Question Re: Local CES Programs (Rachel Carson, Matsunaga, etc.)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I rarely use this forum because the anonymous comments are ruthless! I'm the original poster, and just to clarify, I believe there are 9 4th grade classes in the school. And my kid is in the CES and isn't calling anyone dumb (though there was a question about why there are no black girls in the class). But labeling kids at an early age is ... not without its issues. Our school is very diverse and the CES is not. And kids do make comments about who is smart and who isn't, and the fact is there are a LOT of kids at the school who aren't in the CES but could be and would do fine. Anyway, my question was more about how schools with a local CES maintain a sense of community for all kids, and their parents. And also how they provide differentiated instruction for kids at different levels in their classrooms. I'm sure my school isn't the only one with parents who feel like their kids are being left behind, and there are people here considering private school. So, while the CES is good for my kid I guess, I'm not sure it's so good for the community or the school as a whole. So, if you are at one of those schools that might be dealing with similar issues and you have any thoughts, please share. Thanks!

It’s a real problem at large local CES schools that aren’t all-around high performing. When you take the upper 20-25% the top of the bottom 75-80% are left with struggling teachers overwhelmed with kids trying to get proficient or with behavior problems. The general complaint is that kids who were doing fine/good and growing are now at the top of a diminished cohort and stagnate both achievement and morale wise. The current model is
Not good.

Yes, this is exactly what is happening in our school (same school as OP). My high performing non CES kid has gone from loving school to hating it (except his compact math class with mostly CES kids). Too many disruptions and behavior problems and apparently “it doesn’t feel like being smart is cool anymore.” Breaks my heart.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I rarely use this forum because the anonymous comments are ruthless! I'm the original poster, and just to clarify, I believe there are 9 4th grade classes in the school. And my kid is in the CES and isn't calling anyone dumb (though there was a question about why there are no black girls in the class). But labeling kids at an early age is ... not without its issues. Our school is very diverse and the CES is not. And kids do make comments about who is smart and who isn't, and the fact is there are a LOT of kids at the school who aren't in the CES but could be and would do fine. Anyway, my question was more about how schools with a local CES maintain a sense of community for all kids, and their parents. And also how they provide differentiated instruction for kids at different levels in their classrooms. I'm sure my school isn't the only one with parents who feel like their kids are being left behind, and there are people here considering private school. So, while the CES is good for my kid I guess, I'm not sure it's so good for the community or the school as a whole. So, if you are at one of those schools that might be dealing with similar issues and you have any thoughts, please share. Thanks!

It’s a real problem at large local CES schools that aren’t all-around high performing. When you take the upper 20-25% the top of the bottom 75-80% are left with struggling teachers overwhelmed with kids trying to get proficient or with behavior problems. The general complaint is that kids who were doing fine/good and growing are now at the top of a diminished cohort and stagnate both achievement and morale wise. The current model is
Not good.

Yes, this is exactly what is happening in our school (same school as OP). My high performing non CES kid has gone from loving school to hating it (except his compact math class with mostly CES kids). Too many disruptions and behavior problems and apparently “it doesn’t feel like being smart is cool anymore.” Breaks my heart.

I think you and OP and I are possibly at the same school. It’s really unfortunate and after hearing how others feel it seems very separate and unequal. Not really the school’s fault but more of an MCPS misstep in differentiation. They need to either scale it back to strengthen the gen ed pool or greatly expand the accelerated offerings. One of the biggest CES benefits is how quickly the kids read: a new book every 2-3 weeks, and robust books. This should not be hard to offer to more kids. They do reading groups, why do they all have the be on the same schedule with the same books? Or are they already doing this? If not they should.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I rarely use this forum because the anonymous comments are ruthless! I'm the original poster, and just to clarify, I believe there are 9 4th grade classes in the school. And my kid is in the CES and isn't calling anyone dumb (though there was a question about why there are no black girls in the class). But labeling kids at an early age is ... not without its issues. Our school is very diverse and the CES is not. And kids do make comments about who is smart and who isn't, and the fact is there are a LOT of kids at the school who aren't in the CES but could be and would do fine. Anyway, my question was more about how schools with a local CES maintain a sense of community for all kids, and their parents. And also how they provide differentiated instruction for kids at different levels in their classrooms. I'm sure my school isn't the only one with parents who feel like their kids are being left behind, and there are people here considering private school. So, while the CES is good for my kid I guess, I'm not sure it's so good for the community or the school as a whole. So, if you are at one of those schools that might be dealing with similar issues and you have any thoughts, please share. Thanks!

