Disappointment

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Class ‘24 parent her. This thread has generated so many comments because it taps into a lot of our anxieties, stress, confusion and frustration over a process that unfortunately, is too intertwined with our personal/collective insecurities and aspirations. Many of us can relate to this thread because we all know someone or know of someone who “had high stats and did all the right things” and was still rejected at a lot of top schools. The problem isn’t going to get fixed with Supreme Court decisions, SAT tutors or high priced college counselors. It has to start at the parent level. We parents created the market for this craziness by paying for Kumon, elite sports camps, private college counselors, pay-to-play programs. Kids are jumping through all these hoops because we as parents have certain hopes and aspirations for them. I’m glad I was warned early on that my high stats kid was likely to be rejected by T-25 schools. It’s not the easiest pill to swallow for many of us who were easily accepted into these same top schools with B’s, limited extracurricular involvement, and few AP’s (and no non-profits or research back then!). However, being warned before hand was a blessing because it forced me to recalibrate expectations early on and focus more on fit and admissibility over prestige for my kid. Another great thing was seeing the examples set by top students from our local area who showed little or no interest in T-25 or WASP schools. They opted for our state flagship, service academies, less selective schools with prestigious niche programs, etc. There’s a big world of opportunity out there, and maybe if we parents start placing less importance on prestige schools and stop feeding the market for them, for this madness might abate.

These posts always get me to chuckle. You are just trying to get other parents to give up in order to give your kid an edge

The colleges created this problem by having opaque admissions with moving targets. They can fix it by laying out exact criteria for students to meet in order to gain acceptance.

Any school that laid out exact criteria would wind up accepting more than 25% of applicants, and that would make the school seem undesirable to the status-obsessed parents, thus reducing the number of “elite” schools they’re all so desperate to get their kids into and making the problem even worse.

the acceptance rate is distorted because kids apply to 10-20 schools. If colleges were more transparent and honest about what they were looking for , kids wouldn't need to apply to more than 3-5 schools.

But why would colleges all go along with your plan? Rich people and people with college savings are not clamoring for clarity. They might be grumbling about a lack of clarity, but what they’re clamoring for is exclusivity. The market is giving them what they want.

We have saved for our kids’ college all their lives. We’d like some clarity, pls. The system is dysfunctional.

No you’re not seeking clarity. I know you’re not, because there are plenty of schools offering clarity. But you don’t want “those schools.” You think those schools aren’t good enough for your kid. Say what you want, your revealed preference is for exclusivity.

If a flagship state U can no longer be considered a safety for top stats kids, then no, there are not plenty of schools offering clarity.

Why does it need to be the flagship? And why your state?

What do you mean "why your state"? What kind of silly question is that? Instate tuition is cheaper than out of state

Unless you live in DC (and this is DCUM).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Class ‘24 parent her. This thread has generated so many comments because it taps into a lot of our anxieties, stress, confusion and frustration over a process that unfortunately, is too intertwined with our personal/collective insecurities and aspirations. Many of us can relate to this thread because we all know someone or know of someone who “had high stats and did all the right things” and was still rejected at a lot of top schools. The problem isn’t going to get fixed with Supreme Court decisions, SAT tutors or high priced college counselors. It has to start at the parent level. We parents created the market for this craziness by paying for Kumon, elite sports camps, private college counselors, pay-to-play programs. Kids are jumping through all these hoops because we as parents have certain hopes and aspirations for them. I’m glad I was warned early on that my high stats kid was likely to be rejected by T-25 schools. It’s not the easiest pill to swallow for many of us who were easily accepted into these same top schools with B’s, limited extracurricular involvement, and few AP’s (and no non-profits or research back then!). However, being warned before hand was a blessing because it forced me to recalibrate expectations early on and focus more on fit and admissibility over prestige for my kid. Another great thing was seeing the examples set by top students from our local area who showed little or no interest in T-25 or WASP schools. They opted for our state flagship, service academies, less selective schools with prestigious niche programs, etc. There’s a big world of opportunity out there, and maybe if we parents start placing less importance on prestige schools and stop feeding the market for them, for this madness might abate.

