How does one prep place account for 25% of TJ Admissions?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I would not call any kid who scores well on the TJ exam, with or without prep, mediocre. The kids who are prepping are working hard to learn challenging material in order to do well on the test. That is impressive on its own. I can question if the kid is there because the kid really wants it or there because the parent really wants it but I will not question the effort and intelligence of a kid who does well on that exam.

I would imagine any kid that applied themselves to a year long prep class would apply themselves to their class work and do just fine at TJ.

I did not get how much math classes can be fun for a kid. I thought you all were crazy but this year we offered DS the choice to take AoPS classes or not. He decided to give the math a go and is loving it. I don't get it but I am not a math person. I was a history and social studies geek and loved working as a tour guide at the State House and participating in Government based programs in MS and HS so I don't know why the math class love is so foreign to me. We are actually working with some other interested families in starting a STEM Scouts program next year.

I think we can discuss admissions and test or no test without questioning the kids intelligence or ability. The conversation, for me, is identifying kids with similar intelligence and ability in underrepresented communities and providing them with the opportunity to attend TJ and shine. It would be nice if they could expand the class size at TJ to include the top 2% students from the underrepresented schools and not impact the current numbers. It sounds like TJ has the space for more students.

Maybe not with TJ but with other prep courses, the students can truly be mediocre and excel at the SAT or other standardized test directly as a result of paying for prep. There is a clear unfair advantage. Regarding TJ, yes all kids should be provided equal opportunities beginning in elementary school, there are bright capable students everywhere, they just need to be identified.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I would not call any kid who scores well on the TJ exam, with or without prep, mediocre. The kids who are prepping are working hard to learn challenging material in order to do well on the test. That is impressive on its own. I can question if the kid is there because the kid really wants it or there because the parent really wants it but I will not question the effort and intelligence of a kid who does well on that exam.

I would imagine any kid that applied themselves to a year long prep class would apply themselves to their class work and do just fine at TJ.

I did not get how much math classes can be fun for a kid. I thought you all were crazy but this year we offered DS the choice to take AoPS classes or not. He decided to give the math a go and is loving it. I don't get it but I am not a math person. I was a history and social studies geek and loved working as a tour guide at the State House and participating in Government based programs in MS and HS so I don't know why the math class love is so foreign to me. We are actually working with some other interested families in starting a STEM Scouts program next year.

I think we can discuss admissions and test or no test without questioning the kids intelligence or ability. The conversation, for me, is identifying kids with similar intelligence and ability in underrepresented communities and providing them with the opportunity to attend TJ and shine. It would be nice if they could expand the class size at TJ to include the top 2% students from the underrepresented schools and not impact the current numbers. It sounds like TJ has the space for more students.

TJ's Class of 2025 is expected to be 550, as opposed to 480. The school can absolutely handle a higher volume with no difficulty. 2200 should be just fine a few years down the road, and will make a huge difference in the school's offerings outside of the STEM realm.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Many schools had moved away from the SAT to the ACT and were starting to drop both tests before the COVID pandemic. I would expect that more schools will stop asking for SAT or ACT scores after the Pandemic. Everyone is well aware of the prep options and how the tests can be cheated. There is too much evidence that the tests are not testing what they claim to be testing and that they are easily prepared for so the scores are artificially inflated.

While there is free prep material for pretty much every test, that still requires knowledge of a program and some encouragement for most people, especially kids who are in Middle School. Realistically speaking, kids in Title I schools and near Title I schools are less likely to have knowledge that TJ exists or what they need to do to attend TJ. Their parents are likely to not be as informed or have an idea about what resources exist, free or paid.

There is a ton of anecdotal evidence and research that shows that the academic focus of Asian families, from pretty much every area of Asia, leads to parents who emphasis education, regardless of income, and seeking out opportunities for their kids. There is a long cultural history of valuing education and examples of how education, and tests, led to families changing their fortunes. This historical, cultural valuation of education seems to be unique to many Asian cultures. I am not a historian but have never had a Professor lecture on the use of merit based tests to hire people into government positions in Europe, South American, North American, or African cultures. The classes I took on Chinese History spent a lot of time discussing this subject.

There is nothing wrong with valuing education, that is a great thing. I totally get why the exam is important to folks.

What we need to do is find a way to reach out to kids in lesser performing schools and provide STEM opportunities that might engage a kid and help them decide that it makes sense to focus on school. Free after school robotics programs or coding programs that are 1-2 hours long in the ES. The parents will see them as free child care and it could help provide a more engaging introduction into STEM. Maybe have 2 days were the extra curricular are sports based and 3 days were the offerings are STEM based. Parents would have an incentive for their kids to participate, child care, and maybe it triggers some interest and drive in the kids.

Realistically, we are not going to be able to do much about this problem as long as parents are not engaged in their kids education. For many poor parents there is little time to put into their kids education because of the number of jobs being worked and other stressors. For many immigrant families, the basic education at FCPS is going to be massively better then what their kid would have received in their home country. There are systemic factors at play that are hard to fix. [/quote

Define "many schools." I do not believe that is accurate of the pre-Covid landscape.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Many schools had moved away from the SAT to the ACT and were starting to drop both tests before the COVID pandemic. I would expect that more schools will stop asking for SAT or ACT scores after the Pandemic. Everyone is well aware of the prep options and how the tests can be cheated. There is too much evidence that the tests are not testing what they claim to be testing and that they are easily prepared for so the scores are artificially inflated.