It’s a real problem at large local CES schools that aren’t all-around high performing. When you take the upper 20-25% the top of the bottom 75-80% are left with struggling teachers overwhelmed with kids trying to get proficient or with behavior problems. The general complaint is that kids who were doing fine/good and growing are now at the top of a diminished cohort and stagnate both achievement and morale wise. The current model is
Not good.

I’m sure we are at the same school. And were probably at the same
meeting this week. As I mentioned - there are some classes doing a better job at differentiation. My child’s reading group is assigned more complex novels with more advanced writing assignments and projects related to those novels. For this particular class it’s not been the academics that are as much of a problem as the outrageously frequent discipline issues arising.

Yes, this is exactly what is happening in our school (same school as OP). My high performing non CES kid has gone from loving school to hating it (except his compact math class with mostly CES kids). Too many disruptions and behavior problems and apparently “it doesn’t feel like being smart is cool anymore.” Breaks my heart.

I think you and OP and I are possibly at the same school. It’s really unfortunate and after hearing how others feel it seems very separate and unequal. Not really the school’s fault but more of an MCPS misstep in differentiation. They need to either scale it back to strengthen the gen ed pool or greatly expand the accelerated offerings. One of the biggest CES benefits is how quickly the kids read: a new book every 2-3 weeks, and robust books. This should not be hard to offer to more kids. They do reading groups, why do they all have the be on the same schedule with the same books? Or are they already doing this? If not they should.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I rarely use this forum because the anonymous comments are ruthless! I'm the original poster, and just to clarify, I believe there are 9 4th grade classes in the school. And my kid is in the CES and isn't calling anyone dumb (though there was a question about why there are no black girls in the class). But labeling kids at an early age is ... not without its issues. Our school is very diverse and the CES is not. And kids do make comments about who is smart and who isn't, and the fact is there are a LOT of kids at the school who aren't in the CES but could be and would do fine. Anyway, my question was more about how schools with a local CES maintain a sense of community for all kids, and their parents. And also how they provide differentiated instruction for kids at different levels in their classrooms. I'm sure my school isn't the only one with parents who feel like their kids are being left behind, and there are people here considering private school. So, while the CES is good for my kid I guess, I'm not sure it's so good for the community or the school as a whole. So, if you are at one of those schools that might be dealing with similar issues and you have any thoughts, please share. Thanks!

It’s a real problem at large local CES schools that aren’t all-around high performing. When you take the upper 20-25% the top of the bottom 75-80% are left with struggling teachers overwhelmed with kids trying to get proficient or with behavior problems. The general complaint is that kids who were doing fine/good and growing are now at the top of a diminished cohort and stagnate both achievement and morale wise. The current model is
Not good.

Yes, this is exactly what is happening in our school (same school as OP). My high performing non CES kid has gone from loving school to hating it (except his compact math class with mostly CES kids). Too many disruptions and behavior problems and apparently “it doesn’t feel like being smart is cool anymore.” Breaks my heart.

I think you and OP and I are possibly at the same school. It’s really unfortunate and after hearing how others feel it seems very separate and unequal. Not really the school’s fault but more of an MCPS misstep in differentiation. They need to either scale it back to strengthen the gen ed pool or greatly expand the accelerated offerings. One of the biggest CES benefits is how quickly the kids read: a new book every 2-3 weeks, and robust books. This should not be hard to offer to more kids. They do reading groups, why do they all have the be on the same schedule with the same books? Or are they already doing this? If not they should.

