The state of MCPS is atrocious

[Anonymous]

Not necessarily PP. I needed more time to get math. I needed my teacher to spend the majority of the class showing us how to solve problem. Then I needed the equivalent of another class to do some problems together and then on my own. Class didn't work that way so I'd go to my teacher at lunch to get this extra help. I had an excellent teacher for algebra 1 and 2.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And if your source is from 2019, it’s irrelevant. COVID revealed to a ton of parents how awful MCPS really is.

Moreover, only 17% of the people contacted for the 2019 survey responded.

https://moco360.media/2019/10/03/parents-pleased-with-mcps-survey-shows/

And yet they keep sending their kids to MCPS schools, while they themselves do little to affect any change or want to increase taxes to pay for their champagne wishes.

What choice do most of us have? Not everyone is wealthy or living in a "good" school district. The only "affordable" privates are Catholic schools and that's only for elementary. Only a few Catholic schools are remotely welcoming to non-Catholic/non-Christian families. The rest of us cannot afford $50-60K privates, and there are very few privates let alone non-religious ones.

And, the privates don't have the same math track come MS/HS.

Every private I’ve seen has MS/HS math tracks.

They aren't equal. Of course they have MS/HS math tracks but often Algebra isn't started till 8th, or even 9th, vs. MCPS is 6/7th grade.

And it’s been shown that pushing kids too fast in math isn’t always appropriate. It’s not as though MCPS kids are excelling in math; far from it. So this wouldn’t be what I brag about.

This! I have a friend who teaches math at a state university. He says it would be better if middle/high schools slowed down and spent more time on Algebra instead of pushing kids through at young ages. The number of remedial Math classes at his university is growing.

MCPS curriculum experts testified to this at the BOE meeting recently. Compacted math is leading to superficial and poor understanding of algebraic fundamentals.

No. Compacted Math is not the issue. My kid went through Compacted Math and did great.

The issue is that too many students are placed in Compacted Math, when they should be in regular Math.

Another issue is that MCPS passes kids along even when they have not mastered the material.

There were SO many kids in DD’s Matt classes who should not have been accelerated and who could not keep up.

Keep Compacted Math for kids who can handle it.

Just because compacted math worked for your kid doesn’t mean it’s a good idea from a pedagogical standpoint.

I agree with the earlier poster that compacted math should be available for some, but with an acknowledgment that it’s not the best choice for everyone.

Of course rushing kids through math is bad pedagogy. They should be given time to master concepts and practice them. However, once a child has learned something, I don’t see what the pedagogical advantage is in refusing to teach them anything else for some predetermined interval.

The important thing is that kids learn the material. Time is not the only variable in that process. The content children are exposed to, how it is presented, and the children themselves are just some of the other variables involved in the process. Regardless of how many hours they sit in a math classroom, they can only learn material they’re taught.

For example:

In 1st grade, as differentiation for advanced students, they offered advanced problems on the back of the regularly assigned homework. Giving a kid a worksheet with the instruction to put in the correct > or < symbol without mentioning that those symbols represent greater than or less than is never going to work. Of course advanced students aren’t automatically going to know this. You could keep students in the class for 10 years, and they might eventually through trial and error figure out what you wanted, but I wouldn’t call it good pedagogy. Or you could actually teach the concept and move on.

Similarly, I was frequently frustrated by MCPS’s emphasis on calculator use. I told my kids they weren’t allowed to use calculators on homework without checking with me first. When DD told me they had a worksheet where they had to get square roots, it seemed like a calculator might be necessary, until I looked at the assignment. With problems like (sqrt 3) + (sqrt 27), she could have punched those numbers into a calculator and obtained a correct answer, while entirely missing the lesson. Knowing how to SIMPLIFY the problem is a much more valuable lesson. She could have filled out countless worksheets for years with the decimal answers to square roots that her calculator spit out, without ever learning how to actually work with radicals. On the other hand, once she had mastered working with radicals (fully understanding the concept, being able to employ it with ease, and had it solidly fixed in her memory), continuing to repeat the same lesson instead of using it to progress to the next level serves no purpose other than to frustrate and discourage.

I think good pedagogy is to give students the right amount of time. For some, this may mean compacted math (or even more acceleration), for others it may mean a slower math progression, perhaps even with additional instructional time with a double period, summer school, or tutoring. Every kid is different, so expecting them to learn at the same rate seems not only like bad pedagogy, but as something that is blatantly illogical.

I think we should have a wide variety of math classes and provide supports to help students succeed at their level and progress to the next level. Flexible ability grouping is not tracking. I don’t believe in gate keeping, but I also don’t believe in lowering standards. I don’t think our goal should be to go at any particular pace nor to get all the same students to the same place at the same time. I think the goal should be to teach all students what they need to know, and enable them to learn as much beyond that as they want.

