The Social Class Ladders—Labor, Gentry, and Elite

[Anonymous]

Fascinating. I'm definitely a G3 and fine with that. I come from a family of G3s. I may eventually move to a G4 but will never be an E. I'm married to an E4 who is trying to get to E3.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:You are psycho. All I was doing was sharing my story of where we fit into this, as others were doing.... Fact is we are already G, my friend. We're already hanging out with you. We're fitting in. No one thinks his life was sad....... huh? He wasn't Underclass.....

What you're saying is no one can truly move between L and G. That's false. Read the article lady, there is a lot of movement between L and G. Get used to it.

Not backing down here because you're the type of person who should be ashamed of themselves. Imagine saying what you're saying publicly. Snot.

There's movement between it, sure. But the people who were born into G look down on it. Obviously that bothers you- too bad. The truth is the truth.

I'm sure some people do, though certainly not all. Or perhaps if this schema is accurate it is (a) Gs with no connection to extended portions of their family containing Ls, (b) Gs who have a desire to move to the E scale of values or (c) Gs lacking in empathy and human connection.

Or perhaps this schema is an abstracted simplification and doesn't adequately capture the full range of experience. Regardless, the snobbery reflected in the PP's post reflects poorly on them rather than on the poster they were addressing.

Many G's have no family members in the L section. This is not an issue for them

PP. No extended family or close friends? This seems so strange to me - even going to hyper-elite schools you interact with folks who come from these backgrounds. If you can't learn to see and respect them, that is your failing, not theirs.

Although perhaps it's just my odd perspective. Classic American mutt that's the protect of family across the spectrum, so don't exactly fit in anywhere, though the intellectual and feminist values described as Gentry here certainly fit best.

Of course you interact with some- and you might even, in some cases, become friends with them. And your view of that friendship will always be colored by your awareness of their background.

Family members? No. And the friends I have who do have family members like that- think of them as an oddity and look down on them.

PP again. I find what you wrote incredibly depressing. Do you truly think most people think like this? Or perhaps I am wrong and most people do, in which case I choose to keep the rose colored glasses on because that view of the world is stark and ugly. We can be better than that.

Oof. I don't mean to shatter your illusions of the world. Perhaps your friends think differently about your background. I am just speaking on my personal experience and, yes, the other "born into it" friends that I know. Perhaps this is why these discussions are important- I think there are many things that are going on that people don't want to address and would rather not hear. As the saying goes, the truth, quite literally, hurts.

I am the schema PP, not the L-->G husband PP. I don't know what my friends think of my background - it's not hyper elite, but highly privileged. I suppose I just prefer to see and expect the best in people, and to operate under an assumption that accepting the world as it is (which I admit I struggle with) doesn't mean that we have to accept that as the way it should be.

Isn't that just a common believe most people have? If the class system in America is what you want to dedicate your life to changing, have at it and good luck. I'm just explaining the way things are. You mentioned yourself being a "mutt"- so I was just saying what I/people I know would think of that. In the context of this thread which is discussing said class system and mobility within the class system. It is what it is!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:G2 here
Dad is E3 and doesn't understand my happiness as a G2
Mom was a teacher not sure where she falls on the scale

Me again. I am also black and I find this whole thing fascinating. I do not fit in with the elite because America, but I didn't grow up working class as my parents have advanced degrees, we owned a large home in a quiet suburb and I was exposed to cultural arts, international travel etc. as my parents were definitely strivers and wanted to push us into a higher class tier. My parents' siblings are L1s -- small business owners who earn a lot of money and have lots of expensive shiny things, but don't really appreciate cultural arts or travel. I'd say my friends tend to be G2s as well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:G2 here
Dad is E3 and doesn't understand my happiness as a G2
Mom was a teacher not sure where she falls on the scale

Me again. I am also black and I find this whole thing fascinating. I do not fit in with the elite because America, but I didn't grow up working class as my parents have advanced degrees, we owned a large home in a quiet suburb and I was exposed to cultural arts, international travel etc. as my parents were definitely strivers and wanted to push us into a higher class tier. My parents' siblings are L1s -- small business owners who earn a lot of money and have lots of expensive shiny things, but don't really appreciate cultural arts or travel. I'd say my friends tend to be G2s as well.

Also I think I meant to say dad is a G3

[Anonymous]

I don't think it's necessary to appreciate art or culture to fit in with G. I take G to just mean the educated intellectuals, which may be in the sciences or the arts, or both.

