Why do top US universities weed out most pre-med kids & then we import foreign MDs?

[Anonymous]

It’s not racism to prefer best and brightest American kids become physicans and not get funneled into consulting, law and finance. And it’s not racism to prefer the MDs my family needs are native English speakers who were credentialed in First World high-trust and modern schools and hospitals.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:IMO one of the largest factors is that medical school (like law school) does not screen for the factors that make for a good practitioner and over relies on grades and test scores. This tends to lead to a glut of medical students with astronomical scores and low social skills / emotional IQ. I don’t care as much about the role of foreign trained physicians as the fact that the structure of premedical and medical education weeds out kids who would be truly terrific doctors, particularly in primary care / peds / geriatrics (where the need is highest and “soft skills” are hugely important. I just finished a non-medical masters program at a top medical school. I was horrified at the utter lack of social skills amongst the so called best and brightest and it wasn’t just the international students by a long shot. Truly, it was so bad I worried for my future medical care. I think something has to change!

This is your opinion. I would rather go to a doctor who is on top of their knowledge, up to date on latest research in their field, good diagnostician, and is thorough. So called “soft skills” rank below all of the above. I would also prefer to trust my life in the hands of an A student rather than a B student.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Same is true with nursing schools. They are hard to get into and then we hire from 2nd and 3rd world countries to fill our nursing shortages. Why?! Are Jamaican nurses that much more intelligent than the students who were weeded out? Why not increase the spots available to fill the need.

And same with doctors. We have a shortage of pediatricians and general practitioners

There is a nursing shortage in not only this country, but also in countries like the UK. As the population gets older, more healthcare providers are needed. It's why the home healthcare industry is growing.

American doctors don't want to practice family medicine. There's no money in it. That's why a lot of the rural doctors are from foreign countries.

The anecdotal evidence that people are putting forth as examples of how we don't have a shortage is just that.. anecdotal.

Some of you can't even explain why med schools pick foreign students over Americans without resorting to stereotypes.

https://www.aacnnursing.org/News-Information/Fact-Sheets/Nursing-Shortage

https://www.registerednursing.org/largest-nursing-shortages/

https://dakotafreepress.com/2018/09/19/legislature-approves-more-foreign-doctors-fill-unmet-rural-needs/

People are commenting without reading responses. It as been amply shown that med schools are NOT picking foreign over US graduates. And the tiny number who are foreign graduates are likely very, very well qualified.

[Anonymous]

DH is a math professor; many students who are premed or prenursing fail due to not being able to pass the math, anatomy, and chemistry requirements. They are not well prepared, don't realize how much science is involved in medicine (!) and sometimes unwilling put in the hours of work each week for each class.

Some of the poorer students are also trying to work a lot of hours to support themselves, and don't have the time to do the work in the harder courses to make the grades they need. And may not be as well prepared.

One of his students could not score well enough on the MCAT and his grades were not good enough to get into med school - he had spent 4 years in a frat. After he graduated, he moved out of the frat, came back and took a years work of STEM classes, and studied constantly for the GRE. He made it into med school. Have no doubt he will be a great doctor.

[Anonymous]

From a social perspective, it is very expensive to train a doctor (medical school is net loser), so as a country, it is better off for the USA to not train enough doctors and then import doctors trained at the cost of their home countries.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:IMO one of the largest factors is that medical school (like law school) does not screen for the factors that make for a good practitioner and over relies on grades and test scores. This tends to lead to a glut of medical students with astronomical scores and low social skills / emotional IQ. I don’t care as much about the role of foreign trained physicians as the fact that the structure of premedical and medical education weeds out kids who would be truly terrific doctors, particularly in primary care / peds / geriatrics (where the need is highest and “soft skills” are hugely important. I just finished a non-medical masters program at a top medical school. I was horrified at the utter lack of social skills amongst the so called best and brightest and it wasn’t just the international students by a long shot. Truly, it was so bad I worried for my future medical care. I think something has to change!

This is your opinion. I would rather go to a doctor who is on top of their knowledge, up to date on latest research in their field, good diagnostician, and is thorough. So called “soft skills” rank below all of the above. I would also prefer to trust my life in the hands of an A student rather than a B student.

