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Midwife charged in DC? Karen Carr, CPM...
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Anonymous
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How can potential home birthing parents find out the stats of a potential home birth midwife? Are they reported anywhere?
People have alleged that Karen has lost other babies, both here and on the WP site. One poster claimed it was 9 babies just recently. I suppose if there were not prosecution it's possible but that sounds like a high number. Can anyone address that? Someone else alleged that Karen used a birth assistant to do cervical checks and fetal tone monitoring and arrived close to delivery. Any idea if that was the case with this mom? Not sure if that would matter with entrapment though, unless she wasn't in the room at the time? Hard to believe that. Finally, does anyone know if these parents were considering unassisted home birth as an alternative? Hard to believe with a breech baby and as a first time mom, but wondering if Karen "saved them from themselves" as someone suggested. |
Anonymous
CPMs, that do most homebirths in the US, aren't required to have university degrees. CNMs, who generally work in hospitals/birth centers but can also do homebirths, have Masters degrees. |
Anonymous
Except she didn't. The letter above didn't come from Carr's lawyer. Others were named and/or described quite specifically and it apparently came from a lawyer for one of those other people. |
Anonymous
As far as I know they're not reported anywhere, which is kind of a problem. A midwife can have horrible numbers but still have plenty of pleased clients who can recruit new families since disasters don't happen all that often. From reading homebirth death stories on the internet it seems that many people with bad outcomes have become so attached to their midwives that they can't believe that the midwife could have done anything wrong and don't want to cause problems for them (the "the baby would have died in the hospital too" argument). That's why having some good statistics and research about homebirth outcomes would be great- if it's really that safe, everybody can see the numbers, and if it's not all that safe, maybe some new training and guidelines could start making it safer. |
Anonymous
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"35 years ago, my OB said I needed to deliver strapped to a delivery room table. He said if my arms and legs were free, I might hurt myself or the baby during delivery. When I was born, my mother was in a "twilight" sleep and has no memory of my birth. I hope everyone today thinks these ideas are nonsense. I went against medical advice and made an informed decision to have my children in a place where I could lie down, walk around, squat, whatever I needed. If the medical establishment would have fewer absolutes, as in "all breech babies must be delivered by cesarean" and performed cesareans only when medically necessary, perhaps mothers would have more trust in today's medical advice."
From the Washington post comments. Imagine what is being done in hospitals right now that we'll look back on in a decade and say they were crazy. |
Anonymous
wow. interesting. thank you for posting. |
Anonymous
| Wow... I've read this entire thread since the beginning and I don't remember anyone other than Karen being mentioned specifically. In fact, many have asked who the other attendants were and no one answered. |
Anonymous
WHY are people going on about this "disheartening" investigation and rushing in to blindly support Karen? Shouldn't people instead be eagerly awaiting the outcome of the investigation so they can see what errors were made and then keep those errors from happening again in the homebirth community? Shouldn't people be talking about criteria for homebirth, and that maybe some women just shouldn't give birth at home? Shouldn't people be demanding licensed, accountable professionals to take care of mothers and babies? If a death occurred in any other medical setting, I guarantee that the first public outcry wouldn't be about what a "disheartening" investigation it was, and about how the government is wrong to license people who are medical professionals, and about what a nice person that doctor/nurse is. People would be demanding accountability for mistakes, and if no mistakes were made, they would still be happy that an investigation took place to explain the event. This stuff really makes me question the professionalism of the homebirth community. Professionals have to be accountable, and all of this wailing about how unfair this is to Karen is really missing the point that a baby died, and that needs to be explained. |
Anonymous
Well I think the woman who started the foundation probably knows more about the facts of the case than we do. And you could argue the same for those who have posted her condemning Karen. Bottom line - if you weren't there through the whole process of deciding where to birth and the actual birth, then really you have no idea whose fault this is (if indeed it is anyone's fault at all). I feel like the anti-HB people on this thread were just as quick to jump on this case as proof that the choice to birth at home should be seriously restricted. |
Anonymous
This is because if a baby dies during a homebirth and the baby was breech, then things can go wrong that the midwife has no control over. So what this comes down to (most likely) is not negligence or malpractice but a question of whether or not it should be legal for a parent to decide to have a breech baby or any other baby at home with the assistance of a CPM. My opinion is that it should be legal for pregnant women to make these choices for themselves. Personally, I wouldn't do it but the government should not dictate our birth choices or our medical choices. |
Anonymous
I didn't say that it's someone's fault. I said that calling the investigation "disheartening" and acting like homebirth midwives can do whatever they want, wherever they want, unlike every other licensed professional in the country, says a lot about the priorities of this homebirth community. All I see is a quick response of "Oh, she's so nice, this is a witch hunt, they're taking away women's choices!" instead of the more measured response one would expect after the death of a baby. What quality control measures are CPMs reviewing after this case? How are they addressing this bad outcome? How will they prevent similar bad outcomes from happening? How do they deal with midwives who have several deaths? I haven't seen one person from the "homebirth side" say a thing about any of that. All I see is "Well, the mom assumed the risk and the responsibility when she chose a homebirth." If that's true, then why have the midwife at all? You can't say that you're for women and then make a point of never reviewing the quality of the care you're providing- that just doesn't compute at all. |
Anonymous
Many people are on the inside, especially in certain midwifery and birth advocacy circles, and actually do know the specifics of the case. Many of them have birthed with Karen and worked with Karen as assistants, apprentices, or doulas, so they have seen first hand how she does things. Many also do not believe state licensing to be helpful or desired when it comes to lay midwives. I agree that no one would be talking about a "disheartening" investigation from a bad medical outcome, but then again the medical profession is rife with conflicting interests AND that medical professional would not be facing criminal charges. Babies die all the time in our local hospitals, yet where is the criminal prosecution of the doctors who were involved? |
Anonymous
Birth assistants are different from doulas. A birth assistant is a monitrice or someone who can carry out clinical tasks such as checking fetal heart tones, palpation, and cervical exams. Most midwives use birth assistants to act as their nurses (they chart, as well) and some families hire doulas in addition to their BA and midwife (it sounds like maybe this family did just that). BirthCare, for example, has birth assistant that are hired independently from the midwives, by the families, to assist the midwives and them (clinically) during their labor. The family may require the use of a doula (non-clinical role, if practicing within their orgs scope of practice) before a BA even gets to them. Other homebirth midwives I know in the area have midwife assistants which are the same as birth assistants. They do the clinical "stuff" before the midwife gets there. I don't know the answer to any of your other questions though 
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Anonymous
Of course a pregnant woman can do whatever she wants with her body. The FBI isn't storming in to force her to go to the hospital. At the same time, I can't set up a cardiac catheterization lab in my living room and offer services to people, and then say that it's not my fault when I have a bad outcome. Why wasn't Karen licensed? Why can a midwife act with zero oversight from a licensing body when professionals with much less risky jobs (hair sylists...) must be licensed? Why is it such a horrible thing to figure out which types of births are safe at home and which aren't? Are the 45-year-old GBS+ mom of triplets and the 26-year-old who's already had a successful vaginal delivery really both good candidates for homebirth? Why is the mere mention of standards and guidelines so scary? |