DDOT's latest plan to destroy traffic, Georgia Avenue edition

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:As someone who is on Georgia almost every day, this plan is strange. Of all the Washingtonians who set foot on Georgia during a day, probably not one in a 100 takes the bus. It's pretty much just all cars.

What is the deal with this city wanting to created dedicated lanes to modes of transportation people don't really use? We have 150 miles of bike lanes for the city's approximately 150 bicyclists. We're going to create a bus lane on a street where only a tiny fraction of the people there using the street take the bus?

22,000 people take buses on Georgia Ave *every day.* That is 1/2 the people traveling on Georgia. It is the busiest bus corridor in DC.

https://ago-item-storage.s3.amazonaws.com/604a004ea0874e08be875c2eda2cfbdf/FAQs.pdf?X-Amz-Security-Token=IQoJb3JpZ2luX2VjENr%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2FwEaCXVzLWVhc3QtMSJHMEUCIQDTJtZylTcVyDE8RuINrBcBhWbin80B2D2GJD995wUi4QIgYzVkT9rXJZdFUjoc9cQYu%2Bolhi13EsLGuxBe1iuWqP0qtAUIMhAAGgw2MDQ3NTgxMDI2NjUiDME3OcyG6J0ANtZZRCqRBYQMWngcPj6ErP9CaQ%2FOJpr%2FJGGKehfT2l7TxMP1%2FWlNO0echg0JXnmmOz6HjtSQVgsHgnyOI9kQ7eEF7ItQAiP8XMWyCAfGtvDL8JFL3Uhahy2Zj3PfjIohzC3yW38kgZqODd%2BAsQX8MUIxyseOahs%2Bm68iQ2PnUCi56gH9i2BZXS3x926VPLaTzW7uuaNM1dmYTMWxoHloQO6GzJqi7CJkWATzJhrXP9eyjxT8UkHqXpGi3%2FxtttK%2BKPpgFbY2%2BnREeRZGJQg7CBSzyTbrekV9qi0vrfpZy%2BrDzBzaKlclU8uakaEBfHUPnhsB1Ugt0CPFpx9hERGp9DIHLo2%2BaMWmsog22vLbrTlTiDWlflkUeTKLUpo4mDrIuRQ7bLfapwixgDckUgJcK3EXEmSJx4NpFaIhm7IkEv61kmwmfBYos6DGXuZuOVM05bp1G2mAdPY6rzqTWHmGAhYcvHF%2B%2FrFtVJU9aXKGtGFB%2FWBd%2B1zTt1%2BVxZCOio9krJJ20tb22fbpQLv%2B2MZ%2FoxBvO%2FnDez4zbpRJflIODXXPhtJ1JQRCcFRO0oT%2B0i5a4djWsT%2FsTaj9JSPmmcDL%2BZ8kjSWseVjgZ8%2FacRFHaOcIe1nVGSiU%2BU73Zr7cKtohCXR6t67424a48Ufm4Vlzje338R5tj%2Bh14FKQaTXONqXxkvIBd%2BrIAeDXrNxC74wSTCTT23X3u2A9tO4OP5ZwZnSqmOl4xyb1a58fEjTIbRgEiRQIHqfv4B96w1zA1oFkD53KKD%2BJFO80btfven8w4a2Fa%2FJ8IHcliK9ADYT3wE6Sv%2FxO5Y00Mvquo%2BxsgCN7uYXZDXff%2BVoRK3ept9fFN0Wf1ZhhVe4PDobLKY2r3U02sIuVX7dEDzDFrpC4BjqxASjZEpFC668%2BbUTDQvJn56Zre2yCOegzuBJydimXxgs%2FhXIqJ6ERdRfyx8nuR80LbCiJ6CYRtQf6meAZyBeQzp8WQrkV8G92wMkVry5SM6vpy0s7ZIbIlVjQYiZU2wL7CbvGaQBOFWTJmw4N1V5uIEiY1fCTf41w8T0x69Ryx5UpbONKqTfw%2Fg5PP09R2pcrmISpnLWyl0JKUPH7QzQGQ%2FbNhySXWUOBKeMAr1a%2BHjqJ0g%3D%3D&X-Amz-Algorithm=AWS4-HMAC-SHA256&X-Amz-Date=20241007T180106Z&X-Amz-SignedHeaders=host&X-Amz-Expires=300&X-Amz-Credential=ASIAYZTTEKKEZGODYWHE%2F20241007%2Fus-east-1%2Fs3%2Faws4_request&X-Amz-Signature=c9e40009a9f4b058b221a019b001471e6e442f73f369d8737fe6ecfe55f4e44b

Half! Ha! What a lie. Go drive up and down on Georgia and count how many buses you see.

Ok well, if you think DDOT is literally lying then we don’t really have much to talk about. By they way buses can carry many times more people than cars and hence you’ll see fewer of them than cars yet they will still transport more people than cars. Math!!!

Yes, I do think DDOT is lying. Their flyer for this project says "safety is DDOT's #1 Priority on Georgia Avenue" but they dont mention at all how this plan will divert traffic off Georgia onto all the surrounding streets, where people (including tons of kids) actually live. I believe that's called lying by omission.

in fact there is a LENGTHY discussion of that

no, there isn't. the city actually says "the traffic modeling does not suggest drivers will choose side streets to make their existing trips," which i mean does anyone at ddot actually believe that?

There's a lot of odd assumptions in this plan. They say people will switch to using North Capitol. What?

There's a lot of odd assumptions in all these DDOT plans. Most of them seem to stem from working backwards and trying to justify the idea instead of looking at the data and moving forward.

The proponenets of these plans are also weirdly obsessed with Maryland and think nobody in DC takes these routes.

As for N. Capitol, it will be the last N-S route standing after strangling 16th and finishing off Connecticut and Georgia.

They frequently cite what they call similar bus projects in other, unnamed cities. "On peer city projects, bus ridership increased after the installation of bus lanes." But we already have more than 10 miles of bus only lanes here in DC. They could just use data from that. They don't, which is telling. If the numbers were good, they'd cited them. Instead we get vague references to what happened in other, unnamed cities.

We BARELY just started enforcing the bus lanes.

oh stop.

the city began rolling out bus-only lanes in 2019 and from the outset said it would vigorously enforce them.

"Starting today, the city will enforce the new rules, with two trucks nearby to haul any vehicles that park in the lanes, and police and traffic officers will ticket violators. The fine for driving or panking in the bus lanes is $200." --The Washington Post, June 3, 2019

https://www.washingtonpost.com/transportation/2019/06/03/these-lanes-are-buses-only-enforcement-new-downtown-bus-lanes-begins-opening-day/

Dude the automated bus camera just started this summer. Do some basic research NIMBY.

We've had automated bus camera enforcement for more than a year. As the Post story shows, we've had other forms of enforcement in some of these bus only lanes for five years.

Why can't we have *any* data on how *any of these 10+ miles of bus only lanes are doing? Why are we citing "girlfriend-in-Canada" numbers about what supposedly happened in unnamed cities?

We've actually had camera enforcement for about 10 months because the city kept delaying them. But that still doesnt answer the question of why there's no data on any bus lanes at all. They could put out what they have, but they're probably embarrassed by them. But if bus lanes aren't working the way the city said they would, then why create more of them?

there’s plenty of data that bus ridership rebounded post pandemic

That's completely meaningless. Of course, bus ridership is up from the time when everything in Washington DC was closed.

The only question that matters is how much bus only lanes increase ridership compared to what ridership was on those routes before the bus only lanes. We've had bus only lanes in this city for five years. How can there be literally no information about how it's gone?

I'll answer that: It's because bus only lanes didn't increase ridership at all, and the city doesnt want to admit it. But if bus only lanes don't increase ridership, then why would you create more of them?

OK, so if they don't increase ridership but the people who ride buses get to work much faster, is that a bad thing? I think it would be a positive that thousands of commuters could have their commutes cut down.

Not if you're simultaneously ruining the commutes of a far larger number of people. How is that progress.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:As someone who is on Georgia almost every day, this plan is strange. Of all the Washingtonians who set foot on Georgia during a day, probably not one in a 100 takes the bus. It's pretty much just all cars.

What is the deal with this city wanting to created dedicated lanes to modes of transportation people don't really use? We have 150 miles of bike lanes for the city's approximately 150 bicyclists. We're going to create a bus lane on a street where only a tiny fraction of the people there using the street take the bus?

22,000 people take buses on Georgia Ave *every day.* That is 1/2 the people traveling on Georgia. It is the busiest bus corridor in DC.

