Columbia or Harvey Mudd?

[Anonymous]

It's bigger than the Caucasian population, yes.

[Anonymous]

Mudd is a better school. They only focus on undergrad. Small classes. Professors work with them directly. Beautiful weather. 5,000 other people to be around from other colleges.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:And what about Harvey? Can student switch to Pomona, or other 5Cs?

Anonymous wrote:Can't she transfer to one of the other Claremont colleges? She is admitted to Fu SEAS, right? That is pretty steamy, too.

She should go to Mudd for almost free, and if it doesn't work out, transfer. She didn't like the vibe at Columbia.

You can't just "switch". It's not automatic. You have to apply. Being at one of the other 5 colleges confers no more advantage than applying from anywhere else.

[Anonymous]

The other thing is- besides Pomona, are the other colleges even in the same league (and even Pomona is debatable)? With Columbia, you're getting both a strong humanities and STEM education. It's not too bad to move from Fu to CC (the flipside is much tougher). Not only are the 5Cs difficult to transfer into (CMC/Pitzer/Pomona all have <10% transfer acceptance rates), I'd always wonder if I made a mistake of going to CMC/Pitzer/Scripps when I could have gone to Columbia. Not to say those aren't good schools- absolutely, they are- but there's an option to go to one of the most coveted schools right now that might not ever come up again.

[Anonymous]

I went to Harvey Mudd for undergrad.

If you want to go to Mudd, you'd better be very, very, very sure you like STEM. It is intense. They weed out a lot of kids sophomore year (i.e., they flunk). I had a number of friends who took liberal arts courses at the other colleges, and they wound up realizing they didn't want to do STEM. This is a very common thing to happen at Mudd. They faced the choice you described: "she knows Mudd has good tech outcomes, what happens if she didn't want to do that?" Some of them transferred to other schools, others dropped out of school altogether. Many of them wished they had gone to a larger school with non-STEM options. For that reason, I'd probably lean towards Columbia in your daughter's case.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I went to Harvey Mudd for undergrad.

If you want to go to Mudd, you'd better be very, very, very sure you like STEM. It is intense. They weed out a lot of kids sophomore year (i.e., they flunk). I had a number of friends who took liberal arts courses at the other colleges, and they wound up realizing they didn't want to do STEM. This is a very common thing to happen at Mudd. They faced the choice you described: "she knows Mudd has good tech outcomes, what happens if she didn't want to do that?" Some of them transferred to other schools, others dropped out of school altogether. Many of them wished they had gone to a larger school with non-STEM options. For that reason, I'd probably lean towards Columbia in your daughter's case.

This is not really so common these days. Mudd had a 6-year graduation rate of 96% and a retention rate of 98% for the most recent cohort. In other words- over six years, only 4% of the class entering in 2010 either transferred or dropped out of Mudd. These are the highest numbers I've seen, not only at a LAC but also at a university (Brown, Stanford, Duke, Berkeley are some which have also posted the latest Common Data Set). Your point remains true that one needs to be very committed to STEM for Mudd, but "flunking out", "transferring" is really not common for Mudd students.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Academics in STEM will know Harvey Mudd well. It sounds like some PPs are reigniting the debate DCUM so often seems to fall into re. name recognition among lay people and other factors pretty distant from the academic environment.

That said, I agree there are pros and cons to both. You've made a good list, OP. What is your DC thinking?

We can finance Columbia. Daughter definitely prefers the vibe at Mudd, but is afraid about what could happen if she decides she doesn't want to do STEM. All her friends/family are puzzling over Mudd as well, so while she knows Mudd has good tech outcomes, what happens if she didn't want to do that?

Mudd seems like a riskier option, basically.

Is the concern here that she might want to switch out of STEM to something else, or that she might washout of the Mudd program? It's very difficult to imagine Mudd accepts students who couldn't handle the program. My guess is Mudd also has all the academic support, including access to profs, typical of a SLAC.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have a Kid at TJ who would love to go to Mudd for Engineering for undergrad. Most kids he knows who are interested in engineering are looking at applying— except the 1st Gen Asian kid whose parents don’t think a school has no value unless it is an Ivy. It’s small— about 200 kids total per class- and it does offer merit aid. No grad school, which I think can be a huge positive. Very small classes and profs focused on the undergrads. Lots of research opportunities. Most classes under 20 kids, and not big lectures.

Flyover America is probably unaware of Mudd, but people who know about STEM definitely know and respect it. A kid who graduates from Mudd will have no trouble going to any grad school, anywhere.

Mudd offers degrees in other STEM fields as well.


