Is the Charleston church shooting making anyone doubt their Faith?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It shouldn't matter matter if your mom is in MENSA or illiterate, if you're a national merit semifinalist (people really brag about that?) or didn't finish high school. People can believe bad ideas for bad reasons. Smarter people are better than average about trying to reconcile cognitive dissonance but that doesn't mean an idea is correct. What matters is not who's saying it, or where they come from, but why.

In the end, being religious - believing in God and Jesus and the miracles - requires faith. I've never heard a believer say any differently including the NMSSF above and her Mensa mother. Almost all believers go through a period of doubting about their religion. Some go through multiple periods during their lives - and they will eventually come back because they have faith. Some say doubt is necessary for a mature faith. Faith is ultimately not affected by evidence. Faith is beyond evidence and reason. It is a gift that not everyone seems to have, but believers think that if you try really hard and pray to god, faith will eventually come to you. That's what happened to them, in many cases.

People with faith pity those who do not have it, because they don't experience the warmth of God and they will not live with him forever after death. They realize that's their choice, however, thanks to the gift of free will that God gave everyone, so humans wouldn't be robots, with everyone going to heaven automatically, because he programmed the ability to believe in God to everyone he created. He didn't do that because he didn't want to make a bunch of believing robots.

If this doesn't make sense to you, it's not related to your intelligence level. Some very smart and some very intellectually challenged people have the same deep faith in God. God doesn't favor one type of person over the other. We all have free will.

There's a lot to unpack and discuss in your post but my primary response is this: If you define faith as "belief without or in spite of evidence" (and I think you do based on what you wrote) then ANYTHING can be justified by faith. Reread that again. Don't believe Jesus rose from the dead? Just gotta have faith. Did Joseph Smith really find some magic plates from God in upstate NY? Just gotta have faith. Is Mohammed the one true profit? Just gotta have faith. Are there unicorns deep inside the planet of Saturn? Just gotta have faith. Is Superman really based on a real guy who the government cloned in a lab years ago? Just gotta have faith. You see my point. Pick out an idea you think is absurd and I can justify it solely by faith according to your logic. That's the problem.

I'm sorry, but I discard anything anyone else if they can't spell prophet correctly in a religious forum.

OK, OK I walked into that one!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It shouldn't matter matter if your mom is in MENSA or illiterate, if you're a national merit semifinalist (people really brag about that?) or didn't finish high school. People can believe bad ideas for bad reasons. Smarter people are better than average about trying to reconcile cognitive dissonance but that doesn't mean an idea is correct. What matters is not who's saying it, or where they come from, but why.

In the end, being religious - believing in God and Jesus and the miracles - requires faith. I've never heard a believer say any differently including the NMSSF above and her Mensa mother. Almost all believers go through a period of doubting about their religion. Some go through multiple periods during their lives - and they will eventually come back because they have faith. Some say doubt is necessary for a mature faith. Faith is ultimately not affected by evidence. Faith is beyond evidence and reason. It is a gift that not everyone seems to have, but believers think that if you try really hard and pray to god, faith will eventually come to you. That's what happened to them, in many cases.

People with faith pity those who do not have it, because they don't experience the warmth of God and they will not live with him forever after death. They realize that's their choice, however, thanks to the gift of free will that God gave everyone, so humans wouldn't be robots, with everyone going to heaven automatically, because he programmed the ability to believe in God to everyone he created. He didn't do that because he didn't want to make a bunch of believing robots.

If this doesn't make sense to you, it's not related to your intelligence level. Some very smart and some very intellectually challenged people have the same deep faith in God. God doesn't favor one type of person over the other. We all have free will.

There's a lot to unpack and discuss in your post but my primary response is this: If you define faith as "belief without or in spite of evidence" (and I think you do based on what you wrote) then ANYTHING can be justified by faith. Reread that again. Don't believe Jesus rose from the dead? Just gotta have faith. Did Joseph Smith really find some magic plates from God in upstate NY? Just gotta have faith. Is Mohammed the one true profit? Just gotta have faith. Are there unicorns deep inside the planet of Saturn? Just gotta have faith. Is Superman really based on a real guy who the government cloned in a lab years ago? Just gotta have faith. You see my point. Pick out an idea you think is absurd and I can justify it solely by faith according to your logic. That's the problem.

