Discussion over whether to expand Tyler dual-lang program turns to gentrification debate

[Anonymous]

One challenge with immersion is that it's hard for kids to join in when they move in later grades, and poorer kids in DC tend to move more. What do you do when a 4th grader moves IB for a dual-language school or when the charter they've been in counsels them out mid-year?

I think Tyler should go dual-language and Brent should be monolingual (or vice versa), and students in both boundaries should be able to rank their preferences for each. You'd be guaranteed a seat in one of them and there'd be sibling preference to keep families together. Then there would be lots more dual language slots and everyone would still have a monolingual alternative if they wanted it, and both schools would have more racial and economic diversity.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:One challenge with immersion is that it's hard for kids to join in when they move in later grades, and poorer kids in DC tend to move more. What do you do when a 4th grader moves IB for a dual-language school or when the charter they've been in counsels them out mid-year?

I think Tyler should go dual-language and Brent should be monolingual (or vice versa), and students in both boundaries should be able to rank their preferences for each. You'd be guaranteed a seat in one of them and there'd be sibling preference to keep families together. Then there would be lots more dual language slots and everyone would still have a monolingual alternative if they wanted it, and both schools would have more racial and economic diversity.

Every DCPS full dual language school (no English only stream) has a designated monolingual alternative. For example, Oyster students who do not wish to study Spanish, or who move to the boundary zone after 2nd grade, attend SWW @ FS.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why not attend a dual language charter? In theory they have already figured it out, hired the staff, achieved the desired results. Why can’t fokks who want dual language and folks who another emphasis- say STEM or arts integration both be good parents?

because the waitlist for the dual language charters goes sometimes into 1,000 for kids vying for a handful of slots.

They can move inbound for Houston Elementary in Deanwood, or lottery in there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:One challenge with immersion is that it's hard for kids to join in when they move in later grades, and poorer kids in DC tend to move more. What do you do when a 4th grader moves IB for a dual-language school or when the charter they've been in counsels them out mid-year?

I think Tyler should go dual-language and Brent should be monolingual (or vice versa), and students in both boundaries should be able to rank their preferences for each. You'd be guaranteed a seat in one of them and there'd be sibling preference to keep families together. Then there would be lots more dual language slots and everyone would still have a monolingual alternative if they wanted it, and both schools would have more racial and economic diversity.

Isn't there a traditional school that kids are automatically in bounds for? I think that's the way it works at Oyster.

Idea: Tyler becomes all Spanish-immersion, and parents who opt out of that (or move too late) are routed to Brent.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:One challenge with immersion is that it's hard for kids to join in when they move in later grades, and poorer kids in DC tend to move more. What do you do when a 4th grader moves IB for a dual-language school or when the charter they've been in counsels them out mid-year?

I think Tyler should go dual-language and Brent should be monolingual (or vice versa), and students in both boundaries should be able to rank their preferences for each. You'd be guaranteed a seat in one of them and there'd be sibling preference to keep families together. Then there would be lots more dual language slots and everyone would still have a monolingual alternative if they wanted it, and both schools would have more racial and economic diversity.

Every DCPS full dual language school (no English only stream) has a designated monolingual alternative. For example, Oyster students who do not wish to study Spanish, or who move to the boundary zone after 2nd grade, attend SWW @ FS.

Tyler's would be Brent then, right? Since they're so close together.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:One challenge with immersion is that it's hard for kids to join in when they move in later grades, and poorer kids in DC tend to move more. What do you do when a 4th grader moves IB for a dual-language school or when the charter they've been in counsels them out mid-year?

I think Tyler should go dual-language and Brent should be monolingual (or vice versa), and students in both boundaries should be able to rank their preferences for each. You'd be guaranteed a seat in one of them and there'd be sibling preference to keep families together. Then there would be lots more dual language slots and everyone would still have a monolingual alternative if they wanted it, and both schools would have more racial and economic diversity.

Isn't there a traditional school that kids are automatically in bounds for? I think that's the way it works at Oyster.

Idea: Tyler becomes all Spanish-immersion, and parents who opt out of that (or move too late) are routed to Brent.

I'd be fine with that. Since Tyler is bigger, though, it might make more sense for Brent to be Spanish immersion and parents who opt out can go to Tyler. Current kids in Tyler's Spanish program would have the right to transfer, and Tyler IB families could get a preference for Spanish at Brent. Brent would need a bilingual principal though...maybe their current principal could go to New Tyler, but she seems better suited to schools with very little economic diversity.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:One challenge with immersion is that it's hard for kids to join in when they move in later grades, and poorer kids in DC tend to move more. What do you do when a 4th grader moves IB for a dual-language school or when the charter they've been in counsels them out mid-year?

I think Tyler should go dual-language and Brent should be monolingual (or vice versa), and students in both boundaries should be able to rank their preferences for each. You'd be guaranteed a seat in one of them and there'd be sibling preference to keep families together. Then there would be lots more dual language slots and everyone would still have a monolingual alternative if they wanted it, and both schools would have more racial and economic diversity.