While there is free prep material for pretty much every test, that still requires knowledge of a program and some encouragement for most people, especially kids who are in Middle School. Realistically speaking, kids in Title I schools and near Title I schools are less likely to have knowledge that TJ exists or what they need to do to attend TJ. Their parents are likely to not be as informed or have an idea about what resources exist, free or paid.

There is a ton of anecdotal evidence and research that shows that the academic focus of Asian families, from pretty much every area of Asia, leads to parents who emphasis education, regardless of income, and seeking out opportunities for their kids. There is a long cultural history of valuing education and examples of how education, and tests, led to families changing their fortunes. This historical, cultural valuation of education seems to be unique to many Asian cultures. I am not a historian but have never had a Professor lecture on the use of merit based tests to hire people into government positions in Europe, South American, North American, or African cultures. The classes I took on Chinese History spent a lot of time discussing this subject.

There is nothing wrong with valuing education, that is a great thing. I totally get why the exam is important to folks.

What we need to do is find a way to reach out to kids in lesser performing schools and provide STEM opportunities that might engage a kid and help them decide that it makes sense to focus on school. Free after school robotics programs or coding programs that are 1-2 hours long in the ES. The parents will see them as free child care and it could help provide a more engaging introduction into STEM. Maybe have 2 days were the extra curricular are sports based and 3 days were the offerings are STEM based. Parents would have an incentive for their kids to participate, child care, and maybe it triggers some interest and drive in the kids.

Realistically, we are not going to be able to do much about this problem as long as parents are not engaged in their kids education. For many poor parents there is little time to put into their kids education because of the number of jobs being worked and other stressors. For many immigrant families, the basic education at FCPS is going to be massively better then what their kid would have received in their home country. There are systemic factors at play that are hard to fix. [/quote

Define "many schools." I do not believe that is accurate of the pre-Covid landscape.

I taught at three universities in the 1990's and schools were switching to the ACT because it was suppose to have less of a racial bias in how the questions were written so it was deemed a better judge of ability then the SAT. Universities have been discussing dropping the SAT or ACT because of the cost of taking the exams and the prep-ability. The practice of "test-optional" applications has been growing across the country. You can choose to include your scores or not.

https://www.fairtest.org/university/optional A list of the 1,365 Universities that are test blind for this coming year.
https://www.fairtest.org/sites/default/files/Optional-Growth-Chronology.pdf A chronological list of the schools dropping the exams.

I do find it interesting that they don't have a list of Universities that were test-optional, that would be a much larger list.

If you look the chronological list, you will see that a good number of the schools dropping them for this year are aiming for a 2-3 year pilot study, which implies that they are seriously thinking about dropping the requirement.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Many schools had moved away from the SAT to the ACT and were starting to drop both tests before the COVID pandemic. I would expect that more schools will stop asking for SAT or ACT scores after the Pandemic. Everyone is well aware of the prep options and how the tests can be cheated. There is too much evidence that the tests are not testing what they claim to be testing and that they are easily prepared for so the scores are artificially inflated.

While there is free prep material for pretty much every test, that still requires knowledge of a program and some encouragement for most people, especially kids who are in Middle School. Realistically speaking, kids in Title I schools and near Title I schools are less likely to have knowledge that TJ exists or what they need to do to attend TJ. Their parents are likely to not be as informed or have an idea about what resources exist, free or paid.

There is a ton of anecdotal evidence and research that shows that the academic focus of Asian families, from pretty much every area of Asia, leads to parents who emphasis education, regardless of income, and seeking out opportunities for their kids. There is a long cultural history of valuing education and examples of how education, and tests, led to families changing their fortunes. This historical, cultural valuation of education seems to be unique to many Asian cultures. I am not a historian but have never had a Professor lecture on the use of merit based tests to hire people into government positions in Europe, South American, North American, or African cultures. The classes I took on Chinese History spent a lot of time discussing this subject.

There is nothing wrong with valuing education, that is a great thing. I totally get why the exam is important to folks.

What we need to do is find a way to reach out to kids in lesser performing schools and provide STEM opportunities that might engage a kid and help them decide that it makes sense to focus on school. Free after school robotics programs or coding programs that are 1-2 hours long in the ES. The parents will see them as free child care and it could help provide a more engaging introduction into STEM. Maybe have 2 days were the extra curricular are sports based and 3 days were the offerings are STEM based. Parents would have an incentive for their kids to participate, child care, and maybe it triggers some interest and drive in the kids.

Realistically, we are not going to be able to do much about this problem as long as parents are not engaged in their kids education. For many poor parents there is little time to put into their kids education because of the number of jobs being worked and other stressors. For many immigrant families, the basic education at FCPS is going to be massively better then what their kid would have received in their home country. There are systemic factors at play that are hard to fix. [/quote

Define "many schools." I do not believe that is accurate of the pre-Covid landscape.

I taught at three universities in the 1990's and schools were switching to the ACT because it was suppose to have less of a racial bias in how the questions were written so it was deemed a better judge of ability then the SAT. Universities have been discussing dropping the SAT or ACT because of the cost of taking the exams and the prep-ability. The practice of "test-optional" applications has been growing across the country. You can choose to include your scores or not.

https://www.fairtest.org/university/optional A list of the 1,365 Universities that are test blind for this coming year.
https://www.fairtest.org/sites/default/files/Optional-Growth-Chronology.pdf A chronological list of the schools dropping the exams.

I do find it interesting that they don't have a list of Universities that were test-optional, that would be a much larger list.

If you look the chronological list, you will see that a good number of the schools dropping them for this year are aiming for a 2-3 year pilot study, which implies that they are seriously thinking about dropping the requirement.

