Airplane noise concerns overblown?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Four points worth remembering:
1. There are 850 planes per day from DCA alone (and that’s NOT the only traffic over the Palisades)
2. Let’s say that the landings are now quieter (I’ll believe it when I see it), 400 planes will still be guaranteed over these houses from DCA alone each and every day (and that’s NOT the only air traffic)
3. Take offs are noisier, so that the Palisades are celebrating this small relief tells you everything you need to know about what hell it is to live under that kind of flight path
4. This isn’t long lived since DCA is expanding. This does not affect any other air traffic — Dulles etc which still fly over the Palisades. In the long run investing under the flight path sounds like a terrible idea

At what altitude are the IAD-bound and IAD-departing planes over the Palisades?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:A somewhat superficial summary

https://www.axios.com/local/washington-dc/2024/08/12/reagan-national-airport-dca-airplane-noise

I read that the procedure used in stormy weather is out of service for 3 months only. After that pilots will simply be discouraged from flying overland. Can somebody confirm? I am sure the procedure will be used less.

Will the regular approach procedure used during normal weather be closer to the Palisades now?

[Anonymous]

https://www.fox5dc.com/news/new-faa-guidance-attempts-decrease-noise-residents-living-near-reagan-airport

Ken Buckley who was interviewed here is a great guy. We appreciate his work on this issue a lot. He is known for being a straight shooter, but this interview is just smoke and mirrors. I don't know what happened. As it he was reading somebody else's script.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A somewhat superficial summary

https://www.axios.com/local/washington-dc/2024/08/12/reagan-national-airport-dca-airplane-noise

I read that the procedure used in stormy weather is out of service for 3 months only. After that pilots will simply be discouraged from flying overland. Can somebody confirm? I am sure the procedure will be used less.

Will the regular approach procedure used during normal weather be closer to the Palisades now?

I am surprised nobody has yet responded to the above questions. The answers can be found in these minutes from the DCA Community Noise Working Group:

1. Bad weather procedures (LDA-Y & LDA-Z)
Matt Fisher/FAA, page 2: "We hope to de-commission the LDA-Y approach that overflies the MD and DC side of
the Potomac River. The LDA-Z will be out of service for 2-3 months this summer for a
rehab project, but retained for the foreseeable future."
https://www.flyreagan.com/sites/flyreagan.com/files/2024-06/Final%20Summary%20April%2025%202024%20DCA%20WG%20meeting%2056..pdf

2. Approach procedure during normal weather conditions
pages 2 & 3: "Question: What were the criteria in terms of moving closer to the Palisades and the
reservoir?
Fisher: Primarily segment length and distance between the waypoints"
https://www.flyreagan.com/sites/flyreagan.com/files/2023-01/Final%20summary%2010-27-22%20DCA%20WG%20meeting%2050.pdf
slides: https://www.flyreagan.com/sites/flyreagan.com/files/2022-10/2022_10_27%20-%20RWY%2019%20RNAV%20Approach%20Final%20Design%20Presentation.pdf

Perhaps one of the experts could comment. It would be helpful to get a full picture of all the changes pertaining to arrivals.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What about people who have lived in Potomac for 20 plus years and the amount of planes flying over head has increased exponentially. It was not an issue at the time. It begins around 5:30am and continues late into the evening. Sometimes during the day 3-4
Planes fly every 10 minutes.

My understanding is that the situation in Potomac is a lot better than further south in moco. Every 10 minutes? It's like every 2 mins (or worse) at some points during the day in Brookmont.

You do realize that the Potomac residents are running this show, right?

Yes, I am aware of this fact. Sad that they still complain, but increasing wealth tends to go hand in hand with being an obstreperous ass.

Brookmont civic association supported all the initiatives put forward by the MoCo reps on the DCA Community Noise Working Group including those that put airplanes departing DCA closer to your community like those that were implemented in 2021. I am sure you were told you must share the noise and not expect much because you should have known when you bought your house it was close to the airport and the river.

We knew. We are OK with it and enjoy being able to walk to the C&O whenever we want. We just find the Potomac poster's complaints to be completely in-character

Were you really fine with not having any opportunities to ask questions, provide feedback or comment on the proposals that were affecting your community? Wow.

