what's with local pols opposing expanding 270 and 495?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Prove this. Show me proof that not expanding an overburdened system provides relief to the current gridlock.
What is your solution? TO pray the traffic away? Do you take Metro? It's beyond woeful. It is NOT a viable solution. It is not a transportation system. It is a jobs program. It is not going to provide relief, it is not going to take many cars off the road. So what do you propose to deal with the CURRENT gridlock which is only going to get worse?

At this point, you're basically asking the PP to show you proof that gravity is what keeps you from floating off into space. That's how well-established the theory of induced demand is.

So doing nothing is the solution? Despite knowing more people are moving further out? There is already gridlock. Does expending metro mean more people take metro? So why does it with roads?

No, nobody is proposing doing nothing.

Yes, when Metro runs better/more convenient service, then more people take Metro.

This is actually from an Australian satire TV show, but it's an outstanding explanation of the theory of induced demand as applied to road widening: https://www.facebook.com/ABCTV/videos/simulated-solutions-utopia-watch-full-season-now-on-iview/806088466514123/ (Economists can quibble about whether or not that actually is an example of Jevons paradox. I am not an economist.)

Metro is NEVER going to operate competently. NEVER.

I took Metro down town for 20 years. Most of the time..I sat and read a book and it got me to work as expected. The number of times I was more than 10 minutes delayed was quite small. I know it is not the solution for everyone but it moves lots of people pretty well. No way I would sit in traffic on the beltway.

I’m not sure when you stopped taking Metro but that last decade has been brutal. They have had nonstop fare hikes and increased parking fees such that it is cheaper to drive and park downtown (not counting wear and tear) and then added to that, it’s been fewer trains so they are packed before they get to Medical Center and the reliability was a disgrace. I lost a lot of money over the years on huge after care late fees because Metros unreliability. I’m not interested in taking it anymore once this pandemic is over and if I have to go back downtown again. I’m not doing it.

DP, I have been riding metro since I was in elementary school. You can count on one hand the number of times I have been significantly delayed for any reason.

You obviously don't use it to commute. Beyond the horrible service, arcing insulators, fires, crashes, they also close lines down, a whole bunch of stations, for months on end, for renovations. The escalators don't work. The system is a nightmare. If they had a japanese style system here, I agree it would be better and possibly a viable alternative to driving. But that's not what we have we. We have a national embarrassment. A disgrace.

DP-- I use it to commute (or I did in non-pandemic times). And like PP, I was almost never late because of a metro delay.

But you're right -- it could definitely be improved. It's almost as if it would benefit from more funding, perhaps the funding that we're currently considering using to build more roads which we KNOW doesn't help.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I concur, it's cheaper to drive if you don't work downtown than take the metro. FOr example if I were to take public transit to my current job, it would take at least 2 hours each way, I'd pay the maximum fare both ways and pay the metro parking fee. Instead I drive on roads that are subsidized for your use, takes about 45 minutes each way, and there's free parking at work.someone paid for the parking, it just isn't you. It is most liklely me in the form of subsidies to your employer

IOW if you paid the actual costs for your commute, metro would be more cost effective.

How much would Metro cost without subsidies? It would still be substantially more expensive than traveling a similar distance by car if roads were not subsidized. The fare would probably be a totally ridiculous. People forget that the streetcars went bankrupt. They just think they disappeared only through some Detroit conspiracy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

You obviously don't use it to commute. Beyond the horrible service, arcing insulators, fires, crashes, they also close lines down, a whole bunch of stations, for months on end, for renovations. The escalators don't work. The system is a nightmare. If they had a japanese style system here, I agree it would be better and possibly a viable alternative to driving. But that's not what we have we. We have a national embarrassment. A disgrace.

The driving equivalent of all of these things happen when you're driving on the roads - especially fires and crashes. How many times have you been delayed by a crash while driving? That's like half of the morning "drive time" news.

THIS!!!! I used to drive to Ft Meade and use BWI Pkwy (got on right at Bladensburg) and EVERY.FREAKIN.MORNING there was an accident or stalled car that caused a delay both in the morning and evenings. I work downtown now and take metro all of 5 stops (reason why I changed jobs) and would not ever go back to commuting on these roads! It's INSANE! Yes, the RL can be troublesome occasionally, but you cannot get me back on these roads, (well, maybe if my salary was doubled )

Yep, Metro has around an 89% on time percentage, which is defined as no more than a 3 minute delay from the normal schedule. Expand that to 5 minutes and you're looking at 90%+.