Your point is obvious. What is not mentioned is that some ideas merit faith and others don't. Superman is obviously a story made up by someone trying to entertain people. Religion comes from God.

Two points: If you're defining "faith" as "something you believe without or in spite of evidence after you think it deserves believing in", how is that not circular? Something you believe in cause you think it deserves belief? Also, my original point still stands in that faith, even with your new definition, can be used to justify anything. The certainty with which you feel about Jesus is the same certain that some feel about Joseph Smith, Mohammed, the story behind Scientology, or the cargo cults in the South Pacific.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It shouldn't matter matter if your mom is in MENSA or illiterate, if you're a national merit semifinalist (people really brag about that?) or didn't finish high school. People can believe bad ideas for bad reasons. Smarter people are better than average about trying to reconcile cognitive dissonance but that doesn't mean an idea is correct. What matters is not who's saying it, or where they come from, but why.

In the end, being religious - believing in God and Jesus and the miracles - requires faith. I've never heard a believer say any differently including the NMSSF above and her Mensa mother. Almost all believers go through a period of doubting about their religion. Some go through multiple periods during their lives - and they will eventually come back because they have faith. Some say doubt is necessary for a mature faith. Faith is ultimately not affected by evidence. Faith is beyond evidence and reason. It is a gift that not everyone seems to have, but believers think that if you try really hard and pray to god, faith will eventually come to you. That's what happened to them, in many cases.

People with faith pity those who do not have it, because they don't experience the warmth of God and they will not live with him forever after death. They realize that's their choice, however, thanks to the gift of free will that God gave everyone, so humans wouldn't be robots, with everyone going to heaven automatically, because he programmed the ability to believe in God to everyone he created. He didn't do that because he didn't want to make a bunch of believing robots.

If this doesn't make sense to you, it's not related to your intelligence level. Some very smart and some very intellectually challenged people have the same deep faith in God. God doesn't favor one type of person over the other. We all have free will.

There's a lot to unpack and discuss in your post but my primary response is this: If you define faith as "belief without or in spite of evidence" (and I think you do based on what you wrote) then ANYTHING can be justified by faith. Reread that again. Don't believe Jesus rose from the dead? Just gotta have faith. Did Joseph Smith really find some magic plates from God in upstate NY? Just gotta have faith. Is Mohammed the one true profit? Just gotta have faith. Are there unicorns deep inside the planet of Saturn? Just gotta have faith. Is Superman really based on a real guy who the government cloned in a lab years ago? Just gotta have faith. You see my point. Pick out an idea you think is absurd and I can justify it solely by faith according to your logic. That's the problem.

Your point is obvious. What is not mentioned is that some ideas merit faith and others don't. Superman is obviously a story made up by someone trying to entertain people. Religion comes from God.

Then what is the criteria by which "... some ideas merit faith and others don't"? Whatever you want to think is true?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It shouldn't matter matter if your mom is in MENSA or illiterate, if you're a national merit semifinalist (people really brag about that?) or didn't finish high school. People can believe bad ideas for bad reasons. Smarter people are better than average about trying to reconcile cognitive dissonance but that doesn't mean an idea is correct. What matters is not who's saying it, or where they come from, but why.

In the end, being religious - believing in God and Jesus and the miracles - requires faith. I've never heard a believer say any differently including the NMSSF above and her Mensa mother. Almost all believers go through a period of doubting about their religion. Some go through multiple periods during their lives - and they will eventually come back because they have faith. Some say doubt is necessary for a mature faith. Faith is ultimately not affected by evidence. Faith is beyond evidence and reason. It is a gift that not everyone seems to have, but believers think that if you try really hard and pray to god, faith will eventually come to you. That's what happened to them, in many cases.

People with faith pity those who do not have it, because they don't experience the warmth of God and they will not live with him forever after death. They realize that's their choice, however, thanks to the gift of free will that God gave everyone, so humans wouldn't be robots, with everyone going to heaven automatically, because he programmed the ability to believe in God to everyone he created. He didn't do that because he didn't want to make a bunch of believing robots.

If this doesn't make sense to you, it's not related to your intelligence level. Some very smart and some very intellectually challenged people have the same deep faith in God. God doesn't favor one type of person over the other. We all have free will.

