Why do top US universities weed out most pre-med kids & then we import foreign MDs?

[Anonymous]

My child has made a similar decision regarding grad school: go to a second tier college for less money, and rise to the top of the class because you are more well qualified than your peers.

She is playing a long game, that thinks way beyond whose parents have a more impressive bumper sticker on their car.

[Anonymous]

I think many can “handle” them but are weeded out because they got a B and not an A. Sure you don’t want someone who failed but I don’t think that’s what we’re talking about here

Bingo and curved against other best of the best, proven 98-99 percentile classmates. Earning a few Bs and Cs can shatter your pre-med dreams -- all because the top 20 college chooses to curve out half of the pre-meds. How is that good for the nation's health care?

This

Though I reread Op post and took offense to what was said re: "foreign" doctors, however MDs or engineers, or other STEM, it's ridiculous that there is so much melt. I am especially appalled by state universities, schools like Virginia Tech. It takes being at the very tippy top academically to be admitted into engineering and then VT flunks most of the students.

[Anonymous]

Here is some data, though I understand many of the posters who are not in the habit of operating from that basis:

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/hsph-in-the-news/foreign-trained-doctors-in-u-s-provide-quality-care/

But maybe they will read it because Harvard thought it was credible enough to cite.

[Anonymous]

How s the college weeding out your DD's friends who were planning to attend med school? Are you aware that you don't have to major in pre-med to apply to med school? You just need to take the pre requisites (which are science based) and that's why most med students are biology or chemistry majors. Organic Chemistry is a TOUGH class so maybe the friends didn't do well, but guess what, Organic Chemistry is on the MCAT and studied n med school so maybe it's IMPORTANT!

You seem to have a lot of knowledge on who is weeded out, but not supplying the specific facts.

Signed, Mom of a kid in his 4th year of med school

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:How s the college weeding out your DD's friends who were planning to attend med school? Are you aware that you don't have to major in pre-med to apply to med school? You just need to take the pre requisites (which are science based) and that's why most med students are biology or chemistry majors. Organic Chemistry is a TOUGH class so maybe the friends didn't do well, but guess what, Organic Chemistry is on the MCAT and studied n med school so maybe it's IMPORTANT!

You seem to have a lot of knowledge on who is weeded out, but not supplying the specific facts.

Signed, Mom of a kid in his 4th year of med school

All those foreign doctors are acing exact orgo chem, etc. courses & posting tippy top MCAT? Yeah, riiiiiight.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I think many can “handle” them but are weeded out because they got a B and not an A. Sure you don’t want someone who failed but I don’t think that’s what we’re talking about here

Bingo and curved against other best of the best, proven 98-99 percentile classmates. Earning a few Bs and Cs can shatter your pre-med dreams -- all because the top 20 college chooses to curve out half of the pre-meds. How is that good for the nation's health care?

Have you ever seen the differences between a A/A- student and a B/C+ student? They are not comparable.

You’re right, they get into an Ivy Duke Northwestern with 98-99 percentile scores and now they’re idiots!

[Anonymous]

It's very frustrating and the US needs more medical schools. Other countries put strict numbers on various STEM majors in order to avoid having too many chemists or whatever in their economy at the same time. Plenty of those kids spurned in their own countries then decide to come to the US.

Med school in the US seems to be set up in a similar fashion but we could use more med schools to churn out doctors. It would be better if the US perhaps limited specialists so we could have more GPs, gerontologists etc. We need more gatekeepers that focus on general health and well-being and they need much more training in nutrition. Lobbying by the food processors, sugar industry etc has led to processed unhealthy foods being cheaper than real food, hence way more disease. It seems that focusing on health/exercise and nutrition by GPs who should be set up and paid in a way that allows for longer appointments with each patient would help cut down costs. Of course this would never fly with our pathetic "for-profit" style healthcare.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I think many can “handle” them but are weeded out because they got a B and not an A. Sure you don’t want someone who failed but I don’t think that’s what we’re talking about here

Bingo and curved against other best of the best, proven 98-99 percentile classmates. Earning a few Bs and Cs can shatter your pre-med dreams -- all because the top 20 college chooses to curve out half of the pre-meds. How is that good for the nation's health care?

Have you ever seen the differences between a A/A- student and a B/C+ student? They are not comparable.

You’re right, they get into an Ivy Duke Northwestern with 98-99 percentile scores and now they’re idiots!

They are not idiots. Just not good enough. Not the same. What is for?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How s the college weeding out your DD's friends who were planning to attend med school? Are you aware that you don't have to major in pre-med to apply to med school? You just need to take the pre requisites (which are science based) and that's why most med students are biology or chemistry majors. Organic Chemistry is a TOUGH class so maybe the friends didn't do well, but guess what, Organic Chemistry is on the MCAT and studied n med school so maybe it's IMPORTANT!

