Is the Charleston church shooting making anyone doubt their Faith?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What kind of God would allow THAT?

You sound like a jerk. Never say that to a person who is going thru something terrible

How is that a jerky response?

We can't question horrible acts? Why does God allow children to be raped? Why does God allow people to be swept away in storms? Why does God allow the death of babies? the beating of animals? acts of terrorism in the name of some god or "God?"

Smart people question; blind followers are just that - blind.

It’s called man’s free will. And, sin.

What about those who die painful, early deaths from diseases such as cancer? Man's free will & sin generally don't factor into these deaths so why does a so-called loving God allow this?

For a person who doesn't believe in a higher power you sure reserve a lot of bitterness toward the gods of others. And why aren't you railing against all gods, why just the one?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:the blame game
-image removed-

Except, I am not the one claiming to be God. I am not the one claiming to be omnipotent omnipresent omniscient omnibenevolent. I am not the one claiming to have created this world. I didn't create create the birds, the clouds and the earthquakes and Alzheimer's. I don't claim to know the truth, the path to eternal life, and the power to end this world.

He who makes the claim carries the burden. That's how it works.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

What about those who die painful, early deaths from diseases such as cancer? Man's free will & sin generally don't factor into these deaths so why does a so-called loving God allow this?

For a person who doesn't believe in a higher power you sure reserve a lot of bitterness toward the gods of others. And why aren't you railing against all gods, why just the one?

Not the PP but I do argue against any and all Gods. This happens to be a christian dominated forum, so it is typically the Christian God I am arguing against. But the arguments work in the context of any religion. So it's not that we are railing against your God, but that *you* think your God is the one and only, so therefore we must be arguing against him and only him.

[Anonymous]

Good grief, the "problem" of God permitting evil was answered CENTURIES ago.

Those who whine "why does God permit this?" are only advertising their theological ignorance.

Christianity does not postulate that the world is a good place.

Christianity does not claim that God is presently in control of events; when Satan offered Jesus all the kingdoms of the world, Jesus rejected the offer but did not claim that it was spurious.

Jesus Christ would not have taught us to pray that God's Will be done here on Earth as it is in Heaven, unless God's Will was not being done here on Earth.

There are numerous instances in the Old Testament where Israel and others go against God's Will. Therefore, it is possible for humans to act in opposition to God, without him dictating their actions. Furthermore, the very notion of Lucifer's Fall indicates strongly that God is not in control of all things.

Jesus Christ says that Satan has no hold on him, presumably because he has not sinned. Therefore, Satan does have a hold on everyone who has sinned, namely, the rest of us on the planet.

It is thus a massive error to blame God for any specific evil act, or for evil in general.

Blame Satan, and blame his evil human minions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Good grief, the "problem" of God permitting evil was answered CENTURIES ago.

Those who whine "why does God permit this?" are only advertising their theological ignorance.

Christianity does not postulate that the world is a good place.

Christianity does not claim that God is presently in control of events; when Satan offered Jesus all the kingdoms of the world, Jesus rejected the offer but did not claim that it was spurious.

Jesus Christ would not have taught us to pray that God's Will be done here on Earth as it is in Heaven, unless God's Will was not being done here on Earth.

There are numerous instances in the Old Testament where Israel and others go against God's Will. Therefore, it is possible for humans to act in opposition to God, without him dictating their actions. Furthermore, the very notion of Lucifer's Fall indicates strongly that God is not in control of all things.

Jesus Christ says that Satan has no hold on him, presumably because he has not sinned. Therefore, Satan does have a hold on everyone who has sinned, namely, the rest of us on the planet.

It is thus a massive error to blame God for any specific evil act, or for evil in general.

Blame Satan, and blame his evil human minions.

Yes, yes, the answer has been given. But the answer is not satisfactory. That's why we continue to question it. No one questions why the sun rises in the east anymore because that question has been satisfactorily answered. The problem of evil is far from settled. Christian apologists have tried to work around the definition of omnibenevolence - what it means, how it works, and etc. The debate rages on because language and religion are both man made, and as we are the maker of these things, we are in control of them and are able to change them at will to suit our purpose.

A God who created our world should be able to do the same. Yet there is no evidence that he does.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Good grief, the "problem" of God permitting evil was answered CENTURIES ago.

Those who whine "why does God permit this?" are only advertising their theological ignorance.

Christianity does not postulate that the world is a good place.

