Why so much hate with EOTP vs WOTP parents

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I moved to NW DC from NYC. I thought I was suffocating. It felt very, very suburban. I ended up moving to Capitol Hill where I was much happier.

Points for NWDC- definitely better schools and a better high school feeder plan. Like dramatically better middle/high schools.

Points against- you're either driving forever or on the train forever if you work for most federal agencies. The subway here blows. Almost everything is driving distance in NW DC. If you're a minority you might feel uncomfortable (I did). No one is very friendly. I made lots of friends (I'm a friendly person), but it's not like NYC where you introduce yourself to other parents at the park.

Points For EOTP (really Capitol Hill)- more diverse, closer to downtown, nicer, friendlier Neighborhoods, much more walkable. You are close to the Smithsonian. Lots more active moms/dads groups like moms on the hill (MOTH).

Points against- terrible schools in some areas, bad middle/high schools throughout

There is crime all over DC. This was a shock to me coming from NYC because crime wasn't so much a part of life as it is here. People in Ward 3 claim it's less of an issue, but that's a lie. The metro SUCKS. Driving here sucks too.

Huh? I live in NWDC and take a metro 5 stops to my federal job. I walk to tons of stuff. Maybe not the Smithsonian, but I can walk to the zoo, hike Rock Creek, etc. not to mention a movie theater, a library, restaurants and bars.

RE friendliness, we've met lots of friends in our neighborhood. Meanwhile, I have friends who live on the Hill for years who know like 3 people on their block.

Please let's not generalize and give the OP false information.

Check out those nice 18 minute metro delays today on the redline. And yes there are some old Lady restaurants and bars. Listen if I was OP I would move to NW DC just for deal since she has a 5th grader. But NW DC sucks.

And it's attitudes like yours that the OP is talking about. See how I talked about the positives of NW DC without putting down other neighborhoods?

And your so right, the blue line NEVER has any problems.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
And from what I've read of the history of the park it was deliberately constructed as a racial barrier.

That's simply incorrect. Rock Creek Park was established by Congress in 1890. At that point almost nothing in DC was built north of Florida Avenue (formerly Boundary Street because it


was the border of the "Washington City" limits), because of the geographic difficulties posed by the hills north of Florida. There was nobody to segregate other than a few country homes.

The reality is that the black population in DC was relatively large up through 1940/50, but still never more than 30% of the city population. There were very specific neighborhoods that were legally segregated, and it was very difficult for black residents to move outside of them- Shaw, Logan Circle, Bloomingdale, Park View, Pleasant Plains, Truxton Circle, Georgetown, north Dupont, and a few others. Good map here:

http://dclibrary.org/node/47157

Those neighborhoods were very dense, much like the segregated parts of other cities. Once legal segregation ended, the black population started to spread out, and at the same time, the boom of the postwar suburbs attracted whites from neighborhoods like Columbia Heights, Petworth, Anacostia (yes, historic Anacostia was 100% white under segregation). So from 1950 to 1970 you have this massive shift as many of these EOTP neighborhoods flip very quickly from white to black. And the city population plummeted as whites moved out, and thus became "Chocolate City". But the geographic barrier of Rock Creek Park definitely played a part in whites staying there in larger numbers, although they definitely opted out of DCPS more and more up until the mid/late-90s. But by that point Rock Creek Park wasn't a legal barrier, just a psychological one.

Then, of course, you had the migration of many middle class blacks outside of the city that started en masse in the late 70s/early 80s. That contributed even more to the population decline and exodus from DCPS.

You write like segregation ended in 1950. Legally enforced segregation endured in DC into the 1970's. IIRC, the DC Federation of Citizens Associations still had a requirement in its bylaws until 1972 that member organizations be limited to whites only. Mortgage redlining persisted through the 1990's. The school desegregation court cases took place in the late 60's and early 70's.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's a Sunday and there is track work...what does that have to do with anything? Do you even use metro pp?

Not anymore! I walk to work!! No more metro delays/cancellations for me!! And I can also walk to bars and restaurants.

But as I said before, considering the ages of OP's kids, I would live in NW DC because deal and Wilson are the best DC has to offer right now.

OP has already said all the neighborhoods she is considering feed to Deal. It's nice to read entire thread.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:In this day in age of Uber the metro is not a huge factor.

When Mr. or Ms. Capitol Hill's children are ready for middle school lets see how appealing your neighborhood will be.