My friend who is a college professor has art and culture coming out of his ass. I am sure even his toilet paper has a moving back story which he can tell over a bottle of wine and a spread of pâtés.

But me as a well educated engineer, who enjoys going to the parts of the world where they answer "yes" to the question "Do you speak English", I am also in G.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:You are psycho. All I was doing was sharing my story of where we fit into this, as others were doing.... Fact is we are already G, my friend. We're already hanging out with you. We're fitting in. No one thinks his life was sad....... huh? He wasn't Underclass.....

What you're saying is no one can truly move between L and G. That's false. Read the article lady, there is a lot of movement between L and G. Get used to it.

Not backing down here because you're the type of person who should be ashamed of themselves. Imagine saying what you're saying publicly. Snot.

There's movement between it, sure. But the people who were born into G look down on it. Obviously that bothers you- too bad. The truth is the truth.

I'm sure some people do, though certainly not all. Or perhaps if this schema is accurate it is (a) Gs with no connection to extended portions of their family containing Ls, (b) Gs who have a desire to move to the E scale of values or (c) Gs lacking in empathy and human connection.

Or perhaps this schema is an abstracted simplification and doesn't adequately capture the full range of experience. Regardless, the snobbery reflected in the PP's post reflects poorly on them rather than on the poster they were addressing.

Many G's have no family members in the L section. This is not an issue for them

PP. No extended family or close friends? This seems so strange to me - even going to hyper-elite schools you interact with folks who come from these backgrounds. If you can't learn to see and respect them, that is your failing, not theirs.

Although perhaps it's just my odd perspective. Classic American mutt that's the protect of family across the spectrum, so don't exactly fit in anywhere, though the intellectual and feminist values described as Gentry here certainly fit best.

Of course you interact with some- and you might even, in some cases, become friends with them. And your view of that friendship will always be colored by your awareness of their background.

Family members? No. And the friends I have who do have family members like that- think of them as an oddity and look down on them.

PP again. I find what you wrote incredibly depressing. Do you truly think most people think like this? Or perhaps I am wrong and most people do, in which case I choose to keep the rose colored glasses on because that view of the world is stark and ugly. We can be better than that.

Oof. I don't mean to shatter your illusions of the world. Perhaps your friends think differently about your background. I am just speaking on my personal experience and, yes, the other "born into it" friends that I know. Perhaps this is why these discussions are important- I think there are many things that are going on that people don't want to address and would rather not hear. As the saying goes, the truth, quite literally, hurts.

I am the schema PP, not the L-->G husband PP. I don't know what my friends think of my background - it's not hyper elite, but highly privileged. I suppose I just prefer to see and expect the best in people, and to operate under an assumption that accepting the world as it is (which I admit I struggle with) doesn't mean that we have to accept that as the way it should be.

Isn't that just a common believe most people have? If the class system in America is what you want to dedicate your life to changing, have at it and good luck. I'm just explaining the way things are. You mentioned yourself being a "mutt"- so I was just saying what I/people I know would think of that. In the context of this thread which is discussing said class system and mobility within the class system. It is what it is!

So I'm curious, from this discussion - where exactly would you place me and what exactly are you judging? Honestly curious. What are your assumptions? What do you and your friends judge in others from different backgrounds that holds regardless of what you subsequently learn about them as an individual? And are you OK with this aspect of yourself or is it something you identify as true but that you would strive to change?

[Anonymous]

Wow, this is an interesting discussion that hits a nerve. I, too, find the undercurrent in the comments depressing. I understand why the PP with an L-->G husband was put off. I am a combination of L (by birth) and G (by education, profession). Being told that Gs can sniff you out from a mile off, secretly pity you, and don't want their kids marrying your kids is a pretty nasty gut-punch.

If that's playing nice, I wonder what playing nasty looks like. I understand the social class is very powerful, but do you really enjoy feeding it crackers? Don't all the college degrees inspire some cultural flexibility?

And here I thought working hard, going to honors college, getting a graduate degree, and trading in ideas and information was supposed to earn me gentry street cred. No?

Ah, well, that's okay. I will opt for nodding politely and reverting to passive-aggression. I can wait for the right moment, pretties. I can wait. Over here, by the secret stash of Folgers instant coffee, I wait for your mistake. Then your Starbucks will be mine, all mine!

[Anonymous]

This thread has taken a, to me, unexpected direction. I think part of the issue is that it has both gotten personal and taken a bit more of a hostile tone than needed to discuss the issues at hand.