https://ago-item-storage.s3.amazonaws.com/604a004ea0874e08be875c2eda2cfbdf/FAQs.pdf?X-Amz-Security-Token=IQoJb3JpZ2luX2VjENr%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2FwEaCXVzLWVhc3QtMSJHMEUCIQDTJtZylTcVyDE8RuINrBcBhWbin80B2D2GJD995wUi4QIgYzVkT9rXJZdFUjoc9cQYu%2Bolhi13EsLGuxBe1iuWqP0qtAUIMhAAGgw2MDQ3NTgxMDI2NjUiDME3OcyG6J0ANtZZRCqRBYQMWngcPj6ErP9CaQ%2FOJpr%2FJGGKehfT2l7TxMP1%2FWlNO0echg0JXnmmOz6HjtSQVgsHgnyOI9kQ7eEF7ItQAiP8XMWyCAfGtvDL8JFL3Uhahy2Zj3PfjIohzC3yW38kgZqODd%2BAsQX8MUIxyseOahs%2Bm68iQ2PnUCi56gH9i2BZXS3x926VPLaTzW7uuaNM1dmYTMWxoHloQO6GzJqi7CJkWATzJhrXP9eyjxT8UkHqXpGi3%2FxtttK%2BKPpgFbY2%2BnREeRZGJQg7CBSzyTbrekV9qi0vrfpZy%2BrDzBzaKlclU8uakaEBfHUPnhsB1Ugt0CPFpx9hERGp9DIHLo2%2BaMWmsog22vLbrTlTiDWlflkUeTKLUpo4mDrIuRQ7bLfapwixgDckUgJcK3EXEmSJx4NpFaIhm7IkEv61kmwmfBYos6DGXuZuOVM05bp1G2mAdPY6rzqTWHmGAhYcvHF%2B%2FrFtVJU9aXKGtGFB%2FWBd%2B1zTt1%2BVxZCOio9krJJ20tb22fbpQLv%2B2MZ%2FoxBvO%2FnDez4zbpRJflIODXXPhtJ1JQRCcFRO0oT%2B0i5a4djWsT%2FsTaj9JSPmmcDL%2BZ8kjSWseVjgZ8%2FacRFHaOcIe1nVGSiU%2BU73Zr7cKtohCXR6t67424a48Ufm4Vlzje338R5tj%2Bh14FKQaTXONqXxkvIBd%2BrIAeDXrNxC74wSTCTT23X3u2A9tO4OP5ZwZnSqmOl4xyb1a58fEjTIbRgEiRQIHqfv4B96w1zA1oFkD53KKD%2BJFO80btfven8w4a2Fa%2FJ8IHcliK9ADYT3wE6Sv%2FxO5Y00Mvquo%2BxsgCN7uYXZDXff%2BVoRK3ept9fFN0Wf1ZhhVe4PDobLKY2r3U02sIuVX7dEDzDFrpC4BjqxASjZEpFC668%2BbUTDQvJn56Zre2yCOegzuBJydimXxgs%2FhXIqJ6ERdRfyx8nuR80LbCiJ6CYRtQf6meAZyBeQzp8WQrkV8G92wMkVry5SM6vpy0s7ZIbIlVjQYiZU2wL7CbvGaQBOFWTJmw4N1V5uIEiY1fCTf41w8T0x69Ryx5UpbONKqTfw%2Fg5PP09R2pcrmISpnLWyl0JKUPH7QzQGQ%2FbNhySXWUOBKeMAr1a%2BHjqJ0g%3D%3D&X-Amz-Algorithm=AWS4-HMAC-SHA256&X-Amz-Date=20241007T180106Z&X-Amz-SignedHeaders=host&X-Amz-Expires=300&X-Amz-Credential=ASIAYZTTEKKEZGODYWHE%2F20241007%2Fus-east-1%2Fs3%2Faws4_request&X-Amz-Signature=c9e40009a9f4b058b221a019b001471e6e442f73f369d8737fe6ecfe55f4e44b

Half! Ha! What a lie. Go drive up and down on Georgia and count how many buses you see.

Ok well, if you think DDOT is literally lying then we don’t really have much to talk about. By they way buses can carry many times more people than cars and hence you’ll see fewer of them than cars yet they will still transport more people than cars. Math!!!

Yes, I do think DDOT is lying. Their flyer for this project says "safety is DDOT's #1 Priority on Georgia Avenue" but they dont mention at all how this plan will divert traffic off Georgia onto all the surrounding streets, where people (including tons of kids) actually live. I believe that's called lying by omission.

in fact there is a LENGTHY discussion of that

no, there isn't. the city actually says "the traffic modeling does not suggest drivers will choose side streets to make their existing trips," which i mean does anyone at ddot actually believe that?

There's a lot of odd assumptions in this plan. They say people will switch to using North Capitol. What?

There's a lot of odd assumptions in all these DDOT plans. Most of them seem to stem from working backwards and trying to justify the idea instead of looking at the data and moving forward.

The proponenets of these plans are also weirdly obsessed with Maryland and think nobody in DC takes these routes.

As for N. Capitol, it will be the last N-S route standing after strangling 16th and finishing off Connecticut and Georgia.

They frequently cite what they call similar bus projects in other, unnamed cities. "On peer city projects, bus ridership increased after the installation of bus lanes." But we already have more than 10 miles of bus only lanes here in DC. They could just use data from that. They don't, which is telling. If the numbers were good, they'd cited them. Instead we get vague references to what happened in other, unnamed cities.

We BARELY just started enforcing the bus lanes.

oh stop.

the city began rolling out bus-only lanes in 2019 and from the outset said it would vigorously enforce them.

"Starting today, the city will enforce the new rules, with two trucks nearby to haul any vehicles that park in the lanes, and police and traffic officers will ticket violators. The fine for driving or panking in the bus lanes is $200." --The Washington Post, June 3, 2019

https://www.washingtonpost.com/transportation/2019/06/03/these-lanes-are-buses-only-enforcement-new-downtown-bus-lanes-begins-opening-day/

Dude the automated bus camera just started this summer. Do some basic research NIMBY.

We've had automated bus camera enforcement for more than a year. As the Post story shows, we've had other forms of enforcement in some of these bus only lanes for five years.

Why can't we have *any* data on how *any of these 10+ miles of bus only lanes are doing? Why are we citing "girlfriend-in-Canada" numbers about what supposedly happened in unnamed cities?

We've actually had camera enforcement for about 10 months because the city kept delaying them. But that still doesnt answer the question of why there's no data on any bus lanes at all. They could put out what they have, but they're probably embarrassed by them. But if bus lanes aren't working the way the city said they would, then why create more of them?

If you're really that curious, you can start by requesting years of bus geolocation data from WMATA. That dataset will take some cleaning but where there's a will there's a way. Next you'll have to find yourself a good natural experiment by comparing differences in on-time performance along routes with bus lanes to like routes without bus lanes. This will be a challenge because there are only about a half dozen bus lanes and they are placed along routes that really aren't like any other routes in the city. Don't forget to account for the fact that the installation of the bus lanes - and enforcement thereof - coincided with an event that disrupted and then gradually restored vehicular traffic like nothing else in human history. Inevitably, whatever findings you obtain will be highly sensitive to alternative modeling choices and probably won't convince anyone who understands the slightest thing about bus lanes or causal inference. Of course, you could alternatively do the sensible thing and observe what most of us are seeing with our own eyes and that is that buses tend to move much faster when they are not routinely blocked by traffic.

16th and Georgia are extremely alike. The buses even share a terminus in Silver Spring. You sound like you're trying to cover something up even though you probably just don't know anything about either of those two streets.

Great. You have a sample size of two. Next time, please pay attention in statistics class.

It's kind of surreal the people here not only arguing against, but mocking the idea of evidence-based policymaking.

They also don't care about transparency in government.

[Anonymous]

I just want to point out that within a few days this thread has almost hit 50 pages and so is on track to ramp up to the same amount as the Conn Ave bike lanes. Only proving that all of you people opposing the Conn Ave bike lanes because of entitled scofflaw cyclists or some shit are full of crap. You carbrain morons oppose anything that impedes your commute hard stop. Whether that's a bike lane, the goddamn streetcar, a bus lane, or a streetery. There's no negotiation or design consideration that DDOT or any advocates for any multimodal transportation because you can't get your head out of your ass long enough to take a step back and consider a bigger picture.

Ridiculous.

DDOT staff should come here and read this garbage so that the next time Nick Delledonne and crew show up to whine and moan they can just be ignored for the obstructionists they are.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:As someone who is on Georgia almost every day, this plan is strange. Of all the Washingtonians who set foot on Georgia during a day, probably not one in a 100 takes the bus. It's pretty much just all cars.

What is the deal with this city wanting to created dedicated lanes to modes of transportation people don't really use? We have 150 miles of bike lanes for the city's approximately 150 bicyclists. We're going to create a bus lane on a street where only a tiny fraction of the people there using the street take the bus?

22,000 people take buses on Georgia Ave *every day.* That is 1/2 the people traveling on Georgia. It is the busiest bus corridor in DC.

https://ago-item-storage.s3.amazonaws.com/604a004ea0874e08be875c2eda2cfbdf/FAQs.pdf?X-Amz-Security-Token=IQoJb3JpZ2luX2VjENr%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2FwEaCXVzLWVhc3QtMSJHMEUCIQDTJtZylTcVyDE8RuINrBcBhWbin80B2D2GJD995wUi4QIgYzVkT9rXJZdFUjoc9cQYu%2Bolhi13EsLGuxBe1iuWqP0qtAUIMhAAGgw2MDQ3NTgxMDI2NjUiDME3OcyG6J0ANtZZRCqRBYQMWngcPj6ErP9CaQ%2FOJpr%2FJGGKehfT2l7TxMP1%2FWlNO0echg0JXnmmOz6HjtSQVgsHgnyOI9kQ7eEF7ItQAiP8XMWyCAfGtvDL8JFL3Uhahy2Zj3PfjIohzC3yW38kgZqODd%2BAsQX8MUIxyseOahs%2Bm68iQ2PnUCi56gH9i2BZXS3x926VPLaTzW7uuaNM1dmYTMWxoHloQO6GzJqi7CJkWATzJhrXP9eyjxT8UkHqXpGi3%2FxtttK%2BKPpgFbY2%2BnREeRZGJQg7CBSzyTbrekV9qi0vrfpZy%2BrDzBzaKlclU8uakaEBfHUPnhsB1Ugt0CPFpx9hERGp9DIHLo2%2BaMWmsog22vLbrTlTiDWlflkUeTKLUpo4mDrIuRQ7bLfapwixgDckUgJcK3EXEmSJx4NpFaIhm7IkEv61kmwmfBYos6DGXuZuOVM05bp1G2mAdPY6rzqTWHmGAhYcvHF%2B%2FrFtVJU9aXKGtGFB%2FWBd%2B1zTt1%2BVxZCOio9krJJ20tb22fbpQLv%2B2MZ%2FoxBvO%2FnDez4zbpRJflIODXXPhtJ1JQRCcFRO0oT%2B0i5a4djWsT%2FsTaj9JSPmmcDL%2BZ8kjSWseVjgZ8%2FacRFHaOcIe1nVGSiU%2BU73Zr7cKtohCXR6t67424a48Ufm4Vlzje338R5tj%2Bh14FKQaTXONqXxkvIBd%2BrIAeDXrNxC74wSTCTT23X3u2A9tO4OP5ZwZnSqmOl4xyb1a58fEjTIbRgEiRQIHqfv4B96w1zA1oFkD53KKD%2BJFO80btfven8w4a2Fa%2FJ8IHcliK9ADYT3wE6Sv%2FxO5Y00Mvquo%2BxsgCN7uYXZDXff%2BVoRK3ept9fFN0Wf1ZhhVe4PDobLKY2r3U02sIuVX7dEDzDFrpC4BjqxASjZEpFC668%2BbUTDQvJn56Zre2yCOegzuBJydimXxgs%2FhXIqJ6ERdRfyx8nuR80LbCiJ6CYRtQf6meAZyBeQzp8WQrkV8G92wMkVry5SM6vpy0s7ZIbIlVjQYiZU2wL7CbvGaQBOFWTJmw4N1V5uIEiY1fCTf41w8T0x69Ryx5UpbONKqTfw%2Fg5PP09R2pcrmISpnLWyl0JKUPH7QzQGQ%2FbNhySXWUOBKeMAr1a%2BHjqJ0g%3D%3D&X-Amz-Algorithm=AWS4-HMAC-SHA256&X-Amz-Date=20241007T180106Z&X-Amz-SignedHeaders=host&X-Amz-Expires=300&X-Amz-Credential=ASIAYZTTEKKEZGODYWHE%2F20241007%2Fus-east-1%2Fs3%2Faws4_request&X-Amz-Signature=c9e40009a9f4b058b221a019b001471e6e442f73f369d8737fe6ecfe55f4e44b

Half! Ha! What a lie. Go drive up and down on Georgia and count how many buses you see.