I'm sure they'll be great! And we have charters too. Rather that than live in NWDC.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In this day in age of Uber the metro is not a huge factor.

When Mr. or Ms. Capitol Hill's children are ready for middle school lets see how appealing your neighborhood will be.

I'm sure they'll be great! And we have charters too. Rather that than live in NWDC.

Not hill or WOTP but charters are getting more hard to get into each year. Only real options are Latin and Basis and Latin is a good hike. Both are hard to get into.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

You write like segregation ended in 1950. Legally enforced segregation endured in DC into the 1970's. IIRC, the DC Federation of Citizens Associations still had a requirement in its bylaws until 1972 that member organizations be limited to whites only. Mortgage redlining persisted through the 1990's. The school desegregation court cases took place in the late 60's and early 70's.

Well, the major legal forms of segregation were outlawed in 1948 (racial covenants) and 1954 (schools in Brown v. Board of Education), so that was my general point. These two decisions were integral in preventing whites from using the legal system to enforce segregation, although of course it took a long time for them to be enacted. However, as you said, there were other forms of economic and cultural segregation that continued, some of them to this day. The form and culture of the city from 80 years ago helps to shape the form and culture to this day.

Some historical artifacts I have seen online (but can't find links right now) are amazing when you look at the city today. One was a census page for the address at 12th and S, NW in 1940. It was a small general store in the segregated black part of the city. 10 people lived in the upstairs apartment. That's how the city population was 200,000 more people than today, even though large parts of the city hadn't been developed yet. The other one was a picture of the 1960 graduating class of Anacostia High School. There were about 5 black students out of maybe 300 people.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In this day in age of Uber the metro is not a huge factor.

When Mr. or Ms. Capitol Hill's children are ready for middle school lets see how appealing your neighborhood will be.

I'm sure they'll be great! And we have charters too. Rather that than live in NWDC.

Not hill or WOTP but charters are getting more hard to get into each year. Only real options are Latin and Basis and Latin is a good hike. Both are hard to get into.

Don't forget DCI, creative minds, inspired teaching, and up and coming DCPS middle schools like Stuart-Hobson

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In this day in age of Uber the metro is not a huge factor.

When Mr. or Ms. Capitol Hill's children are ready for middle school lets see how appealing your neighborhood will be.

I'm sure they'll be great! And we have charters too. Rather that than live in NWDC.

Not hill or WOTP but charters are getting more hard to get into each year. Only real options are Latin and Basis and Latin is a good hike. Both are hard to get into.

Don't forget DCI, creative minds, inspired teaching, and up and coming DCPS middle schools like Stuart-Hobson

I didn't forget those schools. I still stand by my statement. I am at one of the charters you just mentioned and would not put their middle schools against Latin, Basis or Deal. Also you still have to figure out high school and again, not guaranteed access. "Up and coming" for SH is a big stretch.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:People are always saying the Hill is so diverse but where are the Asians? I hardly see any.

i knowwww I'm asian and thinking of moving out even though both kids are in good schools b/c i can't stand the lack of diversity, there are barely any asians (NO asian foo store- oh Lotte how i miss you) and barely any hispanic families either. of course my family thinks we are crazy spending so much $ to live in the city when it the schools are so bad (the extracurriculars, no mathnasium, odyssey of the mind) and live in MOCO or Fairfax

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
And from what I've read of the history of the park it was deliberately constructed as a racial barrier.

That's simply incorrect. Rock Creek Park was established by Congress in 1890. At that point almost nothing in DC was built north of Florida Avenue (formerly Boundary Street because it was the border of the "Washington City" limits), because of the geographic difficulties posed by the hills north of Florida. There was nobody to segregate other than a few country homes.

The reality is that the black population in DC was relatively large up through 1940/50, but still never more than 30% of the city population. There were very specific neighborhoods that were legally segregated, and it was very difficult for black residents to move outside of them- Shaw, Logan Circle, Bloomingdale, Park View, Pleasant Plains, Truxton Circle, Georgetown, north Dupont, and a few others. Good map here:

http://dclibrary.org/node/47157

Those neighborhoods were very dense, much like the segregated parts of other cities. Once legal segregation ended, the black population started to spread out, and at the same time, the boom of the postwar suburbs attracted whites from neighborhoods like Columbia Heights, Petworth, Anacostia (yes, historic Anacostia was 100% white under segregation). So from 1950 to 1970 you have this massive shift as many of these EOTP neighborhoods flip very quickly from white to black. And the city population plummeted as whites moved out, and thus became "Chocolate City". But the geographic barrier of Rock Creek Park definitely played a part in whites staying there in larger numbers, although they definitely opted out of DCPS more and more up until the mid/late-90s. But by that point Rock Creek Park wasn't a legal barrier, just a psychological one.

