Question Re: Local CES Programs (Rachel Carson, Matsunaga, etc.)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Sort of. I'm the parent of a Black kid at PBES and I'm acutely aware that one of the factors that impacts the schools's scores on metrics like the Maryland Report Card is the the achievement gap between white kids and Black/Latino kids, and non-FARMS and FARMS kids.

Kids of color and poor/working class kids do worse at PBES than at most other schools, even in Silver Spring. If you compare Black and Latino kids at PBES with Black and Latino kids at nearby schools, it appears something is going wrong at PBES. White and Asian kids do well everywhere, but Black and Latino kids do worse. It's troubling both from an ethical standpoint (are these our TP values) and as a parent.

Overcrowding and too many squeaky wheels getting grease. The PBES UMC parents are relentless and whiney about making sure that their snowflake gets enrichment, gets put in the CES class and if they don't then all hands on deck needs to be out to make sure snowflake doesn't go down the wrong track. The combination of overcrowding and too many white parents who are only OK with a school full of diverse abilities as long as their kid is on top. The resources are spread too thin, especially after 3rd grade and too many get diverted away from the FARMS kids whose parents don't question the school or push for more resources.

Decisions about who attends the CES are made by the central office. Whiney parents have little sway. Just ask the angry Cold Spring parents whose kids didn't get into TPMS.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:In non-CES classes, MCPS usually spreads out the different abilities to be more equitable to the teachers. In a large school this means that the kids that are smart but just miss the CES cut off get spread out across multiple classes.In schools with high FARMS the skill range can be much lower for the lower 70% of the grade that didn't get into the CES. In 4th and 5th grade, kids are usually still in friend groups by gender which further cuts in half the number of studious friends that a kid can have in this scenario.

This must vary in implementation from school to school. Our school does heterogeneous classes, but there are still 4-5 kids of similar reading level in each class. I can see where looping off a large group of the higher achievers would affect that, but it’s still possible to group kids with similar abilities without fully “tracked” classes. Doesn’t PBES have like 9 classes of each grade? Seems like there should still be enough kids close to the CES cut-off to create groups of 4-5 kids in each/most classes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In non-CES classes, MCPS usually spreads out the different abilities to be more equitable to the teachers. In a large school this means that the kids that are smart but just miss the CES cut off get spread out across multiple classes.In schools with high FARMS the skill range can be much lower for the lower 70% of the grade that didn't get into the CES. In 4th and 5th grade, kids are usually still in friend groups by gender which further cuts in half the number of studious friends that a kid can have in this scenario.

This must vary in implementation from school to school. Our school does heterogeneous classes, but there are still 4-5 kids of similar reading level in each class. I can see where looping off a large group of the higher achievers would affect that, but it’s still possible to group kids with similar abilities without fully “tracked” classes. Doesn’t PBES have like 9 classes of each grade? Seems like there should still be enough kids close to the CES cut-off to create groups of 4-5 kids in each/most classes.

What I've heard (and seen) is that the rest of the classes are not tracked. If we assume for the sake of argument that the "top" quintile of kids are in the center, and the second quintile of kids are spread across the remaining 7 classes, that's going to hurt the 79% kid the most.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In non-CES classes, MCPS usually spreads out the different abilities to be more equitable to the teachers. In a large school this means that the kids that are smart but just miss the CES cut off get spread out across multiple classes.In schools with high FARMS the skill range can be much lower for the lower 70% of the grade that didn't get into the CES. In 4th and 5th grade, kids are usually still in friend groups by gender which further cuts in half the number of studious friends that a kid can have in this scenario.

This must vary in implementation from school to school. Our school does heterogeneous classes, but there are still 4-5 kids of similar reading level in each class. I can see where looping off a large group of the higher achievers would affect that, but it’s still possible to group kids with similar abilities without fully “tracked” classes. Doesn’t PBES have like 9 classes of each grade? Seems like there should still be enough kids close to the CES cut-off to create groups of 4-5 kids in each/most classes.

What I've heard (and seen) is that the rest of the classes are not tracked. If we assume for the sake of argument that the "top" quintile of kids are in the center, and the second quintile of kids are spread across the remaining 7 classes, that's going to hurt the 79% kid the most.

Our experience was just the opposite. The kids not in the center had smaller classes and received far more attention. Since all kids were grouped by reading level and compacted math had nothing to do with this, it seemed to benefit everyone.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In non-CES classes, MCPS usually spreads out the different abilities to be more equitable to the teachers. In a large school this means that the kids that are smart but just miss the CES cut off get spread out across multiple classes.In schools with high FARMS the skill range can be much lower for the lower 70% of the grade that didn't get into the CES. In 4th and 5th grade, kids are usually still in friend groups by gender which further cuts in half the number of studious friends that a kid can have in this scenario.