There's a lot to unpack and discuss in your post but my primary response is this: If you define faith as "belief without or in spite of evidence" (and I think you do based on what you wrote) then ANYTHING can be justified by faith. Reread that again. Don't believe Jesus rose from the dead? Just gotta have faith. Did Joseph Smith really find some magic plates from God in upstate NY? Just gotta have faith. Is Mohammed the one true profit? Just gotta have faith. Are there unicorns deep inside the planet of Saturn? Just gotta have faith. Is Superman really based on a real guy who the government cloned in a lab years ago? Just gotta have faith. You see my point. Pick out an idea you think is absurd and I can justify it solely by faith according to your logic. That's the problem.

I'm sorry, but I discard anything anyone else if they can't spell prophet correctly in a religious forum.

OK, OK I walked into that one!

eh
no biggie

btw - What's the difference? especially in today's world
A prophet PROFITS off the masses.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It shouldn't matter matter if your mom is in MENSA or illiterate, if you're a national merit semifinalist (people really brag about that?) or didn't finish high school. People can believe bad ideas for bad reasons. Smarter people are better than average about trying to reconcile cognitive dissonance but that doesn't mean an idea is correct. What matters is not who's saying it, or where they come from, but why.

In the end, being religious - believing in God and Jesus and the miracles - requires faith. I've never heard a believer say any differently including the NMSSF above and her Mensa mother. Almost all believers go through a period of doubting about their religion. Some go through multiple periods during their lives - and they will eventually come back because they have faith. Some say doubt is necessary for a mature faith. Faith is ultimately not affected by evidence. Faith is beyond evidence and reason. It is a gift that not everyone seems to have, but believers think that if you try really hard and pray to god, faith will eventually come to you. That's what happened to them, in many cases.

People with faith pity those who do not have it, because they don't experience the warmth of God and they will not live with him forever after death. They realize that's their choice, however, thanks to the gift of free will that God gave everyone, so humans wouldn't be robots, with everyone going to heaven automatically, because he programmed the ability to believe in God to everyone he created. He didn't do that because he didn't want to make a bunch of believing robots.

If this doesn't make sense to you, it's not related to your intelligence level. Some very smart and some very intellectually challenged people have the same deep faith in God. God doesn't favor one type of person over the other. We all have free will.

There's a lot to unpack and discuss in your post but my primary response is this: If you define faith as "belief without or in spite of evidence" (and I think you do based on what you wrote) then ANYTHING can be justified by faith. Reread that again. Don't believe Jesus rose from the dead? Just gotta have faith. Did Joseph Smith really find some magic plates from God in upstate NY? Just gotta have faith. Is Mohammed the one true profit? Just gotta have faith. Are there unicorns deep inside the planet of Saturn? Just gotta have faith. Is Superman really based on a real guy who the government cloned in a lab years ago? Just gotta have faith. You see my point. Pick out an idea you think is absurd and I can justify it solely by faith according to your logic. That's the problem.

Your point is obvious. What is not mentioned is that some ideas merit faith and others don't. Superman is obviously a story made up by someone trying to entertain people. Religion comes from God.

Two points: If you're defining "faith" as "something you believe without or in spite of evidence after you think it deserves believing in", how is that not circular? Something you believe in cause you think it deserves belief? Also, my original point still stands in that faith, even with your new definition, can be used to justify anything. The certainty with which you feel about Jesus is the same certain that some feel about Joseph Smith, Mohammed, the story behind Scientology, or the cargo cults in the South Pacific.

The point is that Christians do believe that their cause deserves belief; therefore they believe. The people who believe in those other religions are wrong. They may think they are right with the same fervor that Christians believe they are right. But obviously, when people have different views, not everyone can be right. And in this case, Christians are right, which they feel sure of during their lives and which they feel sure will be proven after they die.

You may call it "circular." Christians call it "faith." Very intelligent people who understand the concept of circular reasoning in intellectual matters, simply put that aside when it comes to religion.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It shouldn't matter matter if your mom is in MENSA or illiterate, if you're a national merit semifinalist (people really brag about that?) or didn't finish high school. People can believe bad ideas for bad reasons. Smarter people are better than average about trying to reconcile cognitive dissonance but that doesn't mean an idea is correct. What matters is not who's saying it, or where they come from, but why.