This sounds like common sense from an educator who really understands the nuances of the situation. Why don't people in Central Office or the MCEA listen to you?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Not necessarily PP. I needed more time to get math. I needed my teacher to spend the majority of the class showing us how to solve problem. Then I needed the equivalent of another class to do some problems together and then on my own. Class didn't work that way so I'd go to my teacher at lunch to get this extra help. I had an excellent teacher for algebra 1 and 2.

Now everything is auto graded on the app's and the teachers don't review the assignments. They might get a dozen or so problems before they move on to the next topic. Teacher does a 5-10 minute lecture and then they work on problems. Then they have a lot of free classes for kids to do catch up on the assignments they didn't do. Its nothing like how we were taught.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not necessarily PP. I needed more time to get math. I needed my teacher to spend the majority of the class showing us how to solve problem. Then I needed the equivalent of another class to do some problems together and then on my own. Class didn't work that way so I'd go to my teacher at lunch to get this extra help. I had an excellent teacher for algebra 1 and 2.

Now everything is auto graded on the app's and the teachers don't review the assignments. They might get a dozen or so problems before they move on to the next topic. Teacher does a 5-10 minute lecture and then they work on problems. Then they have a lot of free classes for kids to do catch up on the assignments they didn't do. Its nothing like how we were taught.

How can anyone think that’s ok for their kid?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not necessarily PP. I needed more time to get math. I needed my teacher to spend the majority of the class showing us how to solve problem. Then I needed the equivalent of another class to do some problems together and then on my own. Class didn't work that way so I'd go to my teacher at lunch to get this extra help. I had an excellent teacher for algebra 1 and 2.

Now everything is auto graded on the app's and the teachers don't review the assignments. They might get a dozen or so problems before they move on to the next topic. Teacher does a 5-10 minute lecture and then they work on problems. Then they have a lot of free classes for kids to do catch up on the assignments they didn't do. Its nothing like how we were taught.

How can anyone think that’s ok for their kid?

It's not and that's why we used the free tutoring. Not sure what we will do next year as we cannot afford to private pay for it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not necessarily PP. I needed more time to get math. I needed my teacher to spend the majority of the class showing us how to solve problem. Then I needed the equivalent of another class to do some problems together and then on my own. Class didn't work that way so I'd go to my teacher at lunch to get this extra help. I had an excellent teacher for algebra 1 and 2.

Now everything is auto graded on the app's and the teachers don't review the assignments. They might get a dozen or so problems before they move on to the next topic. Teacher does a 5-10 minute lecture and then they work on problems. Then they have a lot of free classes for kids to do catch up on the assignments they didn't do. Its nothing like how we were taught.

This was at a private school. I sent my kid to a public ES and it left a lot to be desired so I switched him to a private school where he could get the help he needed (he needed help in math like I did).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And if your source is from 2019, it’s irrelevant. COVID revealed to a ton of parents how awful MCPS really is.

Moreover, only 17% of the people contacted for the 2019 survey responded.

https://moco360.media/2019/10/03/parents-pleased-with-mcps-survey-shows/

And yet they keep sending their kids to MCPS schools, while they themselves do little to affect any change or want to increase taxes to pay for their champagne wishes.

What choice do most of us have? Not everyone is wealthy or living in a "good" school district. The only "affordable" privates are Catholic schools and that's only for elementary. Only a few Catholic schools are remotely welcoming to non-Catholic/non-Christian families. The rest of us cannot afford $50-60K privates, and there are very few privates let alone non-religious ones.

And, the privates don't have the same math track come MS/HS.

Every private I’ve seen has MS/HS math tracks.

They aren't equal. Of course they have MS/HS math tracks but often Algebra isn't started till 8th, or even 9th, vs. MCPS is 6/7th grade.

And it’s been shown that pushing kids too fast in math isn’t always appropriate. It’s not as though MCPS kids are excelling in math; far from it. So this wouldn’t be what I brag about.

This! I have a friend who teaches math at a state university. He says it would be better if middle/high schools slowed down and spent more time on Algebra instead of pushing kids through at young ages. The number of remedial Math classes at his university is growing.

MCPS curriculum experts testified to this at the BOE meeting recently. Compacted math is leading to superficial and poor understanding of algebraic fundamentals.

No. Compacted Math is not the issue. My kid went through Compacted Math and did great.

The issue is that too many students are placed in Compacted Math, when they should be in regular Math.

Another issue is that MCPS passes kids along even when they have not mastered the material.

There were SO many kids in DD’s Matt classes who should not have been accelerated and who could not keep up.

Keep Compacted Math for kids who can handle it.

Just because compacted math worked for your kid doesn’t mean it’s a good idea from a pedagogical standpoint.

I agree with the earlier poster that compacted math should be available for some, but with an acknowledgment that it’s not the best choice for everyone.

Of course rushing kids through math is bad pedagogy. They should be given time to master concepts and practice them. However, once a child has learned something, I don’t see what the pedagogical advantage is in refusing to teach them anything else for some predetermined interval.

The important thing is that kids learn the material. Time is not the only variable in that process. The content children are exposed to, how it is presented, and the children themselves are just some of the other variables involved in the process. Regardless of how many hours they sit in a math classroom, they can only learn material they’re taught.