These posts always get me to chuckle. You are just trying to get other parents to give up in order to give your kid an edge

The colleges created this problem by having opaque admissions with moving targets. They can fix it by laying out exact criteria for students to meet in order to gain acceptance.

Poster above. My kid (‘24 read carefully) has already been through the process. I don’t have skin in the game and am not trying to give my kid an edge. Just share my two cents.

+1 DP. For us it took going through it with Kid 1 whose results were a bit of a shock. Kid 2 applied ED to a great fit, high target that he loved, and got in back in December. Absolutely best result. But sometimes you have to live through it to get it, I think.

As to the colleges laying out exact criteria: they don't have exact criteria, nor do they want to limit themselves that way. This is exactly the mindset that gets people into this pickle in the first place. Ignore "rankings" and don't pretend schools are going to rank your kids by stats. They just don't. They never have. They give you the basic range for some stats in the CDS, but that is an average, not a requirement.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Class ‘24 parent her. This thread has generated so many comments because it taps into a lot of our anxieties, stress, confusion and frustration over a process that unfortunately, is too intertwined with our personal/collective insecurities and aspirations. Many of us can relate to this thread because we all know someone or know of someone who “had high stats and did all the right things” and was still rejected at a lot of top schools. The problem isn’t going to get fixed with Supreme Court decisions, SAT tutors or high priced college counselors. It has to start at the parent level. We parents created the market for this craziness by paying for Kumon, elite sports camps, private college counselors, pay-to-play programs. Kids are jumping through all these hoops because we as parents have certain hopes and aspirations for them. I’m glad I was warned early on that my high stats kid was likely to be rejected by T-25 schools. It’s not the easiest pill to swallow for many of us who were easily accepted into these same top schools with B’s, limited extracurricular involvement, and few AP’s (and no non-profits or research back then!). However, being warned before hand was a blessing because it forced me to recalibrate expectations early on and focus more on fit and admissibility over prestige for my kid. Another great thing was seeing the examples set by top students from our local area who showed little or no interest in T-25 or WASP schools. They opted for our state flagship, service academies, less selective schools with prestigious niche programs, etc. There’s a big world of opportunity out there, and maybe if we parents start placing less importance on prestige schools and stop feeding the market for them, for this madness might abate.

These posts always get me to chuckle. You are just trying to get other parents to give up in order to give your kid an edge

The colleges created this problem by having opaque admissions with moving targets. They can fix it by laying out exact criteria for students to meet in order to gain acceptance.

This will never happen. And can’t. Ok, Princeton says, “You must have perfect SATs, at least 7 APs with 5, sports captain, 4.0. …” that still leaves more candidates than first-year seats.

And eliminate so many others who bring other things to a campus.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Class ‘24 parent her. This thread has generated so many comments because it taps into a lot of our anxieties, stress, confusion and frustration over a process that unfortunately, is too intertwined with our personal/collective insecurities and aspirations. Many of us can relate to this thread because we all know someone or know of someone who “had high stats and did all the right things” and was still rejected at a lot of top schools. The problem isn’t going to get fixed with Supreme Court decisions, SAT tutors or high priced college counselors. It has to start at the parent level. We parents created the market for this craziness by paying for Kumon, elite sports camps, private college counselors, pay-to-play programs. Kids are jumping through all these hoops because we as parents have certain hopes and aspirations for them. I’m glad I was warned early on that my high stats kid was likely to be rejected by T-25 schools. It’s not the easiest pill to swallow for many of us who were easily accepted into these same top schools with B’s, limited extracurricular involvement, and few AP’s (and no non-profits or research back then!). However, being warned before hand was a blessing because it forced me to recalibrate expectations early on and focus more on fit and admissibility over prestige for my kid. Another great thing was seeing the examples set by top students from our local area who showed little or no interest in T-25 or WASP schools. They opted for our state flagship, service academies, less selective schools with prestigious niche programs, etc. There’s a big world of opportunity out there, and maybe if we parents start placing less importance on prestige schools and stop feeding the market for them, for this madness might abate.