Ok well, if you think DDOT is literally lying then we don’t really have much to talk about. By they way buses can carry many times more people than cars and hence you’ll see fewer of them than cars yet they will still transport more people than cars. Math!!!

Yes, I do think DDOT is lying. Their flyer for this project says "safety is DDOT's #1 Priority on Georgia Avenue" but they dont mention at all how this plan will divert traffic off Georgia onto all the surrounding streets, where people (including tons of kids) actually live. I believe that's called lying by omission.

in fact there is a LENGTHY discussion of that

no, there isn't. the city actually says "the traffic modeling does not suggest drivers will choose side streets to make their existing trips," which i mean does anyone at ddot actually believe that?

There's a lot of odd assumptions in this plan. They say people will switch to using North Capitol. What?

There's a lot of odd assumptions in all these DDOT plans. Most of them seem to stem from working backwards and trying to justify the idea instead of looking at the data and moving forward.

The proponenets of these plans are also weirdly obsessed with Maryland and think nobody in DC takes these routes.

As for N. Capitol, it will be the last N-S route standing after strangling 16th and finishing off Connecticut and Georgia.

They frequently cite what they call similar bus projects in other, unnamed cities. "On peer city projects, bus ridership increased after the installation of bus lanes." But we already have more than 10 miles of bus only lanes here in DC. They could just use data from that. They don't, which is telling. If the numbers were good, they'd cited them. Instead we get vague references to what happened in other, unnamed cities.

We BARELY just started enforcing the bus lanes.

oh stop.

the city began rolling out bus-only lanes in 2019 and from the outset said it would vigorously enforce them.

"Starting today, the city will enforce the new rules, with two trucks nearby to haul any vehicles that park in the lanes, and police and traffic officers will ticket violators. The fine for driving or panking in the bus lanes is $200." --The Washington Post, June 3, 2019

https://www.washingtonpost.com/transportation/2019/06/03/these-lanes-are-buses-only-enforcement-new-downtown-bus-lanes-begins-opening-day/

Dude the automated bus camera just started this summer. Do some basic research NIMBY.

We've had automated bus camera enforcement for more than a year. As the Post story shows, we've had other forms of enforcement in some of these bus only lanes for five years.

Why can't we have *any* data on how *any of these 10+ miles of bus only lanes are doing? Why are we citing "girlfriend-in-Canada" numbers about what supposedly happened in unnamed cities?

We've actually had camera enforcement for about 10 months because the city kept delaying them. But that still doesnt answer the question of why there's no data on any bus lanes at all. They could put out what they have, but they're probably embarrassed by them. But if bus lanes aren't working the way the city said they would, then why create more of them?

If you're really that curious, you can start by requesting years of bus geolocation data from WMATA. That dataset will take some cleaning but where there's a will there's a way. Next you'll have to find yourself a good natural experiment by comparing differences in on-time performance along routes with bus lanes to like routes without bus lanes. This will be a challenge because there are only about a half dozen bus lanes and they are placed along routes that really aren't like any other routes in the city. Don't forget to account for the fact that the installation of the bus lanes - and enforcement thereof - coincided with an event that disrupted and then gradually restored vehicular traffic like nothing else in human history. Inevitably, whatever findings you obtain will be highly sensitive to alternative modeling choices and probably won't convince anyone who understands the slightest thing about bus lanes or causal inference. Of course, you could alternatively do the sensible thing and observe what most of us are seeing with our own eyes and that is that buses tend to move much faster when they are not routinely blocked by traffic.

16th and Georgia are extremely alike. The buses even share a terminus in Silver Spring. You sound like you're trying to cover something up even though you probably just don't know anything about either of those two streets.

Great. You have a sample size of two. Next time, please pay attention in statistics class.

WTF? This isn't complicated. A lot of grand promises were made about 16th and are being repeated for Georgia. They are twins. It's basic common sense to look at the impact from the first one before starting the second one. Especially because there's two whole years of data.

If that policy were applied to roads and highways, no DOT would ever widen another road or highway to "fix congestion". And yet.

Huh? You don't make any sense.

An experimental policy was implemented 3.5 years ago. Before it was implemented claims were made about safety, congestion, diverted traffic and bus ridership. Now the exact same experimental policy has been proposed for another street and the same claims are being made. This new street is strikingly similar to the previous street. It doesn't make sense to ignore whatever has happened on the first street. Maybe the claims were true maybe they weren't.

Either way it makes sense to look at what is currently happening on 16th in order to predict what might happen on Georgia under the same circumstances.

Only a fool goes into production before testing the prototype.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I just want to point out that within a few days this thread has almost hit 50 pages and so is on track to ramp up to the same amount as the Conn Ave bike lanes. Only proving that all of you people opposing the Conn Ave bike lanes because of entitled scofflaw cyclists or some shit are full of crap. You carbrain morons oppose anything that impedes your commute hard stop. Whether that's a bike lane, the goddamn streetcar, a bus lane, or a streetery. There's no negotiation or design consideration that DDOT or any advocates for any multimodal transportation because you can't get your head out of your ass long enough to take a step back and consider a bigger picture.

Ridiculous.

DDOT staff should come here and read this garbage so that the next time Nick Delledonne and crew show up to whine and moan they can just be ignored for the obstructionists they are.

Or maybe. Just maybe. These ideas you are pushing are not popular among the population at large and would have a host of negative consequences.

Asking what has happened on 16th since these exact same measures were implemented in 2021 is not radical, obstructionist. whining, moaning or any other epithets you wish to spew. It is common sense and the basic foundation of sound policy making.

I am sorry that your deep seated hatred of fellow Washingtonians, general misanthropy, and evangelical zeal has clouded your judgement to such an extent that you feel personally threatened by such anodyne questions. I would never have imagined that such simple questions could engender a mental break. But here we are.

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Anonymous wrote:As someone who is on Georgia almost every day, this plan is strange. Of all the Washingtonians who set foot on Georgia during a day, probably not one in a 100 takes the bus. It's pretty much just all cars.

What is the deal with this city wanting to created dedicated lanes to modes of transportation people don't really use? We have 150 miles of bike lanes for the city's approximately 150 bicyclists. We're going to create a bus lane on a street where only a tiny fraction of the people there using the street take the bus?

22,000 people take buses on Georgia Ave *every day.* That is 1/2 the people traveling on Georgia. It is the busiest bus corridor in DC.

https://ago-item-storage.s3.amazonaws.com/604a004ea0874e08be875c2eda2cfbdf/FAQs.pdf?X-Amz-Security-Token=IQoJb3JpZ2luX2VjENr%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2FwEaCXVzLWVhc3QtMSJHMEUCIQDTJtZylTcVyDE8RuINrBcBhWbin80B2D2GJD995wUi4QIgYzVkT9rXJZdFUjoc9cQYu%2Bolhi13EsLGuxBe1iuWqP0qtAUIMhAAGgw2MDQ3NTgxMDI2NjUiDME3OcyG6J0ANtZZRCqRBYQMWngcPj6ErP9CaQ%2FOJpr%2FJGGKehfT2l7TxMP1%2FWlNO0echg0JXnmmOz6HjtSQVgsHgnyOI9kQ7eEF7ItQAiP8XMWyCAfGtvDL8JFL3Uhahy2Zj3PfjIohzC3yW38kgZqODd%2BAsQX8MUIxyseOahs%2Bm68iQ2PnUCi56gH9i2BZXS3x926VPLaTzW7uuaNM1dmYTMWxoHloQO6GzJqi7CJkWATzJhrXP9eyjxT8UkHqXpGi3%2FxtttK%2BKPpgFbY2%2BnREeRZGJQg7CBSzyTbrekV9qi0vrfpZy%2BrDzBzaKlclU8uakaEBfHUPnhsB1Ugt0CPFpx9hERGp9DIHLo2%2BaMWmsog22vLbrTlTiDWlflkUeTKLUpo4mDrIuRQ7bLfapwixgDckUgJcK3EXEmSJx4NpFaIhm7IkEv61kmwmfBYos6DGXuZuOVM05bp1G2mAdPY6rzqTWHmGAhYcvHF%2B%2FrFtVJU9aXKGtGFB%2FWBd%2B1zTt1%2BVxZCOio9krJJ20tb22fbpQLv%2B2MZ%2FoxBvO%2FnDez4zbpRJflIODXXPhtJ1JQRCcFRO0oT%2B0i5a4djWsT%2FsTaj9JSPmmcDL%2BZ8kjSWseVjgZ8%2FacRFHaOcIe1nVGSiU%2BU73Zr7cKtohCXR6t67424a48Ufm4Vlzje338R5tj%2Bh14FKQaTXONqXxkvIBd%2BrIAeDXrNxC74wSTCTT23X3u2A9tO4OP5ZwZnSqmOl4xyb1a58fEjTIbRgEiRQIHqfv4B96w1zA1oFkD53KKD%2BJFO80btfven8w4a2Fa%2FJ8IHcliK9ADYT3wE6Sv%2FxO5Y00Mvquo%2BxsgCN7uYXZDXff%2BVoRK3ept9fFN0Wf1ZhhVe4PDobLKY2r3U02sIuVX7dEDzDFrpC4BjqxASjZEpFC668%2BbUTDQvJn56Zre2yCOegzuBJydimXxgs%2FhXIqJ6ERdRfyx8nuR80LbCiJ6CYRtQf6meAZyBeQzp8WQrkV8G92wMkVry5SM6vpy0s7ZIbIlVjQYiZU2wL7CbvGaQBOFWTJmw4N1V5uIEiY1fCTf41w8T0x69Ryx5UpbONKqTfw%2Fg5PP09R2pcrmISpnLWyl0JKUPH7QzQGQ%2FbNhySXWUOBKeMAr1a%2BHjqJ0g%3D%3D&X-Amz-Algorithm=AWS4-HMAC-SHA256&X-Amz-Date=20241007T180106Z&X-Amz-SignedHeaders=host&X-Amz-Expires=300&X-Amz-Credential=ASIAYZTTEKKEZGODYWHE%2F20241007%2Fus-east-1%2Fs3%2Faws4_request&X-Amz-Signature=c9e40009a9f4b058b221a019b001471e6e442f73f369d8737fe6ecfe55f4e44b

Half! Ha! What a lie. Go drive up and down on Georgia and count how many buses you see.