In general, I'm most interested in how people are responding to discussions of transitioning ladders. It's not surprising that this would hit a nerve and someone who is solidly in one ladder would view things differently than someone who has moved from one to the other.

I'm a bit more difficult to pin down, because my parents were well-educated immigrants when they moved here, but I think I am very solidly G2 with the potential (and parental aspirations) to move to G1 or E3/4. I suspect it's a very common tension, especially for children of immigrants. Do you value money more? Or do you value cultural respect and influence in a society where you were never truly accepted for your race but were accepted for your educational and professional attainment? I think my personal sensibilities lean toward G1 (though my ideal in some ways would be the freedom of E2), and my siblings are both much more E3/E4 types. They appreciate education and the arts, but they are very concerned with accumulating wealth in a way that I simply am not. Ironically, though, I may have the highest HHI of my siblings...but I don't enjoy my job and I'm starting to realize it's because it lacks some of the prestige/influence that I want.

For ladder jumpers, I do think there will always be a sense of not fitting in. Even if the jumper doesn't see it, the people who started off on the ladder they jumped to will. I think that's why the G3/G4 and E3/E4 rungs both are described so differently than the 1/2 rungs. IMHO, if you're a ladder jumper it's your kids and grandkids who are likely to fit in. Though Trump is not a great example of much because his celebrity makes him so unusual, in a sense you can think about his father as an L1 who was so successful he was able to leap onto the Elite ladder. Trump's sensibilities are split, because he was old enough to recall this transition. He aspires in some ways to be a well-respected G1, but he is much closer to being an E1 (though he hasn't held the status long enough to be truly accepted as such, and in some ways being POTUS makes him more of an E3). His kids, though, are very obviously E2 with the only odd thing being they seem a bit more obviously interested in making money.

To me these class distinctions aren't perfect and leave some gaps, but from a high level they very much ring true. My MIL was probably solidly G2/G3 growing, and my FIL was much more G3. They are now G2's by any reasonable definition, but their sensibilities actually lean toward G3 or even L1. My SIL and BIL are both well-educated (graduate degrees) but in professions that don't earn much. SIL was talking about how maybe it would be better not to have their kids go to college and instead learn a trade like plumbing. Everything she said made sense logically, but I had a visceral reaction to it that I didn't understand. But now I do. I'm not saying my reaction is right or my reference frame is better. But I know I am solidly gentry based on the unquestioning manner in which I view education.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This thread has taken a, to me, unexpected direction. I think part of the issue is that it has both gotten personal and taken a bit more of a hostile tone than needed to discuss the issues at hand.

In general, I'm most interested in how people are responding to discussions of transitioning ladders. It's not surprising that this would hit a nerve and someone who is solidly in one ladder would view things differently than someone who has moved from one to the other.

I'm a bit more difficult to pin down, because my parents were well-educated immigrants when they moved here, but I think I am very solidly G2 with the potential (and parental aspirations) to move to G1 or E3/4. I suspect it's a very common tension, especially for children of immigrants. Do you value money more? Or do you value cultural respect and influence in a society where you were never truly accepted for your race but were accepted for your educational and professional attainment? I think my personal sensibilities lean toward G1 (though my ideal in some ways would be the freedom of E2), and my siblings are both much more E3/E4 types. They appreciate education and the arts, but they are very concerned with accumulating wealth in a way that I simply am not. Ironically, though, I may have the highest HHI of my siblings...but I don't enjoy my job and I'm starting to realize it's because it lacks some of the prestige/influence that I want.

For ladder jumpers, I do think there will always be a sense of not fitting in. Even if the jumper doesn't see it, the people who started off on the ladder they jumped to will. I think that's why the G3/G4 and E3/E4 rungs both are described so differently than the 1/2 rungs. IMHO, if you're a ladder jumper it's your kids and grandkids who are likely to fit in. Though Trump is not a great example of much because his celebrity makes him so unusual, in a sense you can think about his father as an L1 who was so successful he was able to leap onto the Elite ladder. Trump's sensibilities are split, because he was old enough to recall this transition. He aspires in some ways to be a well-respected G1, but he is much closer to being an E1 (though he hasn't held the status long enough to be truly accepted as such, and in some ways being POTUS makes him more of an E3). His kids, though, are very obviously E2 with the only odd thing being they seem a bit more obviously interested in making money.

