Columbia or Harvey Mudd?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, I'm frankly surprised at the number of people claiming they don't know of The Claremont McKenna schools. Mudd in a heartbeat!

What's weird is seeing alleged college snobs not know about them. Some people need to spend more time looking at guides to selective colleges.

That's quite funny. Obviously a college snob that doesn't know about Mudd knows only about elite colleges. You defeat your own argument here, dummy.

[Anonymous]

And not many TJs could get into Mudd because Mudd wants diversity? I love these subtle political jabs.

NP, but I didn't read this as a political jab at all. No college is going to want 5-10% of its class to come from one high school. Nothing to do with race/ethnicity or anything else.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have always though Mudd seems a lot like going to TJ. It’s an amazing education— but only if you are going for the hardcore STEM experience. I would send my hardcore STEM TJ kid to Mudd over Columbia in a heartbeat. The merit money is an added bonus. I think the Mudd name is as strong as or stronger than Columbia among people in engineering, who make decisions on grad schools and hiring. Especially since Columbia is not a T10 Engineering school (Mudd is ranked separately from Columbia by US News because no doctoral program. It is first in its category).

Interestingly, Mudd has the “Wow” factor at TJ among the students. Getting in is considered to be very impressive. But the parents may be a different story— see below. For engineering, Mudd is perceived as stronger than Columbia Engineering, which comes in behind CMU, U. Illinois, GA Tech, Perdue, UT Austin, some of the UCs, etc. in rankings.

Also Mudd only takes a handful of TJ kids. Since their freshman class is only 200 students, they want diversity. Last year, Mudd had 11 applicants from TJ, took 4 students (impressive for a school with a 12% admit rate), and 2 enrolled. Everyone accepted had a 4.35 & 1500 or higher— often much higher.

For contrast (and to provide info on where top engineering students from the DMV are admitted and are headed), some of the T10 engineering schools: applied/ admitted/ attended numbers from TJ last year were:


MIT: 93/10/8
Illinois: 68/48/11
Michigan: 135/62/17
CMU: 140/36/15
Cal Tech: 26/4/1
Berkley: 97/34/11
Purdue:71/46/7
GA Tech: 111/35/1 (not sure what’s up here)
UT- Austin: 28/9/1
USC: 40/12/4

Stanford and Columbia both have lots of kids apply and attend something other than engineering. And Naviance does not separate out acceptances on applications for the engineering schools vs Arts and Sciences. So, it is much more difficult to get a handle on their engineering numbers than it is for the schools above. But, to fill out out the picture:

Stanford: 121/7/5
Columbia: 90/9/4

I am the poster who said Mudd does not have the name recognition among Asians, and I should clarify. I agree that Mudd has a lot of Asian students. But, if TJ is any indication, among the 1st gen Asian parents at TJ, it just does not have name recognition it deserves. I would guess that a lot of the strong Asian applicants are probably kids from the West Coast, where it is better known or have parents who are now t 1st Gen. First Gen Asian parents at TJ with kids who have the stats to get into Mudd are pushing the Ivy’s and UCs instead, apparently because of name recognition and perceived prestige. At least some of the parents really want their kids at colleges that impress relative back in their native country.

Agree that for a kid who is certain they want STEM, Mudd is a no brainer. A kid who does well there will be able to get into Columbia— or better— for grad school. And will have excellent job placement choices. They will be taught by full professors who know their name, not have to compete with grad students for research opportunities, and have to take some humanities classes to graduate (which I view as a positive— I think a well rounded education is a strong education).

Two things to watch though. First, Mudd is known for being very difficult and stressful, and for resisting grade inflation. Their was some type of large student protest about these issues this year. You can google and get the details.

Plus, Mudd only offers a limited number of STEM majors. If your kid is on the fence about math, engineering, etc., and might change their mind, they should go somewhere else where they have more of an ability to change their mind. The CMC schools give you some flexibility in course scheduling, but you can’t just transfer between the schools or take all of your classes at a different school or get a major not offered by your school, in most cases. And you would probably lose the merit aid if you transferred between schools. .