For example:

In 1st grade, as differentiation for advanced students, they offered advanced problems on the back of the regularly assigned homework. Giving a kid a worksheet with the instruction to put in the correct > or < symbol without mentioning that those symbols represent greater than or less than is never going to work. Of course advanced students aren’t automatically going to know this. You could keep students in the class for 10 years, and they might eventually through trial and error figure out what you wanted, but I wouldn’t call it good pedagogy. Or you could actually teach the concept and move on.

Similarly, I was frequently frustrated by MCPS’s emphasis on calculator use. I told my kids they weren’t allowed to use calculators on homework without checking with me first. When DD told me they had a worksheet where they had to get square roots, it seemed like a calculator might be necessary, until I looked at the assignment. With problems like (sqrt 3) + (sqrt 27), she could have punched those numbers into a calculator and obtained a correct answer, while entirely missing the lesson. Knowing how to SIMPLIFY the problem is a much more valuable lesson. She could have filled out countless worksheets for years with the decimal answers to square roots that her calculator spit out, without ever learning how to actually work with radicals. On the other hand, once she had mastered working with radicals (fully understanding the concept, being able to employ it with ease, and had it solidly fixed in her memory), continuing to repeat the same lesson instead of using it to progress to the next level serves no purpose other than to frustrate and discourage.

I think good pedagogy is to give students the right amount of time. For some, this may mean compacted math (or even more acceleration), for others it may mean a slower math progression, perhaps even with additional instructional time with a double period, summer school, or tutoring. Every kid is different, so expecting them to learn at the same rate seems not only like bad pedagogy, but as something that is blatantly illogical.

I think we should have a wide variety of math classes and provide supports to help students succeed at their level and progress to the next level. Flexible ability grouping is not tracking. I don’t believe in gate keeping, but I also don’t believe in lowering standards. I don’t think our goal should be to go at any particular pace nor to get all the same students to the same place at the same time. I think the goal should be to teach all students what they need to know, and enable them to learn as much beyond that as they want.

This sounds like common sense from an educator who really understands the nuances of the situation. Why don't people in Central Office or the MCEA listen to you?

07/12/2023 15:43 here, the PP you responded to

Just to clarify, I am a parent, not a professional educator. I never meant to imply credentials that I don’t have.

As a parent, my posting seems like common sense, and I have long been frustrated by the MCPS positions that seem to be entirely divorced from common sense. I think the resistance to these (and other positions that I also think are common sense) probably stems from a combination of politics, ego, and sincere but misplaced good intentions. These are compounded by a system structured to mask deficiencies and push PR. Everyone knows we have “one of the best school systems in the country” and there are many kids who are unquestionably doing great things (although no one questions how much is due to parents supplementing at home, outside tutoring, or MCPS teachers furtively compensating individually for the deficiencies of the curriculum.).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And if your source is from 2019, it’s irrelevant. COVID revealed to a ton of parents how awful MCPS really is.

Moreover, only 17% of the people contacted for the 2019 survey responded.

https://moco360.media/2019/10/03/parents-pleased-with-mcps-survey-shows/

And yet they keep sending their kids to MCPS schools, while they themselves do little to affect any change or want to increase taxes to pay for their champagne wishes.

What choice do most of us have? Not everyone is wealthy or living in a "good" school district. The only "affordable" privates are Catholic schools and that's only for elementary. Only a few Catholic schools are remotely welcoming to non-Catholic/non-Christian families. The rest of us cannot afford $50-60K privates, and there are very few privates let alone non-religious ones.

And, the privates don't have the same math track come MS/HS.

Every private I’ve seen has MS/HS math tracks.

They aren't equal. Of course they have MS/HS math tracks but often Algebra isn't started till 8th, or even 9th, vs. MCPS is 6/7th grade.

And it’s been shown that pushing kids too fast in math isn’t always appropriate. It’s not as though MCPS kids are excelling in math; far from it. So this wouldn’t be what I brag about.

This! I have a friend who teaches math at a state university. He says it would be better if middle/high schools slowed down and spent more time on Algebra instead of pushing kids through at young ages. The number of remedial Math classes at his university is growing.

MCPS curriculum experts testified to this at the BOE meeting recently. Compacted math is leading to superficial and poor understanding of algebraic fundamentals.

Compacted math or AIM? I would think AIM is more the issue as compacted math is 4-5th. I didn't think compacted math was bad but it focused too much on strategies vs. doing actual problems and math facts (though math facts should be much younger).

I think they mentioned both? Basically, we're either cramming too much too soon or we're prioritizing rapid advancement in math or substantive understanding of the subject matter.

The issue was rushing to take Algebra and the stigma around not getting to it sooner instead of when a child is prepared, be that 7th,8th, or 9th grade.

It's not rushing and in MS, kids have a huge option of classes and they can start Algebra in 7-9th grades, some can start in 6th. Its not a once size fits all like your are making it. Most smarter kids take AIM in 6th, which is pre-algebra.