Ok well, if you think DDOT is literally lying then we don’t really have much to talk about. By they way buses can carry many times more people than cars and hence you’ll see fewer of them than cars yet they will still transport more people than cars. Math!!!

Yes, I do think DDOT is lying. Their flyer for this project says "safety is DDOT's #1 Priority on Georgia Avenue" but they dont mention at all how this plan will divert traffic off Georgia onto all the surrounding streets, where people (including tons of kids) actually live. I believe that's called lying by omission.

in fact there is a LENGTHY discussion of that

no, there isn't. the city actually says "the traffic modeling does not suggest drivers will choose side streets to make their existing trips," which i mean does anyone at ddot actually believe that?

There's a lot of odd assumptions in this plan. They say people will switch to using North Capitol. What?

There's a lot of odd assumptions in all these DDOT plans. Most of them seem to stem from working backwards and trying to justify the idea instead of looking at the data and moving forward.

The proponenets of these plans are also weirdly obsessed with Maryland and think nobody in DC takes these routes.

As for N. Capitol, it will be the last N-S route standing after strangling 16th and finishing off Connecticut and Georgia.

They frequently cite what they call similar bus projects in other, unnamed cities. "On peer city projects, bus ridership increased after the installation of bus lanes." But we already have more than 10 miles of bus only lanes here in DC. They could just use data from that. They don't, which is telling. If the numbers were good, they'd cited them. Instead we get vague references to what happened in other, unnamed cities.

We BARELY just started enforcing the bus lanes.

oh stop.

the city began rolling out bus-only lanes in 2019 and from the outset said it would vigorously enforce them.

"Starting today, the city will enforce the new rules, with two trucks nearby to haul any vehicles that park in the lanes, and police and traffic officers will ticket violators. The fine for driving or panking in the bus lanes is $200." --The Washington Post, June 3, 2019

https://www.washingtonpost.com/transportation/2019/06/03/these-lanes-are-buses-only-enforcement-new-downtown-bus-lanes-begins-opening-day/

Dude the automated bus camera just started this summer. Do some basic research NIMBY.

We've had automated bus camera enforcement for more than a year. As the Post story shows, we've had other forms of enforcement in some of these bus only lanes for five years.

Why can't we have *any* data on how *any of these 10+ miles of bus only lanes are doing? Why are we citing "girlfriend-in-Canada" numbers about what supposedly happened in unnamed cities?

We've actually had camera enforcement for about 10 months because the city kept delaying them. But that still doesnt answer the question of why there's no data on any bus lanes at all. They could put out what they have, but they're probably embarrassed by them. But if bus lanes aren't working the way the city said they would, then why create more of them?

If you're really that curious, you can start by requesting years of bus geolocation data from WMATA. That dataset will take some cleaning but where there's a will there's a way. Next you'll have to find yourself a good natural experiment by comparing differences in on-time performance along routes with bus lanes to like routes without bus lanes. This will be a challenge because there are only about a half dozen bus lanes and they are placed along routes that really aren't like any other routes in the city. Don't forget to account for the fact that the installation of the bus lanes - and enforcement thereof - coincided with an event that disrupted and then gradually restored vehicular traffic like nothing else in human history. Inevitably, whatever findings you obtain will be highly sensitive to alternative modeling choices and probably won't convince anyone who understands the slightest thing about bus lanes or causal inference. Of course, you could alternatively do the sensible thing and observe what most of us are seeing with our own eyes and that is that buses tend to move much faster when they are not routinely blocked by traffic.

Kind of seems like DDOT's job doesn't it?

Go back and read the stories from 2019 when the city began rolling out bus only lanes. So many big promises! They said it would be so much easier to get around and some blocks would see 70 buses (?!) per hour and how the city stands ready to ticket and tow anyone blocking the lanes.

So how did that work out? Shouldn't DDOT be able to answer the question now, five years later, especially if they want to build more bus only lanes?

Instead we get this, in their pitch for the Georgia Avenue project: "On peer city projects, bus ridership increased after the installation of bus lanes." Certainly sounds like bus ridership did *not* increase in DC projects or they would have said so.

Something tells me that you wouldn't believe any study authored by DDOT. And, no, DDOT's job is not to write sophisticated quasi-experimental analyses of policy interventions. That is the job of professional social scientists. And a few studies of the efficacy of bus lanes have been written. And they are out there for you to find. But because you are so invested in your little conspiracy theory. I can't say I expect you to go out and find them and, even if you did, I can't say I'd expect the studies to shift your priors.

So basically you're saying DDOT has no idea what, if anything, creating bus only lanes will accomplish, and that all of its big promises here are based on literally nothing. Gotcha. Wow.

Your comprehension skills are very poor.

No, you're a lousy writer and I'm translating you into English.

You're completely misinterpreting the post. Maybe because you can't understand or maybe you don't want to understand.

The studies of the efficacy of bus lanes are out there. DDOT bases its decisions on that evidence. You are free also to find those studies and adjust your priors accordingly.

Except you don't have any interest in evidence. You have an interest in sustaining your own biases. You make ridiculous claims to reinforce your biases. It is pathetic.

Huh?

I'm the one saying show me any evidence whatsoever that any of the bus-only lanes that DC has had over the past five years have increased ridership.

You're the one saying DDOT does not make any effort to determine whether its projects do what it says they will do, although it sounds like you read a study once from 1985 about how a bus only lane in Copenhagen did something or other.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I just want to point out that within a few days this thread has almost hit 50 pages and so is on track to ramp up to the same amount as the Conn Ave bike lanes. Only proving that all of you people opposing the Conn Ave bike lanes because of entitled scofflaw cyclists or some shit are full of crap. You carbrain morons oppose anything that impedes your commute hard stop. Whether that's a bike lane, the goddamn streetcar, a bus lane, or a streetery. There's no negotiation or design consideration that DDOT or any advocates for any multimodal transportation because you can't get your head out of your ass long enough to take a step back and consider a bigger picture.

Ridiculous.

DDOT staff should come here and read this garbage so that the next time Nick Delledonne and crew show up to whine and moan they can just be ignored for the obstructionists they are.

The number of comments here is a good sign that this proposal is going to stir up an awful lot of controversy. It would be better if you have actual answers to the questions posted here. Otherwise this project is hopefully going to way of bike lanes on Connecticut.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I just want to point out that within a few days this thread has almost hit 50 pages and so is on track to ramp up to the same amount as the Conn Ave bike lanes. Only proving that all of you people opposing the Conn Ave bike lanes because of entitled scofflaw cyclists or some shit are full of crap. You carbrain morons oppose anything that impedes your commute hard stop. Whether that's a bike lane, the goddamn streetcar, a bus lane, or a streetery. There's no negotiation or design consideration that DDOT or any advocates for any multimodal transportation because you can't get your head out of your ass long enough to take a step back and consider a bigger picture.

Ridiculous.

DDOT staff should come here and read this garbage so that the next time Nick Delledonne and crew show up to whine and moan they can just be ignored for the obstructionists they are.

Or maybe. Just maybe. These ideas you are pushing are not popular among the population at large and would have a host of negative consequences.

Asking what has happened on 16th since these exact same measures were implemented in 2021 is not radical, obstructionist. whining, moaning or any other epithets you wish to spew. It is common sense and the basic foundation of sound policy making.

I am sorry that your deep seated hatred of fellow Washingtonians, general misanthropy, and evangelical zeal has clouded your judgement to such an extent that you feel personally threatened by such anodyne questions. I would never have imagined that such simple questions could engender a mental break. But here we are.

I'm the PP from before. I'm not against seeing what's happened with other protected bus-ways, at least, since the enforcement from the cameras on the buses has actually started. I would offer that it hasn't REALLY started yet, because its only this past week that DC is able to actually enforce jack shit against MD and VA drivers.

But anyway, you're just pulling the regular old "what-about-ism" that comes up on these threads. If DDOT were to produce those stats and they demonstrated a rise in bus ridership, a reduction in bus through-corridor times, then you'd start in making up all the reasons why 16th and GA or Penn Ave and GA or H St and GA aren't comparable. Just like when cyclists/DDOT brought up large numbers of studies - including local ones - that demonstrated ridership increases and safety improvements of bike lanes.

Because you don't actually give a shit. You just want to block the project.

Obstructionist jerk.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I just want to point out that within a few days this thread has almost hit 50 pages and so is on track to ramp up to the same amount as the Conn Ave bike lanes. Only proving that all of you people opposing the Conn Ave bike lanes because of entitled scofflaw cyclists or some shit are full of crap. You carbrain morons oppose anything that impedes your commute hard stop. Whether that's a bike lane, the goddamn streetcar, a bus lane, or a streetery. There's no negotiation or design consideration that DDOT or any advocates for any multimodal transportation because you can't get your head out of your ass long enough to take a step back and consider a bigger picture.

Ridiculous.

DDOT staff should come here and read this garbage so that the next time Nick Delledonne and crew show up to whine and moan they can just be ignored for the obstructionists they are.