Even if they open it up to twice as many kids, won't others be left behind? It's sad but this happens at every school.

[Anonymous]

I don’t want to hijack your thread with talk about the regional centers, but I do think the Chevy Chase principal made a point of telling CES parents at the spring CES open house that there is GT instruction and opportunities in the regular program and that she had some student win a County or statewide GT award and it was a non-CES student. We are not local to the school but a large chunk of the CES is. I didn’t really think much about the principal’s comments at the time, but in the context of what you’re describing, perhaps it is in part to set a tone with the parents about the strength of the non-CES students/programs as well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I rarely use this forum because the anonymous comments are ruthless! I'm the original poster, and just to clarify, I believe there are 9 4th grade classes in the school. And my kid is in the CES and isn't calling anyone dumb (though there was a question about why there are no black girls in the class). But labeling kids at an early age is ... not without its issues. Our school is very diverse and the CES is not. And kids do make comments about who is smart and who isn't, and the fact is there are a LOT of kids at the school who aren't in the CES but could be and would do fine. Anyway, my question was more about how schools with a local CES maintain a sense of community for all kids, and their parents. And also how they provide differentiated instruction for kids at different levels in their classrooms. I'm sure my school isn't the only one with parents who feel like their kids are being left behind, and there are people here considering private school. So, while the CES is good for my kid I guess, I'm not sure it's so good for the community or the school as a whole. So, if you are at one of those schools that might be dealing with similar issues and you have any thoughts, please share. Thanks!

It’s a real problem at large local CES schools that aren’t all-around high performing. When you take the upper 20-25% the top of the bottom 75-80% are left with struggling teachers overwhelmed with kids trying to get proficient or with behavior problems. The general complaint is that kids who were doing fine/good and growing are now at the top of a diminished cohort and stagnate both achievement and morale wise. The current model is
Not good.

Yes, this is exactly what is happening in our school (same school as OP). My high performing non CES kid has gone from loving school to hating it (except his compact math class with mostly CES kids). Too many disruptions and behavior problems and apparently “it doesn’t feel like being smart is cool anymore.” Breaks my heart.

I think you and OP and I are possibly at the same school. It’s really unfortunate and after hearing how others feel it seems very separate and unequal. Not really the school’s fault but more of an MCPS misstep in differentiation. They need to either scale it back to strengthen the gen ed pool or greatly expand the accelerated offerings. One of the biggest CES benefits is how quickly the kids read: a new book every 2-3 weeks, and robust books. This should not be hard to offer to more kids. They do reading groups, why do they all have the be on the same schedule with the same books? Or are they already doing this? If not they should.

Even if they open it up to twice as many kids, won't others be left behind? It's sad but this happens at every school.

My idea to reduce the number of kids. Go to one class. The top 30% of an individual is totally unrelated to gifted education or anything like the old HGC. I give it only a few years before schools start offer the advanced curriculum to everyone...

[Anonymous]

For what it is worth, my understanding is that even those local centers that currently have two classes per grade could drop back to one depending on the year. Ostensibly, it is dependent on the strength of the year.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:For what it is worth, my understanding is that even those local centers that currently have two classes per grade could drop back to one depending on the year. Ostensibly, it is dependent on the strength of the year.

I don’t think that’s true. How on earth would they handle that from a staffing point of view?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:For what it is worth, my understanding is that even those local centers that currently have two classes per grade could drop back to one depending on the year. Ostensibly, it is dependent on the strength of the year.

Makes more sense to expand the program at this school so it captures a similar percentage like RCES. That way more benefit.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For what it is worth, my understanding is that even those local centers that currently have two classes per grade could drop back to one depending on the year. Ostensibly, it is dependent on the strength of the year.

I don’t think that’s true. How on earth would they handle that from a staffing point of view?