I guess you didn’t read the entire comment. If it’s about rushing that is propelled by stigma or wrong beliefs. People believe that getting to Algebra by 6th or 7th grade and definitely by 8th is the only path or their kid will be left behind. They believe that just because kids are doing well in math in 1st grade they should automatically be in the accelerated path and compacted math. Some people won’t even listen to teachers and administrators that their kid is on level or needs help even when the evidence is presented. Also teachers don’t really understand all the math concepts themselves, at least not at a depth that allows explaining in differently way depending on the student(for that point neither do a lot of parents).

The above starts in ES. As others have noted, not everyone needs to be in compacted math. Additionally, kids need more exposure to word problems and real world application of math.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And if your source is from 2019, it’s irrelevant. COVID revealed to a ton of parents how awful MCPS really is.

Moreover, only 17% of the people contacted for the 2019 survey responded.

https://moco360.media/2019/10/03/parents-pleased-with-mcps-survey-shows/

And yet they keep sending their kids to MCPS schools, while they themselves do little to affect any change or want to increase taxes to pay for their champagne wishes.

What choice do most of us have? Not everyone is wealthy or living in a "good" school district. The only "affordable" privates are Catholic schools and that's only for elementary. Only a few Catholic schools are remotely welcoming to non-Catholic/non-Christian families. The rest of us cannot afford $50-60K privates, and there are very few privates let alone non-religious ones.

And, the privates don't have the same math track come MS/HS.

Every private I’ve seen has MS/HS math tracks.

They aren't equal. Of course they have MS/HS math tracks but often Algebra isn't started till 8th, or even 9th, vs. MCPS is 6/7th grade.

And it’s been shown that pushing kids too fast in math isn’t always appropriate. It’s not as though MCPS kids are excelling in math; far from it. So this wouldn’t be what I brag about.

This! I have a friend who teaches math at a state university. He says it would be better if middle/high schools slowed down and spent more time on Algebra instead of pushing kids through at young ages. The number of remedial Math classes at his university is growing.

MCPS curriculum experts testified to this at the BOE meeting recently. Compacted math is leading to superficial and poor understanding of algebraic fundamentals.

Compacted math or AIM? I would think AIM is more the issue as compacted math is 4-5th. I didn't think compacted math was bad but it focused too much on strategies vs. doing actual problems and math facts (though math facts should be much younger).

I think they mentioned both? Basically, we're either cramming too much too soon or we're prioritizing rapid advancement in math or substantive understanding of the subject matter.

The issue was rushing to take Algebra and the stigma around not getting to it sooner instead of when a child is prepared, be that 7th,8th, or 9th grade.

It's not rushing and in MS, kids have a huge option of classes and they can start Algebra in 7-9th grades, some can start in 6th. Its not a once size fits all like your are making it. Most smarter kids take AIM in 6th, which is pre-algebra.

I guess you didn’t read the entire comment. If it’s about rushing that is propelled by stigma or wrong beliefs. People believe that getting to Algebra by 6th or 7th grade and definitely by 8th is the only path or their kid will be left behind. They believe that just because kids are doing well in math in 1st grade they should automatically be in the accelerated path and compacted math. Some people won’t even listen to teachers and administrators that their kid is on level or needs help even when the evidence is presented. Also teachers don’t really understand all the math concepts themselves, at least not at a depth that allows explaining in differently way depending on the student(for that point neither do a lot of parents).

The above starts in ES. As others have noted, not everyone needs to be in compacted math. Additionally, kids need more exposure to word problems and real world application of math.

For the smarter/advanced kids, they need to start in 7th if they are going to go to MCPS for high school as it impacts other classes they take. It's the same class either way. There are multiple levels in MS for kids of all needs but the discussion was comparing some of the "top" privates to MCPS and while they do have advanced classes, their math in MS is where they are lacking.

Agree some of the teachers don't understand it well enough to teach it but we've done private summer math classes and they ok to far worse than the MCPS ones. The ones that were better were the structured classes with a textbook and experienced teacher.

It's very easy to get higher MAP scores by working a bit ahead with workbooks with ES kids. It's harder once they hit Algebra or AIM if parents don't remember the math but once you get into AIM/Algebra the MAP scores don't matter as you already are on the track.

Most privates have one - two choice classes each grade level for math at best. So, MCPS wins in MS for differentiation. I looked at privates in ES and most didn't offer differentiation, a few promised extra but I doubt they did it.

But, the real issue comes with the advanced kids in MCPS with higher level classes as they all work together. Often the private school kids will take geometry in summer school to catch up to take the higher level science classes. So, its something to think about when you are looking at MS.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not necessarily PP. I needed more time to get math. I needed my teacher to spend the majority of the class showing us how to solve problem. Then I needed the equivalent of another class to do some problems together and then on my own. Class didn't work that way so I'd go to my teacher at lunch to get this extra help. I had an excellent teacher for algebra 1 and 2.