Good luck.. for the right kid, Mudd could be awesome. Just make sure it is right for your kid.

Typical Americans don't know Mudd, not just first gen Asians. And not many TJs could get into Mudd because Mudd wants diversity? I love these subtle political jabs. Mudd, Cal Tech, MIT do not accept those who cannot do the work. These are hardcore STEM schools. Students start with Calculus from Day 1. Anything less, you are already behind.

Quit looking for insults where there are none. By “diversity” I don’t mean race or politics. I mean regional and geographic and academic background diversity. A school with only 200 kids a class does not want 20 of them to be from the same high school, school system, or state. Mudd’s website boasts that they take kids from quite a few different countries, plus over 40 states. They don’t want 20 TJ kids. Not because TJ kids can’t so the work (they can, and you must take AP Calc to graduate), or aren’t qualified (they are) or are mostly Asian. They limit TJ kids (and Blair kids and Stuy kids, etc), because there are only 200 slots, and they are trying to get kids from the south, and URMs, and international students and kids from private schools and kids from urban schools and kids from rural schools. They are not trying to make a class where 80% of the kids come from the top 5-10 STEM HSs in the country.

So, slow your roll. There is no subtle jab at anything. There is just the reality that with a very small class, no one school is going to have every qualified kid admitted. Mudd does not want to be TJ II. And that’s a good thing (even though ai have a TJ kid who wants to go). College is about meeting different people, from different places and being exposed to different ideas. It shouldn’t be that the majority of the class is exact same people you went to HS with.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Academics in STEM will know Harvey Mudd well. It sounds like some PPs are reigniting the debate DCUM so often seems to fall into re. name recognition among lay people and other factors pretty distant from the academic environment.

That said, I agree there are pros and cons to both. You've made a good list, OP. What is your DC thinking?

We can finance Columbia. Daughter definitely prefers the vibe at Mudd, but is afraid about what could happen if she decides she doesn't want to do STEM. All her friends/family are puzzling over Mudd as well, so while she knows Mudd has good tech outcomes, what happens if she didn't want to do that?

Mudd seems like a riskier option, basically.

Not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but I think students at the Claremont colleges can major outside of their own school -- and even if they don't do that, they can certainly take classes outside of their own school -- in case she changes her mind about STEM.

I also second what the uni professor said about LACs being better for undergrads, especially for the scientists.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP here. Did some research on the topic. Students can do either:

Off-campus major with a Harvey Mudd minor

or

Double major in Mudd + off-campus major

However, regardless of whom the student is, they have to complete Mudd's 2 year STEM core which involves one course in bio, one in comp sci, one in engineering, three semesters of math, two and a half semesters of physics + lab, one and a half semesters of chem + lab, and a designated stem lab course. It's a very regimented STEM education no matter who you are.

I think that if your daughter has shown that she can get INTO Mudd she won't have too much trouble with this and this core will do nothing but help her in the long run, even if her major is poetry or art. But it'll certainly help her if she strays less far from STEM, like into the social sciences.

[Anonymous]

I think Mudd prides itself on the % of women (in computer science at least). That might be a point to consider -- what the relative difference is in terms of what each is trying to do to retain/support female students in STEM. Don't know answer, just putting it out there. Also, I went to Pomona & for us Claremont folks, HM is v highly regarded. But outside of Claremont, none of the 5Cs are super well known, if that's a primary factor for you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have always though Mudd seems a lot like going to TJ. It’s an amazing education— but only if you are going for the hardcore STEM experience. I would send my hardcore STEM TJ kid to Mudd over Columbia in a heartbeat. The merit money is an added bonus. I think the Mudd name is as strong as or stronger than Columbia among people in engineering, who make decisions on grad schools and hiring. Especially since Columbia is not a T10 Engineering school (Mudd is ranked separately from Columbia by US News because no doctoral program. It is first in its category).