75% SATs are 1580. They want kids who can handle STEM and basic humanities. It’s a wonderful opportunity.

Yes, I'm frankly surprised at the number of people claiming they don't know of The Claremont McKenna schools. Mudd in a heartbeat!

I bet Mudd has a significant Asian population.

And?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have a Kid at TJ who would love to go to Mudd for Engineering for undergrad. Most kids he knows who are interested in engineering are looking at applying— except the 1st Gen Asian kid whose parents don’t think a school has no value unless it is an Ivy. It’s small— about 200 kids total per class- and it does offer merit aid. No grad school, which I think can be a huge positive. Very small classes and profs focused on the undergrads. Lots of research opportunities. Most classes under 20 kids, and not big lectures.

Flyover America is probably unaware of Mudd, but people who know about STEM definitely know and respect it. A kid who graduates from Mudd will have no trouble going to any grad school, anywhere.

Mudd offers degrees in other STEM fields as well.


75% SATs are 1580. They want kids who can handle STEM and basic humanities. It’s a wonderful opportunity.

Yes, I'm frankly surprised at the number of people claiming they don't know of The Claremont McKenna schools. Mudd in a heartbeat!

I bet Mudd has a significant Asian population.

And?

Most Asians know Mudd.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP here. Did some research on the topic. Students can do either:

Off-campus major with a Harvey Mudd minor

or

Double major in Mudd + off-campus major

However, regardless of whom the student is, they have to complete Mudd's 2 year STEM core which involves one course in bio, one in comp sci, one in engineering, three semesters of math, two and a half semesters of physics + lab, one and a half semesters of chem + lab, and a designated stem lab course. It's a very regimented STEM education no matter who you are.

Maybe most of those courses should really be required for all bachelor's degrees. Every college graduate really should have at least a baby physics class, for example.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Yes, I'm frankly surprised at the number of people claiming they don't know of The Claremont McKenna schools. Mudd in a heartbeat!

What's weird is seeing alleged college snobs not know about them. Some people need to spend more time looking at guides to selective colleges.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. Did some research on the topic. Students can do either:

Off-campus major with a Harvey Mudd minor

or

Double major in Mudd + off-campus major

However, regardless of whom the student is, they have to complete Mudd's 2 year STEM core which involves one course in bio, one in comp sci, one in engineering, three semesters of math, two and a half semesters of physics + lab, one and a half semesters of chem + lab, and a designated stem lab course. It's a very regimented STEM education no matter who you are.

Maybe most of those courses should really be required for all bachelor's degrees. Every college graduate really should have at least a baby physics class, for example.

Those may be engineering core courses. All engineering majors - Civil, Electrical, General, Chemical, Mechanical, Biological - require certain foundational courses. They sound like engineering foundational courses.

[Anonymous]

I have always though Mudd seems a lot like going to TJ. It’s an amazing education— but only if you are going for the hardcore STEM experience. I would send my hardcore STEM TJ kid to Mudd over Columbia in a heartbeat. The merit money is an added bonus. I think the Mudd name is as strong as or stronger than Columbia among people in engineering, who make decisions on grad schools and hiring. Especially since Columbia is not a T10 Engineering school (Mudd is ranked separately from Columbia by US News because no doctoral program. It is first in its category).

Interestingly, Mudd has the “Wow” factor at TJ among the students. Getting in is considered to be very impressive. But the parents may be a different story— see below. For engineering, Mudd is perceived as stronger than Columbia Engineering, which comes in behind CMU, U. Illinois, GA Tech, Perdue, UT Austin, some of the UCs, etc. in rankings.

Also Mudd only takes a handful of TJ kids. Since their freshman class is only 200 students, they want diversity. Last year, Mudd had 11 applicants from TJ, took 4 students (impressive for a school with a 12% admit rate), and 2 enrolled. Everyone accepted had a 4.35 & 1500 or higher— often much higher.