You seem to have a lot of knowledge on who is weeded out, but not supplying the specific facts.

Signed, Mom of a kid in his 4th year of med school

All those foreign doctors are acing exact orgo chem, etc. courses & posting tippy top MCAT? Yeah, riiiiiight.

Foreign med school graduates must take both steps of the US Medical Licensing Exam (USMLE) before they are eligible to apply for residency in the US. These scores would be weighed heavily, and compared to scores of US med school graduates, by institutions that take on residents.

So, yes, foreign med school doctors are competing against US educated students, but not at the high school (SAT) or college (course grades/MCAT) level, but at the med school USMLE level.

Since there are more residency spots than US med school graduates (don't know why so many posters keep insisting the weeding out is the lack of residency, rather than med school, slots) it does give room to admit foreign grads who might have lower USMLE scores. These would be overwhelmingly in primary care specialties because so many US grads eschew them for higher paying specialties, either because they are in medicine in large part for the money or because of the debt burden they carry that many foreign graduates do not.

But for the specialties that are harder to get residencies in, foreign educated doctors face stiff competition from US students.

[Anonymous]

What is sad about this thread is how people's reaction to their child's inability to achieve something they have worked hard for and dreamed about...is the break into tribes.

I don't believe immigrants cheat more or that Americans are lazy. We all want our children to be happy and successful. Do your best not to scapegoat other groups in reaction to your children's disappointments.

Instead, help them regroup and problem-solve. Those skills will serve them well no matter what they wind up doing with their lives.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What is sad about this thread is how people's reaction to their child's inability to achieve something they have worked hard for and dreamed about...is the break into tribes.

I don't believe immigrants cheat more or that Americans are lazy. We all want our children to be happy and successful. Do your best not to scapegoat other groups in reaction to your children's disappointments.

Instead, help them regroup and problem-solve. Those skills will serve them well no matter what they wind up doing with their lives.

It is full of people who did everything possible to get their child into a top ten only to find out that if their child is really interested in medicine and is not naturally in the 98th-99th percentile but got there by all the SAT prep, carefully chosen and lessoned ECs, etc. that they bought, their child actually would have been better off going to a school that looks less impressive on a bumper sticker.

[Anonymous]

Same is true with nursing schools. They are hard to get into and then we hire from 2nd and 3rd world countries to fill our nursing shortages. Why?! Are Jamaican nurses that much more intelligent than the students who were weeded out? Why not increase the spots available to fill the need.

And same with doctors. We have a shortage of pediatricians and general practitioners

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Same is true with nursing schools. They are hard to get into and then we hire from 2nd and 3rd world countries to fill our nursing shortages. Why?! Are Jamaican nurses that much more intelligent than the students who were weeded out? Why not increase the spots available to fill the need.

And same with doctors. We have a shortage of pediatricians and general practitioners

Sorry I love nurses but nursing schools are NOT the same. If you weeded out of nursing program... I may have other issues.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How s the college weeding out your DD's friends who were planning to attend med school? Are you aware that you don't have to major in pre-med to apply to med school? You just need to take the pre requisites (which are science based) and that's why most med students are biology or chemistry majors. Organic Chemistry is a TOUGH class so maybe the friends didn't do well, but guess what, Organic Chemistry is on the MCAT and studied n med school so maybe it's IMPORTANT!

You seem to have a lot of knowledge on who is weeded out, but not supplying the specific facts.

Signed, Mom of a kid in his 4th year of med school

All those foreign doctors are acing exact orgo chem, etc. courses & posting tippy top MCAT? Yeah, riiiiiight.

np - but you sound so narrow minded and, sadly, so american

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Same is true with nursing schools. They are hard to get into and then we hire from 2nd and 3rd world countries to fill our nursing shortages. Why?! Are Jamaican nurses that much more intelligent than the students who were weeded out? Why not increase the spots available to fill the need.

And same with doctors. We have a shortage of pediatricians and general practitioners

There is a nursing shortage in not only this country, but also in countries like the UK. As the population gets older, more healthcare providers are needed. It's why the home healthcare industry is growing.

American doctors don't want to practice family medicine. There's no money in it. That's why a lot of the rural doctors are from foreign countries.

The anecdotal evidence that people are putting forth as examples of how we don't have a shortage is just that.. anecdotal.

Some of you can't even explain why med schools pick foreign students over Americans without resorting to stereotypes.

https://www.aacnnursing.org/News-Information/Fact-Sheets/Nursing-Shortage

https://www.registerednursing.org/largest-nursing-shortages/

https://dakotafreepress.com/2018/09/19/legislature-approves-more-foreign-doctors-fill-unmet-rural-needs/