Interestingly, Mudd has the “Wow” factor at TJ among the students. Getting in is considered to be very impressive. But the parents may be a different story— see below. For engineering, Mudd is perceived as stronger than Columbia Engineering, which comes in behind CMU, U. Illinois, GA Tech, Perdue, UT Austin, some of the UCs, etc. in rankings.

Also Mudd only takes a handful of TJ kids. Since their freshman class is only 200 students, they want diversity. Last year, Mudd had 11 applicants from TJ, took 4 students (impressive for a school with a 12% admit rate), and 2 enrolled. Everyone accepted had a 4.35 & 1500 or higher— often much higher.

For contrast (and to provide info on where top engineering students from the DMV are admitted and are headed), some of the T10 engineering schools: applied/ admitted/ attended numbers from TJ last year were:


MIT: 93/10/8
Illinois: 68/48/11
Michigan: 135/62/17
CMU: 140/36/15
Cal Tech: 26/4/1
Berkley: 97/34/11
Purdue:71/46/7
GA Tech: 111/35/1 (not sure what’s up here)
UT- Austin: 28/9/1
USC: 40/12/4

Stanford and Columbia both have lots of kids apply and attend something other than engineering. And Naviance does not separate out acceptances on applications for the engineering schools vs Arts and Sciences. So, it is much more difficult to get a handle on their engineering numbers than it is for the schools above. But, to fill out out the picture:

Stanford: 121/7/5
Columbia: 90/9/4

I am the poster who said Mudd does not have the name recognition among Asians, and I should clarify. I agree that Mudd has a lot of Asian students. But, if TJ is any indication, among the 1st gen Asian parents at TJ, it just does not have name recognition it deserves. I would guess that a lot of the strong Asian applicants are probably kids from the West Coast, where it is better known or have parents who are now t 1st Gen. First Gen Asian parents at TJ with kids who have the stats to get into Mudd are pushing the Ivy’s and UCs instead, apparently because of name recognition and perceived prestige. At least some of the parents really want their kids at colleges that impress relative back in their native country.

Agree that for a kid who is certain they want STEM, Mudd is a no brainer. A kid who does well there will be able to get into Columbia— or better— for grad school. And will have excellent job placement choices. They will be taught by full professors who know their name, not have to compete with grad students for research opportunities, and have to take some humanities classes to graduate (which I view as a positive— I think a well rounded education is a strong education).

Two things to watch though. First, Mudd is known for being very difficult and stressful, and for resisting grade inflation. Their was some type of large student protest about these issues this year. You can google and get the details.

Plus, Mudd only offers a limited number of STEM majors. If your kid is on the fence about math, engineering, etc., and might change their mind, they should go somewhere else where they have more of an ability to change their mind. The CMC schools give you some flexibility in course scheduling, but you can’t just transfer between the schools or take all of your classes at a different school or get a major not offered by your school, in most cases. And you would probably lose the merit aid if you transferred between schools. .

Good luck.. for the right kid, Mudd could be awesome. Just make sure it is right for your kid.

GA tech gives terrible merit and financial aid. Same with UT- Austin. That is why very little matriculate there.

This is true. DS got in for aerospace engineering but no aid at all. Expensive for OOS.

[Anonymous]

[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]I have always though Mudd seems a lot like going to TJ. It’s an amazing education— but only if you are going for the hardcore STEM experience. I would send my hardcore STEM TJ kid to Mudd over Columbia in a heartbeat. The merit money is an added bonus. I think the Mudd name is as strong as or stronger than Columbia among people in engineering, who make decisions on grad schools and hiring. Especially since Columbia is not a T10 Engineering school (Mudd is ranked separately from Columbia by US News because no doctoral program. It is first in its category).