For contrast (and to provide info on where top engineering students from the DMV are admitted and are headed), some of the T10 engineering schools: applied/ admitted/ attended numbers from TJ last year were:


MIT: 93/10/8
Illinois: 68/48/11
Michigan: 135/62/17
CMU: 140/36/15
Cal Tech: 26/4/1
Berkley: 97/34/11
Purdue:71/46/7
GA Tech: 111/35/1 (not sure what’s up here)
UT- Austin: 28/9/1
USC: 40/12/4

Stanford and Columbia both have lots of kids apply and attend something other than engineering. And Naviance does not separate out acceptances on applications for the engineering schools vs Arts and Sciences. So, it is much more difficult to get a handle on their engineering numbers than it is for the schools above. But, to fill out out the picture:

Stanford: 121/7/5
Columbia: 90/9/4

I am the poster who said Mudd does not have the name recognition among Asians, and I should clarify. I agree that Mudd has a lot of Asian students. But, if TJ is any indication, among the 1st gen Asian parents at TJ, it just does not have name recognition it deserves. I would guess that a lot of the strong Asian applicants are probably kids from the West Coast, where it is better known or have parents who are now t 1st Gen. First Gen Asian parents at TJ with kids who have the stats to get into Mudd are pushing the Ivy’s and UCs instead, apparently because of name recognition and perceived prestige. At least some of the parents really want their kids at colleges that impress relative back in their native country.

Agree that for a kid who is certain they want STEM, Mudd is a no brainer. A kid who does well there will be able to get into Columbia— or better— for grad school. And will have excellent job placement choices. They will be taught by full professors who know their name, not have to compete with grad students for research opportunities, and have to take some humanities classes to graduate (which I view as a positive— I think a well rounded education is a strong education).

Two things to watch though. First, Mudd is known for being very difficult and stressful, and for resisting grade inflation. Their was some type of large student protest about these issues this year. You can google and get the details.

Plus, Mudd only offers a limited number of STEM majors. If your kid is on the fence about math, engineering, etc., and might change their mind, they should go somewhere else where they have more of an ability to change their mind. The CMC schools give you some flexibility in course scheduling, but you can’t just transfer between the schools or take all of your classes at a different school or get a major not offered by your school, in most cases. And you would probably lose the merit aid if you transferred between schools. .

Good luck.. for the right kid, Mudd could be awesome. Just make sure it is right for your kid.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I have always though Mudd seems a lot like going to TJ. It’s an amazing education— but only if you are going for the hardcore STEM experience. I would send my hardcore STEM TJ kid to Mudd over Columbia in a heartbeat. The merit money is an added bonus. I think the Mudd name is as strong as or stronger than Columbia among people in engineering, who make decisions on grad schools and hiring. Especially since Columbia is not a T10 Engineering school (Mudd is ranked separately from Columbia by US News because no doctoral program. It is first in its category).

Interestingly, Mudd has the “Wow” factor at TJ among the students. Getting in is considered to be very impressive. But the parents may be a different story— see below. For engineering, Mudd is perceived as stronger than Columbia Engineering, which comes in behind CMU, U. Illinois, GA Tech, Perdue, UT Austin, some of the UCs, etc. in rankings.

Also Mudd only takes a handful of TJ kids. Since their freshman class is only 200 students, they want diversity. Last year, Mudd had 11 applicants from TJ, took 4 students (impressive for a school with a 12% admit rate), and 2 enrolled. Everyone accepted had a 4.35 & 1500 or higher— often much higher.

For contrast (and to provide info on where top engineering students from the DMV are admitted and are headed), some of the T10 engineering schools: applied/ admitted/ attended numbers from TJ last year were:


MIT: 93/10/8
Illinois: 68/48/11
Michigan: 135/62/17
CMU: 140/36/15
Cal Tech: 26/4/1
Berkley: 97/34/11
Purdue:71/46/7
GA Tech: 111/35/1 (not sure what’s up here)
UT- Austin: 28/9/1
USC: 40/12/4

Stanford and Columbia both have lots of kids apply and attend something other than engineering. And Naviance does not separate out acceptances on applications for the engineering schools vs Arts and Sciences. So, it is much more difficult to get a handle on their engineering numbers than it is for the schools above. But, to fill out out the picture:

Stanford: 121/7/5
Columbia: 90/9/4

I am the poster who said Mudd does not have the name recognition among Asians, and I should clarify. I agree that Mudd has a lot of Asian students. But, if TJ is any indication, among the 1st gen Asian parents at TJ, it just does not have name recognition it deserves. I would guess that a lot of the strong Asian applicants are probably kids from the West Coast, where it is better known or have parents who are now t 1st Gen. First Gen Asian parents at TJ with kids who have the stats to get into Mudd are pushing the Ivy’s and UCs instead, apparently because of name recognition and perceived prestige. At least some of the parents really want their kids at colleges that impress relative back in their native country.

Agree that for a kid who is certain they want STEM, Mudd is a no brainer. A kid who does well there will be able to get into Columbia— or better— for grad school. And will have excellent job placement choices. They will be taught by full professors who know their name, not have to compete with grad students for research opportunities, and have to take some humanities classes to graduate (which I view as a positive— I think a well rounded education is a strong education).