It is. But I am taking about an A student versus a B+ (maybe at a harder college) student, who can actually make eye contact, have a conversation and communicate. I think thoroughness and diagnostic skills are much easier to teach, than to take a 26 year old with dC- social skills and humazine them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:IMO one of the largest factors is that medical school (like law school) does not screen for the factors that make for a good practitioner and over relies on grades and test scores. This tends to lead to a glut of medical students with astronomical scores and low social skills / emotional IQ. I don’t care as much about the role of foreign trained physicians as the fact that the structure of premedical and medical education weeds out kids who would be truly terrific doctors, particularly in primary care / peds / geriatrics (where the need is highest and “soft skills” are hugely important. I just finished a non-medical masters program at a top medical school. I was horrified at the utter lack of social skills amongst the so called best and brightest and it wasn’t just the international students by a long shot. Truly, it was so bad I worried for my future medical care. I think something has to change!

This is your opinion. I would rather go to a doctor who is on top of their knowledge, up to date on latest research in their field, good diagnostician, and is thorough. So called “soft skills” rank below all of the above. I would also prefer to trust my life in the hands of an A student rather than a B student.

+1. Soft skills are okay as long as you are getting a flu shot or being treated for a simple sickness. When a patient is facing life or death situation as in a cancer patient, soft skills at the expense of top notch research knowledge is no good. The doctor in the later case needs to be thoroughly aware of latest research, cutting-edge cancer treatments, latest drugs, even latest clinical trials underway, etc. It doesn't cut to say "as long as the doctors are republicans" a la Ronald Reagan.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And to the person who said they have encountered doctors "from places you have never heard of".....speak for yourself.

Not all Americans are insular and ignorant.

+1. What place have you "never heard of?"

Can you name the top colleges and medical schools in Iraq and India and Bangladesh?
How do they stack up to the Ivies, the ACC and BigTen?

IIT is as good as the top Us schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And to the person who said they have encountered doctors "from places you have never heard of".....speak for yourself.

Not all Americans are insular and ignorant.

+1. What place have you "never heard of?"

Can you name the top colleges and medical schools in Iraq and India and Bangladesh?
How do they stack up to the Ivies, the ACC and BigTen?

IIT is as good as the top Us schools.

Better, actually. It you asked me to pick between an IIT grad and a US University grad as to who would treat me, I would pick up the IIT grad.

Before the racists start screaming, I am white, born in the US.

[Anonymous]

Some posters here seem to think it is easy for a foreign doctor to come to US and do residency. No American teaching hospital is rolling out red carpet to recruit foreign educated doctors. Also, it is not easy to get a visa for foreign doctors to come to US. Given all things otherwise equal, why would any US teaching hospital offer residency to a foreign educated doctor over a US Medical School graduate? If you stop for a second and think logically with open mind you will realize that foreign educated doctors are exceptionally well qualified and overcame many obstacles to be where they are.

Regarding Duke premed students being curved out despite their stellar credentials prior to entering Duke, one doesn't have to be at Duke or other selective schools to go to med school. I know of students who had full ride at UMBC and had more than one med school admission offer each. Yes, undergrad GPA matters in admission to med schools. Duke and other highly selective schools can't give high GPAs for all students.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:IMO one of the largest factors is that medical school (like law school) does not screen for the factors that make for a good practitioner and over relies on grades and test scores. This tends to lead to a glut of medical students with astronomical scores and low social skills / emotional IQ. I don’t care as much about the role of foreign trained physicians as the fact that the structure of premedical and medical education weeds out kids who would be truly terrific doctors, particularly in primary care / peds / geriatrics (where the need is highest and “soft skills” are hugely important. I just finished a non-medical masters program at a top medical school. I was horrified at the utter lack of social skills amongst the so called best and brightest and it wasn’t just the international students by a long shot. Truly, it was so bad I worried for my future medical care. I think something has to change!