In the end, being religious - believing in God and Jesus and the miracles - requires faith. I've never heard a believer say any differently including the NMSSF above and her Mensa mother. Almost all believers go through a period of doubting about their religion. Some go through multiple periods during their lives - and they will eventually come back because they have faith. Some say doubt is necessary for a mature faith. Faith is ultimately not affected by evidence. Faith is beyond evidence and reason. It is a gift that not everyone seems to have, but believers think that if you try really hard and pray to god, faith will eventually come to you. That's what happened to them, in many cases.

People with faith pity those who do not have it, because they don't experience the warmth of God and they will not live with him forever after death. They realize that's their choice, however, thanks to the gift of free will that God gave everyone, so humans wouldn't be robots, with everyone going to heaven automatically, because he programmed the ability to believe in God to everyone he created. He didn't do that because he didn't want to make a bunch of believing robots.

If this doesn't make sense to you, it's not related to your intelligence level. Some very smart and some very intellectually challenged people have the same deep faith in God. God doesn't favor one type of person over the other. We all have free will.

There's a lot to unpack and discuss in your post but my primary response is this: If you define faith as "belief without or in spite of evidence" (and I think you do based on what you wrote) then ANYTHING can be justified by faith. Reread that again. Don't believe Jesus rose from the dead? Just gotta have faith. Did Joseph Smith really find some magic plates from God in upstate NY? Just gotta have faith. Is Mohammed the one true profit? Just gotta have faith. Are there unicorns deep inside the planet of Saturn? Just gotta have faith. Is Superman really based on a real guy who the government cloned in a lab years ago? Just gotta have faith. You see my point. Pick out an idea you think is absurd and I can justify it solely by faith according to your logic. That's the problem.

Your point is obvious. What is not mentioned is that some ideas merit faith and others don't. Superman is obviously a story made up by someone trying to entertain people. Religion comes from God.

Two points: If you're defining "faith" as "something you believe without or in spite of evidence after you think it deserves believing in", how is that not circular? Something you believe in cause you think it deserves belief? Also, my original point still stands in that faith, even with your new definition, can be used to justify anything. The certainty with which you feel about Jesus is the same certain that some feel about Joseph Smith, Mohammed, the story behind Scientology, or the cargo cults in the South Pacific.

The point is that Christians do believe that their cause deserves belief; therefore they believe. The people who believe in those other religions are wrong. They may think they are right with the same fervor that Christians believe they are right. But obviously, when people have different views, not everyone can be right. And in this case, Christians are right, which they feel sure of during their lives and which they feel sure will be proven after they die.

You may call it "circular." Christians call it "faith." Very intelligent people who understand the concept of circular reasoning in intellectual matters, simply put that aside when it comes to religion.

The fact that you equate the logical fallacy of circular reasoning with something Christians call a virtue ("faith") is very telling. Again, I'm not sure how simply feeling something is right or the truth makes it so. I agree that some intelligent people probably compartmentalize the rest of life and religion. Why? Cognitive dissonance probably. Like I said, smart people are better at justifying bad ideas.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It shouldn't matter matter if your mom is in MENSA or illiterate, if you're a national merit semifinalist (people really brag about that?) or didn't finish high school. People can believe bad ideas for bad reasons. Smarter people are better than average about trying to reconcile cognitive dissonance but that doesn't mean an idea is correct. What matters is not who's saying it, or where they come from, but why.

In the end, being religious - believing in God and Jesus and the miracles - requires faith. I've never heard a believer say any differently including the NMSSF above and her Mensa mother. Almost all believers go through a period of doubting about their religion. Some go through multiple periods during their lives - and they will eventually come back because they have faith. Some say doubt is necessary for a mature faith. Faith is ultimately not affected by evidence. Faith is beyond evidence and reason. It is a gift that not everyone seems to have, but believers think that if you try really hard and pray to god, faith will eventually come to you. That's what happened to them, in many cases.

People with faith pity those who do not have it, because they don't experience the warmth of God and they will not live with him forever after death. They realize that's their choice, however, thanks to the gift of free will that God gave everyone, so humans wouldn't be robots, with everyone going to heaven automatically, because he programmed the ability to believe in God to everyone he created. He didn't do that because he didn't want to make a bunch of believing robots.