The number of comments here is a good sign that this proposal is going to stir up an awful lot of controversy. It would be better if you have actual answers to the questions posted here. Otherwise this project is hopefully going to way of bike lanes on Connecticut.

Maybe it would be true if 50%+ of all the comments against everything didn't come from the same handful of posters making the exact same arguments over and over again. For some reason, as the PP noted, its the same people opposing everything on every corridor.

There are more people on any given bus on Georgia right now than there are people arguing against a bus lane.

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Anonymous wrote:As someone who is on Georgia almost every day, this plan is strange. Of all the Washingtonians who set foot on Georgia during a day, probably not one in a 100 takes the bus. It's pretty much just all cars.

What is the deal with this city wanting to created dedicated lanes to modes of transportation people don't really use? We have 150 miles of bike lanes for the city's approximately 150 bicyclists. We're going to create a bus lane on a street where only a tiny fraction of the people there using the street take the bus?

22,000 people take buses on Georgia Ave *every day.* That is 1/2 the people traveling on Georgia. It is the busiest bus corridor in DC.

https://ago-item-storage.s3.amazonaws.com/604a004ea0874e08be875c2eda2cfbdf/FAQs.pdf?X-Amz-Security-Token=IQoJb3JpZ2luX2VjENr%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2FwEaCXVzLWVhc3QtMSJHMEUCIQDTJtZylTcVyDE8RuINrBcBhWbin80B2D2GJD995wUi4QIgYzVkT9rXJZdFUjoc9cQYu%2Bolhi13EsLGuxBe1iuWqP0qtAUIMhAAGgw2MDQ3NTgxMDI2NjUiDME3OcyG6J0ANtZZRCqRBYQMWngcPj6ErP9CaQ%2FOJpr%2FJGGKehfT2l7TxMP1%2FWlNO0echg0JXnmmOz6HjtSQVgsHgnyOI9kQ7eEF7ItQAiP8XMWyCAfGtvDL8JFL3Uhahy2Zj3PfjIohzC3yW38kgZqODd%2BAsQX8MUIxyseOahs%2Bm68iQ2PnUCi56gH9i2BZXS3x926VPLaTzW7uuaNM1dmYTMWxoHloQO6GzJqi7CJkWATzJhrXP9eyjxT8UkHqXpGi3%2FxtttK%2BKPpgFbY2%2BnREeRZGJQg7CBSzyTbrekV9qi0vrfpZy%2BrDzBzaKlclU8uakaEBfHUPnhsB1Ugt0CPFpx9hERGp9DIHLo2%2BaMWmsog22vLbrTlTiDWlflkUeTKLUpo4mDrIuRQ7bLfapwixgDckUgJcK3EXEmSJx4NpFaIhm7IkEv61kmwmfBYos6DGXuZuOVM05bp1G2mAdPY6rzqTWHmGAhYcvHF%2B%2FrFtVJU9aXKGtGFB%2FWBd%2B1zTt1%2BVxZCOio9krJJ20tb22fbpQLv%2B2MZ%2FoxBvO%2FnDez4zbpRJflIODXXPhtJ1JQRCcFRO0oT%2B0i5a4djWsT%2FsTaj9JSPmmcDL%2BZ8kjSWseVjgZ8%2FacRFHaOcIe1nVGSiU%2BU73Zr7cKtohCXR6t67424a48Ufm4Vlzje338R5tj%2Bh14FKQaTXONqXxkvIBd%2BrIAeDXrNxC74wSTCTT23X3u2A9tO4OP5ZwZnSqmOl4xyb1a58fEjTIbRgEiRQIHqfv4B96w1zA1oFkD53KKD%2BJFO80btfven8w4a2Fa%2FJ8IHcliK9ADYT3wE6Sv%2FxO5Y00Mvquo%2BxsgCN7uYXZDXff%2BVoRK3ept9fFN0Wf1ZhhVe4PDobLKY2r3U02sIuVX7dEDzDFrpC4BjqxASjZEpFC668%2BbUTDQvJn56Zre2yCOegzuBJydimXxgs%2FhXIqJ6ERdRfyx8nuR80LbCiJ6CYRtQf6meAZyBeQzp8WQrkV8G92wMkVry5SM6vpy0s7ZIbIlVjQYiZU2wL7CbvGaQBOFWTJmw4N1V5uIEiY1fCTf41w8T0x69Ryx5UpbONKqTfw%2Fg5PP09R2pcrmISpnLWyl0JKUPH7QzQGQ%2FbNhySXWUOBKeMAr1a%2BHjqJ0g%3D%3D&X-Amz-Algorithm=AWS4-HMAC-SHA256&X-Amz-Date=20241007T180106Z&X-Amz-SignedHeaders=host&X-Amz-Expires=300&X-Amz-Credential=ASIAYZTTEKKEZGODYWHE%2F20241007%2Fus-east-1%2Fs3%2Faws4_request&X-Amz-Signature=c9e40009a9f4b058b221a019b001471e6e442f73f369d8737fe6ecfe55f4e44b

Half! Ha! What a lie. Go drive up and down on Georgia and count how many buses you see.

Ok well, if you think DDOT is literally lying then we don’t really have much to talk about. By they way buses can carry many times more people than cars and hence you’ll see fewer of them than cars yet they will still transport more people than cars. Math!!!

Yes, I do think DDOT is lying. Their flyer for this project says "safety is DDOT's #1 Priority on Georgia Avenue" but they dont mention at all how this plan will divert traffic off Georgia onto all the surrounding streets, where people (including tons of kids) actually live. I believe that's called lying by omission.

in fact there is a LENGTHY discussion of that

no, there isn't. the city actually says "the traffic modeling does not suggest drivers will choose side streets to make their existing trips," which i mean does anyone at ddot actually believe that?

There's a lot of odd assumptions in this plan. They say people will switch to using North Capitol. What?

There's a lot of odd assumptions in all these DDOT plans. Most of them seem to stem from working backwards and trying to justify the idea instead of looking at the data and moving forward.

The proponenets of these plans are also weirdly obsessed with Maryland and think nobody in DC takes these routes.

As for N. Capitol, it will be the last N-S route standing after strangling 16th and finishing off Connecticut and Georgia.

They frequently cite what they call similar bus projects in other, unnamed cities. "On peer city projects, bus ridership increased after the installation of bus lanes." But we already have more than 10 miles of bus only lanes here in DC. They could just use data from that. They don't, which is telling. If the numbers were good, they'd cited them. Instead we get vague references to what happened in other, unnamed cities.

We BARELY just started enforcing the bus lanes.

oh stop.

the city began rolling out bus-only lanes in 2019 and from the outset said it would vigorously enforce them.

"Starting today, the city will enforce the new rules, with two trucks nearby to haul any vehicles that park in the lanes, and police and traffic officers will ticket violators. The fine for driving or panking in the bus lanes is $200." --The Washington Post, June 3, 2019

https://www.washingtonpost.com/transportation/2019/06/03/these-lanes-are-buses-only-enforcement-new-downtown-bus-lanes-begins-opening-day/

Dude the automated bus camera just started this summer. Do some basic research NIMBY.

We've had automated bus camera enforcement for more than a year. As the Post story shows, we've had other forms of enforcement in some of these bus only lanes for five years.

Why can't we have *any* data on how *any of these 10+ miles of bus only lanes are doing? Why are we citing "girlfriend-in-Canada" numbers about what supposedly happened in unnamed cities?

We've actually had camera enforcement for about 10 months because the city kept delaying them. But that still doesnt answer the question of why there's no data on any bus lanes at all. They could put out what they have, but they're probably embarrassed by them. But if bus lanes aren't working the way the city said they would, then why create more of them?

there’s plenty of data that bus ridership rebounded post pandemic

That's completely meaningless. Of course, bus ridership is up from the time when everything in Washington DC was closed.

The only question that matters is how much bus only lanes increase ridership compared to what ridership was on those routes before the bus only lanes. We've had bus only lanes in this city for five years. How can there be literally no information about how it's gone?

I'll answer that: It's because bus only lanes didn't increase ridership at all, and the city doesnt want to admit it. But if bus only lanes don't increase ridership, then why would you create more of them?

OK, so if they don't increase ridership but the people who ride buses get to work much faster, is that a bad thing? I think it would be a positive that thousands of commuters could have their commutes cut down.

Not if you're simultaneously ruining the commutes of a far larger number of people. How is that progress.

NOW, car drivers want progress??!!

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Anonymous wrote:As someone who is on Georgia almost every day, this plan is strange. Of all the Washingtonians who set foot on Georgia during a day, probably not one in a 100 takes the bus. It's pretty much just all cars.

What is the deal with this city wanting to created dedicated lanes to modes of transportation people don't really use? We have 150 miles of bike lanes for the city's approximately 150 bicyclists. We're going to create a bus lane on a street where only a tiny fraction of the people there using the street take the bus?