It all happened before we bought our home. I am the OP and am happy to see this thread still open, continuing to attract ire and rebukes from both the "what noise?" and "ultrafine ppm will kill you" crowds. I'm happy to report that life in Glen Echo is wonderful.

I doubt that very much. Are you getting ready to sell or something?

Ultrafines by the way are very likely to kill you but are more dangerous to the children living there who don’t get a say. It’s like saying living above a gas station is wonderful. Maybe but science disagrees

I would enjoy seeing said science (I am a faculty member at a local university that you definitely know, and I do "science" for a living buddy).

[Anonymous]

A related technical question to the nice post above about procedures. Does anyone know what determines whether planes are arriving or departing on a given day? Do they just toss a coin?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What about people who have lived in Potomac for 20 plus years and the amount of planes flying over head has increased exponentially. It was not an issue at the time. It begins around 5:30am and continues late into the evening. Sometimes during the day 3-4
Planes fly every 10 minutes.

My understanding is that the situation in Potomac is a lot better than further south in moco. Every 10 minutes? It's like every 2 mins (or worse) at some points during the day in Brookmont.

You do realize that the Potomac residents are running this show, right?

Yes, I am aware of this fact. Sad that they still complain, but increasing wealth tends to go hand in hand with being an obstreperous ass.

Brookmont civic association supported all the initiatives put forward by the MoCo reps on the DCA Community Noise Working Group including those that put airplanes departing DCA closer to your community like those that were implemented in 2021. I am sure you were told you must share the noise and not expect much because you should have known when you bought your house it was close to the airport and the river.

We knew. We are OK with it and enjoy being able to walk to the C&O whenever we want. We just find the Potomac poster's complaints to be completely in-character

Were you really fine with not having any opportunities to ask questions, provide feedback or comment on the proposals that were affecting your community? Wow.

It all happened before we bought our home. I am the OP and am happy to see this thread still open, continuing to attract ire and rebukes from both the "what noise?" and "ultrafine ppm will kill you" crowds. I'm happy to report that life in Glen Echo is wonderful.

I doubt that very much. Are you getting ready to sell or something?

Ultrafines by the way are very likely to kill you but are more dangerous to the children living there who don’t get a say. It’s like saying living above a gas station is wonderful. Maybe but science disagrees

I would enjoy seeing said science (I am a faculty member at a local university that you definitely know, and I do "science" for a living buddy).

Contributing along the lines of this PP, the fearmongering ultrafine poster should check: https://www.faa.gov/sites/faa.gov/files/regulations_policies/policy_guidance/envir_policy/catex.pdf

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:A related technical question to the nice post above about procedures. Does anyone know what determines whether planes are arriving or departing on a given day? Do they just toss a coin?

Winds from the south - airplanes take off to the south and land over Bethesda, Palisades, Georgetown (south flow, usually during warmer weather)
winds from the north - airplanes take off to the north over Georgetown, Palisades, Bethesda, (north flow)

About 65/70 percent of the time we are in north flow which generates a lot of noise for communities north of the airport such as Georgetown, Foxhall, Arlington, Palisades or Bethesda.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Four points worth remembering:
1. There are 850 planes per day from DCA alone (and that’s NOT the only traffic over the Palisades)
2. Let’s say that the landings are now quieter (I’ll believe it when I see it), 400 planes will still be guaranteed over these houses from DCA alone each and every day (and that’s NOT the only air traffic)
3. Take offs are noisier, so that the Palisades are celebrating this small relief tells you everything you need to know about what hell it is to live under that kind of flight path
4. This isn’t long lived since DCA is expanding. This does not affect any other air traffic — Dulles etc which still fly over the Palisades. In the long run investing under the flight path sounds like a terrible idea

What makes you think all landings will be quieter. See these links to the minutes from meetings with the FAA regarding the changes:

1. Bad weather procedures (LDA-Y & LDA-Z)
Matt Fisher/FAA, page 2: "We hope to de-commission the LDA-Y approach that overflies the MD and DC side of
the Potomac River. The LDA-Z will be out of service for 2-3 months this summer for a
rehab project, but retained for the foreseeable future."
https://www.flyreagan.com/sites/flyreagan.com...%20meeting%2056..pdf

2. Approach procedure during normal weather conditions
pages 2 & 3: "Question: What were the criteria in terms of moving closer to the Palisades and the
reservoir?
Fisher: Primarily segment length and distance between the waypoints"
https://www.flyreagan.com/sites/flyreagan.com...G%20meeting%2050.pdf
slides: https://www.flyreagan.com/sites/flyreagan.com...n%20Presentation.pdf

Perhaps one of the experts could comment. It would be helpful to get a full picture of all the changes pertaining to arrivals.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Four points worth remembering:
1. There are 850 planes per day from DCA alone (and that’s NOT the only traffic over the Palisades)
2. Let’s say that the landings are now quieter (I’ll believe it when I see it), 400 planes will still be guaranteed over these houses from DCA alone each and every day (and that’s NOT the only air traffic)
3. Take offs are noisier, so that the Palisades are celebrating this small relief tells you everything you need to know about what hell it is to live under that kind of flight path
4. This isn’t long lived since DCA is expanding. This does not affect any other air traffic — Dulles etc which still fly over the Palisades. In the long run investing under the flight path sounds like a terrible idea

What makes you think all landings will be quieter. See these links to the minutes from meetings with the FAA regarding the changes:

1. Bad weather procedures (LDA-Y & LDA-Z)
Matt Fisher/FAA, page 2: "We hope to de-commission the LDA-Y approach that overflies the MD and DC side of
the Potomac River. The LDA-Z will be out of service for 2-3 months this summer for a
rehab project, but retained for the foreseeable future."
https://www.flyreagan.com/sites/flyreagan.com/files/2024-06/Final%20Summary%20April%2025%202024%20DCA%20WG%20meeting%2056..pdf


2. Approach procedure during normal weather conditions
pages 2 & 3: "Question: What were the criteria in terms of moving closer to the Palisades and the
reservoir?
Fisher: Primarily segment length and distance between the waypoints

Question: Is RORRK is a fly-by or a flyover waypoint?
Fisher: Fly-by.
Question: Big compromise because it's going to result in planes flying either over
or very close to the reservoir and flying over Georgetown University".

https://www.flyreagan.com/sites/flyreagan.com/files/2023-01/Final%20summary%2010-27-22%20DCA%20WG%20meeting%2050.pdf
https://www.flyreagan.com/sites/flyreagan.com/files/2022-10/2022_10_27%20-%20RWY%2019%20RNAV%20Approach%20Final%20Design%20Presentation.pdf

Perhaps one of the experts could comment. It would be helpful to get a full picture of all the changes pertaining to arrivals.


corrected/updated links above

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What about people who have lived in Potomac for 20 plus years and the amount of planes flying over head has increased exponentially. It was not an issue at the time. It begins around 5:30am and continues late into the evening. Sometimes during the day 3-4
Planes fly every 10 minutes.

My understanding is that the situation in Potomac is a lot better than further south in moco. Every 10 minutes? It's like every 2 mins (or worse) at some points during the day in Brookmont.

You do realize that the Potomac residents are running this show, right?

Yes, I am aware of this fact. Sad that they still complain, but increasing wealth tends to go hand in hand with being an obstreperous ass.

Brookmont civic association supported all the initiatives put forward by the MoCo reps on the DCA Community Noise Working Group including those that put airplanes departing DCA closer to your community like those that were implemented in 2021. I am sure you were told you must share the noise and not expect much because you should have known when you bought your house it was close to the airport and the river.

We knew. We are OK with it and enjoy being able to walk to the C&O whenever we want. We just find the Potomac poster's complaints to be completely in-character

Were you really fine with not having any opportunities to ask questions, provide feedback or comment on the proposals that were affecting your community? Wow.

It all happened before we bought our home. I am the OP and am happy to see this thread still open, continuing to attract ire and rebukes from both the "what noise?" and "ultrafine ppm will kill you" crowds. I'm happy to report that life in Glen Echo is wonderful.