If this doesn't make sense to you, it's not related to your intelligence level. Some very smart and some very intellectually challenged people have the same deep faith in God. God doesn't favor one type of person over the other. We all have free will.

There's a lot to unpack and discuss in your post but my primary response is this: If you define faith as "belief without or in spite of evidence" (and I think you do based on what you wrote) then ANYTHING can be justified by faith. Reread that again. Don't believe Jesus rose from the dead? Just gotta have faith. Did Joseph Smith really find some magic plates from God in upstate NY? Just gotta have faith. Is Mohammed the one true profit? Just gotta have faith. Are there unicorns deep inside the planet of Saturn? Just gotta have faith. Is Superman really based on a real guy who the government cloned in a lab years ago? Just gotta have faith. You see my point. Pick out an idea you think is absurd and I can justify it solely by faith according to your logic. That's the problem.

I'm sorry, but I discard anything anyone else if they can't spell prophet correctly in a religious forum.

Does this rule extend to grammatical errors or hypocrisy?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It shouldn't matter matter if your mom is in MENSA or illiterate, if you're a national merit semifinalist (people really brag about that?) or didn't finish high school. People can believe bad ideas for bad reasons. Smarter people are better than average about trying to reconcile cognitive dissonance but that doesn't mean an idea is correct. What matters is not who's saying it, or where they come from, but why.

In the end, being religious - believing in God and Jesus and the miracles - requires faith. I've never heard a believer say any differently including the NMSSF above and her Mensa mother. Almost all believers go through a period of doubting about their religion. Some go through multiple periods during their lives - and they will eventually come back because they have faith. Some say doubt is necessary for a mature faith. Faith is ultimately not affected by evidence. Faith is beyond evidence and reason. It is a gift that not everyone seems to have, but believers think that if you try really hard and pray to god, faith will eventually come to you. That's what happened to them, in many cases.

People with faith pity those who do not have it, because they don't experience the warmth of God and they will not live with him forever after death. They realize that's their choice, however, thanks to the gift of free will that God gave everyone, so humans wouldn't be robots, with everyone going to heaven automatically, because he programmed the ability to believe in God to everyone he created. He didn't do that because he didn't want to make a bunch of believing robots.

If this doesn't make sense to you, it's not related to your intelligence level. Some very smart and some very intellectually challenged people have the same deep faith in God. God doesn't favor one type of person over the other. We all have free will.

There's a lot to unpack and discuss in your post but my primary response is this: If you define faith as "belief without or in spite of evidence" (and I think you do based on what you wrote) then ANYTHING can be justified by faith. Reread that again. Don't believe Jesus rose from the dead? Just gotta have faith. Did Joseph Smith really find some magic plates from God in upstate NY? Just gotta have faith. Is Mohammed the one true profit? Just gotta have faith. Are there unicorns deep inside the planet of Saturn? Just gotta have faith. Is Superman really based on a real guy who the government cloned in a lab years ago? Just gotta have faith. You see my point. Pick out an idea you think is absurd and I can justify it solely by faith according to your logic. That's the problem.

Your point is obvious. What is not mentioned is that some ideas merit faith and others don't. Superman is obviously a story made up by someone trying to entertain people. Religion comes from God.

Two points: If you're defining "faith" as "something you believe without or in spite of evidence after you think it deserves believing in", how is that not circular? Something you believe in cause you think it deserves belief? Also, my original point still stands in that faith, even with your new definition, can be used to justify anything. The certainty with which you feel about Jesus is the same certain that some feel about Joseph Smith, Mohammed, the story behind Scientology, or the cargo cults in the South Pacific.

The point is that Christians do believe that their cause deserves belief; therefore they believe. The people who believe in those other religions are wrong. They may think they are right with the same fervor that Christians believe they are right. But obviously, when people have different views, not everyone can be right. And in this case, Christians are right, which they feel sure of during their lives and which they feel sure will be proven after they die.

You may call it "circular." Christians call it "faith." Very intelligent people who understand the concept of circular reasoning in intellectual matters, simply put that aside when it comes to religion.

The fact that you equate the logical fallacy of circular reasoning with something Christians call a virtue ("faith") is very telling. Again, I'm not sure how simply feeling something is right or the truth makes it so. I agree that some intelligent people probably compartmentalize the rest of life and religion. Why? Cognitive dissonance probably. Like I said, smart people are better at justifying bad ideas.

