Application Middle School

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Starting an application middle school looks a lot like tracking, which is legally suspect.

This is why DCPS doesn't want to do it before 9th grade:

http://usedulaw.com/333-hobson-v-hansen.html

This lawsuit is about tracking using testing, the issue here is an application MS (no testing). Not a good comparison. And it still doesn't answer the question, why is an application HS OK but not an application MS. Why is it acceptable to do at 9th grade and beyond but not 6th, 7th, and 8th? Still no explanation.

All the DC application high schools - OP's model - use tests as part of the admission criteria (either DC CAS or a special one, like SWW).

What criteria would you establish for your application MS? How would you choose who gets to attend or not?

The problem with introducing tracking early is that they erect barriers that students can never get around. The student who get in a track at 6th are going to always be ahead of others who don't. Foreclosing options when a student is only halfway through his/her school career is the issue.

There are well-trodden paths to establishing the criteria, many models from around the country, particularly in the Bos-Wash corridor. Boston has several "exam" middle schools, New York has dozens of "application" middle schools, and MoCo has several "test-in magnet" middle schools." DC certainly wouldn't need to reinvent the wheel on the admissions or test prep front. Boston even offers free middle school exam test prep to all comers. In MoCo, kids who live close to the school are a given a little preferential treatment in admissions, there are set-asides for them, accounting for one quarter of test-in seats. What's problematic in this picture is how DCPS leaders and politicians still see value in shielding low-income kids from competition from affluent peers, which obviously isn't going to help the former in the long-run. The emphasis should be on identifying and nurturing talent from a young age.

I don't agree that a student who does not get into a track at 6th is necessarily always going to be behind. I wasn't on the gifted track in middle school, but got turned onto to a subject in high school by an excellent teacher, matured, belatedly put nose to the grindstone and went to an Ivy.

[Anonymous]

+100.

[Anonymous]

Seems like an impossible political pickle.

Any application/test-in program with admissions geared toward high performing MS students will likely be disproportionately filled with upper-SES white and Asian students, much like Fairfax's AAP program. That's the really ugly reality of where the history or race and class has led our society. I'm sure that will continue to shift over time, but it's what we're stuck with now. No one at DCPS or in the Mayor's office wants a student body that doesn't look like DC in terms of race, maybe in part because they see benefits for students from working in a more diverse student body, and also surely in part because of the political headaches that would come from labeling a bunch of predominantly white and Asian rich kids as the "gifted and talented" of DCPS.

To be blunt, what DCPS really needs is a way to set aside a quota of seats for qualified black and Latino students, but the Republicans on the Supreme Court have blocked that approach to affirmative action. So the only way I can see it happening is if DCPS can somehow massage the process to create an appropriate level of diversity. One option is to adjust the application process with interviews that just happen to create enough subjective assessment that allows DCPS to set aside seats. Another option is to locate the school far away from Wards 3 & 4, so the geographic hurdle discourages enough white and Asian applicants. A third option I can think of would be create one school that exists on 3-4 campuses spread around the city. Each campus would likely attract a different mix of races/ethnicities, and no one campus would look like DC's demographics. But DCPS could treat them as one campus for political optics, and in fact could structure the school in a way that fosters lots of communication and coordination among the campuses. I actually could imagine a program like that working well for everyone and leading to some really meaningful interactions that accomplish the best aims of diversity.

Interesting problem. I think there are some possible solutions, but I seriously doubt Mayor Bowser or many other politicians in DC have the guts to try them.

[Anonymous]

Saw this article today which talks about how a couple school districts are trying to increase opportunity, make progress on desegregation and improve quality all at the same time.

Seemed related to this thread.

http://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2016/04/when-school-districts-get-deliberate-about-desegregation/479013/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Seems like an impossible political pickle.

Any application/test-in program with admissions geared toward high performing MS students will likely be disproportionately filled with upper-SES white and Asian students, much like Fairfax's AAP program. That's the really ugly reality of where the history or race and class has led our society. I'm sure that will continue to shift over time, but it's what we're stuck with now. No one at DCPS or in the Mayor's office wants a student body that doesn't look like DC in terms of race, maybe in part because they see benefits for students from working in a more diverse student body, and also surely in part because of the political headaches that would come from labeling a bunch of predominantly white and Asian rich kids as the "gifted and talented" of DCPS.