A lot of people on these forums are going to FREAK OUT when these schools report wild successes with these pilot programs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would not call any kid who scores well on the TJ exam, with or without prep, mediocre. The kids who are prepping are working hard to learn challenging material in order to do well on the test. That is impressive on its own. I can question if the kid is there because the kid really wants it or there because the parent really wants it but I will not question the effort and intelligence of a kid who does well on that exam.

I would imagine any kid that applied themselves to a year long prep class would apply themselves to their class work and do just fine at TJ.

I did not get how much math classes can be fun for a kid. I thought you all were crazy but this year we offered DS the choice to take AoPS classes or not. He decided to give the math a go and is loving it. I don't get it but I am not a math person. I was a history and social studies geek and loved working as a tour guide at the State House and participating in Government based programs in MS and HS so I don't know why the math class love is so foreign to me. We are actually working with some other interested families in starting a STEM Scouts program next year.

I think we can discuss admissions and test or no test without questioning the kids intelligence or ability. The conversation, for me, is identifying kids with similar intelligence and ability in underrepresented communities and providing them with the opportunity to attend TJ and shine. It would be nice if they could expand the class size at TJ to include the top 2% students from the underrepresented schools and not impact the current numbers. It sounds like TJ has the space for more students.

Maybe not with TJ but with other prep courses, the students can truly be mediocre and excel at the SAT or other standardized test directly as a result of paying for prep. There is a clear unfair advantage. Regarding TJ, yes all kids should be provided equal opportunities beginning in elementary school, there are bright capable students everywhere, they just need to be identified.

This "prep" for SAT making a real difference in scores myth has been debunked countless times. The SATs are unquestionably a good proxy for aptitude and success.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Many schools had moved away from the SAT to the ACT and were starting to drop both tests before the COVID pandemic. I would expect that more schools will stop asking for SAT or ACT scores after the Pandemic. Everyone is well aware of the prep options and how the tests can be cheated. There is too much evidence that the tests are not testing what they claim to be testing and that they are easily prepared for so the scores are artificially inflated.

While there is free prep material for pretty much every test, that still requires knowledge of a program and some encouragement for most people, especially kids who are in Middle School. Realistically speaking, kids in Title I schools and near Title I schools are less likely to have knowledge that TJ exists or what they need to do to attend TJ. Their parents are likely to not be as informed or have an idea about what resources exist, free or paid.

There is a ton of anecdotal evidence and research that shows that the academic focus of Asian families, from pretty much every area of Asia, leads to parents who emphasis education, regardless of income, and seeking out opportunities for their kids. There is a long cultural history of valuing education and examples of how education, and tests, led to families changing their fortunes. This historical, cultural valuation of education seems to be unique to many Asian cultures. I am not a historian but have never had a Professor lecture on the use of merit based tests to hire people into government positions in Europe, South American, North American, or African cultures. The classes I took on Chinese History spent a lot of time discussing this subject.

There is nothing wrong with valuing education, that is a great thing. I totally get why the exam is important to folks.

What we need to do is find a way to reach out to kids in lesser performing schools and provide STEM opportunities that might engage a kid and help them decide that it makes sense to focus on school. Free after school robotics programs or coding programs that are 1-2 hours long in the ES. The parents will see them as free child care and it could help provide a more engaging introduction into STEM. Maybe have 2 days were the extra curricular are sports based and 3 days were the offerings are STEM based. Parents would have an incentive for their kids to participate, child care, and maybe it triggers some interest and drive in the kids.

Realistically, we are not going to be able to do much about this problem as long as parents are not engaged in their kids education. For many poor parents there is little time to put into their kids education because of the number of jobs being worked and other stressors. For many immigrant families, the basic education at FCPS is going to be massively better then what their kid would have received in their home country. There are systemic factors at play that are hard to fix. [/quote

Define "many schools." I do not believe that is accurate of the pre-Covid landscape.

I taught at three universities in the 1990's and schools were switching to the ACT because it was suppose to have less of a racial bias in how the questions were written so it was deemed a better judge of ability then the SAT. Universities have been discussing dropping the SAT or ACT because of the cost of taking the exams and the prep-ability. The practice of "test-optional" applications has been growing across the country. You can choose to include your scores or not.

https://www.fairtest.org/university/optional A list of the 1,365 Universities that are test blind for this coming year.
https://www.fairtest.org/sites/default/files/Optional-Growth-Chronology.pdf A chronological list of the schools dropping the exams.

I do find it interesting that they don't have a list of Universities that were test-optional, that would be a much larger list.

If you look the chronological list, you will see that a good number of the schools dropping them for this year are aiming for a 2-3 year pilot study, which implies that they are seriously thinking about dropping the requirement.

That was the list of test optional schools. Read the title of the document.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Many schools had moved away from the SAT to the ACT and were starting to drop both tests before the COVID pandemic. I would expect that more schools will stop asking for SAT or ACT scores after the Pandemic. Everyone is well aware of the prep options and how the tests can be cheated. There is too much evidence that the tests are not testing what they claim to be testing and that they are easily prepared for so the scores are artificially inflated.

While there is free prep material for pretty much every test, that still requires knowledge of a program and some encouragement for most people, especially kids who are in Middle School. Realistically speaking, kids in Title I schools and near Title I schools are less likely to have knowledge that TJ exists or what they need to do to attend TJ. Their parents are likely to not be as informed or have an idea about what resources exist, free or paid.