The same way they handle it when one grade level has a lot more kids than another -- they shift teachers around. I've seen it at our school. My daughter's grade level has 5 classes and the one below and above her has 4. So there is shifting each year.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For what it is worth, my understanding is that even those local centers that currently have two classes per grade could drop back to one depending on the year. Ostensibly, it is dependent on the strength of the year.

I don’t think that’s true. How on earth would they handle that from a staffing point of view?

The same way they handle it when one grade level has a lot more kids than another -- they shift teachers around. I've seen it at our school. My daughter's grade level has 5 classes and the one below and above her has 4. So there is shifting each year.

It doesn't work that way with CES teachers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For what it is worth, my understanding is that even those local centers that currently have two classes per grade could drop back to one depending on the year. Ostensibly, it is dependent on the strength of the year.

I don’t think that’s true. How on earth would they handle that from a staffing point of view?

The same way they handle it when one grade level has a lot more kids than another -- they shift teachers around. I've seen it at our school. My daughter's grade level has 5 classes and the one below and above her has 4. So there is shifting each year.

It doesn't work that way with CES teachers.

Unless something has changed, CES teachers are not specially trained. When my child was at a HGC...a neighborhood class teacher moved to a HGC class while my DD's HGC teacher moved to a neighborhood class. There is no special credential.

[Anonymous]

Prior to opening the local CES, PBES completely dominated the regional one because it has so many high-flyers compared to the other schools in the area. I suspect half the reason the county did this was to create more opportunities for students at the other nearby schools.

Although I feel for the poster whose child feels excluded, I have spoken with several neighborhood parents whose children are not in the CES and had very different and positive experiences.

One parent was happy their bright child wasn’t in the program because they felt they lacked the maturity to handle the rigorous workload and would get discouraged.

The other parent has a bright articulate child but had admittedly left their child’s education entirely to MCPS. Before the school year began they expressed some misgivings but when I asked them about it a few months ago they felt the school had done an excellent job of creating a broader inclusive community. They said their earlier fears weren’t warranted.

In both cases, the parents were fine with this outcome and happy with the school. I guess it goes to show you can't please everyone and that's especially true with pretty much everything MCPS does.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Makes more sense to expand the program at this school so it captures a similar percentage like RCES. That way more benefit.

Agreed - up the numbers from 20% to 30% like RCES to include more students who are capable of doing the work.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Prior to opening the local CES, PBES completely dominated the regional one because it has so many high-flyers compared to the other schools in the area. I suspect half the reason the county did this was to create more opportunities for students at the other nearby schools.

Although I feel for the poster whose child feels excluded, I have spoken with several neighborhood parents whose children are not in the CES and had very different and positive experiences.

One parent was happy their bright child wasn’t in the program because they felt they lacked the maturity to handle the rigorous workload and would get discouraged.

The other parent has a bright articulate child but had admittedly left their child’s education entirely to MCPS. Before the school year began they expressed some misgivings but when I asked them about it a few months ago they felt the school had done an excellent job of creating a broader inclusive community. They said their earlier fears weren’t warranted.

In both cases, the parents were fine with this outcome and happy with the school. I guess it goes to show you can't please everyone and that's especially true with pretty much everything MCPS does.

Well.....this is a little bit true and a little bit untrue. PBES did have a lot of kids at the regional center, but PBES is also substantially larger than any other elementary school that fed into that center. So, yes, they dominated the placements but they also had a pool of fourth graders that was twice or three times as large as any other school that sent kids to the regional center.

Giving PBES their own local center did free up spots for other elementary schools but it wasn't just that Takoma Park kids are inherently "higher flyers" than the other kids - they were pulling from a substantially larger pool.

It is also clear that the local center at PBES isn't just made up of kids who would have attended the regional center. The bar is lower, which is fine, but let's not pretend PBES actually has 50 kids per grade who would have attended the regional center.

/former PBES & CES parent