Two things to watch though. First, Mudd is known for being very difficult and stressful, and for resisting grade inflation. Their was some type of large student protest about these issues this year. You can google and get the details.

Plus, Mudd only offers a limited number of STEM majors. If your kid is on the fence about math, engineering, etc., and might change their mind, they should go somewhere else where they have more of an ability to change their mind. The CMC schools give you some flexibility in course scheduling, but you can’t just transfer between the schools or take all of your classes at a different school or get a major not offered by your school, in most cases. And you would probably lose the merit aid if you transferred between schools. .

Good luck.. for the right kid, Mudd could be awesome. Just make sure it is right for your kid.

Typical Americans don't know Mudd, not just first gen Asians. And not many TJs could get into Mudd because Mudd wants diversity? I love these subtle political jabs. Mudd, Cal Tech, MIT do not accept those who cannot do the work. These are hardcore STEM schools. Students start with Calculus from Day 1. Anything less, you are already behind.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I have always though Mudd seems a lot like going to TJ. It’s an amazing education— but only if you are going for the hardcore STEM experience. I would send my hardcore STEM TJ kid to Mudd over Columbia in a heartbeat. The merit money is an added bonus. I think the Mudd name is as strong as or stronger than Columbia among people in engineering, who make decisions on grad schools and hiring. Especially since Columbia is not a T10 Engineering school (Mudd is ranked separately from Columbia by US News because no doctoral program. It is first in its category).

Interestingly, Mudd has the “Wow” factor at TJ among the students. Getting in is considered to be very impressive. But the parents may be a different story— see below. For engineering, Mudd is perceived as stronger than Columbia Engineering, which comes in behind CMU, U. Illinois, GA Tech, Perdue, UT Austin, some of the UCs, etc. in rankings.

Also Mudd only takes a handful of TJ kids. Since their freshman class is only 200 students, they want diversity. Last year, Mudd had 11 applicants from TJ, took 4 students (impressive for a school with a 12% admit rate), and 2 enrolled. Everyone accepted had a 4.35 & 1500 or higher— often much higher.

For contrast (and to provide info on where top engineering students from the DMV are admitted and are headed), some of the T10 engineering schools: applied/ admitted/ attended numbers from TJ last year were:


MIT: 93/10/8
Illinois: 68/48/11
Michigan: 135/62/17
CMU: 140/36/15
Cal Tech: 26/4/1
Berkley: 97/34/11
Purdue:71/46/7
GA Tech: 111/35/1 (not sure what’s up here)
UT- Austin: 28/9/1
USC: 40/12/4

Stanford and Columbia both have lots of kids apply and attend something other than engineering. And Naviance does not separate out acceptances on applications for the engineering schools vs Arts and Sciences. So, it is much more difficult to get a handle on their engineering numbers than it is for the schools above. But, to fill out out the picture:

Stanford: 121/7/5
Columbia: 90/9/4

I am the poster who said Mudd does not have the name recognition among Asians, and I should clarify. I agree that Mudd has a lot of Asian students. But, if TJ is any indication, among the 1st gen Asian parents at TJ, it just does not have name recognition it deserves. I would guess that a lot of the strong Asian applicants are probably kids from the West Coast, where it is better known or have parents who are now t 1st Gen. First Gen Asian parents at TJ with kids who have the stats to get into Mudd are pushing the Ivy’s and UCs instead, apparently because of name recognition and perceived prestige. At least some of the parents really want their kids at colleges that impress relative back in their native country.

Agree that for a kid who is certain they want STEM, Mudd is a no brainer. A kid who does well there will be able to get into Columbia— or better— for grad school. And will have excellent job placement choices. They will be taught by full professors who know their name, not have to compete with grad students for research opportunities, and have to take some humanities classes to graduate (which I view as a positive— I think a well rounded education is a strong education).

Two things to watch though. First, Mudd is known for being very difficult and stressful, and for resisting grade inflation. Their was some type of large student protest about these issues this year. You can google and get the details.

Plus, Mudd only offers a limited number of STEM majors. If your kid is on the fence about math, engineering, etc., and might change their mind, they should go somewhere else where they have more of an ability to change their mind. The CMC schools give you some flexibility in course scheduling, but you can’t just transfer between the schools or take all of your classes at a different school or get a major not offered by your school, in most cases. And you would probably lose the merit aid if you transferred between schools. .

Good luck.. for the right kid, Mudd could be awesome. Just make sure it is right for your kid.

GA tech gives terrible merit and financial aid. Same with UT- Austin. That is why very little matriculate there.