These posts always get me to chuckle. You are just trying to get other parents to give up in order to give your kid an edge

The colleges created this problem by having opaque admissions with moving targets. They can fix it by laying out exact criteria for students to meet in order to gain acceptance.

This will never happen. And can’t. Ok, Princeton says, “You must have perfect SATs, at least 7 APs with 5, sports captain, 4.0. …” that still leaves more candidates than first-year seats.

And eliminate so many others who bring other things to a campus.

and that is why Harvard has remedial math classes

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Class ‘24 parent her. This thread has generated so many comments because it taps into a lot of our anxieties, stress, confusion and frustration over a process that unfortunately, is too intertwined with our personal/collective insecurities and aspirations. Many of us can relate to this thread because we all know someone or know of someone who “had high stats and did all the right things” and was still rejected at a lot of top schools. The problem isn’t going to get fixed with Supreme Court decisions, SAT tutors or high priced college counselors. It has to start at the parent level. We parents created the market for this craziness by paying for Kumon, elite sports camps, private college counselors, pay-to-play programs. Kids are jumping through all these hoops because we as parents have certain hopes and aspirations for them. I’m glad I was warned early on that my high stats kid was likely to be rejected by T-25 schools. It’s not the easiest pill to swallow for many of us who were easily accepted into these same top schools with B’s, limited extracurricular involvement, and few AP’s (and no non-profits or research back then!). However, being warned before hand was a blessing because it forced me to recalibrate expectations early on and focus more on fit and admissibility over prestige for my kid. Another great thing was seeing the examples set by top students from our local area who showed little or no interest in T-25 or WASP schools. They opted for our state flagship, service academies, less selective schools with prestigious niche programs, etc. There’s a big world of opportunity out there, and maybe if we parents start placing less importance on prestige schools and stop feeding the market for them, for this madness might abate.

These posts always get me to chuckle. You are just trying to get other parents to give up in order to give your kid an edge

The colleges created this problem by having opaque admissions with moving targets. They can fix it by laying out exact criteria for students to meet in order to gain acceptance.

The first sentence of your post is just foolish, read the first sentence of the poster.

The second sentence (and beyond) also shows that you know nothing. Pray tell how does one lay out the 'exact requirements for admissions' in a country with widely variable k-12 education and University missions which do not align to strictly definable criteria? And if one could do so how does one deal with the results once you have thousands of kids meeting those requirements and only a fraction of the required seats available? Not so simple is it Simon?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Class ‘24 parent her. This thread has generated so many comments because it taps into a lot of our anxieties, stress, confusion and frustration over a process that unfortunately, is too intertwined with our personal/collective insecurities and aspirations. Many of us can relate to this thread because we all know someone or know of someone who “had high stats and did all the right things” and was still rejected at a lot of top schools. The problem isn’t going to get fixed with Supreme Court decisions, SAT tutors or high priced college counselors. It has to start at the parent level. We parents created the market for this craziness by paying for Kumon, elite sports camps, private college counselors, pay-to-play programs. Kids are jumping through all these hoops because we as parents have certain hopes and aspirations for them. I’m glad I was warned early on that my high stats kid was likely to be rejected by T-25 schools. It’s not the easiest pill to swallow for many of us who were easily accepted into these same top schools with B’s, limited extracurricular involvement, and few AP’s (and no non-profits or research back then!). However, being warned before hand was a blessing because it forced me to recalibrate expectations early on and focus more on fit and admissibility over prestige for my kid. Another great thing was seeing the examples set by top students from our local area who showed little or no interest in T-25 or WASP schools. They opted for our state flagship, service academies, less selective schools with prestigious niche programs, etc. There’s a big world of opportunity out there, and maybe if we parents start placing less importance on prestige schools and stop feeding the market for them, for this madness might abate.

These posts always get me to chuckle. You are just trying to get other parents to give up in order to give your kid an edge

The colleges created this problem by having opaque admissions with moving targets. They can fix it by laying out exact criteria for students to meet in order to gain acceptance.