Then, of course, you had the migration of many middle class blacks outside of the city that started en masse in the late 70s/early 80s. That contributed even more to the population decline and exodus from DCPS.

This may be the single most factually accurate post on the history of D.C. that I've ever read on DCUM.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

You write like segregation ended in 1950. Legally enforced segregation endured in DC into the 1970's. IIRC, the DC Federation of Citizens Associations still had a requirement in its bylaws until 1972 that member organizations be limited to whites only. Mortgage redlining persisted through the 1990's. The school desegregation court cases took place in the late 60's and early 70's.

Well, the major legal forms of segregation were outlawed in 1948 (racial covenants) and 1954 (schools in Brown v. Board of Education), so that was my general point. These two decisions were integral in preventing whites from using the legal system to enforce segregation, although of course it took a long time for them to be enacted. However, as you said, there were other forms of economic and cultural segregation that continued, some of them to this day. The form and culture of the city from 80 years ago helps to shape the form and culture to this day.

Some historical artifacts I have seen online (but can't find links right now) are amazing when you look at the city today. One was a census page for the address at 12th and S, NW in 1940. It was a small general store in the segregated black part of the city. 10 people lived in the upstairs apartment. That's how the city population was 200,000 more people than today, even though large parts of the city hadn't been developed yet. The other one was a picture of the 1960 graduating class of Anacostia High School. There were about 5 black students out of maybe 300 people.

An older African-American lady at our church told us about her experience growing up in Anacostia during segregation. Her immediate neighbor and best childhood friend was a Japanese girl whose father worked at the embassy. They played together every day but went to different schools. The Japanese girl got to go to the white school, which conveniently was not overcrowded and got all of the new textbooks, supplies, etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP here. we are looking in Barnaby Woods, American U area, and Portal Estates (zoned as Shepherd Park). I am saying my options of Lafayette, Shepherd, and Janney. All 3 filter into Deal.

Ignore the naysayers. You are in a "no-lose" situation. Pick the house that you like the best.

[Anonymous]

Welcome to DC! We are just lovely people here, aren't we?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. we are looking in Barnaby Woods, American U area, and Portal Estates (zoned as Shepherd Park). I am saying my options of Lafayette, Shepherd, and Janney. All 3 filter into Deal.

Ignore the naysayers. You are in a "no-lose" situation. Pick the house that you like the best.

+100. Also be prepared for bidding wars on all the houses.

[Anonymous]

http://prologuedc.com/blog/mapping-segregation/ Thanks to whoever posted this link!

This should be required reading on DCUM. It explains half of the disputes we have on this forum.

An excerpt:

The Spread of Petition Covenants

In the wake of the Corrigan v. Buckley decision upholding the enforceability of petition covenants—by the lower court in 1923, the appeals court in 1924, and U.S. Supreme Court in 1926—the use of petition covenants spread rapidly across Washington.

Neighborhood associations organized to write restrictive covenants by petition (and to enforce existing deed covenants), especially on blocks close to where African American families already lived. The petitions bound signers not to sell or rent to African Americans, and sometimes other groups, and were filed with the Recorder of Deeds. Because the petitions were valid for long periods of time—often 21 or 50 years—or even in perpetuity, they also bound future property owners to their terms.

This map of the Mount Pleasant neighborhood in Northwest DC shows the spread of petition covenants in the years just after Corrigan v. Buckley. They kept the neighborhood white well into the 1950s.

Residents of Park Road’s 1800 block attempted to enforce a 1927 covenant as late as 1950. They sued African American physician Robert Deane to prevent him from moving into the house he had purchased at 1841 Park Road NW through a “straw” buyer...

{skip}

The End of Legal Segregation in Washington DC

After the Supreme Court ruled racial covenants unenforceable in 1948, previously restricted blocks opened up to black buyers—some quickly and some more gradually. But the real estate and banking industries continued to enforce segregation, even if the courts did not.

####

This will be handy to note the next time a WOTP VS EOTP discussion pops up. This study focused on Ward 1 area; they didn't even allow Jews WOTP. DC was pretty much ground-zero for this desegregation battle and we still live with the results many years later.