Now everything is auto graded on the app's and the teachers don't review the assignments. They might get a dozen or so problems before they move on to the next topic. Teacher does a 5-10 minute lecture and then they work on problems. Then they have a lot of free classes for kids to do catch up on the assignments they didn't do. Its nothing like how we were taught.

This was at a private school. I sent my kid to a public ES and it left a lot to be desired so I switched him to a private school where he could get the help he needed (he needed help in math like I did).

And, that makes sense. We did private early on, left for MCPS, then looked at privates again but didn't find one that was the right fit/cost. If my child was struggling in academics I'd probably do private like we did early on as I don't think MCPS is good with kids who are doing ok but struggling as those are the ones who really get lost/not a lot of help. Or, even for mild special needs. Our ES focuses on the kids who have the most severe SN so the kids who still needed support/IEP's often didn't get what they needed for lack of staffing. Smart kids will do ok most anywhere.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And if your source is from 2019, it’s irrelevant. COVID revealed to a ton of parents how awful MCPS really is.

Moreover, only 17% of the people contacted for the 2019 survey responded.

https://moco360.media/2019/10/03/parents-pleased-with-mcps-survey-shows/

And yet they keep sending their kids to MCPS schools, while they themselves do little to affect any change or want to increase taxes to pay for their champagne wishes.

What choice do most of us have? Not everyone is wealthy or living in a "good" school district. The only "affordable" privates are Catholic schools and that's only for elementary. Only a few Catholic schools are remotely welcoming to non-Catholic/non-Christian families. The rest of us cannot afford $50-60K privates, and there are very few privates let alone non-religious ones.

And, the privates don't have the same math track come MS/HS.

Every private I’ve seen has MS/HS math tracks.

They aren't equal. Of course they have MS/HS math tracks but often Algebra isn't started till 8th, or even 9th, vs. MCPS is 6/7th grade.

And it’s been shown that pushing kids too fast in math isn’t always appropriate. It’s not as though MCPS kids are excelling in math; far from it. So this wouldn’t be what I brag about.

This! I have a friend who teaches math at a state university. He says it would be better if middle/high schools slowed down and spent more time on Algebra instead of pushing kids through at young ages. The number of remedial Math classes at his university is growing.

MCPS curriculum experts testified to this at the BOE meeting recently. Compacted math is leading to superficial and poor understanding of algebraic fundamentals.

Compacted math or AIM? I would think AIM is more the issue as compacted math is 4-5th. I didn't think compacted math was bad but it focused too much on strategies vs. doing actual problems and math facts (though math facts should be much younger).

I think they mentioned both? Basically, we're either cramming too much too soon or we're prioritizing rapid advancement in math or substantive understanding of the subject matter.

The issue was rushing to take Algebra and the stigma around not getting to it sooner instead of when a child is prepared, be that 7th,8th, or 9th grade.

It's not rushing and in MS, kids have a huge option of classes and they can start Algebra in 7-9th grades, some can start in 6th. Its not a once size fits all like your are making it. Most smarter kids take AIM in 6th, which is pre-algebra.

I guess you didn’t read the entire comment. If it’s about rushing that is propelled by stigma or wrong beliefs. People believe that getting to Algebra by 6th or 7th grade and definitely by 8th is the only path or their kid will be left behind. They believe that just because kids are doing well in math in 1st grade they should automatically be in the accelerated path and compacted math. Some people won’t even listen to teachers and administrators that their kid is on level or needs help even when the evidence is presented. Also teachers don’t really understand all the math concepts themselves, at least not at a depth that allows explaining in differently way depending on the student(for that point neither do a lot of parents).

The above starts in ES. As others have noted, not everyone needs to be in compacted math. Additionally, kids need more exposure to word problems and real world application of math.

For the smarter/advanced kids, they need to start in 7th if they are going to go to MCPS for high school as it impacts other classes they take. It's the same class either way. There are multiple levels in MS for kids of all needs but the discussion was comparing some of the "top" privates to MCPS and while they do have advanced classes, their math in MS is where they are lacking.

Agree some of the teachers don't understand it well enough to teach it but we've done private summer math classes and they ok to far worse than the MCPS ones. The ones that were better were the structured classes with a textbook and experienced teacher.

It's very easy to get higher MAP scores by working a bit ahead with workbooks with ES kids. It's harder once they hit Algebra or AIM if parents don't remember the math but once you get into AIM/Algebra the MAP scores don't matter as you already are on the track.

Most privates have one - two choice classes each grade level for math at best. So, MCPS wins in MS for differentiation. I looked at privates in ES and most didn't offer differentiation, a few promised extra but I doubt they did it.

But, the real issue comes with the advanced kids in MCPS with higher level classes as they all work together. Often the private school kids will take geometry in summer school to catch up to take the higher level science classes. So, its something to think about when you are looking at MS.

1. Private schools absolutely have different math tracks in MS.

2. You have yet to post any evidence of your claim that private school kids end up behind in math in HS.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And if your source is from 2019, it’s irrelevant. COVID revealed to a ton of parents how awful MCPS really is.