Any school that laid out exact criteria would wind up accepting more than 25% of applicants, and that would make the school seem undesirable to the status-obsessed parents, thus reducing the number of “elite” schools they’re all so desperate to get their kids into and making the problem even worse.

the acceptance rate is distorted because kids apply to 10-20 schools. If colleges were more transparent and honest about what they were looking for , kids wouldn't need to apply to more than 3-5 schools.

But why would colleges all go along with your plan? Rich people and people with college savings are not clamoring for clarity. They might be grumbling about a lack of clarity, but what they’re clamoring for is exclusivity. The market is giving them what they want.

We have saved for our kids’ college all their lives. We’d like some clarity, pls. The system is dysfunctional.

Clarity is easy to find. Just stop chasing the same 30 Universities and 10 SLACS and you'll be fine.

[Anonymous]

Lehigh is a hidden gem, particularly if you could get financial aid from Lehigh.

[Anonymous]

Haven’t read the entire thread but OP should have ED2 somewhere after JHU. She rolled the dice on too many reaches believing one of them would come through.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Lehigh is a hidden gem, particularly if you could get financial aid from Lehigh.

What are you talking about? Top 75 university founded in the mid-1800s with 20k applications a year and a 25% acceptance rate.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Class ‘24 parent her. This thread has generated so many comments because it taps into a lot of our anxieties, stress, confusion and frustration over a process that unfortunately, is too intertwined with our personal/collective insecurities and aspirations. Many of us can relate to this thread because we all know someone or know of someone who “had high stats and did all the right things” and was still rejected at a lot of top schools. The problem isn’t going to get fixed with Supreme Court decisions, SAT tutors or high priced college counselors. It has to start at the parent level. We parents created the market for this craziness by paying for Kumon, elite sports camps, private college counselors, pay-to-play programs. Kids are jumping through all these hoops because we as parents have certain hopes and aspirations for them. I’m glad I was warned early on that my high stats kid was likely to be rejected by T-25 schools. It’s not the easiest pill to swallow for many of us who were easily accepted into these same top schools with B’s, limited extracurricular involvement, and few AP’s (and no non-profits or research back then!). However, being warned before hand was a blessing because it forced me to recalibrate expectations early on and focus more on fit and admissibility over prestige for my kid. Another great thing was seeing the examples set by top students from our local area who showed little or no interest in T-25 or WASP schools. They opted for our state flagship, service academies, less selective schools with prestigious niche programs, etc. There’s a big world of opportunity out there, and maybe if we parents start placing less importance on prestige schools and stop feeding the market for them, for this madness might abate.

These posts always get me to chuckle. You are just trying to get other parents to give up in order to give your kid an edge

The colleges created this problem by having opaque admissions with moving targets. They can fix it by laying out exact criteria for students to meet in order to gain acceptance.

This will never happen. And can’t. Ok, Princeton says, “You must have perfect SATs, at least 7 APs with 5, sports captain, 4.0. …” that still leaves more candidates than first-year seats.

And eliminate so many others who bring other things to a campus.

and that is why Harvard has remedial math classes

Harvard has remedial math classes because kids were pushed through math too fast, too young, and lack the basics. Remedial math is for students who arrive thinking they are far ahead in math, but actually can't pass the placement test. They are finding that 'foundational' skills are lacking -- basic algebra and geometry. Every kid admitted took those courses, but too many took them in middle school and learned/retained nothing.