Christianity does not claim that God is presently in control of events; when Satan offered Jesus all the kingdoms of the world, Jesus rejected the offer but did not claim that it was spurious.

Jesus Christ would not have taught us to pray that God's Will be done here on Earth as it is in Heaven, unless God's Will was not being done here on Earth.

There are numerous instances in the Old Testament where Israel and others go against God's Will. Therefore, it is possible for humans to act in opposition to God, without him dictating their actions. Furthermore, the very notion of Lucifer's Fall indicates strongly that God is not in control of all things.

Jesus Christ says that Satan has no hold on him, presumably because he has not sinned. Therefore, Satan does have a hold on everyone who has sinned, namely, the rest of us on the planet.

It is thus a massive error to blame God for any specific evil act, or for evil in general.

Blame Satan, and blame his evil human minions.

Yes, yes, the answer has been given. But the answer is not satisfactory. That's why we continue to question it. No one questions why the sun rises in the east anymore because that question has been satisfactorily answered. The problem of evil is far from settled. Christian apologists have tried to work around the definition of omnibenevolence - what it means, how it works, and etc. The debate rages on because language and religion are both man made, and as we are the maker of these things, we are in control of them and are able to change them at will to suit our purpose.

A God who created our world should be able to do the same. Yet there is no evidence that he does.

Who are you to decide what god should be able to do Only God can decide that and He has clearly shown that He cannot or does not control evil. He is responsible for the good things. Just be grateful for that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"Expressing their feelings" is great, but why denigrate people? Why say it's" self-deception" and belief in "magic?" In other words 1. Why criticize people? 2. How does that affect you? If you believe they are self-deceived and believe in crazy, old myths, so what? Move along. Again, the answer seems to be that no, the shootings in Charleston have not diminished people's faith. Does that require debate?

Is it denigrating to disagree when the subject is belief in God? Is is criticism or is it description? "Self deception" and "belief in magic" are terms often used when describing religion -- just as "comfort" and "faith" are often used.

I think the killings have diminished some people's faith - just not the people responding here. Why would that not be the case? Not everyone reacts the same way to everything. When 9 innocent people in a church are killed by a crazed gunman, not everyone concludes that God was showing his love and great mercy for those people in some way we just don't understand right now. Certainly some people are asking "How could god let such a horrible thing happen? and not coming up with an answer that elicits continued faith in him. Are those people to be muzzled? to be told they're wrong. God is not known for making his motives clear. People have been trying to figure him out for centuries.

God doesn't let things happen. He gave us free will. Would you rather be controlled every single day, in every little thing you do?

Isn't God responsible for the outpouring of love and compassion since the shooting? Didn't he give Dylann Roof free will to shoot those people? and gave those people the free will to decide to attend bible study that night - knowing full well what would happen to them there?

And your point is?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What kind of God would allow THAT?

You sound like a jerk. Never say that to a person who is going thru something terrible

How is that a jerky response?

We can't question horrible acts? Why does God allow children to be raped? Why does God allow people to be swept away in storms? Why does God allow the death of babies? the beating of animals? acts of terrorism in the name of some god or "God?"

Smart people question; blind followers are just that - blind.

It’s called man’s free will. And, sin.

What about those who die painful, early deaths from diseases such as cancer? Man's free will & sin generally don't factor into these deaths so why does a so-called loving God allow this?

For a person who doesn't believe in a higher power you sure reserve a lot of bitterness toward the gods of others. And why aren't you railing against all gods, why just the one?

Um, I'm the PP directly above you & that was my first post.I'm not expressing any bitterness toward a particular God, just asking a question.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

What about those who die painful, early deaths from diseases such as cancer? Man's free will & sin generally don't factor into these deaths so why does a so-called loving God allow this?

For a person who doesn't believe in a higher power you sure reserve a lot of bitterness toward the gods of others. And why aren't you railing against all gods, why just the one?

Not the PP but I do argue against any and all Gods. This happens to be a christian dominated forum, so it is typically the Christian God I am arguing against. But the arguments work in the context of any religion. So it's not that we are railing against your God, but that *you* think your God is the one and only, so therefore we must be arguing against him and only him.

So you're really waiting to react to the believers who post here. If you're really against all organized religion then why aren't you vocal about the hindu gods or even the nature-based spirits in paganism? I would think you could riff for days on a god that looks like an elephant or one that is found in a rock.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What kind of God would allow THAT?