To me these class distinctions aren't perfect and leave some gaps, but from a high level they very much ring true. My MIL was probably solidly G2/G3 growing, and my FIL was much more G3. They are now G2's by any reasonable definition, but their sensibilities actually lean toward G3 or even L1. My SIL and BIL are both well-educated (graduate degrees) but in professions that don't earn much. SIL was talking about how maybe it would be better not to have their kids go to college and instead learn a trade like plumbing. Everything she said made sense logically, but I had a visceral reaction to it that I didn't understand. But now I do. I'm not saying my reaction is right or my reference frame is better. But I know I am solidly gentry based on the unquestioning manner in which I view education.

Mutt PP here. Interesting points. I think something I see missing in this discussion is the personal role of drive for success / power / control within whichever value system you align with, I.e. do you feel personally motivated to obtain influence in your sphere. So in the discussion provided it seems to be conflating class as defined by drive with class as defined by values with class as defined by heritage, which I think muddies things (or just oversimplifies things.) My guess is a better model would be multi-dimensional to capture those differences. It is interesting to see the disassociation of class and wealth, at least within the G segment. Interesting thought pieces to be had there for sure.

[Anonymous]

Thanks for posting, OP. Interesting. We're E3 but certainly don't live/spend the way the writer described, but that sense of uncertainty is always there. You don't want to outlive your usefulness -- which is why we've been so conservative with our money.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Fascinating. I'm definitely a G3 and fine with that. I come from a family of G3s. I may eventually move to a G4 but will never be an E. I'm married to an E4 who is trying to get to E3.

Huh? G4 is lower than G3.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You are psycho. All I was doing was sharing my story of where we fit into this, as others were doing.... Fact is we are already G, my friend. We're already hanging out with you. We're fitting in. No one thinks his life was sad....... huh? He wasn't Underclass.....

What you're saying is no one can truly move between L and G. That's false. Read the article lady, there is a lot of movement between L and G. Get used to it.

Not backing down here because you're the type of person who should be ashamed of themselves. Imagine saying what you're saying publicly. Snot.

There's movement between it, sure. But the people who were born into G look down on it. Obviously that bothers you- too bad. The truth is the truth.

I'm sure some people do, though certainly not all. Or perhaps if this schema is accurate it is (a) Gs with no connection to extended portions of their family containing Ls, (b) Gs who have a desire to move to the E scale of values or (c) Gs lacking in empathy and human connection.

Or perhaps this schema is an abstracted simplification and doesn't adequately capture the full range of experience. Regardless, the snobbery reflected in the PP's post reflects poorly on them rather than on the poster they were addressing.

Many G's have no family members in the L section. This is not an issue for them

PP. No extended family or close friends? This seems so strange to me - even going to hyper-elite schools you interact with folks who come from these backgrounds. If you can't learn to see and respect them, that is your failing, not theirs.

Although perhaps it's just my odd perspective. Classic American mutt that's the protect of family across the spectrum, so don't exactly fit in anywhere, though the intellectual and feminist values described as Gentry here certainly fit best.

Of course you interact with some- and you might even, in some cases, become friends with them. And your view of that friendship will always be colored by your awareness of their background.

Family members? No. And the friends I have who do have family members like that- think of them as an oddity and look down on them.

PP again. I find what you wrote incredibly depressing. Do you truly think most people think like this? Or perhaps I am wrong and most people do, in which case I choose to keep the rose colored glasses on because that view of the world is stark and ugly. We can be better than that.

Oof. I don't mean to shatter your illusions of the world. Perhaps your friends think differently about your background. I am just speaking on my personal experience and, yes, the other "born into it" friends that I know. Perhaps this is why these discussions are important- I think there are many things that are going on that people don't want to address and would rather not hear. As the saying goes, the truth, quite literally, hurts.

I am the schema PP, not the L-->G husband PP. I don't know what my friends think of my background - it's not hyper elite, but highly privileged. I suppose I just prefer to see and expect the best in people, and to operate under an assumption that accepting the world as it is (which I admit I struggle with) doesn't mean that we have to accept that as the way it should be.

Isn't that just a common believe most people have? If the class system in America is what you want to dedicate your life to changing, have at it and good luck. I'm just explaining the way things are. You mentioned yourself being a "mutt"- so I was just saying what I/people I know would think of that. In the context of this thread which is discussing said class system and mobility within the class system. It is what it is!

So I'm curious, from this discussion - where exactly would you place me and what exactly are you judging? Honestly curious. What are your assumptions? What do you and your friends judge in others from different backgrounds that holds regardless of what you subsequently learn about them as an individual? And are you OK with this aspect of yourself or is it something you identify as true but that you would strive to change?