To be blunt, what DCPS really needs is a way to set aside a quota of seats for qualified black and Latino students, but the Republicans on the Supreme Court have blocked that approach to affirmative action. So the only way I can see it happening is if DCPS can somehow massage the process to create an appropriate level of diversity. One option is to adjust the application process with interviews that just happen to create enough subjective assessment that allows DCPS to set aside seats. Another option is to locate the school far away from Wards 3 & 4, so the geographic hurdle discourages enough white and Asian applicants. A third option I can think of would be create one school that exists on 3-4 campuses spread around the city. Each campus would likely attract a different mix of races/ethnicities, and no one campus would look like DC's demographics. But DCPS could treat them as one campus for political optics, and in fact could structure the school in a way that fosters lots of communication and coordination among the campuses. I actually could imagine a program like that working well for everyone and leading to some really meaningful interactions that accomplish the best aims of diversity.

Interesting problem. I think there are some possible solutions, but I seriously doubt Mayor Bowser or many other politicians in DC have the guts to try them.

They not only lack the guts, they lack the vision and ambition for their city. The tyranny of low expectations is far better disguised in DCPS than it was a decade ago, but it's still there in a big way. I hear what you're saying, and like the 3-4 campuses idea, but don't see set asides, quotas or interviews as being optimal. Some school districts actually add points on entrance exams for FARMs applicants, regardless of race. But there's a catch, students accepting the points must complete course work, usually free summer school, before enrolling in an effort to get them up to scratch. This approach helps cut down on the resentment and resistance straight up affirmative action programs tend to generate. When Boston Latin added an interview in the mid 80s, applicant quality dipped markedly and many whites who were counting on the school to stay in the city gave up and decamped to the burbs. The school got rid of the interview 15 years ago, and Asians stormed in, including many FARMs Asians, putting BL back on top.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Seems like an impossible political pickle.

Any application/test-in program with admissions geared toward high performing MS students will likely be disproportionately filled with upper-SES white and Asian students, much like Fairfax's AAP program. That's the really ugly reality of where the history or race and class has led our society. I'm sure that will continue to shift over time, but it's what we're stuck with now. No one at DCPS or in the Mayor's office wants a student body that doesn't look like DC in terms of race, maybe in part because they see benefits for students from working in a more diverse student body, and also surely in part because of the political headaches that would come from labeling a bunch of predominantly white and Asian rich kids as the "gifted and talented" of DCPS.

To be blunt, what DCPS really needs is a way to set aside a quota of seats for qualified black and Latino students, but the Republicans on the Supreme Court have blocked that approach to affirmative action. So the only way I can see it happening is if DCPS can somehow massage the process to create an appropriate level of diversity. One option is to adjust the application process with interviews that just happen to create enough subjective assessment that allows DCPS to set aside seats. Another option is to locate the school far away from Wards 3 & 4, so the geographic hurdle discourages enough white and Asian applicants. A third option I can think of would be create one school that exists on 3-4 campuses spread around the city. Each campus would likely attract a different mix of races/ethnicities, and no one campus would look like DC's demographics. But DCPS could treat them as one campus for political optics, and in fact could structure the school in a way that fosters lots of communication and coordination among the campuses. I actually could imagine a program like that working well for everyone and leading to some really meaningful interactions that accomplish the best aims of diversity.

Interesting problem. I think there are some possible solutions, but I seriously doubt Mayor Bowser or many other politicians in DC have the guts to try them.

They not only lack the guts, they lack the vision and ambition for their city. The tyranny of low expectations is far better disguised in DCPS than it was a decade ago, but it's still there in a big way. I hear what you're saying, and like the 3-4 campuses idea, but don't see set asides, quotas or interviews as being optimal. Some school districts actually add points on entrance exams for FARMs applicants, regardless of race. But there's a catch, students accepting the points must complete course work, usually free summer school, before enrolling in an effort to get them up to scratch. This approach helps cut down on the resentment and resistance straight up affirmative action programs tend to generate. When Boston Latin added an interview in the mid 80s, applicant quality dipped markedly and many whites who were counting on the school to stay in the city gave up and decamped to the burbs. The school got rid of the interview 15 years ago, and Asians stormed in, including many FARMs Asians, putting BL back on top.