Any DC driver that says 9 out of 10 drives have less than 5 minutes of delays is straight up lying.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Prove this. Show me proof that not expanding an overburdened system provides relief to the current gridlock.
What is your solution? TO pray the traffic away? Do you take Metro? It's beyond woeful. It is NOT a viable solution. It is not a transportation system. It is a jobs program. It is not going to provide relief, it is not going to take many cars off the road. So what do you propose to deal with the CURRENT gridlock which is only going to get worse?

At this point, you're basically asking the PP to show you proof that gravity is what keeps you from floating off into space. That's how well-established the theory of induced demand is.

So doing nothing is the solution? Despite knowing more people are moving further out? There is already gridlock. Does expending metro mean more people take metro? So why does it with roads?

No, nobody is proposing doing nothing.

Yes, when Metro runs better/more convenient service, then more people take Metro.

This is actually from an Australian satire TV show, but it's an outstanding explanation of the theory of induced demand as applied to road widening: https://www.facebook.com/ABCTV/videos/simulated-solutions-utopia-watch-full-season-now-on-iview/806088466514123/ (Economists can quibble about whether or not that actually is an example of Jevons paradox. I am not an economist.)

Metro is NEVER going to operate competently. NEVER.

I took Metro down town for 20 years. Most of the time..I sat and read a book and it got me to work as expected. The number of times I was more than 10 minutes delayed was quite small. I know it is not the solution for everyone but it moves lots of people pretty well. No way I would sit in traffic on the beltway.

I’m not sure when you stopped taking Metro but that last decade has been brutal. They have had nonstop fare hikes and increased parking fees such that it is cheaper to drive and park downtown (not counting wear and tear) and then added to that, it’s been fewer trains so they are packed before they get to Medical Center and the reliability was a disgrace. I lost a lot of money over the years on huge after care late fees because Metros unreliability. I’m not interested in taking it anymore once this pandemic is over and if I have to go back downtown again. I’m not doing it.

DP, I have been riding metro since I was in elementary school. You can count on one hand the number of times I have been significantly delayed for any reason.

You obviously don't use it to commute. Beyond the horrible service, arcing insulators, fires, crashes, they also close lines down, a whole bunch of stations, for months on end, for renovations. The escalators don't work. The system is a nightmare. If they had a japanese style system here, I agree it would be better and possibly a viable alternative to driving. But that's not what we have we. We have a national embarrassment. A disgrace.

DP-- I use it to commute (or I did in non-pandemic times). And like PP, I was almost never late because of a metro delay.

But you're right -- it could definitely be improved. It's almost as if it would benefit from more funding, perhaps the funding that we're currently considering using to build more roads which we KNOW doesn't help.

I have exactly 7 emails from WMATA in 2019 receiving notice of a refund because they didn’t meet their service guarantee, which means delays over 20 minutes. Service in 2019 was substantially improved from the prior 5 years. Track fires were common due to garbage build up on the third rail. When it was too hot they would have to inspect tracks for warping. Similar when it was too cold. The O&M failures were staggering. Let’s not sugar coat Metro’s history here.

Anyway, this thread is supposed to be about freeway and expansion and I’m all for it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:[
I have exactly 7 emails from WMATA in 2019 receiving notice of a refund because they didn’t meet their service guarantee, which means delays over 20 minutes. Service in 2019 was substantially improved from the prior 5 years. Track fires were common due to garbage build up on the third rail. When it was too hot they would have to inspect tracks for warping. Similar when it was too cold. The O&M failures were staggering. Let’s not sugar coat Metro’s history here.

Anyway, this thread is supposed to be about freeway and expansion and I’m all for it.

There is no project proposing a freeway. There is a project proposing toll lanes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I heard a politician on the radio say re: opposing expanding 270, that it doesn't address social and environmental justice. These people are insane. Like they should be institutionalized. I don't know about you, but I'm not going to sit in traffic hours every day to "own the cons". These people are deranged.

I think a lot of county politicians have absolutely lost the plot. It seems like they are getting influenced from the most extreme voices on social media. There’s over 1 million people in this county and maybe 50,000 care about that crap.

Seriously considering moving to Virginia so I can enjoy some good and serious governance. Instead of the unserious way things are going here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
How much would Metro cost without subsidies? It would still be substantially more expensive than traveling a similar distance by car if roads were not subsidized. The fare would probably be a totally ridiculous. People forget that the streetcars went bankrupt. They just think they disappeared only through some Detroit conspiracy.