[Anonymous]

I didn't have it in me to read through this entire thread - but OP, I am sorry your dd is disappointed, but she does have some very good choices, so take her to visit. And I agree with others who said to work the Cornell and CMU waitlists - for Cornell, be sure to make clear in her LOCI (and through her HS counselor) that she would 100% attend if offered a spot off the waitlist. Kids with her stats often get WL'd from Cornell from our HS because they assume those kids will get into a more selective school and go there instead. If she goes to Pitt - which she may love btw - and is unhappy, she can transfer out and with her academic chops, I have no doubt she will get wonderful grades. If she wants to go that route, make sure she forms close relationships with a couple of professors who can writer her excellent LORs. Hang in there - I am sorry some people on this thread are being so bitter and cruel. Also, I completely get why you would mix up EA and ED or not know she had to apply to UVA EA - it is extremely tough as a parent who is not familiar with the crazy college admissions process here to stay on top of every detail. The problem with this board is there are so many posters who live and breathe college admissions and are so obsessed that they assume everyone *should* know these things, forgetting that many parents have jobs, other kids, other obligations, and cannot or will not spend all their free time online obsessively reading and posting about college admissions. GL to your dd - she will do great wherever she goes! (And do work those waitlists - it's not enough to ask to be kept on the WL, you really do have to write a very strong letter and make it clear it is your absolute first choice.)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Lehigh is a hidden gem, particularly if you could get financial aid from Lehigh.

Hidden? Not.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Op writes, "We all were convinced that DD had it in the bag - Worst of all is that many of her classmates w/ lower stats and worse ECs have gotten into a few of these schools."

This is why so many people are finding OP insufferable. She is so critical of other students with "worse ECs". I bet those are the kids who were on students council, drama, yearbook, marching band, school sports so they didn't have as many weighted/honors/AP classes. Maybe they were taking care of a sibling or having to have paid employment. Being president of the honor club is not student leadership. Her child didn't do anything to make her school a better place. Her whole application seems like she went along checking boxes to try to get into top ranked colleges.

And OP says they make between 200-400k but doesn't answer if they need financial aid. Since she didn't apply ED 1 to JHU most likely they aren't a FULL PAY family. Now add that she applied to the MOST competitive major at JHU- biomedical engineering. It's the number 1 rated program in the country. That acceptance rate a few years ago was probably only 1-2 percent. They only take 100-120 students and it is hard to transfer in.

Now add that the NIH is being cut so JHU is supposedly not taking nearly the same amount of grad student. More reason to take ED 1 FULL PAY students.

So OP not "worst of all" is not that many of her classmates with lower stats got in. It is that you are to shallow to think - wow, that is great at least one of my child's classmates got in so I am going to wish them the all the best.

I also get the impression that OP is not full pay and that (along with unrealistic expectations) was likely a factor in her flawed admissions strategy.

If "not full pay", then why not EA to UVA your most affordable, top ranked school. Had she done EA, she likely would have doubled her chances for admission. So there are so many flawed parts to the admission strategy

Unlikely. When you compare apples to apples for unhooked applicants, EA rarely "doubles" your chances.

Look at the numbers for UVA specifically. It literally does just that

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I smell a 🧌

Do you think her profile is too "basic"? She says she regrets not picking more creative ECs, although I think her ECs were perfectly suited for her major + demonstrated her passion.

Yeah, I agree there is nothing that stands out in her ECs.

ECs:
not impressive: - A few regional awards (STEM)
Actually good: - 200+ volunteer hours @ local hospital
everyone has one: - Founder of non-profit
this year AOs don't like research for some reason: - Research w/ prof at T30
everyone has one: - Competitive summer program for BME
everyone has this: - Lots of community service

This year I heard Stanford retracted an acceptance because the applicant lied about volunteer hours.
Are those 200 volunteer hours @ local hospital registered with the school?

Yes, she made sure that everything was registered. I'm assuming the more "basic" ECs were the factor harming her application?

No, it's just a bizarre system that makes kids do these things. In other countries kids don't have to do these admissions acrobatics.

No, other countries instead track kids around age 11/12 (or earlier). You are tracked at this age, based on a one day test. Do well, you can be on tract for pre-med/stem/engineering. Do okay, and you can focus on humanities and social sciences (non stem), do worse, and you won't be tracked for much college at all. And without $$$$$$ it is damn near impossible to get off those tracks.
So yeah, I 1000% prefer what we have, where a kid can grow academically after 5th/6th grade and still decide to be an engineer or a doctor after age 12.