There is a ton of anecdotal evidence and research that shows that the academic focus of Asian families, from pretty much every area of Asia, leads to parents who emphasis education, regardless of income, and seeking out opportunities for their kids. There is a long cultural history of valuing education and examples of how education, and tests, led to families changing their fortunes. This historical, cultural valuation of education seems to be unique to many Asian cultures. I am not a historian but have never had a Professor lecture on the use of merit based tests to hire people into government positions in Europe, South American, North American, or African cultures. The classes I took on Chinese History spent a lot of time discussing this subject.

There is nothing wrong with valuing education, that is a great thing. I totally get why the exam is important to folks.

What we need to do is find a way to reach out to kids in lesser performing schools and provide STEM opportunities that might engage a kid and help them decide that it makes sense to focus on school. Free after school robotics programs or coding programs that are 1-2 hours long in the ES. The parents will see them as free child care and it could help provide a more engaging introduction into STEM. Maybe have 2 days were the extra curricular are sports based and 3 days were the offerings are STEM based. Parents would have an incentive for their kids to participate, child care, and maybe it triggers some interest and drive in the kids.

Realistically, we are not going to be able to do much about this problem as long as parents are not engaged in their kids education. For many poor parents there is little time to put into their kids education because of the number of jobs being worked and other stressors. For many immigrant families, the basic education at FCPS is going to be massively better then what their kid would have received in their home country. There are systemic factors at play that are hard to fix. [/quote

Define "many schools." I do not believe that is accurate of the pre-Covid landscape.

I taught at three universities in the 1990's and schools were switching to the ACT because it was suppose to have less of a racial bias in how the questions were written so it was deemed a better judge of ability then the SAT. Universities have been discussing dropping the SAT or ACT because of the cost of taking the exams and the prep-ability. The practice of "test-optional" applications has been growing across the country. You can choose to include your scores or not.

https://www.fairtest.org/university/optional A list of the 1,365 Universities that are test blind for this coming year.
https://www.fairtest.org/sites/default/files/Optional-Growth-Chronology.pdf A chronological list of the schools dropping the exams.

I do find it interesting that they don't have a list of Universities that were test-optional, that would be a much larger list.

If you look the chronological list, you will see that a good number of the schools dropping them for this year are aiming for a 2-3 year pilot study, which implies that they are seriously thinking about dropping the requirement.

If you really taught at 3 universities, you should be able to concede that SAT scores are typically a good indicator of future performance in the classroom as well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Many schools had moved away from the SAT to the ACT and were starting to drop both tests before the COVID pandemic. I would expect that more schools will stop asking for SAT or ACT scores after the Pandemic. Everyone is well aware of the prep options and how the tests can be cheated. There is too much evidence that the tests are not testing what they claim to be testing and that they are easily prepared for so the scores are artificially inflated.

While there is free prep material for pretty much every test, that still requires knowledge of a program and some encouragement for most people, especially kids who are in Middle School. Realistically speaking, kids in Title I schools and near Title I schools are less likely to have knowledge that TJ exists or what they need to do to attend TJ. Their parents are likely to not be as informed or have an idea about what resources exist, free or paid.

There is a ton of anecdotal evidence and research that shows that the academic focus of Asian families, from pretty much every area of Asia, leads to parents who emphasis education, regardless of income, and seeking out opportunities for their kids. There is a long cultural history of valuing education and examples of how education, and tests, led to families changing their fortunes. This historical, cultural valuation of education seems to be unique to many Asian cultures. I am not a historian but have never had a Professor lecture on the use of merit based tests to hire people into government positions in Europe, South American, North American, or African cultures. The classes I took on Chinese History spent a lot of time discussing this subject.

There is nothing wrong with valuing education, that is a great thing. I totally get why the exam is important to folks.

What we need to do is find a way to reach out to kids in lesser performing schools and provide STEM opportunities that might engage a kid and help them decide that it makes sense to focus on school. Free after school robotics programs or coding programs that are 1-2 hours long in the ES. The parents will see them as free child care and it could help provide a more engaging introduction into STEM. Maybe have 2 days were the extra curricular are sports based and 3 days were the offerings are STEM based. Parents would have an incentive for their kids to participate, child care, and maybe it triggers some interest and drive in the kids.

Realistically, we are not going to be able to do much about this problem as long as parents are not engaged in their kids education. For many poor parents there is little time to put into their kids education because of the number of jobs being worked and other stressors. For many immigrant families, the basic education at FCPS is going to be massively better then what their kid would have received in their home country. There are systemic factors at play that are hard to fix. [/quote

Define "many schools." I do not believe that is accurate of the pre-Covid landscape.

I taught at three universities in the 1990's and schools were switching to the ACT because it was suppose to have less of a racial bias in how the questions were written so it was deemed a better judge of ability then the SAT. Universities have been discussing dropping the SAT or ACT because of the cost of taking the exams and the prep-ability. The practice of "test-optional" applications has been growing across the country. You can choose to include your scores or not.

https://www.fairtest.org/university/optional A list of the 1,365 Universities that are test blind for this coming year.
https://www.fairtest.org/sites/default/files/Optional-Growth-Chronology.pdf A chronological list of the schools dropping the exams.

I do find it interesting that they don't have a list of Universities that were test-optional, that would be a much larger list.

If you look the chronological list, you will see that a good number of the schools dropping them for this year are aiming for a 2-3 year pilot study, which implies that they are seriously thinking about dropping the requirement.

If you really taught at 3 universities, you should be able to concede that SAT scores are typically a good indicator of future performance in the classroom as well.

