Discussion over whether to expand Tyler dual-lang program turns to gentrification debate

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I thought the story was poorly done - I’m still not sure why low income families don’t want dual language. The only reason they gave was bc they don’t have time to help with homework, but I don’t speak Spanish and wouldn’t be able to help my kid with Spanish homework either. Seemed like wapo wanted to just debate the issue without proviiding all the facts.

Because if you are not at grade level in your native language and have poor test scores in English and Math, dual language is not a good fit. it's not like speaking two-languages brings advantages just by itself otherwise the local Latino students would overall be doing a lot better at DCPS, at most schools AA and Latino families are two subgroups that need more support. This argument is never clearly articulated when talking about the introduction of dual-language programs.

I’m the PP you responded to - this is very helpful, thank you! So is the issue that bc they aren’t up to grade level in English and math, dual language exacerbates the problem because they can’t concebtrate on the core subjects and parents also can’t help bc they don’t have time or speak the second language?

white high SES mom here. It's not only about the kids not being on grade level - it's that instruction in a different language just adds another complication and pretty big barrier between parents and teachers. My kid entered K not knowing how to read and write, and I'm glad I and his teachers could just focus in that without the added layer. Plus, I have serious doubts about the effectiveness of the immersion model. Our K teacher focused like a laser on Englisj literacy using her decades of experience and a research-based curriculum. She would not have been able to do that in an immersion model -- there would have simply been less time. Also, who are the immersion teachers? An immersion model means that the pool of effective, experienced teachers is smaller.

I think it’s perfectly within the normal range not to be reading before K. I would not hold back a kid from learning a foreign language for that reason.

I know it's normal - my point is that I want the K curriculum to focus on English, and for the school administration not to be complicated by the demands of the second language, and the teaching staff limited to bilingual teachers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Wow I’m so glad that I can send my kids to an immersion school. Not only is it a great fit for us, but it keeps out ignorant parents who don’t understand immersion or how the mind works.

- middle class non-white special needs parent who is so happy these idiots are scared of foreigners.

lol

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wow I’m so glad that I can send my kids to an immersion school. Not only is it a great fit for us, but it keeps out ignorant parents who don’t understand immersion or how the mind works.

- middle class non-white special needs parent who is so happy these idiots are scared of foreigners.

Ok, I’ll bite.
How does the mind work? And what foreigners has anyone mentioned being afraid of?

Seriously honey, educate yourself. It’s not anyone else’s job. If you’re scared of teaching your kid another language because you think he or she can’t handle it, I worry about your kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wow I’m so glad that I can send my kids to an immersion school. Not only is it a great fit for us, but it keeps out ignorant parents who don’t understand immersion or how the mind works.

- middle class non-white special needs parent who is so happy these idiots are scared of foreigners.

Do you think underprivileged kids get equal access to education in DI programs? Is your child English-dominant?

Yes they get equal access.

Most of the time I feel parents worry about immersion programs hurting English ability, I think that the parents are too lazy for immersion.

Truth hurts? But really thank you. I prefer you guys to those who force a elementary aged kid to magically learn Spanish.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I thought the story was poorly done - I’m still not sure why low income families don’t want dual language. The only reason they gave was bc they don’t have time to help with homework, but I don’t speak Spanish and wouldn’t be able to help my kid with Spanish homework either. Seemed like wapo wanted to just debate the issue without proviiding all the facts.

Because if you are not at grade level in your native language and have poor test scores in English and Math, dual language is not a good fit. it's not like speaking two-languages brings advantages just by itself otherwise the local Latino students would overall be doing a lot better at DCPS, at most schools AA and Latino families are two subgroups that need more support. This argument is never clearly articulated when talking about the introduction of dual-language programs.

There are at least 50 peer reviewed studies that find that learning a second language improves performance in the first. The idea that poor children can't handle a second language is nonsense unsupported by research.

What has proven true all over the city is that putting a dual language program in a gentrified neighborhood tends to keep the middle class IB residents in the school, pushing out everyone else. This is why the city has had to introduce dual language lotteries. African American OOB residents who don't have a child at the school already lose access.

Nope studies are not done on students who are already struggling, if this was true why do we provide extra support to students born in the US but categorized still as ESL because despite all there years in US education still lagging behind.

r

The studies I have read certainly control for initial language skills; i.e., yes they do include students who are struggling, and the results are the same. Most other countries start kids on second languages in elementary school. They somehow manage to turn out kids who aret biliterate and who outscore us on international exams. Some even do it with much lower per capita incomes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wow I’m so glad that I can send my kids to an immersion school. Not only is it a great fit for us, but it keeps out ignorant parents who don’t understand immersion or how the mind works.

- middle class non-white special needs parent who is so happy these idiots are scared of foreigners.

Ok, I’ll bite.
How does the mind work? And what foreigners has anyone mentioned being afraid of?

Seriously honey, educate yourself. It’s not anyone else’s job. If you’re scared of teaching your kid another language because you think he or she can’t handle it, I worry about your kids.

So the brain works by you telling folks they are crappy parents? Gotcha.
Thanks for the ‘schooling’.

[Anonymous]

The period should go inside the fake quotation marks, FYI.

[Anonymous]

Why not attend a dual language charter? In theory they have already figured it out, hired the staff, achieved the desired results. Why can’t fokks who want dual language and folks who another emphasis- say STEM or arts integration both be good parents?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Why not attend a dual language charter? In theory they have already figured it out, hired the staff, achieved the desired results. Why can’t fokks who want dual language and folks who another emphasis- say STEM or arts integration both be good parents?