Moreover, only 17% of the people contacted for the 2019 survey responded.

https://moco360.media/2019/10/03/parents-pleased-with-mcps-survey-shows/

And yet they keep sending their kids to MCPS schools, while they themselves do little to affect any change or want to increase taxes to pay for their champagne wishes.

What choice do most of us have? Not everyone is wealthy or living in a "good" school district. The only "affordable" privates are Catholic schools and that's only for elementary. Only a few Catholic schools are remotely welcoming to non-Catholic/non-Christian families. The rest of us cannot afford $50-60K privates, and there are very few privates let alone non-religious ones.

And, the privates don't have the same math track come MS/HS.

Every private I’ve seen has MS/HS math tracks.

They aren't equal. Of course they have MS/HS math tracks but often Algebra isn't started till 8th, or even 9th, vs. MCPS is 6/7th grade.

And it’s been shown that pushing kids too fast in math isn’t always appropriate. It’s not as though MCPS kids are excelling in math; far from it. So this wouldn’t be what I brag about.

This! I have a friend who teaches math at a state university. He says it would be better if middle/high schools slowed down and spent more time on Algebra instead of pushing kids through at young ages. The number of remedial Math classes at his university is growing.

MCPS curriculum experts testified to this at the BOE meeting recently. Compacted math is leading to superficial and poor understanding of algebraic fundamentals.

No. Compacted Math is not the issue. My kid went through Compacted Math and did great.

The issue is that too many students are placed in Compacted Math, when they should be in regular Math.

Another issue is that MCPS passes kids along even when they have not mastered the material.

There were SO many kids in DD’s Matt classes who should not have been accelerated and who could not keep up.

Keep Compacted Math for kids who can handle it.

Just because compacted math worked for your kid doesn’t mean it’s a good idea from a pedagogical standpoint.

I agree with the earlier poster that compacted math should be available for some, but with an acknowledgment that it’s not the best choice for everyone.

Of course rushing kids through math is bad pedagogy. They should be given time to master concepts and practice them. However, once a child has learned something, I don’t see what the pedagogical advantage is in refusing to teach them anything else for some predetermined interval.

The important thing is that kids learn the material. Time is not the only variable in that process. The content children are exposed to, how it is presented, and the children themselves are just some of the other variables involved in the process. Regardless of how many hours they sit in a math classroom, they can only learn material they’re taught.

For example:

In 1st grade, as differentiation for advanced students, they offered advanced problems on the back of the regularly assigned homework. Giving a kid a worksheet with the instruction to put in the correct > or < symbol without mentioning that those symbols represent greater than or less than is never going to work. Of course advanced students aren’t automatically going to know this. You could keep students in the class for 10 years, and they might eventually through trial and error figure out what you wanted, but I wouldn’t call it good pedagogy. Or you could actually teach the concept and move on.

Similarly, I was frequently frustrated by MCPS’s emphasis on calculator use. I told my kids they weren’t allowed to use calculators on homework without checking with me first. When DD told me they had a worksheet where they had to get square roots, it seemed like a calculator might be necessary, until I looked at the assignment. With problems like (sqrt 3) + (sqrt 27), she could have punched those numbers into a calculator and obtained a correct answer, while entirely missing the lesson. Knowing how to SIMPLIFY the problem is a much more valuable lesson. She could have filled out countless worksheets for years with the decimal answers to square roots that her calculator spit out, without ever learning how to actually work with radicals. On the other hand, once she had mastered working with radicals (fully understanding the concept, being able to employ it with ease, and had it solidly fixed in her memory), continuing to repeat the same lesson instead of using it to progress to the next level serves no purpose other than to frustrate and discourage.

I think good pedagogy is to give students the right amount of time. For some, this may mean compacted math (or even more acceleration), for others it may mean a slower math progression, perhaps even with additional instructional time with a double period, summer school, or tutoring. Every kid is different, so expecting them to learn at the same rate seems not only like bad pedagogy, but as something that is blatantly illogical.

I think we should have a wide variety of math classes and provide supports to help students succeed at their level and progress to the next level. Flexible ability grouping is not tracking. I don’t believe in gate keeping, but I also don’t believe in lowering standards. I don’t think our goal should be to go at any particular pace nor to get all the same students to the same place at the same time. I think the goal should be to teach all students what they need to know, and enable them to learn as much beyond that as they want.

SO well said. Thank you for taking be time to write all this out.

I’ll add that I think the priority in education should be to demonstrate that kids are improving. Versus focusing on ‘closing the achievement gap’ or focusing on every kid reaching the same goal.

SN kids should show improvement. Higher achieving kids should show improvement. ESOL kids should show improvement.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:And if your source is from 2019, it’s irrelevant. COVID revealed to a ton of parents how awful MCPS really is.

Moreover, only 17% of the people contacted for the 2019 survey responded.

https://moco360.media/2019/10/03/parents-pleased-with-mcps-survey-shows/

And yet they keep sending their kids to MCPS schools, while they themselves do little to affect any change or want to increase taxes to pay for their champagne wishes.