You sound like a jerk. Never say that to a person who is going thru something terrible

How is that a jerky response?

We can't question horrible acts? Why does God allow children to be raped? Why does God allow people to be swept away in storms? Why does God allow the death of babies? the beating of animals? acts of terrorism in the name of some god or "God?"

Smart people question; blind followers are just that - blind.

It’s called man’s free will. And, sin.

What about those who die painful, early deaths from diseases such as cancer? Man's free will & sin generally don't factor into these deaths so why does a so-called loving God allow this?

For a person who doesn't believe in a higher power you sure reserve a lot of bitterness toward the gods of others. And why aren't you railing against all gods, why just the one?

Um, I'm the PP directly above you & that was my first post.I'm not expressing any bitterness toward a particular God, just asking a question.

This has been answered on this forum by believers of different faiths. Why doesn't God save us all from suffering? Because life isn't without suffering. Disease happens. Cancer happens.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What kind of God would allow THAT?

You sound like a jerk. Never say that to a person who is going thru something terrible

How is that a jerky response?

We can't question horrible acts? Why does God allow children to be raped? Why does God allow people to be swept away in storms? Why does God allow the death of babies? the beating of animals? acts of terrorism in the name of some god or "God?"

Smart people question; blind followers are just that - blind.

It’s called man’s free will. And, sin.

What about those who die painful, early deaths from diseases such as cancer? Man's free will & sin generally don't factor into these deaths so why does a so-called loving God allow this?

For a person who doesn't believe in a higher power you sure reserve a lot of bitterness toward the gods of others. And why aren't you railing against all gods, why just the one?

Um, I'm the PP directly above you & that was my first post.I'm not expressing any bitterness toward a particular God, just asking a question.

This has been answered on this forum by believers of different faiths. Why doesn't God save us all from suffering? Because life isn't without suffering. Disease happens. Cancer happens.

And as has been said many times before -- God can't or doesn't fix everything for us --he only fixes some stuff, sometimes. God cures some cancers but he can't or doesn't stop the cancer from happening in the first place and he doesn't cure everyone who has cancer. Sometimes people who don't even pray or go to church have their cancer cured, while people who are loyal Christians and have a whole church full of people praying for them, die anyhow. It often appears quite random.

But even if God decides not to answer your prayers, he's always there to comfort you, if you believe in him. If you don't believe in him, your life may or may not be like that of a person who believes, in terms of health and prosperity, but you definitely won't have God to comfort you when things don't work out the way you'd like.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What kind of God would allow THAT?

You sound like a jerk. Never say that to a person who is going thru something terrible

How is that a jerky response?

We can't question horrible acts? Why does God allow children to be raped? Why does God allow people to be swept away in storms? Why does God allow the death of babies? the beating of animals? acts of terrorism in the name of some god or "God?"

Smart people question; blind followers are just that - blind.

It’s called man’s free will. And, sin.

What about those who die painful, early deaths from diseases such as cancer? Man's free will & sin generally don't factor into these deaths so why does a so-called loving God allow this?

For a person who doesn't believe in a higher power you sure reserve a lot of bitterness toward the gods of others. And why aren't you railing against all gods, why just the one?

Um, I'm the PP directly above you & that was my first post. I'm not expressing any bitterness toward a particular God, just asking a question.

This has been answered on this forum by believers of different faiths. Why doesn't God save us all from suffering? Because life isn't without suffering. Disease happens. Cancer happens.

Religion claims purpose, therefore "it just is" as an answer is circular and not a satisfactory answer. As long as there is no satisfactory answer, people will continue to ask. Religion claims that it has the answer to why we are here, the meaning of everything, life, yet it can't answer an answer so basic as why there is evil. When the victim of child abuse asks why his dad who profess to love him also hurt him, the answer can be complex, but there is an answer.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What kind of God would allow THAT?

You sound like a jerk. Never say that to a person who is going thru something terrible

How is that a jerky response?

We can't question horrible acts? Why does God allow children to be raped? Why does God allow people to be swept away in storms? Why does God allow the death of babies? the beating of animals? acts of terrorism in the name of some god or "God?"

Smart people question; blind followers are just that - blind.

It’s called man’s free will. And, sin.

What about those who die painful, early deaths from diseases such as cancer? Man's free will & sin generally don't factor into these deaths so why does a so-called loving God allow this?

For a person who doesn't believe in a higher power you sure reserve a lot of bitterness toward the gods of others. And why aren't you railing against all gods, why just the one?