I believe the point was that the scores are over-emphasized and you miss out on a lot of students that would be great for the student body.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Many schools had moved away from the SAT to the ACT and were starting to drop both tests before the COVID pandemic. I would expect that more schools will stop asking for SAT or ACT scores after the Pandemic. Everyone is well aware of the prep options and how the tests can be cheated. There is too much evidence that the tests are not testing what they claim to be testing and that they are easily prepared for so the scores are artificially inflated.

While there is free prep material for pretty much every test, that still requires knowledge of a program and some encouragement for most people, especially kids who are in Middle School. Realistically speaking, kids in Title I schools and near Title I schools are less likely to have knowledge that TJ exists or what they need to do to attend TJ. Their parents are likely to not be as informed or have an idea about what resources exist, free or paid.

There is a ton of anecdotal evidence and research that shows that the academic focus of Asian families, from pretty much every area of Asia, leads to parents who emphasis education, regardless of income, and seeking out opportunities for their kids. There is a long cultural history of valuing education and examples of how education, and tests, led to families changing their fortunes. This historical, cultural valuation of education seems to be unique to many Asian cultures. I am not a historian but have never had a Professor lecture on the use of merit based tests to hire people into government positions in Europe, South American, North American, or African cultures. The classes I took on Chinese History spent a lot of time discussing this subject.

There is nothing wrong with valuing education, that is a great thing. I totally get why the exam is important to folks.

What we need to do is find a way to reach out to kids in lesser performing schools and provide STEM opportunities that might engage a kid and help them decide that it makes sense to focus on school. Free after school robotics programs or coding programs that are 1-2 hours long in the ES. The parents will see them as free child care and it could help provide a more engaging introduction into STEM. Maybe have 2 days were the extra curricular are sports based and 3 days were the offerings are STEM based. Parents would have an incentive for their kids to participate, child care, and maybe it triggers some interest and drive in the kids.

Realistically, we are not going to be able to do much about this problem as long as parents are not engaged in their kids education. For many poor parents there is little time to put into their kids education because of the number of jobs being worked and other stressors. For many immigrant families, the basic education at FCPS is going to be massively better then what their kid would have received in their home country. There are systemic factors at play that are hard to fix. [/quote

Define "many schools." I do not believe that is accurate of the pre-Covid landscape.

I taught at three universities in the 1990's and schools were switching to the ACT because it was suppose to have less of a racial bias in how the questions were written so it was deemed a better judge of ability then the SAT. Universities have been discussing dropping the SAT or ACT because of the cost of taking the exams and the prep-ability. The practice of "test-optional" applications has been growing across the country. You can choose to include your scores or not.

https://www.fairtest.org/university/optional A list of the 1,365 Universities that are test blind for this coming year.
https://www.fairtest.org/sites/default/files/Optional-Growth-Chronology.pdf A chronological list of the schools dropping the exams.

I do find it interesting that they don't have a list of Universities that were test-optional, that would be a much larger list.

If you look the chronological list, you will see that a good number of the schools dropping them for this year are aiming for a 2-3 year pilot study, which implies that they are seriously thinking about dropping the requirement.

If you really taught at 3 universities, you should be able to concede that SAT scores are typically a good indicator of future performance in the classroom as well.

As someone with learning disabilities, I would say the SAT, ACT, GRE and the like are not a good indicator of future performance. Those tests never measured my actual abilities. Thankfully, my Graduate Program ignored my GRE scores, they were truly horrific, and accepted me without funding. I earned my TA and RA positions by the end of my first semester and my PhD. The Program was happy to have me based on my performance but I would normally not have been considered because my test scores were so low. My letters of recommendations were excellent. Two of my Professors called out my LDs in my letters and used them as an example of my willingness to study harder then most students and to apply myself in areas that challenged me. It was those letters and my grades that led to Graduate School.

Not to mention, the exams have also been shown to have a very real cultural bias that hurt underrepresented minorities and people in lower socioeconomic categories.

Yeah, I am fine with them dropping the standardized exams. AP and IB exams do a fine job of demonstrating what type of abilities a student has and pretty much everyone taking them is taking classes to prepare them for the exams. I have graded the AP exams and am pretty comfortable with how those exams are prepared for, given, and graded in terms of providing an equal footing to everyone taking the exams.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Many schools had moved away from the SAT to the ACT and were starting to drop both tests before the COVID pandemic. I would expect that more schools will stop asking for SAT or ACT scores after the Pandemic. Everyone is well aware of the prep options and how the tests can be cheated. There is too much evidence that the tests are not testing what they claim to be testing and that they are easily prepared for so the scores are artificially inflated.

While there is free prep material for pretty much every test, that still requires knowledge of a program and some encouragement for most people, especially kids who are in Middle School. Realistically speaking, kids in Title I schools and near Title I schools are less likely to have knowledge that TJ exists or what they need to do to attend TJ. Their parents are likely to not be as informed or have an idea about what resources exist, free or paid.

There is a ton of anecdotal evidence and research that shows that the academic focus of Asian families, from pretty much every area of Asia, leads to parents who emphasis education, regardless of income, and seeking out opportunities for their kids. There is a long cultural history of valuing education and examples of how education, and tests, led to families changing their fortunes. This historical, cultural valuation of education seems to be unique to many Asian cultures. I am not a historian but have never had a Professor lecture on the use of merit based tests to hire people into government positions in Europe, South American, North American, or African cultures. The classes I took on Chinese History spent a lot of time discussing this subject.

