New math pathway

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, there seems to be a mythical narrative on this board about student performance. For example, the other week there was a parent claiming that 270 was a common map-m score for the mid-4th grade. MCPS stats are slightly higher than the national average. MCPS publishes this but it's only slightly higher. 270 is not a common score, especially for 4th graders. Of course, this has happened but requires a lot of outside enrichment since kids don't teach the concepts to themselves and this isn't happening without exposure.

I’m that pp again. I didn’t say 270 is common. I said that’s the 3rd highest score among my DC’s classmates, and I have no full knowledge of the statistics of the entire class. My DC never goes to any outside math enrichment class other than self-watching Kahn Academy, and playing prodigy as a reward in school. He is in the new math pathway and I think this helps improving his MAP score more or less.

Your kid is an outlier.

pp again. He is an outlier for his home school for sure, but not an outlier for CES. That's why new math pathway can be implemented to a whole class of students. They are all outliers.

Statistically, there should be little more than 120 5th graders with scores over 253 in the entire county based on the national norms published by NWEA. Sure, MCPS may be a little higher but we're not talking more than a few dozen kids total.

What makes you not believe that 28 or so out of the 120 kids are in Cold Spring CES?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, there seems to be a mythical narrative on this board about student performance. For example, the other week there was a parent claiming that 270 was a common map-m score for the mid-4th grade. MCPS stats are slightly higher than the national average. MCPS publishes this but it's only slightly higher. 270 is not a common score, especially for 4th graders. Of course, this has happened but requires a lot of outside enrichment since kids don't teach the concepts to themselves and this isn't happening without exposure.

My kid was always self taught using Khan Academy during regular school instruction time when teacher was busy with kids need extra help at his home school. Now in regional CES 4th grade, MAP-M winter score 269. My kid's MAP-R is always over 99% but is lower than MAP-M, coz there is no self-taught of grammar available through MCPS.

My little one at home school is now in pull-out learning for math concept introduction 2 years in advance. But this only happens once in a while when teacher is not busy, most of the time he is self taught using Khan Academy as well.

I never signed them up for any outside enrichment in math or reading. They learned basic arithmetic concept at preschool. All the rest of learning is self-driven and self-taught.

Sounds like typical CES kids. Let them freely grow and provide as much support as you can. They will flourish.

That's also why I against the new magnet selection criteria: yes, it would give the poor kid scored at 95% in a weak school a greater chance, but it's extremely hard for him to catch-up with the 99% several grade level above peers. So either he suffers if he is the "outlier" of the magnet class, or the entire class is watered down if there are a few of the 95% kids. I'm not talking just about scoring 95% on MAP or PARCC. I'm also talking about CoGAT. You can study hard and catch up with missing knowledge, but you can never reach the pace your 99% peers can reach.

There are a lot of assumptions in your post; for example, there are so many kids with 99% that just aren't enough seats. Sure, it may make parents feel better to believe that their child's spot went to some unworthy kid, but it simply isn't true.

Sure, your interpretation is absolutely possible. But without MCPS provides the statistics, anything can be possible. Indeed, there was posts around here two weeks ago when the TPMS/Eastern invitations sent out, that one kid with 99% MCPS standard across-board being rejected, and another report of 80%+ MCPS standard kid gets accepted.

Also, I'm not saying that my assumption is actually happening in reality. What I was asserting, is that selecting only outliers from each school is not the best way due to aforementioned scenario, because outliers from a W-cluster school is likely very different from outliers from a weak school, and the magnet curriculum is designed to fit the need and challenge the tippy-top student among all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, there seems to be a mythical narrative on this board about student performance. For example, the other week there was a parent claiming that 270 was a common map-m score for the mid-4th grade. MCPS stats are slightly higher than the national average. MCPS publishes this but it's only slightly higher. 270 is not a common score, especially for 4th graders. Of course, this has happened but requires a lot of outside enrichment since kids don't teach the concepts to themselves and this isn't happening without exposure.

My kid was always self taught using Khan Academy during regular school instruction time when teacher was busy with kids need extra help at his home school. Now in regional CES 4th grade, MAP-M winter score 269. My kid's MAP-R is always over 99% but is lower than MAP-M, coz there is no self-taught of grammar available through MCPS.

