How many more tragedies before fraternities and sororities are finally history
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Anonymous
I've seen plenty of peers drunk like that, and sure, they live to tell about it, but I have also called 911 when I wasn't sure. Once when a girlfriend drank what seemed like a normal amount, but was having a hard time standing up, was slurring, eyes going in and out of focus, etc., and once when a boy I had never met before got blackout drunk and we couldn't wake him up or move him from the couch and his breathing was weirdly shallow and scary. While I would rather prefer that my kids not have quite as much exposure to that level of substance abuse among teenagers, I do want them to know that it's okay to call an ambulance if someone seems beyond the usual level of drunk, particularly someone they do not know well or at all. You never know when someone has a medical issue that may be exacerbated by alcohol or what someone's experience level is with drinking. |
Anonymous
| Until a university has a huge multi-million payout there won't be a real change in what goes on. Banning a fraternity or a sorority is a good first step as it temporarily sends a message to the others. |
Anonymous
The kid at Penn State was a pledge at a fraternity. Probably most of the people in that house had some idea who he was. And I am going to guess that he had drank with at least some of them before that night and was no worse for the wear from it. It's hard to imagine a guy drinking 18 alcoholic beverages during his first encounter with alcohol, so that also makes me suspect that he had some level of tolerance for alcohol. I guess what I'm saying is that people knew this guy, they had likely seen him drink to excess before but never as much as he did that night. Were the other kids all keeping track of how much he was drinking or were they drinking heavily, too? There is no question that at some point they all realized that the kid was passed out drunk, unresponsive and in trouble. What they did after they realized that he was in dire medical distress is just beyond my comprehension. I don't think I can quite wrap my head around their complete and total disregard for his life. |
Anonymous
Is Penn State any part of this lawsuit? |
Anonymous
At this point it's a criminal trial against some of the fraternity members, not a lawsuit. Once the criminal trial is over, the parents may decide bring a lawsuit. |
Anonymous
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Frank Bruni calls for the death of college greek life in today's nyt
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/17/opinion/pledges-fraternities-violence-deaths.html |
Anonymous
Yeah I definitely see what you're saying - there's a judgment call involved, and it's one that in my ways an 18 year old is not equipped to make. If I had called 911 everytime I had seen someone black out, stumbling drunk or slurring words and passing out, I would have been calling 911 multiple times a week, honestly. Like it or not, college kids get way too drunk so regularly that it's not even a notable event. HOWEVER: if someone has suffered a clear PHYSICAL injury (in this case, it was MULTIPLE) in addition to being way too drunk...OR (and in this case it was AND) is completely unresponsive and cannot physically be roused...you call 911. OBVIOUSLY. An 18 year old can absolutely be expected to know that. This one just wasn't even a close call. The big issue with fraternity incidents, in addition to hazing (which just does not come into play at off campus / apartment parties) is the whole liability thing. There is such 'incentive' for them not to call because there will absolutely be repercussions - serious and widespread ones that come down on the whole organization. There is the group mentality / pressure that is just not there in such an organized fashion at off campus parties. All of this said, I am a girl I had a totally fine experience with regards to frat prties when I was in college. Obviously everyone's experience was not like mine (and I'm sure you could even find other girls at my school that felt differently), but I went to these parties in groups with other girls and danced and socialized and became friends with and dated some of the frat members, and it was all fine and good. Most of the guys in feats that I came in contact with, I would truthfully characterize as good guys. Of course I wasn't there behind the scenes, and I heard about the regular frat group emails which sounded...shallow and disrespectful, at best. But, point being: my friends and I were not any "safer" and were just as likely to get dangerously drunk at offcampus block parties or apartment gatherings or even bars. However, we were girls...the dangers are just different. I don't mean to stereotype but I don't think you could find many girls who would - upon realizing that their friend had had 18+ drinks, fallen down a huge flight of stairs, passed out, vomited, fallen multiple times again, and become entirely unresponsive - not call 911. A fall and a passout = call 911...ALL other details just icing on the cake. I like to think most boys would know this deep down as well...but it's the mass groupthink that's dangerous |
Anonymous
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Are you going to ban all groups, everywhere? Frat parties get the attention, but plenty of this goes on in macho groups -- remember all the military scandals? |
Anonymous
And sports groups! |
Anonymous
The good thing about fraternities is that there is accountability. People know each other by name. When someone gets out of control, others will step in to reign things in precisely because they all know that the entire fraternity could get into trouble if things get too crazy. At apartment parties there is nowhere near that level accountability or familiarity with the other party goers. I always viewed the fraternity parties as much, much safer than the apartment parties. That was my experience as a young female college student. It's been a long time since I attended a frat party so maybe times have changed. If so, that is really very sad because I don't think that doing away with Greek life is going to be safer. I actually |
Anonymous
I don't think it's up to some gay dude in his 50s who has a degree from Columbia to decide what's right for younger men and women. |
Anonymous
| Unfortunately, PP, in the Penn State case for instance this 'accountability' was exactly the problem. No one dared speak up or get help because it meant going against the group. One brother, for instance, was struck himself by other brothers when he tried to convince them this boy needed help. He knew something was wrong (as, surely, did multiple other brothers who tried and were unable to rouse the boy), but this accountability to other members of the frat was too strong that he didn't dare speak up and go against the grain. |
Anonymous
There were girls at this party, too. Or at least I think I read somewhere that girls were at this party. If that's true, how would you explain their failure to call 911 when they saw this guy drinking extremely heavily, falling down a flight of stairs and then falling multiple other times before passing out and becoming unresponsive? |