Every DCPS full dual language school (no English only stream) has a designated monolingual alternative. For example, Oyster students who do not wish to study Spanish, or who move to the boundary zone after 2nd grade, attend SWW @ FS.

Tyler's would be Brent then, right? Since they're so close together.

Doubtful because Brent is so crowded.

I can't remember the options for Bruce Monroe and Bancroft, the only other 'full school' immersion elementary programs. Anyone know?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I thought the story was poorly done - I’m still not sure why low income families don’t want dual language. The only reason they gave was bc they don’t have time to help with homework, but I don’t speak Spanish and wouldn’t be able to help my kid with Spanish homework either. Seemed like wapo wanted to just debate the issue without proviiding all the facts.

Because if you are not at grade level in your native language and have poor test scores in English and Math, dual language is not a good fit. it's not like speaking two-languages brings advantages just by itself otherwise the local Latino students would overall be doing a lot better at DCPS, at most schools AA and Latino families are two subgroups that need more support. This argument is never clearly articulated when talking about the introduction of dual-language programs.

There are at least 50 peer reviewed studies that find that learning a second language improves performance in the first. The idea that poor children can't handle a second language is nonsense unsupported by research.

What has proven true all over the city is that putting a dual language program in a gentrified neighborhood tends to keep the middle class IB residents in the school, pushing out everyone else. This is why the city has had to introduce dual language lotteries. African American OOB residents who don't have a child at the school already lose access.

Yes. And this is where they lose me - "don't expand programs, because if you do, IB residents may just use them, and then there won't be enough OOB seats" is simply not persuasive.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I thought the story was poorly done - I’m still not sure why low income families don’t want dual language. The only reason they gave was bc they don’t have time to help with homework, but I don’t speak Spanish and wouldn’t be able to help my kid with Spanish homework either. Seemed like wapo wanted to just debate the issue without proviiding all the facts.

Because if you are not at grade level in your native language and have poor test scores in English and Math, dual language is not a good fit. it's not like speaking two-languages brings advantages just by itself otherwise the local Latino students would overall be doing a lot better at DCPS, at most schools AA and Latino families are two subgroups that need more support. This argument is never clearly articulated when talking about the introduction of dual-language programs.

There are at least 50 peer reviewed studies that find that learning a second language improves performance in the first. The idea that poor children can't handle a second language is nonsense unsupported by research.

What has proven true all over the city is that putting a dual language program in a gentrified neighborhood tends to keep the middle class IB residents in the school, pushing out everyone else. This is why the city has had to introduce dual language lotteries. African American OOB residents who don't have a child at the school already lose access.

Yes. And this is where they lose me - "don't expand programs, because if you do, IB residents may just use them, and then there won't be enough OOB seats" is simply not persuasive.

There will be significant OOB students at Tyler if it becomes a full-immersion school -- because they will need to recruit 50% native speakers. Black children who may be OOB and who are English dominant would be displaced by Hispanic, native-speaking children.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:One challenge with immersion is that it's hard for kids to join in when they move in later grades, and poorer kids in DC tend to move more. What do you do when a 4th grader moves IB for a dual-language school or when the charter they've been in counsels them out mid-year?

I think Tyler should go dual-language and Brent should be monolingual (or vice versa), and students in both boundaries should be able to rank their preferences for each. You'd be guaranteed a seat in one of them and there'd be sibling preference to keep families together. Then there would be lots more dual language slots and everyone would still have a monolingual alternative if they wanted it, and both schools would have more racial and economic diversity.

Every DCPS full dual language school (no English only stream) has a designated monolingual alternative. For example, Oyster students who do not wish to study Spanish, or who move to the boundary zone after 2nd grade, attend SWW @ FS.

Tyler's would be Brent then, right? Since they're so close together.

Doubtful because Brent is so crowded.

I can't remember the options for Bruce Monroe and Bancroft, the only other 'full school' immersion elementary programs. Anyone know?

Im IB for Bruce Monroe and I have never heard of another english only school option for us.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:One challenge with immersion is that it's hard for kids to join in when they move in later grades, and poorer kids in DC tend to move more. What do you do when a 4th grader moves IB for a dual-language school or when the charter they've been in counsels them out mid-year?

I think Tyler should go dual-language and Brent should be monolingual (or vice versa), and students in both boundaries should be able to rank their preferences for each. You'd be guaranteed a seat in one of them and there'd be sibling preference to keep families together. Then there would be lots more dual language slots and everyone would still have a monolingual alternative if they wanted it, and both schools would have more racial and economic diversity.

Every DCPS full dual language school (no English only stream) has a designated monolingual alternative. For example, Oyster students who do not wish to study Spanish, or who move to the boundary zone after 2nd grade, attend SWW @ FS.

Tyler's would be Brent then, right? Since they're so close together.

Doubtful because Brent is so crowded.

I can't remember the options for Bruce Monroe and Bancroft, the only other 'full school' immersion elementary programs. Anyone know?