22,000 people take buses on Georgia Ave *every day.* That is 1/2 the people traveling on Georgia. It is the busiest bus corridor in DC.

https://ago-item-storage.s3.amazonaws.com/604a004ea0874e08be875c2eda2cfbdf/FAQs.pdf?X-Amz-Security-Token=IQoJb3JpZ2luX2VjENr%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2FwEaCXVzLWVhc3QtMSJHMEUCIQDTJtZylTcVyDE8RuINrBcBhWbin80B2D2GJD995wUi4QIgYzVkT9rXJZdFUjoc9cQYu%2Bolhi13EsLGuxBe1iuWqP0qtAUIMhAAGgw2MDQ3NTgxMDI2NjUiDME3OcyG6J0ANtZZRCqRBYQMWngcPj6ErP9CaQ%2FOJpr%2FJGGKehfT2l7TxMP1%2FWlNO0echg0JXnmmOz6HjtSQVgsHgnyOI9kQ7eEF7ItQAiP8XMWyCAfGtvDL8JFL3Uhahy2Zj3PfjIohzC3yW38kgZqODd%2BAsQX8MUIxyseOahs%2Bm68iQ2PnUCi56gH9i2BZXS3x926VPLaTzW7uuaNM1dmYTMWxoHloQO6GzJqi7CJkWATzJhrXP9eyjxT8UkHqXpGi3%2FxtttK%2BKPpgFbY2%2BnREeRZGJQg7CBSzyTbrekV9qi0vrfpZy%2BrDzBzaKlclU8uakaEBfHUPnhsB1Ugt0CPFpx9hERGp9DIHLo2%2BaMWmsog22vLbrTlTiDWlflkUeTKLUpo4mDrIuRQ7bLfapwixgDckUgJcK3EXEmSJx4NpFaIhm7IkEv61kmwmfBYos6DGXuZuOVM05bp1G2mAdPY6rzqTWHmGAhYcvHF%2B%2FrFtVJU9aXKGtGFB%2FWBd%2B1zTt1%2BVxZCOio9krJJ20tb22fbpQLv%2B2MZ%2FoxBvO%2FnDez4zbpRJflIODXXPhtJ1JQRCcFRO0oT%2B0i5a4djWsT%2FsTaj9JSPmmcDL%2BZ8kjSWseVjgZ8%2FacRFHaOcIe1nVGSiU%2BU73Zr7cKtohCXR6t67424a48Ufm4Vlzje338R5tj%2Bh14FKQaTXONqXxkvIBd%2BrIAeDXrNxC74wSTCTT23X3u2A9tO4OP5ZwZnSqmOl4xyb1a58fEjTIbRgEiRQIHqfv4B96w1zA1oFkD53KKD%2BJFO80btfven8w4a2Fa%2FJ8IHcliK9ADYT3wE6Sv%2FxO5Y00Mvquo%2BxsgCN7uYXZDXff%2BVoRK3ept9fFN0Wf1ZhhVe4PDobLKY2r3U02sIuVX7dEDzDFrpC4BjqxASjZEpFC668%2BbUTDQvJn56Zre2yCOegzuBJydimXxgs%2FhXIqJ6ERdRfyx8nuR80LbCiJ6CYRtQf6meAZyBeQzp8WQrkV8G92wMkVry5SM6vpy0s7ZIbIlVjQYiZU2wL7CbvGaQBOFWTJmw4N1V5uIEiY1fCTf41w8T0x69Ryx5UpbONKqTfw%2Fg5PP09R2pcrmISpnLWyl0JKUPH7QzQGQ%2FbNhySXWUOBKeMAr1a%2BHjqJ0g%3D%3D&X-Amz-Algorithm=AWS4-HMAC-SHA256&X-Amz-Date=20241007T180106Z&X-Amz-SignedHeaders=host&X-Amz-Expires=300&X-Amz-Credential=ASIAYZTTEKKEZGODYWHE%2F20241007%2Fus-east-1%2Fs3%2Faws4_request&X-Amz-Signature=c9e40009a9f4b058b221a019b001471e6e442f73f369d8737fe6ecfe55f4e44b

Half! Ha! What a lie. Go drive up and down on Georgia and count how many buses you see.

Ok well, if you think DDOT is literally lying then we don’t really have much to talk about. By they way buses can carry many times more people than cars and hence you’ll see fewer of them than cars yet they will still transport more people than cars. Math!!!

Yes, I do think DDOT is lying. Their flyer for this project says "safety is DDOT's #1 Priority on Georgia Avenue" but they dont mention at all how this plan will divert traffic off Georgia onto all the surrounding streets, where people (including tons of kids) actually live. I believe that's called lying by omission.

in fact there is a LENGTHY discussion of that

no, there isn't. the city actually says "the traffic modeling does not suggest drivers will choose side streets to make their existing trips," which i mean does anyone at ddot actually believe that?

There's a lot of odd assumptions in this plan. They say people will switch to using North Capitol. What?

There's a lot of odd assumptions in all these DDOT plans. Most of them seem to stem from working backwards and trying to justify the idea instead of looking at the data and moving forward.

The proponenets of these plans are also weirdly obsessed with Maryland and think nobody in DC takes these routes.

As for N. Capitol, it will be the last N-S route standing after strangling 16th and finishing off Connecticut and Georgia.

They frequently cite what they call similar bus projects in other, unnamed cities. "On peer city projects, bus ridership increased after the installation of bus lanes." But we already have more than 10 miles of bus only lanes here in DC. They could just use data from that. They don't, which is telling. If the numbers were good, they'd cited them. Instead we get vague references to what happened in other, unnamed cities.

We BARELY just started enforcing the bus lanes.

oh stop.

the city began rolling out bus-only lanes in 2019 and from the outset said it would vigorously enforce them.

"Starting today, the city will enforce the new rules, with two trucks nearby to haul any vehicles that park in the lanes, and police and traffic officers will ticket violators. The fine for driving or panking in the bus lanes is $200." --The Washington Post, June 3, 2019

https://www.washingtonpost.com/transportation/2019/06/03/these-lanes-are-buses-only-enforcement-new-downtown-bus-lanes-begins-opening-day/

Dude the automated bus camera just started this summer. Do some basic research NIMBY.

We've had automated bus camera enforcement for more than a year. As the Post story shows, we've had other forms of enforcement in some of these bus only lanes for five years.

Why can't we have *any* data on how *any of these 10+ miles of bus only lanes are doing? Why are we citing "girlfriend-in-Canada" numbers about what supposedly happened in unnamed cities?

We've actually had camera enforcement for about 10 months because the city kept delaying them. But that still doesnt answer the question of why there's no data on any bus lanes at all. They could put out what they have, but they're probably embarrassed by them. But if bus lanes aren't working the way the city said they would, then why create more of them?

If you're really that curious, you can start by requesting years of bus geolocation data from WMATA. That dataset will take some cleaning but where there's a will there's a way. Next you'll have to find yourself a good natural experiment by comparing differences in on-time performance along routes with bus lanes to like routes without bus lanes. This will be a challenge because there are only about a half dozen bus lanes and they are placed along routes that really aren't like any other routes in the city. Don't forget to account for the fact that the installation of the bus lanes - and enforcement thereof - coincided with an event that disrupted and then gradually restored vehicular traffic like nothing else in human history. Inevitably, whatever findings you obtain will be highly sensitive to alternative modeling choices and probably won't convince anyone who understands the slightest thing about bus lanes or causal inference. Of course, you could alternatively do the sensible thing and observe what most of us are seeing with our own eyes and that is that buses tend to move much faster when they are not routinely blocked by traffic.

Kind of seems like DDOT's job doesn't it?

Go back and read the stories from 2019 when the city began rolling out bus only lanes. So many big promises! They said it would be so much easier to get around and some blocks would see 70 buses (?!) per hour and how the city stands ready to ticket and tow anyone blocking the lanes.

So how did that work out? Shouldn't DDOT be able to answer the question now, five years later, especially if they want to build more bus only lanes?

Instead we get this, in their pitch for the Georgia Avenue project: "On peer city projects, bus ridership increased after the installation of bus lanes." Certainly sounds like bus ridership did *not* increase in DC projects or they would have said so.

Something tells me that you wouldn't believe any study authored by DDOT. And, no, DDOT's job is not to write sophisticated quasi-experimental analyses of policy interventions. That is the job of professional social scientists. And a few studies of the efficacy of bus lanes have been written. And they are out there for you to find. But because you are so invested in your little conspiracy theory. I can't say I expect you to go out and find them and, even if you did, I can't say I'd expect the studies to shift your priors.

So basically you're saying DDOT has no idea what, if anything, creating bus only lanes will accomplish, and that all of its big promises here are based on literally nothing. Gotcha. Wow.

Your comprehension skills are very poor.

No, you're a lousy writer and I'm translating you into English.

You're completely misinterpreting the post. Maybe because you can't understand or maybe you don't want to understand.

The studies of the efficacy of bus lanes are out there. DDOT bases its decisions on that evidence. You are free also to find those studies and adjust your priors accordingly.

Except you don't have any interest in evidence. You have an interest in sustaining your own biases. You make ridiculous claims to reinforce your biases. It is pathetic.

Huh?

I'm the one saying show me any evidence whatsoever that any of the bus-only lanes that DC has had over the past five years have increased ridership.

You're the one saying DDOT does not make any effort to determine whether its projects do what it says they will do, although it sounds like you read a study once from 1985 about how a bus only lane in Copenhagen did something or other.

+1

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Anonymous wrote:As someone who is on Georgia almost every day, this plan is strange. Of all the Washingtonians who set foot on Georgia during a day, probably not one in a 100 takes the bus. It's pretty much just all cars.

What is the deal with this city wanting to created dedicated lanes to modes of transportation people don't really use? We have 150 miles of bike lanes for the city's approximately 150 bicyclists. We're going to create a bus lane on a street where only a tiny fraction of the people there using the street take the bus?

22,000 people take buses on Georgia Ave *every day.* That is 1/2 the people traveling on Georgia. It is the busiest bus corridor in DC.