Um, I'm the PP directly above you & that was my first post. I'm not expressing any bitterness toward a particular God, just asking a question.

This has been answered on this forum by believers of different faiths. Why doesn't God save us all from suffering? Because life isn't without suffering. Disease happens. Cancer happens.

Religion claims purpose, therefore "it just is" as an answer is circular and not a satisfactory answer. As long as there is no satisfactory answer, people will continue to ask. Religion claims that it has the answer to why we are here, the meaning of everything, life, yet it can't answer an answer so basic as why there is evil. When the victim of child abuse asks why his dad who profess to love him also hurt him, the answer can be complex, but there is an answer.

But we're limiting this discussion to DCUM. If the same question appears repeatedly here without a satisfying answer, then shouldn't the asker branch out and look elsewhere? I promise you that the religion board of DCUM is not the place to go if you have complex questions you're looking to answer. That should be obvious.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What kind of God would allow THAT?

You sound like a jerk. Never say that to a person who is going thru something terrible

How is that a jerky response?

We can't question horrible acts? Why does God allow children to be raped? Why does God allow people to be swept away in storms? Why does God allow the death of babies? the beating of animals? acts of terrorism in the name of some god or "God?"

Smart people question; blind followers are just that - blind.

It’s called man’s free will. And, sin.

What about those who die painful, early deaths from diseases such as cancer? Man's free will & sin generally don't factor into these deaths so why does a so-called loving God allow this?

For a person who doesn't believe in a higher power you sure reserve a lot of bitterness toward the gods of others. And why aren't you railing against all gods, why just the one?

Um, I'm the PP directly above you & that was my first post. I'm not expressing any bitterness toward a particular God, just asking a question.

This has been answered on this forum by believers of different faiths. Why doesn't God save us all from suffering? Because life isn't without suffering. Disease happens. Cancer happens.

Maybe people have already gone to their clergy person and didn't get a helpful answer. If not -- talking to a trusted pastor would be a good idea. I'd love to hear what they had to day.

Religion claims purpose, therefore "it just is" as an answer is circular and not a satisfactory answer. As long as there is no satisfactory answer, people will continue to ask. Religion claims that it has the answer to why we are here, the meaning of everything, life, yet it can't answer an answer so basic as why there is evil. When the victim of child abuse asks why his dad who profess to love him also hurt him, the answer can be complex, but there is an answer.

But we're limiting this discussion to DCUM. If the same question appears repeatedly here without a satisfying answer, then shouldn't the asker branch out and look elsewhere? I promise you that the religion board of DCUM is not the place to go if you have complex questions you're looking to answer. That should be obvious.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What kind of God would allow THAT?

You sound like a jerk. Never say that to a person who is going thru something terrible

How is that a jerky response?

We can't question horrible acts? Why does God allow children to be raped? Why does God allow people to be swept away in storms? Why does God allow the death of babies? the beating of animals? acts of terrorism in the name of some god or "God?"

Smart people question; blind followers are just that - blind.

It’s called man’s free will. And, sin.

What about those who die painful, early deaths from diseases such as cancer? Man's free will & sin generally don't factor into these deaths so why does a so-called loving God allow this?

For a person who doesn't believe in a higher power you sure reserve a lot of bitterness toward the gods of others. And why aren't you railing against all gods, why just the one?

Um, I'm the PP directly above you & that was my first post. I'm not expressing any bitterness toward a particular God, just asking a question.

This has been answered on this forum by believers of different faiths. Why doesn't God save us all from suffering? Because life isn't without suffering. Disease happens. Cancer happens.

Religion claims purpose, therefore "it just is" as an answer is circular and not a satisfactory answer. As long as there is no satisfactory answer, people will continue to ask. Religion claims that it has the answer to why we are here, the meaning of everything, life, yet it can't answer an answer so basic as why there is evil. When the victim of child abuse asks why his dad who profess to love him also hurt him, the answer can be complex, but there is an answer.

But we're limiting this discussion to DCUM. If the same question appears repeatedly here without a satisfying answer, then shouldn't the asker branch out and look elsewhere? I promise you that the religion board of DCUM is not the place to go if you have complex questions you're looking to answer. That should be obvious.

Maybe people have already gone to their clergy person and didn't get a helpful answer. If not -- talking to a trusted pastor would be a good idea. I'd love to hear what they had to day.