"Cognitive dissonance" is a term used in brain science, not Christian apologetics. Christians will talk openly and proudly of having doubts and then at some point "faith takes over."

There are all kinds of Christians, of course - for some, their faith allows them to believe everything in the bible, including talking donkeys, a worldwide flood, coming back from the dead,etc. For others, its more of a metaphorical understanding of the bible accompanied by a sense of being watched over by a loving being who will ultimately provide eternal life. Either way, and for everything in between, it's a matter of faith.

The only people left out of this are people who have discarded faith or who never had it. Some Christians believe those people will suffer for eternity for their lack of faith. Others think they will simply not have an afterlife. Others believe they will go to heaven, if they've lived a good life, even if they did not have any faith. People make up their own minds about these things, but Christianity makes it very clear that belief is needed to go to heaven.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It shouldn't matter matter if your mom is in MENSA or illiterate, if you're a national merit semifinalist (people really brag about that?) or didn't finish high school. People can believe bad ideas for bad reasons. Smarter people are better than average about trying to reconcile cognitive dissonance but that doesn't mean an idea is correct. What matters is not who's saying it, or where they come from, but why.

In the end, being religious - believing in God and Jesus and the miracles - requires faith. I've never heard a believer say any differently including the NMSSF above and her Mensa mother. Almost all believers go through a period of doubting about their religion. Some go through multiple periods during their lives - and they will eventually come back because they have faith. Some say doubt is necessary for a mature faith. Faith is ultimately not affected by evidence. Faith is beyond evidence and reason. It is a gift that not everyone seems to have, but believers think that if you try really hard and pray to god, faith will eventually come to you. That's what happened to them, in many cases.

People with faith pity those who do not have it, because they don't experience the warmth of God and they will not live with him forever after death. They realize that's their choice, however, thanks to the gift of free will that God gave everyone, so humans wouldn't be robots, with everyone going to heaven automatically, because he programmed the ability to believe in God to everyone he created. He didn't do that because he didn't want to make a bunch of believing robots.

If this doesn't make sense to you, it's not related to your intelligence level. Some very smart and some very intellectually challenged people have the same deep faith in God. God doesn't favor one type of person over the other. We all have free will.

There's a lot to unpack and discuss in your post but my primary response is this: If you define faith as "belief without or in spite of evidence" (and I think you do based on what you wrote) then ANYTHING can be justified by faith. Reread that again. Don't believe Jesus rose from the dead? Just gotta have faith. Did Joseph Smith really find some magic plates from God in upstate NY? Just gotta have faith. Is Mohammed the one true profit? Just gotta have faith. Are there unicorns deep inside the planet of Saturn? Just gotta have faith. Is Superman really based on a real guy who the government cloned in a lab years ago? Just gotta have faith. You see my point. Pick out an idea you think is absurd and I can justify it solely by faith according to your logic. That's the problem.

Your point is obvious. What is not mentioned is that some ideas merit faith and others don't. Superman is obviously a story made up by someone trying to entertain people. Religion comes from God.

Two points: If you're defining "faith" as "something you believe without or in spite of evidence after you think it deserves believing in", how is that not circular? Something you believe in cause you think it deserves belief? Also, my original point still stands in that faith, even with your new definition, can be used to justify anything. The certainty with which you feel about Jesus is the same certain that some feel about Joseph Smith, Mohammed, the story behind Scientology, or the cargo cults in the South Pacific.

The point is that Christians do believe that their cause deserves belief; therefore they believe. The people who believe in those other religions are wrong. They may think they are right with the same fervor that Christians believe they are right. But obviously, when people have different views, not everyone can be right. And in this case, Christians are right, which they feel sure of during their lives and which they feel sure will be proven after they die.

You may call it "circular." Christians call it "faith." Very intelligent people who understand the concept of circular reasoning in intellectual matters, simply put that aside when it comes to religion.

The fact that you equate the logical fallacy of circular reasoning with something Christians call a virtue ("faith") is very telling. Again, I'm not sure how simply feeling something is right or the truth makes it so. I agree that some intelligent people probably compartmentalize the rest of life and religion. Why? Cognitive dissonance probably. Like I said, smart people are better at justifying bad ideas.