Nah. You can pretty much tell where a kid should be by the end of 6th grade. Pretending that kids can “grow” after that is a waste of everyone’s time and of public resources.

This is so un-American!
I am an immigrant from Asia. What attracts us so much about America is precisely that, as long as you work hard, you always have another opportunity.
Tiger parents often pushed kids hard in their childhood, then the kids lost motivation once they left home.

America doesn’t do everything right. The education system is a perfect example of this! It is a huge waste of time, money, and effort to try and get every kid to go to college. Many kids should be put on a vocational track in high school, as many countries do.

Could not agree more. Open enrollment in Honors and AP classes at our public HS has been an unmitigated disaster for the kids who actually deserve to be there. Tons of kids are literally flunking. It should not even be possible to flunk an AP class. It means someone screwed up somewhere.

Yes, I agree open enrollment into AP courses should not be allowed. Kids should be required to at minimum get a B or better in the honors/honor equivalent course the prior year or an B+ or better in a regular course. But many do allow open enrollment because it means less work for the overworked staff and teachers, it means they don't have to deal with nasty pushy parents who want "my kid belongs in AP X or Honors X, I don't care that they got a C in regular X this year" This way with open enrollment, any failures are totally on the parents/student.

DP. I completely disagree. How does someone else's kid potentially doing badly in an AP affect you or your kid? EVERY student should have the opportunity to excel, and most do. And if they do badly or fail, then it is indeed on them/their parents - no one else is affected.

Because teachers have to teach to the class, and if a group is struggling, they often focus on helping those kids, and that means a different class structure. My kids take AP courses/Honors courses to avoid "the general population"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Class ‘24 parent her. This thread has generated so many comments because it taps into a lot of our anxieties, stress, confusion and frustration over a process that unfortunately, is too intertwined with our personal/collective insecurities and aspirations. Many of us can relate to this thread because we all know someone or know of someone who “had high stats and did all the right things” and was still rejected at a lot of top schools. The problem isn’t going to get fixed with Supreme Court decisions, SAT tutors or high priced college counselors. It has to start at the parent level. We parents created the market for this craziness by paying for Kumon, elite sports camps, private college counselors, pay-to-play programs. Kids are jumping through all these hoops because we as parents have certain hopes and aspirations for them. I’m glad I was warned early on that my high stats kid was likely to be rejected by T-25 schools. It’s not the easiest pill to swallow for many of us who were easily accepted into these same top schools with B’s, limited extracurricular involvement, and few AP’s (and no non-profits or research back then!). However, being warned before hand was a blessing because it forced me to recalibrate expectations early on and focus more on fit and admissibility over prestige for my kid. Another great thing was seeing the examples set by top students from our local area who showed little or no interest in T-25 or WASP schools. They opted for our state flagship, service academies, less selective schools with prestigious niche programs, etc. There’s a big world of opportunity out there, and maybe if we parents start placing less importance on prestige schools and stop feeding the market for them, for this madness might abate.

These posts always get me to chuckle. You are just trying to get other parents to give up in order to give your kid an edge

The colleges created this problem by having opaque admissions with moving targets. They can fix it by laying out exact criteria for students to meet in order to gain acceptance.

Any school that laid out exact criteria would wind up accepting more than 25% of applicants, and that would make the school seem undesirable to the status-obsessed parents, thus reducing the number of “elite” schools they’re all so desperate to get their kids into and making the problem even worse.

the acceptance rate is distorted because kids apply to 10-20 schools. If colleges were more transparent and honest about what they were looking for , kids wouldn't need to apply to more than 3-5 schools.

But why would colleges all go along with your plan? Rich people and people with college savings are not clamoring for clarity. They might be grumbling about a lack of clarity, but what they’re clamoring for is exclusivity. The market is giving them what they want.

We have saved for our kids’ college all their lives. We’d like some clarity, pls. The system is dysfunctional.

Clarity is easy to find. Just stop chasing the same 30 Universities and 10 SLACS and you'll be fine.

Your talking nonsense. Unless you know where our child applied. Do you?

No, you don’t.