This is your opinion. I would rather go to a doctor who is on top of their knowledge, up to date on latest research in their field, good diagnostician, and is thorough. So called “soft skills” rank below all of the above. I would also prefer to trust my life in the hands of an A student rather than a B student.

It is. But I am taking about an A student versus a B+ (maybe at a harder college) student, who can actually make eye contact, have a conversation and communicate. I think thoroughness and diagnostic skills are much easier to teach, than to take a 26 year old with dC- social skills and humazine them.

Then we agree to disagree.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Some posters here seem to think it is easy for a foreign doctor to come to US and do residency. No American teaching hospital is rolling out red carpet to recruit foreign educated doctors. Also, it is not easy to get a visa for foreign doctors to come to US. Given all things otherwise equal, why would any US teaching hospital offer residency to a foreign educated doctor over a US Medical School graduate? If you stop for a second and think logically with open mind you will realize that foreign educated doctors are exceptionally well qualified and overcame many obstacles to be where they are.

Regarding Duke premed students being curved out despite their stellar credentials prior to entering Duke, one doesn't have to be at Duke or other selective schools to go to med school. I know of students who had full ride at UMBC and had more than one med school admission offer each. Yes, undergrad GPA matters in admission to med schools. Duke and other highly selective schools can't give high GPAs for all students.

American college students are relatively unintelligent and lazy. Just go over to AAP forum to see how posters dump on TJ and TJ students saying they are studying too much, robots and how TJ is too difficult etc. Almost all TJ grads have no problem going in to medicine and in fact many go into guaranteed BS/MD programs all over the country. When studying and working hard to learn is denigrated and criticized, do not expect your kids to be equipped to gain admissions to medical schools and graduating from medical schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:IMO one of the largest factors is that medical school (like law school) does not screen for the factors that make for a good practitioner and over relies on grades and test scores. This tends to lead to a glut of medical students with astronomical scores and low social skills / emotional IQ. I don’t care as much about the role of foreign trained physicians as the fact that the structure of premedical and medical education weeds out kids who would be truly terrific doctors, particularly in primary care / peds / geriatrics (where the need is highest and “soft skills” are hugely important. I just finished a non-medical masters program at a top medical school. I was horrified at the utter lack of social skills amongst the so called best and brightest and it wasn’t just the international students by a long shot. Truly, it was so bad I worried for my future medical care. I think something has to change!

This is your opinion. I would rather go to a doctor who is on top of their knowledge, up to date on latest research in their field, good diagnostician, and is thorough. So called “soft skills” rank below all of the above. I would also prefer to trust my life in the hands of an A student rather than a B student.

+1. Soft skills are okay as long as you are getting a flu shot or being treated for a simple sickness. When a patient is facing life or death situation as in a cancer patient, soft skills at the expense of top notch research knowledge is no good. The doctor in the later case needs to be thoroughly aware of latest research, cutting-edge cancer treatments, latest drugs, even latest clinical trials underway, etc. It doesn't cut to say "as long as the doctors are republicans" a la Ronald Reagan.

In some medical specialties, you really shouldn't care much about the doctor's social skills. Surgery comes to mind as patients are willing to put up with a jerk who has magic hands in the operating room, but also radiology, pathology, and anesthesiology.

Surprising that PP mentions oncology, as oncologists are actually known to be among the most empathetic of doctors. You also want a really good listener, combined with a lot of smart, for a doctor diagnosing something more complex and challenging than the usual everyday things like flu, strep, and UTIs.

Many doctors today rely on huge batteries of tests that could be avoided if they actually listened to their patients and did true hands on examinations instead of a drive by thump or two.

[Anonymous]

As someone who had a child who had to be diagnosed with a rare disease and had subsequent treatment, it is very hard to find a doctor who is a decent listener, which is absolutely the most important skill for diagnosis. I learned I had to be very aggressive on behalf of my child and basically be a jerk if I felt like the person in front of me was not taking me seriously. DC is ok but it’s not really thanks to any clinicians unfortunately, except for 1.

[Anonymous]

What's interesting and sad about the this thread is the number of people who are clearly ok with subpar medical care so long as that subpar care comes from an American-trained doctor rather than a foreigner. They value their racism over their health.