"Cognitive dissonance" is a term used in brain science, not Christian apologetics. Christians will talk openly and proudly of having doubts and then at some point "faith takes over."

There are all kinds of Christians, of course - for some, their faith allows them to believe everything in the bible, including talking donkeys, a worldwide flood, coming back from the dead,etc. For others, its more of a metaphorical understanding of the bible accompanied by a sense of being watched over by a loving being who will ultimately provide eternal life. Either way, and for everything in between, it's a matter of faith.

The only people left out of this are people who have discarded faith or who never had it. Some Christians believe those people will suffer for eternity for their lack of faith. Others think they will simply not have an afterlife. Others believe they will go to heaven, if they've lived a good life, even if they did not have any faith. People make up their own minds about these things, but Christianity makes it very clear that belief is needed to go to heaven.

You responded to my post but sort of missed its point. I know everything you stated. What I'm saying is that you need to perform some sort of mental gymnastics to take this stuff seriously. Furthermore the fact that faith, "belief without evidence", is not only accepted but cherished by the religious makes it all the more bizarre. In any other area of life, no one would take this approach.

[Anonymous]

Oh, fabulous! Yet another opportunity to discuss faith with aggressively angry atheists--and it looks like a reasonable atheist or two--who don't have faith and don't understand how anybody could have faith.

Oh wait, why bother If you don't have faith, and especially if you're aggressively angry about the possibility of faith and are dogmatic about rejecting faith, then nobody here is going to make faith understandable to you.

Let's stop wasting our time here, all of us.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Oh, fabulous! Yet another opportunity to discuss faith with aggressively angry atheists--and it looks like a reasonable atheist or two--who don't have faith and don't understand how anybody could have faith.

Oh wait, why bother If you don't have faith, and especially if you're aggressively angry about the possibility of faith and are dogmatic about rejecting faith, then nobody here is going to make faith understandable to you.

Let's stop wasting our time here, all of us.

It's understandable that people of faith become impatient trying to explain it. It's more something that you "have" or "feel" - it's like a talent, which may be why it's called the gift of faith. Yet, if people try hard enough, they usually can acquire it.

Immediate pp above is obviously one of the faithful who is very impatient. However, if she tried, she might get through to someone who is really wants to have faith, though there's likely no hope for someone who actively resists believing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It shouldn't matter matter if your mom is in MENSA or illiterate, if you're a national merit semifinalist (people really brag about that?) or didn't finish high school. People can believe bad ideas for bad reasons. Smarter people are better than average about trying to reconcile cognitive dissonance but that doesn't mean an idea is correct. What matters is not who's saying it, or where they come from, but why.

In the end, being religious - believing in God and Jesus and the miracles - requires faith. I've never heard a believer say any differently including the NMSSF above and her Mensa mother. Almost all believers go through a period of doubting about their religion. Some go through multiple periods during their lives - and they will eventually come back because they have faith. Some say doubt is necessary for a mature faith. Faith is ultimately not affected by evidence. Faith is beyond evidence and reason. It is a gift that not everyone seems to have, but believers think that if you try really hard and pray to god, faith will eventually come to you. That's what happened to them, in many cases.

People with faith pity those who do not have it, because they don't experience the warmth of God and they will not live with him forever after death. They realize that's their choice, however, thanks to the gift of free will that God gave everyone, so humans wouldn't be robots, with everyone going to heaven automatically, because he programmed the ability to believe in God to everyone he created. He didn't do that because he didn't want to make a bunch of believing robots.

If this doesn't make sense to you, it's not related to your intelligence level. Some very smart and some very intellectually challenged people have the same deep faith in God. God doesn't favor one type of person over the other. We all have free will.

There's a lot to unpack and discuss in your post but my primary response is this: If you define faith as "belief without or in spite of evidence" (and I think you do based on what you wrote) then ANYTHING can be justified by faith. Reread that again. Don't believe Jesus rose from the dead? Just gotta have faith. Did Joseph Smith really find some magic plates from God in upstate NY? Just gotta have faith. Is Mohammed the one true profit? Just gotta have faith. Are there unicorns deep inside the planet of Saturn? Just gotta have faith. Is Superman really based on a real guy who the government cloned in a lab years ago? Just gotta have faith. You see my point. Pick out an idea you think is absurd and I can justify it solely by faith according to your logic. That's the problem.