This must vary in implementation from school to school. Our school does heterogeneous classes, but there are still 4-5 kids of similar reading level in each class. I can see where looping off a large group of the higher achievers would affect that, but it’s still possible to group kids with similar abilities without fully “tracked” classes. Doesn’t PBES have like 9 classes of each grade? Seems like there should still be enough kids close to the CES cut-off to create groups of 4-5 kids in each/most classes.

In my child's 3rd grade at PBES 5 out of 8 children in the top reading group ended up in the CES. The following year the 3 that did not end up in the local center were assigned to classes with a small group with fewer than half-dozen kids at their level. They even met with greater frequency than in previous years since the teacher had more time to spend with them largely because the classes were smaller.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In non-CES classes, MCPS usually spreads out the different abilities to be more equitable to the teachers. In a large school this means that the kids that are smart but just miss the CES cut off get spread out across multiple classes.In schools with high FARMS the skill range can be much lower for the lower 70% of the grade that didn't get into the CES. In 4th and 5th grade, kids are usually still in friend groups by gender which further cuts in half the number of studious friends that a kid can have in this scenario.

This must vary in implementation from school to school. Our school does heterogeneous classes, but there are still 4-5 kids of similar reading level in each class. I can see where looping off a large group of the higher achievers would affect that, but it’s still possible to group kids with similar abilities without fully “tracked” classes. Doesn’t PBES have like 9 classes of each grade? Seems like there should still be enough kids close to the CES cut-off to create groups of 4-5 kids in each/most classes.

In my child's 3rd grade at PBES 5 out of 8 children in the top reading group ended up in the CES. The following year the 3 that did not end up in the local center were assigned to classes with a small group with fewer than half-dozen kids at their level. They even met with greater frequency than in previous years since the teacher had more time to spend with them largely because the classes were smaller.

Right, I mean, less than six is still a fine reading group. At our school all of the 3 children accepted to the regional CES came from the same 3rd grade classroom. The classes are not “tracked” but I don’t think that was a coincidence either.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Sort of. I'm the parent of a Black kid at PBES and I'm acutely aware that one of the factors that impacts the schools's scores on metrics like the Maryland Report Card is the the achievement gap between white kids and Black/Latino kids, and non-FARMS and FARMS kids.

Kids of color and poor/working class kids do worse at PBES than at most other schools, even in Silver Spring. If you compare Black and Latino kids at PBES with Black and Latino kids at nearby schools, it appears something is going wrong at PBES. White and Asian kids do well everywhere, but Black and Latino kids do worse. It's troubling both from an ethical standpoint (are these our TP values) and as a parent.


Overcrowding and too many squeaky wheels getting grease. The PBES UMC parents are relentless and whiney about making sure that their snowflake gets enrichment, gets put in the CES class and if they don't then all hands on deck needs to be out to make sure snowflake doesn't go down the wrong track. The combination of overcrowding and too many white parents who are only OK with a school full of diverse abilities as long as their kid is on top. The resources are spread too thin, especially after 3rd grade and too many get diverted away from the FARMS kids whose parents don't question the school or push for more resources.

Decisions about who attends the CES are made by the central office. Whiney parents have little sway. Just ask the angry Cold Spring parents whose kids didn't get into TPMS.

CES doesn't start until the 4th grade and even after 4th grade there are not enough CES seats for all the white kids. The parents of kids that get left out CES are the worst in 4th and 5th grade.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Looking at PBES on school digger it ranks 300 while many non-CES ES schools in higher performing areas are in the top 10. PBES did pretty badly on the MD report card too. I've also heard that the CES program isn't as strong as it is elsewhere. I'm not sure if its the over crowding or something else but something is always off at PBES.

The 4th grade CES curriculum is extremely challenging at PBES. The 5th grade teacher this year seems less set on pushing the CES curriculum and appears to pick and choose what he teaches in contrast to last year where the students were challenged to a very high level. Our 5th grader has much less classwork and homework than last year - by leaps and bounds....He's happy, but it is hard to get over the idea that 5th should be more challenging than 4th....

My PBES CES fifth-grader is equally or more challenged this year than last. The teacher seems to place more importance on classwork than on homework, which is as it should be (IMO).

The fifth grade teacher is far more experienced than the fourth grade one, fwiw.

Fascinating. Same school. Same class. Same teacher, but completely different experiences.

Not different experiences. Same experience, but different expectations from 2 parents.

[Anonymous]

The 4th grade CES curriculum is extremely challenging at PBES. The 5th grade teacher this year seems less set on pushing the CES curriculum and appears to pick and choose what he teaches in contrast to last year where the students were challenged to a very high level. Our 5th grader has much less classwork and homework than last year - by leaps and bounds....He's happy, but it is hard to get over the idea that 5th should be more challenging than 4th....