https://ago-item-storage.s3.amazonaws.com/604a004ea0874e08be875c2eda2cfbdf/FAQs.pdf?X-Amz-Security-Token=IQoJb3JpZ2luX2VjENr%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2FwEaCXVzLWVhc3QtMSJHMEUCIQDTJtZylTcVyDE8RuINrBcBhWbin80B2D2GJD995wUi4QIgYzVkT9rXJZdFUjoc9cQYu%2Bolhi13EsLGuxBe1iuWqP0qtAUIMhAAGgw2MDQ3NTgxMDI2NjUiDME3OcyG6J0ANtZZRCqRBYQMWngcPj6ErP9CaQ%2FOJpr%2FJGGKehfT2l7TxMP1%2FWlNO0echg0JXnmmOz6HjtSQVgsHgnyOI9kQ7eEF7ItQAiP8XMWyCAfGtvDL8JFL3Uhahy2Zj3PfjIohzC3yW38kgZqODd%2BAsQX8MUIxyseOahs%2Bm68iQ2PnUCi56gH9i2BZXS3x926VPLaTzW7uuaNM1dmYTMWxoHloQO6GzJqi7CJkWATzJhrXP9eyjxT8UkHqXpGi3%2FxtttK%2BKPpgFbY2%2BnREeRZGJQg7CBSzyTbrekV9qi0vrfpZy%2BrDzBzaKlclU8uakaEBfHUPnhsB1Ugt0CPFpx9hERGp9DIHLo2%2BaMWmsog22vLbrTlTiDWlflkUeTKLUpo4mDrIuRQ7bLfapwixgDckUgJcK3EXEmSJx4NpFaIhm7IkEv61kmwmfBYos6DGXuZuOVM05bp1G2mAdPY6rzqTWHmGAhYcvHF%2B%2FrFtVJU9aXKGtGFB%2FWBd%2B1zTt1%2BVxZCOio9krJJ20tb22fbpQLv%2B2MZ%2FoxBvO%2FnDez4zbpRJflIODXXPhtJ1JQRCcFRO0oT%2B0i5a4djWsT%2FsTaj9JSPmmcDL%2BZ8kjSWseVjgZ8%2FacRFHaOcIe1nVGSiU%2BU73Zr7cKtohCXR6t67424a48Ufm4Vlzje338R5tj%2Bh14FKQaTXONqXxkvIBd%2BrIAeDXrNxC74wSTCTT23X3u2A9tO4OP5ZwZnSqmOl4xyb1a58fEjTIbRgEiRQIHqfv4B96w1zA1oFkD53KKD%2BJFO80btfven8w4a2Fa%2FJ8IHcliK9ADYT3wE6Sv%2FxO5Y00Mvquo%2BxsgCN7uYXZDXff%2BVoRK3ept9fFN0Wf1ZhhVe4PDobLKY2r3U02sIuVX7dEDzDFrpC4BjqxASjZEpFC668%2BbUTDQvJn56Zre2yCOegzuBJydimXxgs%2FhXIqJ6ERdRfyx8nuR80LbCiJ6CYRtQf6meAZyBeQzp8WQrkV8G92wMkVry5SM6vpy0s7ZIbIlVjQYiZU2wL7CbvGaQBOFWTJmw4N1V5uIEiY1fCTf41w8T0x69Ryx5UpbONKqTfw%2Fg5PP09R2pcrmISpnLWyl0JKUPH7QzQGQ%2FbNhySXWUOBKeMAr1a%2BHjqJ0g%3D%3D&X-Amz-Algorithm=AWS4-HMAC-SHA256&X-Amz-Date=20241007T180106Z&X-Amz-SignedHeaders=host&X-Amz-Expires=300&X-Amz-Credential=ASIAYZTTEKKEZGODYWHE%2F20241007%2Fus-east-1%2Fs3%2Faws4_request&X-Amz-Signature=c9e40009a9f4b058b221a019b001471e6e442f73f369d8737fe6ecfe55f4e44b

Half! Ha! What a lie. Go drive up and down on Georgia and count how many buses you see.

Ok well, if you think DDOT is literally lying then we don’t really have much to talk about. By they way buses can carry many times more people than cars and hence you’ll see fewer of them than cars yet they will still transport more people than cars. Math!!!

Yes, I do think DDOT is lying. Their flyer for this project says "safety is DDOT's #1 Priority on Georgia Avenue" but they dont mention at all how this plan will divert traffic off Georgia onto all the surrounding streets, where people (including tons of kids) actually live. I believe that's called lying by omission.

in fact there is a LENGTHY discussion of that

no, there isn't. the city actually says "the traffic modeling does not suggest drivers will choose side streets to make their existing trips," which i mean does anyone at ddot actually believe that?

There's a lot of odd assumptions in this plan. They say people will switch to using North Capitol. What?

There's a lot of odd assumptions in all these DDOT plans. Most of them seem to stem from working backwards and trying to justify the idea instead of looking at the data and moving forward.

The proponenets of these plans are also weirdly obsessed with Maryland and think nobody in DC takes these routes.

As for N. Capitol, it will be the last N-S route standing after strangling 16th and finishing off Connecticut and Georgia.

They frequently cite what they call similar bus projects in other, unnamed cities. "On peer city projects, bus ridership increased after the installation of bus lanes." But we already have more than 10 miles of bus only lanes here in DC. They could just use data from that. They don't, which is telling. If the numbers were good, they'd cited them. Instead we get vague references to what happened in other, unnamed cities.

We BARELY just started enforcing the bus lanes.

oh stop.

the city began rolling out bus-only lanes in 2019 and from the outset said it would vigorously enforce them.

"Starting today, the city will enforce the new rules, with two trucks nearby to haul any vehicles that park in the lanes, and police and traffic officers will ticket violators. The fine for driving or panking in the bus lanes is $200." --The Washington Post, June 3, 2019

https://www.washingtonpost.com/transportation/2019/06/03/these-lanes-are-buses-only-enforcement-new-downtown-bus-lanes-begins-opening-day/

Dude the automated bus camera just started this summer. Do some basic research NIMBY.

We've had automated bus camera enforcement for more than a year. As the Post story shows, we've had other forms of enforcement in some of these bus only lanes for five years.

Why can't we have *any* data on how *any of these 10+ miles of bus only lanes are doing? Why are we citing "girlfriend-in-Canada" numbers about what supposedly happened in unnamed cities?

We've actually had camera enforcement for about 10 months because the city kept delaying them. But that still doesnt answer the question of why there's no data on any bus lanes at all. They could put out what they have, but they're probably embarrassed by them. But if bus lanes aren't working the way the city said they would, then why create more of them?

If you're really that curious, you can start by requesting years of bus geolocation data from WMATA. That dataset will take some cleaning but where there's a will there's a way. Next you'll have to find yourself a good natural experiment by comparing differences in on-time performance along routes with bus lanes to like routes without bus lanes. This will be a challenge because there are only about a half dozen bus lanes and they are placed along routes that really aren't like any other routes in the city. Don't forget to account for the fact that the installation of the bus lanes - and enforcement thereof - coincided with an event that disrupted and then gradually restored vehicular traffic like nothing else in human history. Inevitably, whatever findings you obtain will be highly sensitive to alternative modeling choices and probably won't convince anyone who understands the slightest thing about bus lanes or causal inference. Of course, you could alternatively do the sensible thing and observe what most of us are seeing with our own eyes and that is that buses tend to move much faster when they are not routinely blocked by traffic.

16th and Georgia are extremely alike. The buses even share a terminus in Silver Spring. You sound like you're trying to cover something up even though you probably just don't know anything about either of those two streets.

Great. You have a sample size of two. Next time, please pay attention in statistics class.

WTF? This isn't complicated. A lot of grand promises were made about 16th and are being repeated for Georgia. They are twins. It's basic common sense to look at the impact from the first one before starting the second one. Especially because there's two whole years of data.

If that policy were applied to roads and highways, no DOT would ever widen another road or highway to "fix congestion". And yet.

Huh? You don't make any sense.

An experimental policy was implemented 3.5 years ago. Before it was implemented claims were made about safety, congestion, diverted traffic and bus ridership. Now the exact same experimental policy has been proposed for another street and the same claims are being made. This new street is strikingly similar to the previous street. It doesn't make sense to ignore whatever has happened on the first street. Maybe the claims were true maybe they weren't.

Either way it makes sense to look at what is currently happening on 16th in order to predict what might happen on Georgia under the same circumstances.

Only a fool goes into production before testing the prototype.

Bus lanes are not "an experimental policy".

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Anonymous wrote:I just want to point out that within a few days this thread has almost hit 50 pages and so is on track to ramp up to the same amount as the Conn Ave bike lanes. Only proving that all of you people opposing the Conn Ave bike lanes because of entitled scofflaw cyclists or some shit are full of crap. You carbrain morons oppose anything that impedes your commute hard stop. Whether that's a bike lane, the goddamn streetcar, a bus lane, or a streetery. There's no negotiation or design consideration that DDOT or any advocates for any multimodal transportation because you can't get your head out of your ass long enough to take a step back and consider a bigger picture.

Ridiculous.

DDOT staff should come here and read this garbage so that the next time Nick Delledonne and crew show up to whine and moan they can just be ignored for the obstructionists they are.

Or maybe. Just maybe. These ideas you are pushing are not popular among the population at large and would have a host of negative consequences.

Asking what has happened on 16th since these exact same measures were implemented in 2021 is not radical, obstructionist. whining, moaning or any other epithets you wish to spew. It is common sense and the basic foundation of sound policy making.

I am sorry that your deep seated hatred of fellow Washingtonians, general misanthropy, and evangelical zeal has clouded your judgement to such an extent that you feel personally threatened by such anodyne questions. I would never have imagined that such simple questions could engender a mental break. But here we are.

I'm the PP from before. I'm not against seeing what's happened with other protected bus-ways, at least, since the enforcement from the cameras on the buses has actually started. I would offer that it hasn't REALLY started yet, because its only this past week that DC is able to actually enforce jack shit against MD and VA drivers.

But anyway, you're just pulling the regular old "what-about-ism" that comes up on these threads. If DDOT were to produce those stats and they demonstrated a rise in bus ridership, a reduction in bus through-corridor times, then you'd start in making up all the reasons why 16th and GA or Penn Ave and GA or H St and GA aren't comparable. Just like when cyclists/DDOT brought up large numbers of studies - including local ones - that demonstrated ridership increases and safety improvements of bike lanes.

Because you don't actually give a shit. You just want to block the project.

Obstructionist jerk.

The projection and lying is unreal. How can someone be so aggressive and yet such a victim?

I mainly care about the spillover traffic and the safety issues that causes. I care because I use these roads. The numers for both of those things should be artificially lower from the lack of enforcement and initially lower post-pandemic traffic amounts.

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Anonymous wrote:As someone who is on Georgia almost every day, this plan is strange. Of all the Washingtonians who set foot on Georgia during a day, probably not one in a 100 takes the bus. It's pretty much just all cars.

What is the deal with this city wanting to created dedicated lanes to modes of transportation people don't really use? We have 150 miles of bike lanes for the city's approximately 150 bicyclists. We're going to create a bus lane on a street where only a tiny fraction of the people there using the street take the bus?