What choice do most of us have? Not everyone is wealthy or living in a "good" school district. The only "affordable" privates are Catholic schools and that's only for elementary. Only a few Catholic schools are remotely welcoming to non-Catholic/non-Christian families. The rest of us cannot afford $50-60K privates, and there are very few privates let alone non-religious ones.

And, the privates don't have the same math track come MS/HS.

Every private I’ve seen has MS/HS math tracks.

They aren't equal. Of course they have MS/HS math tracks but often Algebra isn't started till 8th, or even 9th, vs. MCPS is 6/7th grade.

And it’s been shown that pushing kids too fast in math isn’t always appropriate. It’s not as though MCPS kids are excelling in math; far from it. So this wouldn’t be what I brag about.

This! I have a friend who teaches math at a state university. He says it would be better if middle/high schools slowed down and spent more time on Algebra instead of pushing kids through at young ages. The number of remedial Math classes at his university is growing.

MCPS curriculum experts testified to this at the BOE meeting recently. Compacted math is leading to superficial and poor understanding of algebraic fundamentals.

No. Compacted Math is not the issue. My kid went through Compacted Math and did great.

The issue is that too many students are placed in Compacted Math, when they should be in regular Math.

Another issue is that MCPS passes kids along even when they have not mastered the material.

There were SO many kids in DD’s Matt classes who should not have been accelerated and who could not keep up.

Keep Compacted Math for kids who can handle it.

Just because compacted math worked for your kid doesn’t mean it’s a good idea from a pedagogical standpoint.

I agree with the earlier poster that compacted math should be available for some, but with an acknowledgment that it’s not the best choice for everyone.

Of course rushing kids through math is bad pedagogy. They should be given time to master concepts and practice them. However, once a child has learned something, I don’t see what the pedagogical advantage is in refusing to teach them anything else for some predetermined interval.

The important thing is that kids learn the material. Time is not the only variable in that process. The content children are exposed to, how it is presented, and the children themselves are just some of the other variables involved in the process. Regardless of how many hours they sit in a math classroom, they can only learn material they’re taught.

For example:

In 1st grade, as differentiation for advanced students, they offered advanced problems on the back of the regularly assigned homework. Giving a kid a worksheet with the instruction to put in the correct > or < symbol without mentioning that those symbols represent greater than or less than is never going to work. Of course advanced students aren’t automatically going to know this. You could keep students in the class for 10 years, and they might eventually through trial and error figure out what you wanted, but I wouldn’t call it good pedagogy. Or you could actually teach the concept and move on.

Similarly, I was frequently frustrated by MCPS’s emphasis on calculator use. I told my kids they weren’t allowed to use calculators on homework without checking with me first. When DD told me they had a worksheet where they had to get square roots, it seemed like a calculator might be necessary, until I looked at the assignment. With problems like (sqrt 3) + (sqrt 27), she could have punched those numbers into a calculator and obtained a correct answer, while entirely missing the lesson. Knowing how to SIMPLIFY the problem is a much more valuable lesson. She could have filled out countless worksheets for years with the decimal answers to square roots that her calculator spit out, without ever learning how to actually work with radicals. On the other hand, once she had mastered working with radicals (fully understanding the concept, being able to employ it with ease, and had it solidly fixed in her memory), continuing to repeat the same lesson instead of using it to progress to the next level serves no purpose other than to frustrate and discourage.

I think good pedagogy is to give students the right amount of time. For some, this may mean compacted math (or even more acceleration), for others it may mean a slower math progression, perhaps even with additional instructional time with a double period, summer school, or tutoring. Every kid is different, so expecting them to learn at the same rate seems not only like bad pedagogy, but as something that is blatantly illogical.

I think we should have a wide variety of math classes and provide supports to help students succeed at their level and progress to the next level. Flexible ability grouping is not tracking. I don’t believe in gate keeping, but I also don’t believe in lowering standards. I don’t think our goal should be to go at any particular pace nor to get all the same students to the same place at the same time. I think the goal should be to teach all students what they need to know, and enable them to learn as much beyond that as they want.

MCPS offers a variety starting in MS. In ES, most ES don't do any differentiation until compacted math in 4/5, which is technically ok but they need to focus on math facts and foundation work vs. strategies. We heavily supplemented at home with workbooks. The homework was a joke and not related in any way to what was learned in class and now in MS/HS classes there is very little homework for reinforcement and at best they just do a few problems in class. The new style teaching doesn't really work. They never ever review the assignments so if a child doesn't get it right, they have no idea where they went wrong.

MCPS had offered free tutoring for the past two years. So, that was a huge help to many of us in terms of making sure our kids understood the material.

It’s pathetic that many kids needed tutoring to understand the material. That’s clearly a teaching issue.

Agree. The kids should be learning IN school. Tutors should not be required.