Interestingly, Mudd has the “Wow” factor at TJ among the students. Getting in is considered to be very impressive. But the parents may be a different story— see below. For engineering, Mudd is perceived as stronger than Columbia Engineering, which comes in behind CMU, U. Illinois, GA Tech, Perdue, UT Austin, some of the UCs, etc. in rankings.

Also Mudd only takes a handful of TJ kids. Since their freshman class is only 200 students, they want diversity. Last year, Mudd had 11 applicants from TJ, took 4 students (impressive for a school with a 12% admit rate), and 2 enrolled. Everyone accepted had a 4.35 & 1500 or higher— often much higher.

For contrast (and to provide info on where top engineering students from the DMV are admitted and are headed), some of the T10 engineering schools: applied/ admitted/ attended numbers from TJ last year were:


MIT: 93/10/8
Illinois: 68/48/11
Michigan: 135/62/17
CMU: 140/36/15
Cal Tech: 26/4/1
Berkley: 97/34/11
Purdue:71/46/7
GA Tech: 111/35/1 (not sure what’s up here)
UT- Austin: 28/9/1
USC: 40/12/4

Stanford and Columbia both have lots of kids apply and attend something other than engineering. And Naviance does not separate out acceptances on applications for the engineering schools vs Arts and Sciences. So, it is much more difficult to get a handle on their engineering numbers than it is for the schools above. But, to fill out out the picture:

Stanford: 121/7/5
Columbia: 90/9/4

I am the poster who said Mudd does not have the name recognition among Asians, and I should clarify. I agree that Mudd has a lot of Asian students. But, if TJ is any indication, among the 1st gen Asian parents at TJ, it just does not have name recognition it deserves. I would guess that a lot of the strong Asian applicants are probably kids from the West Coast, where it is better known or have parents who are now t 1st Gen. First Gen Asian parents at TJ with kids who have the stats to get into Mudd are pushing the Ivy’s and UCs instead, apparently because of name recognition and perceived prestige. At least some of the parents really want their kids at colleges that impress relative back in their native country.

Agree that for a kid who is certain they want STEM, Mudd is a no brainer. A kid who does well there will be able to get into Columbia— or better— for grad school. And will have excellent job placement choices. They will be taught by full professors who know their name, not have to compete with grad students for research opportunities, and have to take some humanities classes to graduate (which I view as a positive— I think a well rounded education is a strong education).

Two things to watch though. First, Mudd is known for being very difficult and stressful, and for resisting grade inflation. Their was some type of large student protest about these issues this year. You can google and get the details.

Plus, Mudd only offers a limited number of STEM majors. If your kid is on the fence about math, engineering, etc., and might change their mind, they should go somewhere else where they have more of an ability to change their mind. The CMC schools give you some flexibility in course scheduling, but you can’t just transfer between the schools or take all of your classes at a different school or get a major not offered by your school, in most cases. And you would probably lose the merit aid if you transferred between schools. .

Good luck.. for the right kid, Mudd could be awesome. Just make sure it is right for your kid.

[/quote]

Typical Americans don't know Mudd, not just first gen Asians. And not many TJs could get into Mudd because Mudd wants diversity? I love these subtle political jabs. Mudd, Cal Tech, MIT do not accept those who cannot do the work. These are hardcore STEM schools. Students start with Calculus from Day 1. Anything less, you are already behind. [/quote]

Quit looking for insults where there are none. By “diversity” I don’t mean race or politics. I mean regional and geographic and academic background diversity. A school with only 200 kids a class does not want 20 of them to be from the same high school, school system, or state. Mudd’s website boasts that they take kids from quite a few different countries, plus over 40 states. They don’t want 20 TJ kids. Not because TJ kids can’t so the work (they can, and you must take AP Calc to graduate), or aren’t qualified (they are) or are mostly Asian. They limit TJ kids (and Blair kids and Stuy kids, etc), because there are only 200 slots, and they are trying to get kids from the south, and URMs, and international students and kids from private schools and kids from urban schools and kids from rural schools. They are not trying to make a class where 80% of the kids come from the top 5-10 STEM HSs in the country.