There is nothing wrong with valuing education, that is a great thing. I totally get why the exam is important to folks.

What we need to do is find a way to reach out to kids in lesser performing schools and provide STEM opportunities that might engage a kid and help them decide that it makes sense to focus on school. Free after school robotics programs or coding programs that are 1-2 hours long in the ES. The parents will see them as free child care and it could help provide a more engaging introduction into STEM. Maybe have 2 days were the extra curricular are sports based and 3 days were the offerings are STEM based. Parents would have an incentive for their kids to participate, child care, and maybe it triggers some interest and drive in the kids.

Realistically, we are not going to be able to do much about this problem as long as parents are not engaged in their kids education. For many poor parents there is little time to put into their kids education because of the number of jobs being worked and other stressors. For many immigrant families, the basic education at FCPS is going to be massively better then what their kid would have received in their home country. There are systemic factors at play that are hard to fix. [/quote

Define "many schools." I do not believe that is accurate of the pre-Covid landscape.

I taught at three universities in the 1990's and schools were switching to the ACT because it was suppose to have less of a racial bias in how the questions were written so it was deemed a better judge of ability then the SAT. Universities have been discussing dropping the SAT or ACT because of the cost of taking the exams and the prep-ability. The practice of "test-optional" applications has been growing across the country. You can choose to include your scores or not.

https://www.fairtest.org/university/optional A list of the 1,365 Universities that are test blind for this coming year.
https://www.fairtest.org/sites/default/files/Optional-Growth-Chronology.pdf A chronological list of the schools dropping the exams.

I do find it interesting that they don't have a list of Universities that were test-optional, that would be a much larger list.

If you look the chronological list, you will see that a good number of the schools dropping them for this year are aiming for a 2-3 year pilot study, which implies that they are seriously thinking about dropping the requirement.

If you really taught at 3 universities, you should be able to concede that SAT scores are typically a good indicator of future performance in the classroom as well.

As someone with learning disabilities, I would say the SAT, ACT, GRE and the like are not a good indicator of future performance. Those tests never measured my actual abilities. Thankfully, my Graduate Program ignored my GRE scores, they were truly horrific, and accepted me without funding. I earned my TA and RA positions by the end of my first semester and my PhD. The Program was happy to have me based on my performance but I would normally not have been considered because my test scores were so low. My letters of recommendations were excellent. Two of my Professors called out my LDs in my letters and used them as an example of my willingness to study harder then most students and to apply myself in areas that challenged me. It was those letters and my grades that led to Graduate School.

Not to mention, the exams have also been shown to have a very real cultural bias that hurt underrepresented minorities and people in lower socioeconomic categories.

Yeah, I am fine with them dropping the standardized exams. AP and IB exams do a fine job of demonstrating what type of abilities a student has and pretty much everyone taking them is taking classes to prepare them for the exams. I have graded the AP exams and am pretty comfortable with how those exams are prepared for, given, and graded in terms of providing an equal footing to everyone taking the exams.

Then maybe the should use questions from AP exams for the TJ test.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Many schools had moved away from the SAT to the ACT and were starting to drop both tests before the COVID pandemic. I would expect that more schools will stop asking for SAT or ACT scores after the Pandemic. Everyone is well aware of the prep options and how the tests can be cheated. There is too much evidence that the tests are not testing what they claim to be testing and that they are easily prepared for so the scores are artificially inflated.

While there is free prep material for pretty much every test, that still requires knowledge of a program and some encouragement for most people, especially kids who are in Middle School. Realistically speaking, kids in Title I schools and near Title I schools are less likely to have knowledge that TJ exists or what they need to do to attend TJ. Their parents are likely to not be as informed or have an idea about what resources exist, free or paid.

There is a ton of anecdotal evidence and research that shows that the academic focus of Asian families, from pretty much every area of Asia, leads to parents who emphasis education, regardless of income, and seeking out opportunities for their kids. There is a long cultural history of valuing education and examples of how education, and tests, led to families changing their fortunes. This historical, cultural valuation of education seems to be unique to many Asian cultures. I am not a historian but have never had a Professor lecture on the use of merit based tests to hire people into government positions in Europe, South American, North American, or African cultures. The classes I took on Chinese History spent a lot of time discussing this subject.

There is nothing wrong with valuing education, that is a great thing. I totally get why the exam is important to folks.

What we need to do is find a way to reach out to kids in lesser performing schools and provide STEM opportunities that might engage a kid and help them decide that it makes sense to focus on school. Free after school robotics programs or coding programs that are 1-2 hours long in the ES. The parents will see them as free child care and it could help provide a more engaging introduction into STEM. Maybe have 2 days were the extra curricular are sports based and 3 days were the offerings are STEM based. Parents would have an incentive for their kids to participate, child care, and maybe it triggers some interest and drive in the kids.

Realistically, we are not going to be able to do much about this problem as long as parents are not engaged in their kids education. For many poor parents there is little time to put into their kids education because of the number of jobs being worked and other stressors. For many immigrant families, the basic education at FCPS is going to be massively better then what their kid would have received in their home country. There are systemic factors at play that are hard to fix. [/quote

Define "many schools." I do not believe that is accurate of the pre-Covid landscape.

I taught at three universities in the 1990's and schools were switching to the ACT because it was suppose to have less of a racial bias in how the questions were written so it was deemed a better judge of ability then the SAT. Universities have been discussing dropping the SAT or ACT because of the cost of taking the exams and the prep-ability. The practice of "test-optional" applications has been growing across the country. You can choose to include your scores or not.

https://www.fairtest.org/university/optional A list of the 1,365 Universities that are test blind for this coming year.
https://www.fairtest.org/sites/default/files/Optional-Growth-Chronology.pdf A chronological list of the schools dropping the exams.