22,000 people take buses on Georgia Ave *every day.* That is 1/2 the people traveling on Georgia. It is the busiest bus corridor in DC.

https://ago-item-storage.s3.amazonaws.com/604a004ea0874e08be875c2eda2cfbdf/FAQs.pdf?X-Amz-Security-Token=IQoJb3JpZ2luX2VjENr%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2FwEaCXVzLWVhc3QtMSJHMEUCIQDTJtZylTcVyDE8RuINrBcBhWbin80B2D2GJD995wUi4QIgYzVkT9rXJZdFUjoc9cQYu%2Bolhi13EsLGuxBe1iuWqP0qtAUIMhAAGgw2MDQ3NTgxMDI2NjUiDME3OcyG6J0ANtZZRCqRBYQMWngcPj6ErP9CaQ%2FOJpr%2FJGGKehfT2l7TxMP1%2FWlNO0echg0JXnmmOz6HjtSQVgsHgnyOI9kQ7eEF7ItQAiP8XMWyCAfGtvDL8JFL3Uhahy2Zj3PfjIohzC3yW38kgZqODd%2BAsQX8MUIxyseOahs%2Bm68iQ2PnUCi56gH9i2BZXS3x926VPLaTzW7uuaNM1dmYTMWxoHloQO6GzJqi7CJkWATzJhrXP9eyjxT8UkHqXpGi3%2FxtttK%2BKPpgFbY2%2BnREeRZGJQg7CBSzyTbrekV9qi0vrfpZy%2BrDzBzaKlclU8uakaEBfHUPnhsB1Ugt0CPFpx9hERGp9DIHLo2%2BaMWmsog22vLbrTlTiDWlflkUeTKLUpo4mDrIuRQ7bLfapwixgDckUgJcK3EXEmSJx4NpFaIhm7IkEv61kmwmfBYos6DGXuZuOVM05bp1G2mAdPY6rzqTWHmGAhYcvHF%2B%2FrFtVJU9aXKGtGFB%2FWBd%2B1zTt1%2BVxZCOio9krJJ20tb22fbpQLv%2B2MZ%2FoxBvO%2FnDez4zbpRJflIODXXPhtJ1JQRCcFRO0oT%2B0i5a4djWsT%2FsTaj9JSPmmcDL%2BZ8kjSWseVjgZ8%2FacRFHaOcIe1nVGSiU%2BU73Zr7cKtohCXR6t67424a48Ufm4Vlzje338R5tj%2Bh14FKQaTXONqXxkvIBd%2BrIAeDXrNxC74wSTCTT23X3u2A9tO4OP5ZwZnSqmOl4xyb1a58fEjTIbRgEiRQIHqfv4B96w1zA1oFkD53KKD%2BJFO80btfven8w4a2Fa%2FJ8IHcliK9ADYT3wE6Sv%2FxO5Y00Mvquo%2BxsgCN7uYXZDXff%2BVoRK3ept9fFN0Wf1ZhhVe4PDobLKY2r3U02sIuVX7dEDzDFrpC4BjqxASjZEpFC668%2BbUTDQvJn56Zre2yCOegzuBJydimXxgs%2FhXIqJ6ERdRfyx8nuR80LbCiJ6CYRtQf6meAZyBeQzp8WQrkV8G92wMkVry5SM6vpy0s7ZIbIlVjQYiZU2wL7CbvGaQBOFWTJmw4N1V5uIEiY1fCTf41w8T0x69Ryx5UpbONKqTfw%2Fg5PP09R2pcrmISpnLWyl0JKUPH7QzQGQ%2FbNhySXWUOBKeMAr1a%2BHjqJ0g%3D%3D&X-Amz-Algorithm=AWS4-HMAC-SHA256&X-Amz-Date=20241007T180106Z&X-Amz-SignedHeaders=host&X-Amz-Expires=300&X-Amz-Credential=ASIAYZTTEKKEZGODYWHE%2F20241007%2Fus-east-1%2Fs3%2Faws4_request&X-Amz-Signature=c9e40009a9f4b058b221a019b001471e6e442f73f369d8737fe6ecfe55f4e44b

Half! Ha! What a lie. Go drive up and down on Georgia and count how many buses you see.

Ok well, if you think DDOT is literally lying then we don’t really have much to talk about. By they way buses can carry many times more people than cars and hence you’ll see fewer of them than cars yet they will still transport more people than cars. Math!!!

Yes, I do think DDOT is lying. Their flyer for this project says "safety is DDOT's #1 Priority on Georgia Avenue" but they dont mention at all how this plan will divert traffic off Georgia onto all the surrounding streets, where people (including tons of kids) actually live. I believe that's called lying by omission.

in fact there is a LENGTHY discussion of that

no, there isn't. the city actually says "the traffic modeling does not suggest drivers will choose side streets to make their existing trips," which i mean does anyone at ddot actually believe that?

There's a lot of odd assumptions in this plan. They say people will switch to using North Capitol. What?

There's a lot of odd assumptions in all these DDOT plans. Most of them seem to stem from working backwards and trying to justify the idea instead of looking at the data and moving forward.

The proponenets of these plans are also weirdly obsessed with Maryland and think nobody in DC takes these routes.

As for N. Capitol, it will be the last N-S route standing after strangling 16th and finishing off Connecticut and Georgia.

They frequently cite what they call similar bus projects in other, unnamed cities. "On peer city projects, bus ridership increased after the installation of bus lanes." But we already have more than 10 miles of bus only lanes here in DC. They could just use data from that. They don't, which is telling. If the numbers were good, they'd cited them. Instead we get vague references to what happened in other, unnamed cities.

We BARELY just started enforcing the bus lanes.

oh stop.

the city began rolling out bus-only lanes in 2019 and from the outset said it would vigorously enforce them.

"Starting today, the city will enforce the new rules, with two trucks nearby to haul any vehicles that park in the lanes, and police and traffic officers will ticket violators. The fine for driving or panking in the bus lanes is $200." --The Washington Post, June 3, 2019

https://www.washingtonpost.com/transportation/2019/06/03/these-lanes-are-buses-only-enforcement-new-downtown-bus-lanes-begins-opening-day/

Dude the automated bus camera just started this summer. Do some basic research NIMBY.

We've had automated bus camera enforcement for more than a year. As the Post story shows, we've had other forms of enforcement in some of these bus only lanes for five years.

Why can't we have *any* data on how *any of these 10+ miles of bus only lanes are doing? Why are we citing "girlfriend-in-Canada" numbers about what supposedly happened in unnamed cities?

We've actually had camera enforcement for about 10 months because the city kept delaying them. But that still doesnt answer the question of why there's no data on any bus lanes at all. They could put out what they have, but they're probably embarrassed by them. But if bus lanes aren't working the way the city said they would, then why create more of them?

If you're really that curious, you can start by requesting years of bus geolocation data from WMATA. That dataset will take some cleaning but where there's a will there's a way. Next you'll have to find yourself a good natural experiment by comparing differences in on-time performance along routes with bus lanes to like routes without bus lanes. This will be a challenge because there are only about a half dozen bus lanes and they are placed along routes that really aren't like any other routes in the city. Don't forget to account for the fact that the installation of the bus lanes - and enforcement thereof - coincided with an event that disrupted and then gradually restored vehicular traffic like nothing else in human history. Inevitably, whatever findings you obtain will be highly sensitive to alternative modeling choices and probably won't convince anyone who understands the slightest thing about bus lanes or causal inference. Of course, you could alternatively do the sensible thing and observe what most of us are seeing with our own eyes and that is that buses tend to move much faster when they are not routinely blocked by traffic.

16th and Georgia are extremely alike. The buses even share a terminus in Silver Spring. You sound like you're trying to cover something up even though you probably just don't know anything about either of those two streets.

Great. You have a sample size of two. Next time, please pay attention in statistics class.

WTF? This isn't complicated. A lot of grand promises were made about 16th and are being repeated for Georgia. They are twins. It's basic common sense to look at the impact from the first one before starting the second one. Especially because there's two whole years of data.

If that policy were applied to roads and highways, no DOT would ever widen another road or highway to "fix congestion". And yet.

Huh? You don't make any sense.

An experimental policy was implemented 3.5 years ago. Before it was implemented claims were made about safety, congestion, diverted traffic and bus ridership. Now the exact same experimental policy has been proposed for another street and the same claims are being made. This new street is strikingly similar to the previous street. It doesn't make sense to ignore whatever has happened on the first street. Maybe the claims were true maybe they weren't.

Either way it makes sense to look at what is currently happening on 16th in order to predict what might happen on Georgia under the same circumstances.

Only a fool goes into production before testing the prototype.

Bus lanes are not "an experimental policy".

I guess you missed the part where you said it was based on experimental research.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I just want to point out that within a few days this thread has almost hit 50 pages and so is on track to ramp up to the same amount as the Conn Ave bike lanes. Only proving that all of you people opposing the Conn Ave bike lanes because of entitled scofflaw cyclists or some shit are full of crap. You carbrain morons oppose anything that impedes your commute hard stop. Whether that's a bike lane, the goddamn streetcar, a bus lane, or a streetery. There's no negotiation or design consideration that DDOT or any advocates for any multimodal transportation because you can't get your head out of your ass long enough to take a step back and consider a bigger picture.

Ridiculous.

DDOT staff should come here and read this garbage so that the next time Nick Delledonne and crew show up to whine and moan they can just be ignored for the obstructionists they are.

Or maybe. Just maybe. These ideas you are pushing are not popular among the population at large and would have a host of negative consequences.

Asking what has happened on 16th since these exact same measures were implemented in 2021 is not radical, obstructionist. whining, moaning or any other epithets you wish to spew. It is common sense and the basic foundation of sound policy making.

I am sorry that your deep seated hatred of fellow Washingtonians, general misanthropy, and evangelical zeal has clouded your judgement to such an extent that you feel personally threatened by such anodyne questions. I would never have imagined that such simple questions could engender a mental break. But here we are.

I'm the PP from before. I'm not against seeing what's happened with other protected bus-ways, at least, since the enforcement from the cameras on the buses has actually started. I would offer that it hasn't REALLY started yet, because its only this past week that DC is able to actually enforce jack shit against MD and VA drivers.

But anyway, you're just pulling the regular old "what-about-ism" that comes up on these threads. If DDOT were to produce those stats and they demonstrated a rise in bus ridership, a reduction in bus through-corridor times, then you'd start in making up all the reasons why 16th and GA or Penn Ave and GA or H St and GA aren't comparable. Just like when cyclists/DDOT brought up large numbers of studies - including local ones - that demonstrated ridership increases and safety improvements of bike lanes.

Because you don't actually give a shit. You just want to block the project.

Obstructionist jerk.

You should try making substantive arguments in favor of the bus only lanes. If they're such a good idea, they shouldn't be hard to sell. Your little hissy fits convince no one.