Schools could do set asides/quotas for low income - in DC that would virtually guarantee schools' ability to control/set racial percentages without running afoul of Supreme Court precedent.

[Anonymous]

Is there any peer reviewed research that suggests that "gifted programs" or test in programs are really helpful to kids from homes where both parents are college educated? I see NYC and Fairfax County devoting significant resources to these programs. Are the graduates of these programs really better off in the long run? Are they producing a bunch of Jonas Salks?

Fairfax County has managed to create a mini version of the Asian educational system: test and weed. Is the level of achievement higher than it would otherwise be for these mostly upper middle income kids, most of whom are not profoundly gifted and would probably do well in a regular classroom setting?

The research of Carol Dweck at Stanford actually suggests that the opposite is true. Labeling kids gifted discourages them from taking intellectual risks. Additionally, you can increase IQ, lateral thinking, memory etc. by learning challenging things, like new languages and musical instruments.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Is there any peer reviewed research that suggests that "gifted programs" or test in programs are really helpful to kids from homes where both parents are college educated? I see NYC and Fairfax County devoting significant resources to these programs. Are the graduates of these programs really better off in the long run? Are they producing a bunch of Jonas Salks?

Fairfax County has managed to create a mini version of the Asian educational system: test and weed. Is the level of achievement higher than it would otherwise be for these mostly upper middle income kids, most of whom are not profoundly gifted and would probably do well in a regular classroom setting?

The research of Carol Dweck at Stanford actually suggests that the opposite is true. Labeling kids gifted discourages them from taking intellectual risks. Additionally, you can increase IQ, lateral thinking, memory etc. by learning challenging things, like new languages and musical instruments.

The Secretary of Education agrees with the Stanford research and says kids in diverse schools do better overall- http://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2016/...te-about-desegregation/479013/

[Anonymous]

I can see the advantages of a rigorous application school, but I'd rather see every schools capable of effectively serving students of any ability. DC wants it both ways -- no accelerated schools but offer little to meet needs of advanced learners in many MS and up.

I don't want or need my child segregated on any level but I do need my child to be sufficiently challenged. If DCPS can't figure out a way to effectively serve advanced learners it leaves me little choice but to pursue other options.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I can see the advantages of a rigorous application school, but I'd rather see every schools capable of effectively serving students of any ability. DC wants it both ways -- no accelerated schools but offer little to meet needs of advanced learners in many MS and up.

I don't want or need my child segregated on any level but I do need my child to be sufficiently challenged. If DCPS can't figure out a way to effectively serve advanced learners it leaves me little choice but to pursue other options.

+1000

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is there any peer reviewed research that suggests that "gifted programs" or test in programs are really helpful to kids from homes where both parents are college educated? I see NYC and Fairfax County devoting significant resources to these programs. Are the graduates of these programs really better off in the long run? Are they producing a bunch of Jonas Salks?

Fairfax County has managed to create a mini version of the Asian educational system: test and weed. Is the level of achievement higher than it would otherwise be for these mostly upper middle income kids, most of whom are not profoundly gifted and would probably do well in a regular classroom setting?

The research of Carol Dweck at Stanford actually suggests that the opposite is true. Labeling kids gifted discourages them from taking intellectual risks. Additionally, you can increase IQ, lateral thinking, memory etc. by learning challenging things, like new languages and musical instruments.

The Secretary of Education agrees with the Stanford research and says kids in diverse schools do better overall- http://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2016/...te-about-desegregation/479013/

Just to be clear, that Atlantic article is supporting diversity at schools, but it's not at all saying what the first PP suggested about there not being any overall benefit to G&T programs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I can see the advantages of a rigorous application school, but I'd rather see every schools capable of effectively serving students of any ability. DC wants it both ways -- no accelerated schools but offer little to meet needs of advanced learners in many MS and up.

I don't want or need my child segregated on any level but I do need my child to be sufficiently challenged. If DCPS can't figure out a way to effectively serve advanced learners it leaves me little choice but to pursue other options.