My little one at home school is now in pull-out learning for math concept introduction 2 years in advance. But this only happens once in a while when teacher is not busy, most of the time he is self taught using Khan Academy as well.

I never signed them up for any outside enrichment in math or reading. They learned basic arithmetic concept at preschool. All the rest of learning is self-driven and self-taught.

Sounds like typical CES kids. Let them freely grow and provide as much support as you can. They will flourish.

That's also why I against the new magnet selection criteria: yes, it would give the poor kid scored at 95% in a weak school a greater chance, but it's extremely hard for him to catch-up with the 99% several grade level above peers. So either he suffers if he is the "outlier" of the magnet class, or the entire class is watered down if there are a few of the 95% kids. I'm not talking just about scoring 95% on MAP or PARCC. I'm also talking about CoGAT. You can study hard and catch up with missing knowledge, but you can never reach the pace your 99% peers can reach.

There are a lot of assumptions in your post; for example, there are so many kids with 99% that just aren't enough seats. Sure, it may make parents feel better to believe that their child's spot went to some unworthy kid, but it simply isn't true.

Sure, your interpretation is absolutely possible. But without MCPS provides the statistics, anything can be possible. Indeed, there was posts around here two weeks ago when the TPMS/Eastern invitations sent out, that one kid with 99% MCPS standard across-board being rejected, and another report of 80%+ MCPS standard kid gets accepted.

Also, I'm not saying that my assumption is actually happening in reality. What I was asserting, is that selecting only outliers from each school is not the best way due to aforementioned scenario, because outliers from a W-cluster school is likely very different from outliers from a weak school, and the magnet curriculum is designed to fit the need and challenge the tippy-top student among all.

Sorry but that is not what MCPS wants and that is not what the BOE wants for the definition of the magnet programs.

7. My child’s scores for the various criteria are in the 90+ percentiles and/or higher levels, why did my child not get selected?
This year, the process looked at all grade five students. This provided information about your student’s performance in addition to their academic peer group. This process considered over 6,900 Grade 5 students. Your child, while high performing, may have an academic peer group at the local school and may not have emerged an outlier within the group

https://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/uploadedFiles/curriculum/specialprograms/middle/Magnet%20FAQs%202019(7).pdf

If you are not happy or not agree, (a) inform the BOE members and (b) use your vote (and your friends' votes) to change the BOE members in the upcoming elections

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, there seems to be a mythical narrative on this board about student performance. For example, the other week there was a parent claiming that 270 was a common map-m score for the mid-4th grade. MCPS stats are slightly higher than the national average. MCPS publishes this but it's only slightly higher. 270 is not a common score, especially for 4th graders. Of course, this has happened but requires a lot of outside enrichment since kids don't teach the concepts to themselves and this isn't happening without exposure.

I’m that pp again. I didn’t say 270 is common. I said that’s the 3rd highest score among my DC’s classmates, and I have no full knowledge of the statistics of the entire class. My DC never goes to any outside math enrichment class other than self-watching Kahn Academy, and playing prodigy as a reward in school. He is in the new math pathway and I think this helps improving his MAP score more or less.

Your kid is an outlier.

pp again. He is an outlier for his home school for sure, but not an outlier for CES. That's why new math pathway can be implemented to a whole class of students. They are all outliers.

Statistically, there should be little more than 120 5th graders with scores over 253 in the entire county based on the national norms published by NWEA. Sure, MCPS may be a little higher but we're not talking more than a few dozen kids total.

What makes you not believe that 28 or so out of the 120 kids are in Cold Spring CES?

If they do then, they have a strong cohort and no need to take up seats at a magnet program.

[Anonymous]

Some of you just cling to those high MAP scores like they’re absolute evidence of your child being gifted. The MAP is an imperfect test and wasn’t designed for this application. It is preppable *by design*. The COGAT is only slightly better! (Here is just some evidence: over 15% of MCPS kids tested in the Top percentile nationally.) MCPS officials are wading through murky waters. Without administering WISC tests to thousands of students this is the best they can do. They are identifying hundreds of kids as high performers. Yes, it was easier to get your kid accepted when all you had to do was ask for testing and compete against a couple hundred other kids. But universal testing is actually turning up kids who are equally bright *and have no peer group at their home middle school*. That’s a good thing to capture. He is more deserving than your high MAP kid—good gravy!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, there seems to be a mythical narrative on this board about student performance. For example, the other week there was a parent claiming that 270 was a common map-m score for the mid-4th grade. MCPS stats are slightly higher than the national average. MCPS publishes this but it's only slightly higher. 270 is not a common score, especially for 4th graders. Of course, this has happened but requires a lot of outside enrichment since kids don't teach the concepts to themselves and this isn't happening without exposure.