The CES programs really vary across the county. They have the flexibility to teach up to but also below what is in the CES curriculum based on the capabilities of the class. Some CES programs have very high flyers and other CES programs are filled with kids who are smart but would never make the cut in the other programs. The MAP scores at PBES are not very good in comparison to other CES programs so going slower in 5th grade here is good practice.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Looking at PBES on school digger it ranks 300 while many non-CES ES schools in higher performing areas are in the top 10. PBES did pretty badly on the MD report card too. I've also heard that the CES program isn't as strong as it is elsewhere. I'm not sure if its the over crowding or something else but something is always off at PBES.

The 4th grade CES curriculum is extremely challenging at PBES. The 5th grade teacher this year seems less set on pushing the CES curriculum and appears to pick and choose what he teaches in contrast to last year where the students were challenged to a very high level. Our 5th grader has much less classwork and homework than last year - by leaps and bounds....He's happy, but it is hard to get over the idea that 5th should be more challenging than 4th....

My PBES CES fifth-grader is equally or more challenged this year than last. The teacher seems to place more importance on classwork than on homework, which is as it should be (IMO).

The fifth grade teacher is far more experienced than the fourth grade one, fwiw.

Fascinating. Same school. Same class. Same teacher, but completely different experiences.

Not exactly. While last year there was one 4th grade CES teacher, this year there are two in the 4th grade, and there is also a long-term sub so technically there are three. In my opinion, they've all been strong (this year). Next year there will necessarily be another 5th grade teacher and guess what - people will complain. They always find a reason to.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

The 4th grade CES curriculum is extremely challenging at PBES. The 5th grade teacher this year seems less set on pushing the CES curriculum and appears to pick and choose what he teaches in contrast to last year where the students were challenged to a very high level. Our 5th grader has much less classwork and homework than last year - by leaps and bounds....He's happy, but it is hard to get over the idea that 5th should be more challenging than 4th....

The CES programs really vary across the county. They have the flexibility to teach up to but also below what is in the CES curriculum based on the capabilities of the class. Some CES programs have very high flyers and other CES programs are filled with kids who are smart but would never make the cut in the other programs. The MAP scores at PBES are not very good in comparison to other CES programs so going slower in 5th grade here is good practice.

How can you possibly know this? MAP scores aren't reported.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

The 4th grade CES curriculum is extremely challenging at PBES. The 5th grade teacher this year seems less set on pushing the CES curriculum and appears to pick and choose what he teaches in contrast to last year where the students were challenged to a very high level. Our 5th grader has much less classwork and homework than last year - by leaps and bounds....He's happy, but it is hard to get over the idea that 5th should be more challenging than 4th....

The CES programs really vary across the county. They have the flexibility to teach up to but also below what is in the CES curriculum based on the capabilities of the class. Some CES programs have very high flyers and other CES programs are filled with kids who are smart but would never make the cut in the other programs. The MAP scores at PBES are not very good in comparison to other CES programs so going slower in 5th grade here is good practice.

How can you possibly know this? MAP scores aren't reported.

!!!!!! You can't know this, overzealous parent. Please.

[Anonymous]

Parents with kids in the PBES CES program, DC's experience has been fantastic both years.


Parents without kids at PBES, you really do not have a stake in this. So stop conjecturing about what is wrong with PBES and how it should be fixed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Parents with kids in the PBES CES program, DC's experience has been fantastic both years.


Parents without kids at PBES, you really do not have a stake in this. So stop conjecturing about what is wrong with PBES and how it should be fixed.

What about parents with kids in the PBES CES who worry that the outcomes for kids of color at the school suggest systemic and institutionalized racism. Do we get an opinion?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

The 4th grade CES curriculum is extremely challenging at PBES. The 5th grade teacher this year seems less set on pushing the CES curriculum and appears to pick and choose what he teaches in contrast to last year where the students were challenged to a very high level. Our 5th grader has much less classwork and homework than last year - by leaps and bounds....He's happy, but it is hard to get over the idea that 5th should be more challenging than 4th....

The CES programs really vary across the county. They have the flexibility to teach up to but also below what is in the CES curriculum based on the capabilities of the class. Some CES programs have very high flyers and other CES programs are filled with kids who are smart but would never make the cut in the other programs. The MAP scores at PBES are not very good in comparison to other CES programs so going slower in 5th grade here is good practice.

How can you possibly know this? MAP scores aren't reported.

!!!!!! You can't know this, overzealous parent. Please.

As a PBES parent. I'm aware of how my DC and several of their friends score on their MAPs and at least in their circle of friends, high 90s is fairly common.