FARMS status and proximity are also considered.

Not sure what your point is. A lot of lawsuits also created caselaw around Roe v Wade, and it was overturned.

Maybe its possible to challenge the local school district on the basis that it took race into consideration when drawing boundaries? At the pre-college level, boundaries are the same as "school admissions" - no difference at all. There's ton's of materials published on MCPS website that show statistics about the quantity of children's ethnicity and race at a particular school, as well as (as you point out) use it as the basis for making boundary decisions.

The Court's opinion employs broad language against racial preferences, reasoning that “[e]liminating racial discrimination means eliminating all of it.”

The way I read that is race cannot be a factor of decision-making, subject to very narrow exceptions?

What?! Those are not at all the same.

Are you saying that the MCPS CO and the BOE has never publicly stated / documented that it makes boundary decisions, in part, based upon race and ethnicity (ex. when it considers the demographics and ethnic / racial diversity of the school)? And that School Assignment / Boundary decision is not enforced by the School Locator by a resident's address? In order to change this school assignment, it's by individual student through a COSA.

How is that not discriminating based upon race?

“[e]liminating racial discrimination means eliminating all of it.”

They aren't selecting individual students based on race. They aren't saying, you are White so you can't go to this school. They are trying to balance demographics through their boundary decisions but don't control which specific students live in those areas and attend those schools.

Why is it necessary to "balance demographics" if all racial discrimination is eliminated? Aren't you proving the point?

I could be wrong, but I don't recall the Supreme Court making a distinction that their decision was solely limited to "selecting individual students based on race"? Can you provide the exact legal citation, page and paragraph please? Honestly, I feel you're making things up to suit your opinion?

For example, the next time MCPS and the BOE redraws school boundaries, what was the legally sustainable compelling interest and when will it end? Was it provide a benefit to some but not to others? Did it necessarily provide advantages to a new group at the expense of the former group? I might ask, when a family purchased a home in a school assignment whose boundaries changed, were they provided the option to remain in their old school assignment?

Racial and/or ethnic groups are only one component of "demographics." They are more interested in looking at FARMS rates in the latest boundary studies.

My take.

If someone says 'historical' this or that, it's history. It's rear-view mirror. The question is whether a child, starting fresh, has the same educational opportunities as the child in the seat next to them; or whether something or someone will hold them back.

What bothers me is when children aren't equal or treated equally. That's an issue. Treat everyone equally and they're equal. Provide resources equally so all students are able to access them. Ensure supports are available for all students that need them. Select the best students so that children learn there is no favoritism. Draw boundaries by whether the bus route is shorter, or kids can walk to school safely without getting hit by a car. If a school doesn't have enough this-or-that, provide this-or-that.

But that also means no personal preferences, no set-asides, no pets, no favors. All children are equal and "Education is Blind" the way Justice should be. And when inequality is introduced, call it out. Don't stand by and let it happen.

Although “Education is Blind" the way Justice should be is the right way in theory, it will never be equal. You can say no personal preferences, no set-asides, no pets, no favors but you can’t control when parents are able to hire private tutors or pay for SAT prep courses, or pay for college consultants, etc. The rich will always be able to hire high powered attorneys to get their clients off when the poor are forced to use a public defender. It will never be truly equal.

Sometimes what makes a student thrive is parental support. It doesn’t matter how you draw the boundaries. Why are Asians alway thriving no matter what school they are in? W school or not. Their parents focus on their education and how important it is. Title One schools are spending more per student than W schools and the students still don’t thrive. Test scores are poor. Why is that? Something is wrong. Redrawing to fit some agenda will never solve that problem.

Much of what you're saying is true. My kids don't go to W's but are well about the 99% on their maps. It's because we prioritize education and make sure they get what they need even when the school only focuses on children who are below grade level in early ES. No amount of money is going to fix this. If people would understand, we can only provide opportunities for everyone but not insist on outcomes. Not everyone aspires to the thing. People have their own goals. Some want to go to college while others want to be plumbers and that's actually great. The school system needs to provide opportunities so that every kid can be met where they are and become the best version of themselves. Not live in some progressive fantasy where everyone has the same dreams.

What if your kids were in the plumbers group?

[Anonymous]

It’s hard to understand what they can do with BCC and Whitman clusters because their needs are not well aligned.

Whitman has HS capacity but Pyle is over capacity. By contrast, BCC is nearing capacity while Westland is below capacity.

I would guess they could send some kids to Westland and then they would reunite at Whitman. But that’s an odd approach. And all of the Whitman ESs near Westland are so huge, I don’t see how they could send one to Westland.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It’s hard to understand what they can do with BCC and Whitman clusters because their needs are not well aligned.

Whitman has HS capacity but Pyle is over capacity. By contrast, BCC is nearing capacity while Westland is below capacity.

I would guess they could send some kids to Westland and then they would reunite at Whitman. But that’s an odd approach. And all of the Whitman ESs near Westland are so huge, I don’t see how they could send one to Westland.

With split articulation?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It’s hard to understand what they can do with BCC and Whitman clusters because their needs are not well aligned.

Whitman has HS capacity but Pyle is over capacity. By contrast, BCC is nearing capacity while Westland is below capacity.

I would guess they could send some kids to Westland and then they would reunite at Whitman. But that’s an odd approach. And all of the Whitman ESs near Westland are so huge, I don’t see how they could send one to Westland.

Pyle is not over capacity any more. It has 200+ empty seats.

https://gis.mcpsmd.org/cipmasterpdfs/MP24_Chapter4Whitman.pdf

[Anonymous]

I think the biggest impact will be felt in the DCC w/ Einstein. They will probably lose an elementary school so that the Kensington Parkwood Elementary kids can be re-districted to Einstein.

From what I have been told from those in the know is that doing this helps improve a number of state measured metrics and that every potential model starts with this move.