Not sure about BM, but English option for Bancroft is Tubman and the option for Powell is Raymond. But it isn’t reciprocal as it should be. Greater school choice for the affluent in Crestwood and Mount Pleasant and no choice or DL option for all the kids in affordable housing in Columbia Heights.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I thought the story was poorly done - I’m still not sure why low income families don’t want dual language. The only reason they gave was bc they don’t have time to help with homework, but I don’t speak Spanish and wouldn’t be able to help my kid with Spanish homework either. Seemed like wapo wanted to just debate the issue without proviiding all the facts.

Because if you are not at grade level in your native language and have poor test scores in English and Math, dual language is not a good fit. it's not like speaking two-languages brings advantages just by itself otherwise the local Latino students would overall be doing a lot better at DCPS, at most schools AA and Latino families are two subgroups that need more support. This argument is never clearly articulated when talking about the introduction of dual-language programs.

There are at least 50 peer reviewed studies that find that learning a second language improves performance in the first. The idea that poor children can't handle a second language is nonsense unsupported by research.

What has proven true all over the city is that putting a dual language program in a gentrified neighborhood tends to keep the middle class IB residents in the school, pushing out everyone else. This is why the city has had to introduce dual language lotteries. African American OOB residents who don't have a child at the school already lose access.

Yes. And this is where they lose me - "don't expand programs, because if you do, IB residents may just use them, and then there won't be enough OOB seats" is simply not persuasive.

There will be significant OOB students at Tyler if it becomes a full-immersion school -- because they will need to recruit 50% native speakers. Black children who may be OOB and who are English dominant would be displaced by Hispanic, native-speaking children.

They'll get to go to Brent, so doesn't sound too awful.

[Anonymous]

No they would not. These students are OOB now at Tyler (keeping the place afloat / open by enrolling).

Only IB Tyler families would be able to access the alternative — which is NOT likely to be Brent.

Also IB Wnglish families will lose ECE seats. Most of the dual language want at least 50% native speakers in ECE.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I thought the story was poorly done - I’m still not sure why low income families don’t want dual language. The only reason they gave was bc they don’t have time to help with homework, but I don’t speak Spanish and wouldn’t be able to help my kid with Spanish homework either. Seemed like wapo wanted to just debate the issue without proviiding all the facts.

Because if you are not at grade level in your native language and have poor test scores in English and Math, dual language is not a good fit. it's not like speaking two-languages brings advantages just by itself otherwise the local Latino students would overall be doing a lot better at DCPS, at most schools AA and Latino families are two subgroups that need more support. This argument is never clearly articulated when talking about the introduction of dual-language programs.

There are at least 50 peer reviewed studies that find that learning a second language improves performance in the first. The idea that poor children can't handle a second language is nonsense unsupported by research.

What has proven true all over the city is that putting a dual language program in a gentrified neighborhood tends to keep the middle class IB residents in the school, pushing out everyone else. This is why the city has had to introduce dual language lotteries. African American OOB residents who don't have a child at the school already lose access.

Yes. And this is where they lose me - "don't expand programs, because if you do, IB residents may just use them, and then there won't be enough OOB seats" is simply not persuasive.

There will be significant OOB students at Tyler if it becomes a full-immersion school -- because they will need to recruit 50% native speakers. Black children who may be OOB and who are English dominant would be displaced by Hispanic, native-speaking children.

They'll get to go to Brent, so doesn't sound too awful.

Only if DCPS chooses that. Brent families would probably fight it and it would wind up being Payne. That's also a challenge because Payne has a different middle school feeder. Linking Brent and Tyler ultimately keeps all the kids IB for Jefferson, which is simpler. It should be a Brent-Tyler link though, and I've written to the Chancellor and DME and David Gross in support of that kind of consortium.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:One challenge with immersion is that it's hard for kids to join in when they move in later grades, and poorer kids in DC tend to move more. What do you do when a 4th grader moves IB for a dual-language school or when the charter they've been in counsels them out mid-year?

I think Tyler should go dual-language and Brent should be monolingual (or vice versa), and students in both boundaries should be able to rank their preferences for each. You'd be guaranteed a seat in one of them and there'd be sibling preference to keep families together. Then there would be lots more dual language slots and everyone would still have a monolingual alternative if they wanted it, and both schools would have more racial and economic diversity.

Every DCPS full dual language school (no English only stream) has a designated monolingual alternative. For example, Oyster students who do not wish to study Spanish, or who move to the boundary zone after 2nd grade, attend SWW @ FS.

Tyler's would be Brent then, right? Since they're so close together.

Doubtful because Brent is so crowded.

I can't remember the options for Bruce Monroe and Bancroft, the only other 'full school' immersion elementary programs. Anyone know?

Not sure about BM, but English option for Bancroft is Tubman and the option for Powell is Raymond. But it isn’t reciprocal as it should be. Greater school choice for the affluent in Crestwood and Mount Pleasant and no choice or DL option for all the kids in affordable housing in Columbia Heights.

Agreed it makes sense to cluster a monolingual and a bilingual school. I'd like to see Bancroft/Eaton and Powell/Hearst so that WoTP kids who want bilingual don't have to go to charters, and EoTP kids have the chance for Wilson feeders.