Because t is hard to get into a dual language charter?

No one said anyone was a bad parent.

Also DCPS is expanding dual language schools not because of the value of the model, but to win parents back from charters.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wow I’m so glad that I can send my kids to an immersion school. Not only is it a great fit for us, but it keeps out ignorant parents who don’t understand immersion or how the mind works.

- middle class non-white special needs parent who is so happy these idiots are scared of foreigners.

Do you think underprivileged kids get equal access to education in DI programs? Is your child English-dominant?

Yes they get equal access.

Most of the time I feel parents worry about immersion programs hurting English ability, I think that the parents are too lazy for immersion.

Truth hurts? But really thank you. I prefer you guys to those who force a elementary aged kid to magically learn Spanish.

Excuse me? We do not have equal access. There is NO immersion program in ward 8.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I thought the story was poorly done - I’m still not sure why low income families don’t want dual language. The only reason they gave was bc they don’t have time to help with homework, but I don’t speak Spanish and wouldn’t be able to help my kid with Spanish homework either. Seemed like wapo wanted to just debate the issue without proviiding all the facts.

Because if you are not at grade level in your native language and have poor test scores in English and Math, dual language is not a good fit. it's not like speaking two-languages brings advantages just by itself otherwise the local Latino students would overall be doing a lot better at DCPS, at most schools AA and Latino families are two subgroups that need more support. This argument is never clearly articulated when talking about the introduction of dual-language programs.

There are at least 50 peer reviewed studies that find that learning a second language improves performance in the first. The idea that poor children can't handle a second language is nonsense unsupported by research.

What has proven true all over the city is that putting a dual language program in a gentrified neighborhood tends to keep the middle class IB residents in the school, pushing out everyone else. This is why the city has had to introduce dual language lotteries. African American OOB residents who don't have a child at the school already lose access.

Nope studies are not done on students who are already struggling, if this was true why do we provide extra support to students born in the US but categorized still as ESL because despite all there years in US education still lagging behind.

r

The studies I have read certainly control for initial language skills; i.e., yes they do include students who are struggling, and the results are the same. Most other countries start kids on second languages in elementary school. They somehow manage to turn out kids who aret biliterate and who outscore us on international exams. Some even do it with much lower per capita incomes.

I'm perfectly happy for my child to get foreign languagd classes. Just not in an immersion setting. I don't care about the research.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why not attend a dual language charter? In theory they have already figured it out, hired the staff, achieved the desired results. Why can’t fokks who want dual language and folks who another emphasis- say STEM or arts integration both be good parents?

Because t is hard to get into a dual language charter?

No one said anyone was a bad parent.

Also DCPS is expanding dual language schools not because of the value of the model, but to win parents back from charters.

So, start a dual language charter.

Also, I am dying to know these stats:
1. Number of native speakers in Tyler Dual language
2. Student retention in Tyler ES (Why did the 5th grade SI have less than 10 students).
3. The test that is used to measure dual language mastery for students at Tyler.
4. The number of kids who are counseled out of the dual language, every year at Tyler ES and put back in creative arts, because they are not 'keeping up'. Why isn't the research working for those kids?
5. The plan to attract and retain native speaker teachers, at Tyler ES.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wow I’m so glad that I can send my kids to an immersion school. Not only is it a great fit for us, but it keeps out ignorant parents who don’t understand immersion or how the mind works.

- middle class non-white special needs parent who is so happy these idiots are scared of foreigners.

Do you think underprivileged kids get equal access to education in DI programs? Is your child English-dominant?

Yes they get equal access.

Most of the time I feel parents worry about immersion programs hurting English ability, I think that the parents are too lazy for immersion.

Truth hurts? But really thank you. I prefer you guys to those who force a elementary aged kid to magically learn Spanish.

What makes you think that the parents on this thread haven't read the available literature and decided against the model? I am willing to bet a lot of money my statistical analysis skills are better than yours. And I went and analyzed the immersion research. Let's just say it's nowhere as robust as you claim, to put it mildly.

That having been said, you certainly are living up to the stereotype of non-native immersion parents.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wow I’m so glad that I can send my kids to an immersion school. Not only is it a great fit for us, but it keeps out ignorant parents who don’t understand immersion or how the mind works.

- middle class non-white special needs parent who is so happy these idiots are scared of foreigners.

Do you think underprivileged kids get equal access to education in DI programs? Is your child English-dominant?

Yes they get equal access.

Most of the time I feel parents worry about immersion programs hurting English ability, I think that the parents are too lazy for immersion.

Truth hurts? But really thank you. I prefer you guys to those who force a elementary aged kid to magically learn Spanish.

What makes you think that the parents on this thread haven't read the available literature and decided against the model? I am willing to bet a lot of money my statistical analysis skills are better than yours. And I went and analyzed the immersion research. Let's just say it's nowhere as robust as you claim, to put it mildly.

That having been said, you certainly are living up to the stereotype of non-native immersion parents.

Another factor is that the all-immersion model would mean that the experienced native English African-American teachers and admins would all get pushed out of the school. I would be livid if that happened - my school would lose some of its best teachers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Why not attend a dual language charter? In theory they have already figured it out, hired the staff, achieved the desired results. Why can’t fokks who want dual language and folks who another emphasis- say STEM or arts integration both be good parents?

because the waitlist for the dual language charters goes sometimes into 1,000 for kids vying for a handful of slots.