I do find it interesting that they don't have a list of Universities that were test-optional, that would be a much larger list.

If you look the chronological list, you will see that a good number of the schools dropping them for this year are aiming for a 2-3 year pilot study, which implies that they are seriously thinking about dropping the requirement.

If you really taught at 3 universities, you should be able to concede that SAT scores are typically a good indicator of future performance in the classroom as well.

As someone with learning disabilities, I would say the SAT, ACT, GRE and the like are not a good indicator of future performance. Those tests never measured my actual abilities. Thankfully, my Graduate Program ignored my GRE scores, they were truly horrific, and accepted me without funding. I earned my TA and RA positions by the end of my first semester and my PhD. The Program was happy to have me based on my performance but I would normally not have been considered because my test scores were so low. My letters of recommendations were excellent. Two of my Professors called out my LDs in my letters and used them as an example of my willingness to study harder then most students and to apply myself in areas that challenged me. It was those letters and my grades that led to Graduate School.

Not to mention, the exams have also been shown to have a very real cultural bias that hurt underrepresented minorities and people in lower socioeconomic categories.

Yeah, I am fine with them dropping the standardized exams. AP and IB exams do a fine job of demonstrating what type of abilities a student has and pretty much everyone taking them is taking classes to prepare them for the exams. I have graded the AP exams and am pretty comfortable with how those exams are prepared for, given, and graded in terms of providing an equal footing to everyone taking the exams.

Then maybe the should use questions from AP exams for the TJ test.

What AP exam, exactly? BC Calculus? Physics C?

I will never understand the obsession with standardized testing for 13 year olds.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Many schools had moved away from the SAT to the ACT and were starting to drop both tests before the COVID pandemic. I would expect that more schools will stop asking for SAT or ACT scores after the Pandemic. Everyone is well aware of the prep options and how the tests can be cheated. There is too much evidence that the tests are not testing what they claim to be testing and that they are easily prepared for so the scores are artificially inflated.

While there is free prep material for pretty much every test, that still requires knowledge of a program and some encouragement for most people, especially kids who are in Middle School. Realistically speaking, kids in Title I schools and near Title I schools are less likely to have knowledge that TJ exists or what they need to do to attend TJ. Their parents are likely to not be as informed or have an idea about what resources exist, free or paid.

There is a ton of anecdotal evidence and research that shows that the academic focus of Asian families, from pretty much every area of Asia, leads to parents who emphasis education, regardless of income, and seeking out opportunities for their kids. There is a long cultural history of valuing education and examples of how education, and tests, led to families changing their fortunes. This historical, cultural valuation of education seems to be unique to many Asian cultures. I am not a historian but have never had a Professor lecture on the use of merit based tests to hire people into government positions in Europe, South American, North American, or African cultures. The classes I took on Chinese History spent a lot of time discussing this subject.

There is nothing wrong with valuing education, that is a great thing. I totally get why the exam is important to folks.

What we need to do is find a way to reach out to kids in lesser performing schools and provide STEM opportunities that might engage a kid and help them decide that it makes sense to focus on school. Free after school robotics programs or coding programs that are 1-2 hours long in the ES. The parents will see them as free child care and it could help provide a more engaging introduction into STEM. Maybe have 2 days were the extra curricular are sports based and 3 days were the offerings are STEM based. Parents would have an incentive for their kids to participate, child care, and maybe it triggers some interest and drive in the kids.

Realistically, we are not going to be able to do much about this problem as long as parents are not engaged in their kids education. For many poor parents there is little time to put into their kids education because of the number of jobs being worked and other stressors. For many immigrant families, the basic education at FCPS is going to be massively better then what their kid would have received in their home country. There are systemic factors at play that are hard to fix. [/quote

Define "many schools." I do not believe that is accurate of the pre-Covid landscape.

I taught at three universities in the 1990's and schools were switching to the ACT because it was suppose to have less of a racial bias in how the questions were written so it was deemed a better judge of ability then the SAT. Universities have been discussing dropping the SAT or ACT because of the cost of taking the exams and the prep-ability. The practice of "test-optional" applications has been growing across the country. You can choose to include your scores or not.

https://www.fairtest.org/university/optional A list of the 1,365 Universities that are test blind for this coming year.
https://www.fairtest.org/sites/default/files/Optional-Growth-Chronology.pdf A chronological list of the schools dropping the exams.

I do find it interesting that they don't have a list of Universities that were test-optional, that would be a much larger list.

If you look the chronological list, you will see that a good number of the schools dropping them for this year are aiming for a 2-3 year pilot study, which implies that they are seriously thinking about dropping the requirement.

If you really taught at 3 universities, you should be able to concede that SAT scores are typically a good indicator of future performance in the classroom as well.

As someone with learning disabilities, I would say the SAT, ACT, GRE and the like are not a good indicator of future performance. Those tests never measured my actual abilities. Thankfully, my Graduate Program ignored my GRE scores, they were truly horrific, and accepted me without funding. I earned my TA and RA positions by the end of my first semester and my PhD. The Program was happy to have me based on my performance but I would normally not have been considered because my test scores were so low. My letters of recommendations were excellent. Two of my Professors called out my LDs in my letters and used them as an example of my willingness to study harder then most students and to apply myself in areas that challenged me. It was those letters and my grades that led to Graduate School.