So, slow your roll. There is no subtle jab at anything. There is just the reality that with a very small class, no one school is going to have every qualified kid admitted. Mudd does not want to be TJ II. And that’s a good thing (even though ai have a TJ kid who wants to go). College is about meeting different people, from different places and being exposed to different ideas. It shouldn’t be that the majority of the class is exact same people you went to HS with. [/quote]

This is weird, it's Mudd v. Columbia. Not sure who JT is. Not from that part of the country, so your thread looks like it's all over the map. But possibly you are in the wrong thread; maybe you are looking for TJ thread.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Academics in STEM will know Harvey Mudd well. It sounds like some PPs are reigniting the debate DCUM so often seems to fall into re. name recognition among lay people and other factors pretty distant from the academic environment.

That said, I agree there are pros and cons to both. You've made a good list, OP. What is your DC thinking?

We can finance Columbia. Daughter definitely prefers the vibe at Mudd, but is afraid about what could happen if she decides she doesn't want to do STEM. All her friends/family are puzzling over Mudd as well, so while she knows Mudd has good tech outcomes, what happens if she didn't want to do that?

Mudd seems like a riskier option, basically.

Puzzling? That seems dumb. Google the School and stop puzzling.

[Anonymous]

I would take any of the 5C before Columbia. Quality of life to undergrads is important. Go to Columbia for grad school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Academics in STEM will know Harvey Mudd well. It sounds like some PPs are reigniting the debate DCUM so often seems to fall into re. name recognition among lay people and other factors pretty distant from the academic environment.

That said, I agree there are pros and cons to both. You've made a good list, OP. What is your DC thinking?

We can finance Columbia. Daughter definitely prefers the vibe at Mudd, but is afraid about what could happen if she decides she doesn't want to do STEM. All her friends/family are puzzling over Mudd as well, so while she knows Mudd has good tech outcomes, what happens if she didn't want to do that?

Mudd seems like a riskier option, basically.

Puzzling? That seems dumb. Google the School and stop puzzling.

What's puzzling is why this is such an issue, full pay vs. full pay. We aren't talking No Name State Uni vs. Columbia. We are talking Mudd vs. Columbia. Both are absolutely fine schools. But then, I am not OP.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think Mudd prides itself on the % of women (in computer science at least). That might be a point to consider -- what the relative difference is in terms of what each is trying to do to retain/support female students in STEM. Don't know answer, just putting it out there. Also, I went to Pomona & for us Claremont folks, HM is v highly regarded. But outside of Claremont, none of the 5Cs are super well known, if that's a primary factor for you.

This is going to depend on who you're talking about. I'm a political science PhD and any of the Claremont schools would be seen as prestigious (except for perhaps Pitzer... sorry Pitzer...). For graduate school of any kind, the 5Cs are a great gateway.

For the general population, Columbia is clearly going to be better known. But I'm not sure how much that matters; people who do hiring in STEM will definitely have heard of HM, and if they haven't there's something wrong.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I would take any of the 5C before Columbia. Quality of life to undergrads is important. Go to Columbia for grad school.

And the quality of life really sucks in dreary old Manhattan?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would take any of the 5C before Columbia. Quality of life to undergrads is important. Go to Columbia for grad school.

And the quality of life really sucks in dreary old Manhattan?

Yes, it does. Columbia campus is tight and old. Manhattan smells and is extremely overpriced for what you get. School spirit is abysmal. The OP’s daughter wasn’t feeling it. Some people love NY and some hate it. Why send her somewhere she doesn’t want to go?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would take any of the 5C before Columbia. Quality of life to undergrads is important. Go to Columbia for grad school.

And the quality of life really sucks in dreary old Manhattan?

Yes Manhattan is tough and wears people out. Also depends on what you want to do after school. California vs NYC...computer science, etc California hands down.