I doubt that very much. Are you getting ready to sell or something?

Ultrafines by the way are very likely to kill you but are more dangerous to the children living there who don’t get a say. It’s like saying living above a gas station is wonderful. Maybe but science disagrees

I would enjoy seeing said science (I am a faculty member at a local university that you definitely know, and I do "science" for a living buddy).

Don’t be condescending. There’s is a lot of science — a lot out of Europe and in the US, UofW and others. This ppt is a nice overview but there are newer articles in the literature as well as popular science like Nature etc.

https://www.uecna.eu/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/UECNA-UFP-presentation.pdf

On a completely different note, Million Dollar Listing current season ep 3 has a pair of miserable sellers dying to sell a property they bought under a flight path. “Pit in my stomach” are the words used and they’re looking to lose the least amount of money possible

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:https://www.fox5dc.com/news/new-faa-guidance-attempts-decrease-noise-residents-living-near-reagan-airport

Ken Buckley who was interviewed here is a great guy. We appreciate his work on this issue a lot. He is known for being a straight shooter, but this interview is just smoke and mirrors. I don't know what happened. As it he was reading somebody else's script.

I noticed that too. He might be ready to celebrate any win however small and questionable or they got to him

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.fox5dc.com/news/new-faa-guidance-attempts-decrease-noise-residents-living-near-reagan-airport

Ken Buckley who was interviewed here is a great guy. We appreciate his work on this issue a lot. He is known for being a straight shooter, but this interview is just smoke and mirrors. I don't know what happened. As it he was reading somebody else's script.

I noticed that too. He might be ready to celebrate any win however small and questionable or they got to him

The pressure on him may be from the Potomac residents on the Working Group. The minutes from the meeting with the FAA are very telling. The main beneficiary of this change in approaches is Potomac where FERGI is located, somewhere between Avenel and Congressional Golf County clubs. The benefit for the stormy weather procedure is just an add on, an important one for several communities, though. The potential trade off for some of those communities is that the regular landings may be closer to them. This is what the FAA is saying about the benefits of the new flight path:

FAA "Fisher: Pulling 50-60 percent of the fleet mix away from FERGI. The LDA approach will also start at new DARIC, so that'll become the TAA point in that regard."

So half of the airplanes will be removed from FERGI/Potomac and the bad weather approach will begin at new DARIC instead of FERGI. TAA refers to the dispersal of airplanes over Potomac/Bethesda as opposed to channelization.
https://www.flyreagan.com/sites/flyreagan.com/files/2023-01/Final%20summary%2010-27-22%20DCA%20WG%20meeting%2050.pdf

[Anonymous]

This is the key statement from the FAA:

The FAA design is slightly closer to the DC side of the River near Georgetown and
Palisades, but also has lower weather minimums which will reduce the use of the
LDA procedures, which will be re-designed as part of this process.

https://www.flyreagan.com/sites/flyreagan.com/files/2023-01/Final%20summary%2010-27-22%20DCA%20WG%20meeting%2050.pdf

So the flight path will be closer to Georgetown and Palisades, but there will be less need for bad weather procedures. Is that correct?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A related technical question to the nice post above about procedures. Does anyone know what determines whether planes are arriving or departing on a given day? Do they just toss a coin?

Winds from the south - airplanes take off to the south and land over Bethesda, Palisades, Georgetown (south flow, usually during warmer weather)
winds from the north - airplanes take off to the north over Georgetown, Palisades, Bethesda, (north flow)

About 65/70 percent of the time we are in north flow which generates a lot of noise for communities north of the airport such as Georgetown, Foxhall, Arlington, Palisades or Bethesda.

Technically that is true. But the FAA sometimes opts for northflow departures even in south winds like this morning which means even more noise for DC. One of the members of the roundtable used to raise this issue a lot asking the FAA for more transparency. He has stopped doing that as if he was told to be a good boy. I wonder if the temporary suspension of the stormy weather procedure this summer means more days like that i.e. northflow departures even in south winds. I hope not.

IMO the DC communities are being thrown under the bus.