I’m that pp again. I didn’t say 270 is common. I said that’s the 3rd highest score among my DC’s classmates, and I have no full knowledge of the statistics of the entire class. My DC never goes to any outside math enrichment class other than self-watching Kahn Academy, and playing prodigy as a reward in school. He is in the new math pathway and I think this helps improving his MAP score more or less.

Your kid is an outlier.

pp again. He is an outlier for his home school for sure, but not an outlier for CES. That's why new math pathway can be implemented to a whole class of students. They are all outliers.

Statistically, there should be little more than 120 5th graders with scores over 253 in the entire county based on the national norms published by NWEA. Sure, MCPS may be a little higher but we're not talking more than a few dozen kids total.

What makes you not believe that 28 or so out of the 120 kids are in Cold Spring CES?

If they do then, they have a strong cohort and no need to take up seats at a magnet program.

Sure. If MCPS can provide the entire magnet curriculum to the cohort, taught by experienced and qualified teacher, and provide contest opportunities to these kids, we will cheer from the bottom of the heart as the parents. Who would like to travel that far away everyday? The reality is, these kids will be spread to three different local MSs. They will not be grouped together for the two magnet courses, which were taught by teachers without preparation nor understanding of the core value of the curriculum, and local MSs don't provide opportunities such like mathcounts unless parents initiate and organize. Now you think we are lucky to have such a great cohort?

[Anonymous]

Sorry but that is not what MCPS wants and that is not what the BOE wants for the definition of the magnet programs.

7. My child’s scores for the various criteria are in the 90+ percentiles and/or higher levels, why did my child not get selected?
This year, the process looked at all grade five students. This provided information about your student’s performance in addition to their academic peer group. This process considered over 6,900 Grade 5 students. Your child, while high performing, may have an academic peer group at the local school and may not have emerged an outlier within the group

https://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/uploadedFiles/.../middle/Magnet%20FAQs%202019(7).pdf

If you are not happy or not agree, (a) inform the BOE members and (b) use your vote (and your friends' votes) to change the BOE members in the upcoming elections

WILD APPLAUSE.

Yes, MCPS is moving away from a system that relies on a child having received significant instruction above grade level in order to access the magnet program. Yes, that means that some kids will arrive at the magnet with the raw potential, but not the exposure, of another child in the magnet.

THAT'S FINE.

That is in fact preferable to a system that can only be accessed if you *already* have all of the resources available.

If that bothers you, please advocate for more above-grade-level instruction in high-needs schools, so that your precious kids won't be held back when those children are in a classroom with them at the magnet.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Some of you just cling to those high MAP scores like they’re absolute evidence of your child being gifted. The MAP is an imperfect test and wasn’t designed for this application. It is preppable *by design*. The COGAT is only slightly better! (Here is just some evidence: over 15% of MCPS kids tested in the Top percentile nationally.) MCPS officials are wading through murky waters. Without administering WISC tests to thousands of students this is the best they can do. They are identifying hundreds of kids as high performers. Yes, it was easier to get your kid accepted when all you had to do was ask for testing and compete against a couple hundred other kids. But universal testing is actually turning up kids who are equally bright *and have no peer group at their home middle school*. That’s a good thing to capture. He is more deserving than your high MAP kid—good gravy!

Who cares if your low MAP kid get into the watered down magnet program! Good for TPMS!

[Anonymous]

There was a new FAQ posted on the website with the appeal information, which says that the mcps percentiles were not based on countywide information. Rather, each student was compared to their own ES's overall SES. Students at the CES were compared to that CES's SES. That means, if your home school was a different SES than your child CES, they may have been calculated under the wrong numbers. Those numbers are then used to calculate the middle school cohort group.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There was a new FAQ posted on the website with the appeal information, which says that the mcps percentiles were not based on countywide information. Rather, each student was compared to their own ES's overall SES. Students at the CES were compared to that CES's SES. That means, if your home school was a different SES than your child CES, they may have been calculated under the wrong numbers. Those numbers are then used to calculate the middle school cohort group.