Like the PP said, it’s a curriculum issue, for sure.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not necessarily PP. I needed more time to get math. I needed my teacher to spend the majority of the class showing us how to solve problem. Then I needed the equivalent of another class to do some problems together and then on my own. Class didn't work that way so I'd go to my teacher at lunch to get this extra help. I had an excellent teacher for algebra 1 and 2.

Now everything is auto graded on the app's and the teachers don't review the assignments. They might get a dozen or so problems before they move on to the next topic. Teacher does a 5-10 minute lecture and then they work on problems. Then they have a lot of free classes for kids to do catch up on the assignments they didn't do. Its nothing like how we were taught.

This was at a private school. I sent my kid to a public ES and it left a lot to be desired so I switched him to a private school where he could get the help he needed (he needed help in math like I did).

And, that makes sense. We did private early on, left for MCPS, then looked at privates again but didn't find one that was the right fit/cost. If my child was struggling in academics I'd probably do private like we did early on as I don't think MCPS is good with kids who are doing ok but struggling as those are the ones who really get lost/not a lot of help. Or, even for mild special needs. Our ES focuses on the kids who have the most severe SN so the kids who still needed support/IEP's often didn't get what they needed for lack of staffing. Smart kids will do ok most anywhere.

You hit the nail on the head. My gifted DS has done fine..his writing is not as good as it could be but it's sufficient- I have barely worked with him. My DD on the other hand who is above average intellectually but has some learning and attention issues is getting a subpar education. The school could care less because she is not severe in their eyes and so she gets very limited meaningful support at school. It is a constant effort on my behalf to make sure she has functional academic skills. I should not have to hire a lawyer and advocate and have her privately evaluated. I shouldn't have to constantly tutor her. If I didn't intervene, I doubt she would be reading and writing at all - hypothetically, if I hadn't done anything, by 4th grade when she would be 2 years below grade level- maybe mcps would give her an IEP and give her a couple hours of weekly support- she would basically be behind forever, feel like she was not smart, and the neural pathways for reading would close- and it would be that much harder to teach her each successive year. So I do this shitty juggling act. And it makes me really mad for all the other kids who don't have the resources to be able to do what I do for her.
Talk about inequity .

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not necessarily PP. I needed more time to get math. I needed my teacher to spend the majority of the class showing us how to solve problem. Then I needed the equivalent of another class to do some problems together and then on my own. Class didn't work that way so I'd go to my teacher at lunch to get this extra help. I had an excellent teacher for algebra 1 and 2.

Now everything is auto graded on the app's and the teachers don't review the assignments. They might get a dozen or so problems before they move on to the next topic. Teacher does a 5-10 minute lecture and then they work on problems. Then they have a lot of free classes for kids to do catch up on the assignments they didn't do. Its nothing like how we were taught.

This was at a private school. I sent my kid to a public ES and it left a lot to be desired so I switched him to a private school where he could get the help he needed (he needed help in math like I did).

And, that makes sense. We did private early on, left for MCPS, then looked at privates again but didn't find one that was the right fit/cost. If my child was struggling in academics I'd probably do private like we did early on as I don't think MCPS is good with kids who are doing ok but struggling as those are the ones who really get lost/not a lot of help. Or, even for mild special needs. Our ES focuses on the kids who have the most severe SN so the kids who still needed support/IEP's often didn't get what they needed for lack of staffing. Smart kids will do ok most anywhere.

You hit the nail on the head. My gifted DS has done fine..his writing is not as good as it could be but it's sufficient- I have barely worked with him. My DD on the other hand who is above average intellectually but has some learning and attention issues is getting a subpar education. The school could care less because she is not severe in their eyes and so she gets very limited meaningful support at school. It is a constant effort on my behalf to make sure she has functional academic skills. I should not have to hire a lawyer and advocate and have her privately evaluated. I shouldn't have to constantly tutor her. If I didn't intervene, I doubt she would be reading and writing at all - hypothetically, if I hadn't done anything, by 4th grade when she would be 2 years below grade level- maybe mcps would give her an IEP and give her a couple hours of weekly support- she would basically be behind forever, feel like she was not smart, and the neural pathways for reading would close- and it would be that much harder to teach her each successive year. So I do this shitty juggling act. And it makes me really mad for all the other kids who don't have the resources to be able to do what I do for her.
Talk about inequity .

Sadly you are probably better off with paying for tutoring/supports vs. hiring a lawyer. Even if you have a good IEP, most aren't worth the paper they are written on (if you are lucky enough to even get a copy) and they aren't going to provide to your child's particular needs. At best she might get a bit of reading help but it would be group reading with a mixed group of kids with very different needs. They do a lousy job of teaching and handling reading issues and reading issues should be caught in K-1st and those kids should get a huge amount of help as reading impacts every other subject and they will just keep falling further behind because of the reading struggles. Forget fighting them, have her evaluated and get a tutor, if you can afford it and supplement yourself. If they haven't helped by now they aren't going to.

The schools we have been at do a huge focus on writing but not reading comprehension. The reading is a joke and at best they read a few books a year. No grammar, no spelling, no vocabulary.