Not to mention, the exams have also been shown to have a very real cultural bias that hurt underrepresented minorities and people in lower socioeconomic categories.

Yeah, I am fine with them dropping the standardized exams. AP and IB exams do a fine job of demonstrating what type of abilities a student has and pretty much everyone taking them is taking classes to prepare them for the exams. I have graded the AP exams and am pretty comfortable with how those exams are prepared for, given, and graded in terms of providing an equal footing to everyone taking the exams.

Then maybe the should use questions from AP exams for the TJ test.

What AP exam, exactly? BC Calculus? Physics C?

I will never understand the obsession with standardized testing for 13 year olds.

Johns Hopkins CTY, Duke TIP, Davidson Gifted, etc. - they all use it to test for giftedness and have been doing so for decades. They claim it is extremely accurate in identifying gifted children.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Many schools had moved away from the SAT to the ACT and were starting to drop both tests before the COVID pandemic. I would expect that more schools will stop asking for SAT or ACT scores after the Pandemic. Everyone is well aware of the prep options and how the tests can be cheated. There is too much evidence that the tests are not testing what they claim to be testing and that they are easily prepared for so the scores are artificially inflated.

While there is free prep material for pretty much every test, that still requires knowledge of a program and some encouragement for most people, especially kids who are in Middle School. Realistically speaking, kids in Title I schools and near Title I schools are less likely to have knowledge that TJ exists or what they need to do to attend TJ. Their parents are likely to not be as informed or have an idea about what resources exist, free or paid.

There is a ton of anecdotal evidence and research that shows that the academic focus of Asian families, from pretty much every area of Asia, leads to parents who emphasis education, regardless of income, and seeking out opportunities for their kids. There is a long cultural history of valuing education and examples of how education, and tests, led to families changing their fortunes. This historical, cultural valuation of education seems to be unique to many Asian cultures. I am not a historian but have never had a Professor lecture on the use of merit based tests to hire people into government positions in Europe, South American, North American, or African cultures. The classes I took on Chinese History spent a lot of time discussing this subject.

There is nothing wrong with valuing education, that is a great thing. I totally get why the exam is important to folks.

What we need to do is find a way to reach out to kids in lesser performing schools and provide STEM opportunities that might engage a kid and help them decide that it makes sense to focus on school. Free after school robotics programs or coding programs that are 1-2 hours long in the ES. The parents will see them as free child care and it could help provide a more engaging introduction into STEM. Maybe have 2 days were the extra curricular are sports based and 3 days were the offerings are STEM based. Parents would have an incentive for their kids to participate, child care, and maybe it triggers some interest and drive in the kids.

Realistically, we are not going to be able to do much about this problem as long as parents are not engaged in their kids education. For many poor parents there is little time to put into their kids education because of the number of jobs being worked and other stressors. For many immigrant families, the basic education at FCPS is going to be massively better then what their kid would have received in their home country. There are systemic factors at play that are hard to fix. [/quote

Define "many schools." I do not believe that is accurate of the pre-Covid landscape.

I taught at three universities in the 1990's and schools were switching to the ACT because it was suppose to have less of a racial bias in how the questions were written so it was deemed a better judge of ability then the SAT. Universities have been discussing dropping the SAT or ACT because of the cost of taking the exams and the prep-ability. The practice of "test-optional" applications has been growing across the country. You can choose to include your scores or not.

https://www.fairtest.org/university/optional A list of the 1,365 Universities that are test blind for this coming year.
https://www.fairtest.org/sites/default/files/Optional-Growth-Chronology.pdf A chronological list of the schools dropping the exams.

I do find it interesting that they don't have a list of Universities that were test-optional, that would be a much larger list.

If you look the chronological list, you will see that a good number of the schools dropping them for this year are aiming for a 2-3 year pilot study, which implies that they are seriously thinking about dropping the requirement.

If you really taught at 3 universities, you should be able to concede that SAT scores are typically a good indicator of future performance in the classroom as well.

As someone with learning disabilities, I would say the SAT, ACT, GRE and the like are not a good indicator of future performance. Those tests never measured my actual abilities. Thankfully, my Graduate Program ignored my GRE scores, they were truly horrific, and accepted me without funding. I earned my TA and RA positions by the end of my first semester and my PhD. The Program was happy to have me based on my performance but I would normally not have been considered because my test scores were so low. My letters of recommendations were excellent. Two of my Professors called out my LDs in my letters and used them as an example of my willingness to study harder then most students and to apply myself in areas that challenged me. It was those letters and my grades that led to Graduate School.

Not to mention, the exams have also been shown to have a very real cultural bias that hurt underrepresented minorities and people in lower socioeconomic categories.

Yeah, I am fine with them dropping the standardized exams. AP and IB exams do a fine job of demonstrating what type of abilities a student has and pretty much everyone taking them is taking classes to prepare them for the exams. I have graded the AP exams and am pretty comfortable with how those exams are prepared for, given, and graded in terms of providing an equal footing to everyone taking the exams.

Then maybe the should use questions from AP exams for the TJ test.

What AP exam, exactly? BC Calculus? Physics C?

I will never understand the obsession with standardized testing for 13 year olds.

Johns Hopkins CTY, Duke TIP, Davidson Gifted, etc. - they all use it to test for giftedness and have been doing so for decades. They claim it is extremely accurate in identifying gifted children.

And make a lot of money to do so. But to use it as a mandatory assessment to determine placement in a public school?

[Anonymous]

I wonder what the list from this prep place will look like for the class of 2025?