The streetcars went bankrupt because it took them forever to get anywhere because of the cars on the street. Just like buses now. Buses would be a lot faster if they had their own dedicated lanes.

Meanwhile, the approved tolls for just the toll lanes were $3-5 for 7 miles.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I concur, it's cheaper to drive if you don't work downtown than take the metro. FOr example if I were to take public transit to my current job, it would take at least 2 hours each way, I'd pay the maximum fare both ways and pay the metro parking fee. Instead I drive on roads that are subsidized for your use, takes about 45 minutes each way, and there's free parking at work.someone paid for the parking, it just isn't you. It is most liklely me in the form of subsidies to your employer

IOW if you paid the actual costs for your commute, metro would be more cost effective.

And this isn’t even accounting for the fact that gas should be $6 per gallon at MINIMUM to account for the trillions in tax dollars spent to fight wars over oil k the Middle East.

Gas and driving have huge externalities.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:[
I have exactly 7 emails from WMATA in 2019 receiving notice of a refund because they didn’t meet their service guarantee, which means delays over 20 minutes. Service in 2019 was substantially improved from the prior 5 years. Track fires were common due to garbage build up on the third rail. When it was too hot they would have to inspect tracks for warping. Similar when it was too cold. The O&M failures were staggering. Let’s not sugar coat Metro’s history here.

Anyway, this thread is supposed to be about freeway and expansion and I’m all for it.

There is no project proposing a freeway. There is a project proposing toll lanes.

What are you talking about? There is a plan to widen the freeway. That plan initially called for toll lanes along the beltway from 95 to ALB and also up 270. Smart lawmakers in Princes Georges Co got those tolls removed. Dumb lawmakers in Montgomery County did not. Some might even support the tolls because there is a committed group of people in this county, which probably includes you, trying to ban cars. If Montgomery County lawmakers allow tolls and costs only for our residents, then I guarantee it will be an election issue. The road is getting widened no matter what. There will be a new bridge expanse.

And guess what? A second bridge is in the regional master plan so that will happen too. Enjoy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:[
I have exactly 7 emails from WMATA in 2019 receiving notice of a refund because they didn’t meet their service guarantee, which means delays over 20 minutes. Service in 2019 was substantially improved from the prior 5 years. Track fires were common due to garbage build up on the third rail. When it was too hot they would have to inspect tracks for warping. Similar when it was too cold. The O&M failures were staggering. Let’s not sugar coat Metro’s history here.

Anyway, this thread is supposed to be about freeway and expansion and I’m all for it.

There is no project proposing a freeway. There is a project proposing toll lanes.

What are you talking about? There is a plan to widen the freeway. That plan initially called for toll lanes along the beltway from 95 to ALB and also up 270. Smart lawmakers in Princes Georges Co got those tolls removed. Dumb lawmakers in Montgomery County did not. Some might even support the tolls because there is a committed group of people in this county, which probably includes you, trying to ban cars. If Montgomery County lawmakers allow tolls and costs only for our residents, then I guarantee it will be an election issue. The road is getting widened no matter what. There will be a new bridge expanse.

And guess what? A second bridge is in the regional master plan so that will happen too. Enjoy.

Could you provide a link to that project, please?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:[
I have exactly 7 emails from WMATA in 2019 receiving notice of a refund because they didn’t meet their service guarantee, which means delays over 20 minutes. Service in 2019 was substantially improved from the prior 5 years. Track fires were common due to garbage build up on the third rail. When it was too hot they would have to inspect tracks for warping. Similar when it was too cold. The O&M failures were staggering. Let’s not sugar coat Metro’s history here.

Anyway, this thread is supposed to be about freeway and expansion and I’m all for it.

There is no project proposing a freeway. There is a project proposing toll lanes.

What are you talking about? There is a plan to widen the freeway. That plan initially called for toll lanes along the beltway from 95 to ALB and also up 270. Smart lawmakers in Princes Georges Co got those tolls removed. Dumb lawmakers in Montgomery County did not. Some might even support the tolls because there is a committed group of people in this county, which probably includes you, trying to ban cars. If Montgomery County lawmakers allow tolls and costs only for our residents, then I guarantee it will be an election issue. The road is getting widened no matter what. There will be a new bridge expanse.

And guess what? A second bridge is in the regional master plan so that will happen too. Enjoy.

Could you provide a link to that project, please?