I wouldn't strive to change it, no. Absolutely not. I would identify you as having the smudge of L, and that's kind of where it ends. Honestly, I'm not even wanting to deconstruct this to the level you want to- it's truly as simple as I stated and not all that interesting or complex.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Wow, this is an interesting discussion that hits a nerve. I, too, find the undercurrent in the comments depressing. I understand why the PP with an L-->G husband was put off. I am a combination of L (by birth) and G (by education, profession). Being told that Gs can sniff you out from a mile off, secretly pity you, and don't want their kids marrying your kids is a pretty nasty gut-punch.

If that's playing nice, I wonder what playing nasty looks like. I understand the social class is very powerful, but do you really enjoy feeding it crackers? Don't all the college degrees inspire some cultural flexibility?

And here I thought working hard, going to honors college, getting a graduate degree, and trading in ideas and information was supposed to earn me gentry street cred. No?

Well, of course the Gs don't want their kids marrying Ls -- more risk of falling lower down the social ladder, and, if you far enough down the L chain, you start running into people not only not sharing your values but openly disdaining them. My G mom married an L, and, though he never said anything until they were headed towards divorce, I think it broke my grandfather's heart that he'd spent so much time and effort making sure his kids got a college education to have her end up with someone uneducated (that she ended up supporting). I've been called over-educated, had my job mocked because the profession is seen as uppity, told I'm going to hell for not taking my children to church, and I've been criticized for not knowing who particular NASCAR drivers are. Humans are pack animals, and we're more comfortable with people who are like us. I love my in-laws dearly - they are wonderful, caring people - but I am always on guard around them not to come off as too smart and smile and nod rather than attempt to discuss any sort of nuanced political or social issue with them.

The idea that working hard, going to college/grad school, etc. is your entry to a higher social class is a myth and it's why the whole pulling-yourself-up-by-your-bootstraps mentality is so maddening. Very few people make it on sheer grit. Most people have a leg up, a connection, a network, or something that gives them the opportunities to stay at the top. And they see those resources as finite and guard them with their secret club rules.

[Anonymous]

There's a lot of social mobility in this country, at least moving from top to bottom. On my Dad's side, several GG Grandparents were fancy New York E1s -- mansions on 5th ave, country estates, membership in elite clubs and Mrs. Astor's 400, etc -- but I'm now a G2 at best. Same for my wife. Some of my cousins and connections are still E1s, but some have slipped to hybrid G4/L1 status. My Dad still considers himself to be an E, but his financial and living situation is more like an L (which happens when you quit work in your 40s to spend down inherited capital...).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wow, this is an interesting discussion that hits a nerve. I, too, find the undercurrent in the comments depressing. I understand why the PP with an L-->G husband was put off. I am a combination of L (by birth) and G (by education, profession). Being told that Gs can sniff you out from a mile off, secretly pity you, and don't want their kids marrying your kids is a pretty nasty gut-punch.

If that's playing nice, I wonder what playing nasty looks like. I understand the social class is very powerful, but do you really enjoy feeding it crackers? Don't all the college degrees inspire some cultural flexibility?

And here I thought working hard, going to honors college, getting a graduate degree, and trading in ideas and information was supposed to earn me gentry street cred. No?

Well, of course the Gs don't want their kids marrying Ls -- more risk of falling lower down the social ladder, and, if you far enough down the L chain, you start running into people not only not sharing your values but openly disdaining them. My G mom married an L, and, though he never said anything until they were headed towards divorce, I think it broke my grandfather's heart that he'd spent so much time and effort making sure his kids got a college education to have her end up with someone uneducated (that she ended up supporting). I've been called over-educated, had my job mocked because the profession is seen as uppity, told I'm going to hell for not taking my children to church, and I've been criticized for not knowing who particular NASCAR drivers are. Humans are pack animals, and we're more comfortable with people who are like us. I love my in-laws dearly - they are wonderful, caring people - but I am always on guard around them not to come off as too smart and smile and nod rather than attempt to discuss any sort of nuanced political or social issue with them.

The idea that working hard, going to college/grad school, etc. is your entry to a higher social class is a myth and it's why the whole pulling-yourself-up-by-your-bootstraps mentality is so maddening. Very few people make it on sheer grit. Most people have a leg up, a connection, a network, or something that gives them the opportunities to stay at the top. And they see those resources as finite and guard them with their secret club rules.

I moved from G to E simply by virtue of going to an elite college.