Where is this posted? Can you post the link? Thanks!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There was a new FAQ posted on the website with the appeal information, which says that the mcps percentiles were not based on countywide information. Rather, each student was compared to their own ES's overall SES. Students at the CES were compared to that CES's SES. That means, if your home school was a different SES than your child CES, they may have been calculated under the wrong numbers. Those numbers are then used to calculate the middle school cohort group.

Where is this posted? Can you post the link? Thanks!

Please, what does SES mean here?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Some of you just cling to those high MAP scores like they’re absolute evidence of your child being gifted. The MAP is an imperfect test and wasn’t designed for this application. It is preppable *by design*. The COGAT is only slightly better! (Here is just some evidence: over 15% of MCPS kids tested in the Top percentile nationally.) MCPS officials are wading through murky waters. Without administering WISC tests to thousands of students this is the best they can do. They are identifying hundreds of kids as high performers. Yes, it was easier to get your kid accepted when all you had to do was ask for testing and compete against a couple hundred other kids. But universal testing is actually turning up kids who are equally bright *and have no peer group at their home middle school*. That’s a good thing to capture. He is more deserving than your high MAP kid—good gravy!

A high map score is a premier indicator of prepping because it shows exposure to concepts not taught in school. It's absolutely not about aptitude or giftedness.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There was a new FAQ posted on the website with the appeal information, which says that the mcps percentiles were not based on countywide information. Rather, each student was compared to their own ES's overall SES. Students at the CES were compared to that CES's SES. That means, if your home school was a different SES than your child CES, they may have been calculated under the wrong numbers. Those numbers are then used to calculate the middle school cohort group.

Where is this posted? Can you post the link? Thanks!

Question 3 here: https://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/uploadedFiles/curriculum/specialprograms/middle/Magnet%20FAQs%202019(7).pdf

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, there seems to be a mythical narrative on this board about student performance. For example, the other week there was a parent claiming that 270 was a common map-m score for the mid-4th grade. MCPS stats are slightly higher than the national average. MCPS publishes this but it's only slightly higher. 270 is not a common score, especially for 4th graders. Of course, this has happened but requires a lot of outside enrichment since kids don't teach the concepts to themselves and this isn't happening without exposure.

I’m that pp again. I didn’t say 270 is common. I said that’s the 3rd highest score among my DC’s classmates, and I have no full knowledge of the statistics of the entire class. My DC never goes to any outside math enrichment class other than self-watching Kahn Academy, and playing prodigy as a reward in school. He is in the new math pathway and I think this helps improving his MAP score more or less.

Your kid is an outlier.

pp again. He is an outlier for his home school for sure, but not an outlier for CES. That's why new math pathway can be implemented to a whole class of students. They are all outliers.

Statistically, there should be little more than 120 5th graders with scores over 253 in the entire county based on the national norms published by NWEA. Sure, MCPS may be a little higher but we're not talking more than a few dozen kids total.

What makes you not believe that 28 or so out of the 120 kids are in Cold Spring CES?

If they do then, they have a strong cohort and no need to take up seats at a magnet program.

Sure. If MCPS can provide the entire magnet curriculum to the cohort, taught by experienced and qualified teacher, and provide contest opportunities to these kids, we will cheer from the bottom of the heart as the parents. Who would like to travel that far away everyday? The reality is, these kids will be spread to three different local MSs. They will not be grouped together for the two magnet courses, which were taught by teachers without preparation nor understanding of the core value of the curriculum, and local MSs don't provide opportunities such like mathcounts unless parents initiate and organize. Now you think we are lucky to have such a great cohort?

MCPS shouldn't bother. These kids at those schools get tons of prep. They'll be fine.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There was a new FAQ posted on the website with the appeal information, which says that the mcps percentiles were not based on countywide information. Rather, each student was compared to their own ES's overall SES. Students at the CES were compared to that CES's SES. That means, if your home school was a different SES than your child CES, they may have been calculated under the wrong numbers. Those numbers are then used to calculate the middle school cohort group.pp

So CES kids should be compared to the non CES homescool because where you live matters more than your school peers? Ok, but then why pursue a magnet spot as you must move to have effect, right?