No. This is stupid. Go read the paper. Whatever game you think you are playing you are playing it with yourself.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I concur, it's cheaper to drive if you don't work downtown than take the metro. FOr example if I were to take public transit to my current job, it would take at least 2 hours each way, I'd pay the maximum fare both ways and pay the metro parking fee. Instead I drive on roads that are subsidized for your use, takes about 45 minutes each way, and there's free parking at work.someone paid for the parking, it just isn't you. It is most liklely me in the form of subsidies to your employer

IOW if you paid the actual costs for your commute, metro would be more cost effective.

How much would Metro cost without subsidies? It would still be substantially more expensive than traveling a similar distance by car if roads were not subsidized. The fare would probably be a totally ridiculous. People forget that the streetcars went bankrupt. They just think they disappeared only through some Detroit conspiracy.

Except more people benefit from mass transit subsidies. The only person who benefits from the subsidies you receive is you.
Just think, how many MORE cars would be on the road right now without metro?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's a recognition that

1. Widening highways for "congestion relief" only leads to more driving and more congestion
2. While also contributing to air pollution, water pollution, and greenhouse gas emissions
3. And dumping the additional cars on local roads that aren't any bigger
4. Plus the for-profit company that's supposedly going to build it will only make a profit if the "free" lanes stay backed up
5. Plus taxpayers have ended up on the hook for the projects that the for-profit company has built elsewhere
6. Plus it was unlikely to get federal approval anyway because there are alternatives that are less damaging to the environment

Other than that, though...

(And the solution to inadequate transit is to fund better and more transit.)

That makes no sense. People are going to commute regardless of whether they expand roads or not. And this area, the closer you get to DC, the more expensive it is, so people will continue moving away, especially with violent crime going up. Wishing it away isn't a sol;ution. Busses are not a solution. Metro isn't a solution. Even if they expanded metro to frederick and to Woodbridge, it still would make no difference as metro is unreliable at best. Dangerous at worse. What is the solution then?

Widening highways leads to increased traffic is pretty much a rule in road planning. There are outlier exceptions where this doesn't happen, but virtually every time you add roads you add drivers.

And if you don't widen it when it's already overburned you have gridlock. Sitting in traffic isn't going to save the planet. what is wrong with people?

This has been the MoCo/Maryland traffic planning mantra for almost the entire 30 years that I've lived here. There have been two new roads built during that time (Montrose Parkway and the ICC) pushed through during Republican administrations. The default strategy is to force people onto Metro or proposed rapid bus lines. (Note: that the ICC has greatly improved my life and the tolls keep the road from being flooded with cars.)

I totally support widening 270 because I live in Rockville (very close to 270) and we basically can't travel from one part of Rockville to another (or adjacent places like our church in Potomac) without being stuck in commuter traffic. But my city and county governments came out against the proposal with little public comment.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
How much would Metro cost without subsidies? It would still be substantially more expensive than traveling a similar distance by car if roads were not subsidized. The fare would probably be a totally ridiculous. People forget that the streetcars went bankrupt. They just think they disappeared only through some Detroit conspiracy.

The streetcars went bankrupt because it took them forever to get anywhere because of the cars on the street. Just like buses now. Buses would be a lot faster if they had their own dedicated lanes.

Meanwhile, the approved tolls for just the toll lanes were $3-5 for 7 miles.

LOL, nope, the streetcars were bought by front companies controlled by the tire, bus and oil lobbies. They slammed the service to make it non-viable. This happened nationally.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/driven-to-fail-heres-the-story-of-the-demise-of-the-districts-streetcars/2015/03/28/4d822bb6-d48e-11e4-a62f-ee745911a4ff_story.html

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Prove this. Show me proof that not expanding an overburdened system provides relief to the current gridlock.
What is your solution? TO pray the traffic away? Do you take Metro? It's beyond woeful. It is NOT a viable solution. It is not a transportation system. It is a jobs program. It is not going to provide relief, it is not going to take many cars off the road. So what do you propose to deal with the CURRENT gridlock which is only going to get worse?

At this point, you're basically asking the PP to show you proof that gravity is what keeps you from floating off into space. That's how well-established the theory of induced demand is.

So doing nothing is the solution? Despite knowing more people are moving further out? There is already gridlock. Does expending metro mean more people take metro? So why does it with roads?

Here are some academic articles to sate your curiosity about the relationship between widening roads and additional traffic:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0191261510000226
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0965856499000476
http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.376.4786&rep=rep1&type=pdf

The solution is to encourage denser and mixed-use development closer-in to DC and near transit.

Presumably that "induced demand" was created by people who wanted to drive before but couldn't because of conditions. I happen to think that government that enables more people to be satisfied is good government.