I don't have children in DCPS MS or HS, so I'm wondering about the underlined part. Is it really true that DCPS doesn't do anything to support advanced learners? I'd heard before that DCPS has honors/advanced classes within each school, which suggests that the more advanced students will get grouped in those classes. Indeed, I'd heard that at schools like Wilson, there's almost a school-within-a-school, because the relatively small subset of honors-class kids effectively takes almost all of their classes together. Is that accurate? Or did I hear wrong?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can see the advantages of a rigorous application school, but I'd rather see every schools capable of effectively serving students of any ability. DC wants it both ways -- no accelerated schools but offer little to meet needs of advanced learners in many MS and up.

I don't want or need my child segregated on any level but I do need my child to be sufficiently challenged. If DCPS can't figure out a way to effectively serve advanced learners it leaves me little choice but to pursue other options.

I don't have children in DCPS MS or HS, so I'm wondering about the underlined part. Is it really true that DCPS doesn't do anything to support advanced learners? I'd heard before that DCPS has honors/advanced classes within each school, which suggests that the more advanced students will get grouped in those classes. Indeed, I'd heard that at schools like Wilson, there's almost a school-within-a-school, because the relatively small subset of honors-class kids effectively takes almost all of their classes together. Is that accurate? Or did I hear wrong?

You are right for high schools. But not middle school.

There are some classes labelled honored at SH that they aren't really advanced but grade level classes. There are some advanced foreign language and math classes at Deal, and at Hardy there are advanced math classes and some classes labeled honors.

Elsewhere it's the same as at elementary school - differentiation within the same class.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can see the advantages of a rigorous application school, but I'd rather see every schools capable of effectively serving students of any ability. DC wants it both ways -- no accelerated schools but offer little to meet needs of advanced learners in many MS and up.

I don't want or need my child segregated on any level but I do need my child to be sufficiently challenged. If DCPS can't figure out a way to effectively serve advanced learners it leaves me little choice but to pursue other options.

I don't have children in DCPS MS or HS, so I'm wondering about the underlined part. Is it really true that DCPS doesn't do anything to support advanced learners? I'd heard before that DCPS has honors/advanced classes within each school, which suggests that the more advanced students will get grouped in those classes. Indeed, I'd heard that at schools like Wilson, there's almost a school-within-a-school, because the relatively small subset of honors-class kids effectively takes almost all of their classes together. Is that accurate? Or did I hear wrong?

It's not completely true. Some schools have good options, while others don't.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can see the advantages of a rigorous application school, but I'd rather see every schools capable of effectively serving students of any ability. DC wants it both ways -- no accelerated schools but offer little to meet needs of advanced learners in many MS and up.

I don't want or need my child segregated on any level but I do need my child to be sufficiently challenged. If DCPS can't figure out a way to effectively serve advanced learners it leaves me little choice but to pursue other options.

I don't have children in DCPS MS or HS, so I'm wondering about the underlined part. Is it really true that DCPS doesn't do anything to support advanced learners? I'd heard before that DCPS has honors/advanced classes within each school, which suggests that the more advanced students will get grouped in those classes. Indeed, I'd heard that at schools like Wilson, there's almost a school-within-a-school, because the relatively small subset of honors-class kids effectively takes almost all of their classes together. Is that accurate? Or did I hear wrong?

You are right for high schools. But not middle school.

There are some classes labelled honored at SH that they aren't really advanced but grade level classes. There are some advanced foreign language and math classes at Deal, and at Hardy there are advanced math classes and some classes labeled honors.

Elsewhere it's the same as at elementary school - differentiation within the same class.

Kaya was "outraged" that some HS offered only a few AP classes while certain HSs offer many AP options. She vowed to do something about this. Then why is it ok for some MSs (2 identified by PP) to offer advanced classes and everyone else is left to rot? I haven't seen a single thing that explains why an application MS is not appropriate when there are application HS. If one of Bowser's campaign platforms was Alice Deal for all, why aren't they looking into these issues? People need to put Bowser to task on this. Give kids advanced options in all MSs, not just a select few OR have some application MS.