Your point is obvious. What is not mentioned is that some ideas merit faith and others don't. Superman is obviously a story made up by someone trying to entertain people. Religion comes from God.

Two points: If you're defining "faith" as "something you believe without or in spite of evidence after you think it deserves believing in", how is that not circular? Something you believe in cause you think it deserves belief? Also, my original point still stands in that faith, even with your new definition, can be used to justify anything. The certainty with which you feel about Jesus is the same certain that some feel about Joseph Smith, Mohammed, the story behind Scientology, or the cargo cults in the South Pacific.

The point is that Christians do believe that their cause deserves belief; therefore they believe. The people who believe in those other religions are wrong. They may think they are right with the same fervor that Christians believe they are right. But obviously, when people have different views, not everyone can be right. And in this case, Christians are right, which they feel sure of during their lives and which they feel sure will be proven after they die.

You may call it "circular." Christians call it "faith." Very intelligent people who understand the concept of circular reasoning in intellectual matters, simply put that aside when it comes to religion.

The fact that you equate the logical fallacy of circular reasoning with something Christians call a virtue ("faith") is very telling. Again, I'm not sure how simply feeling something is right or the truth makes it so. I agree that some intelligent people probably compartmentalize the rest of life and religion. Why? Cognitive dissonance probably. Like I said, smart people are better at justifying bad ideas.

"Cognitive dissonance" is a term used in brain science, not Christian apologetics. Christians will talk openly and proudly of having doubts and then at some point "faith takes over."

There are all kinds of Christians, of course - for some, their faith allows them to believe everything in the bible, including talking donkeys, a worldwide flood, coming back from the dead,etc. For others, its more of a metaphorical understanding of the bible accompanied by a sense of being watched over by a loving being who will ultimately provide eternal life. Either way, and for everything in between, it's a matter of faith.

The only people left out of this are people who have discarded faith or who never had it. Some Christians believe those people will suffer for eternity for their lack of faith. Others think they will simply not have an afterlife. Others believe they will go to heaven, if they've lived a good life, even if they did not have any faith. People make up their own minds about these things, but Christianity makes it very clear that belief is needed to go to heaven.

You responded to my post but sort of missed its point. I know everything you stated. What I'm saying is that you need to perform some sort of mental gymnastics to take this stuff seriously. Furthermore the fact that faith, "belief without evidence", is not only accepted but cherished by the religious makes it all the more bizarre. In any other area of life, no one would take this approach.

To you it's mental gymnastics, to a person of faith, it's simply faith -- not that it's always easy to believe certain things about religion, but people of faith always return to it.

Religion is definitely a different approach to life. Some people have no problem separating it out. Others struggle with it. Others really don't want to be bothered with it -- it seems superfluous to their lives.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Oh, fabulous! Yet another opportunity to discuss faith with aggressively angry atheists--and it looks like a reasonable atheist or two--who don't have faith and don't understand how anybody could have faith.

Oh wait, why bother If you don't have faith, and especially if you're aggressively angry about the possibility of faith and are dogmatic about rejecting faith, then nobody here is going to make faith understandable to you.

Let's stop wasting our time here, all of us.

While neither of us might change our minds perhaps this thread would be good fodder for someone who is thinking about their own world views. Isn't that one of the benefits of a public message board?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Oh, fabulous! Yet another opportunity to discuss faith with aggressively angry atheists--and it looks like a reasonable atheist or two--who don't have faith and don't understand how anybody could have faith.

Oh wait, why bother If you don't have faith, and especially if you're aggressively angry about the possibility of faith and are dogmatic about rejecting faith, then nobody here is going to make faith understandable to you.

Let's stop wasting our time here, all of us.

While neither of us might change our minds perhaps this thread would be good fodder for someone who is thinking about their own world views. Isn't that one of the benefits of a public message board?

Definitely -- but people who are defensive about their beliefs might not want people to hear other points of view. Secure atheists and secure believers, however, will likely be open to having people make up their own minds with the help of this message board.

Secure atheists feel comfortable that this is the one life we have and secure believers have faith that overcomes their doubts about death. They can make themselves believe that with accepting Christ as their savior, there will be an eternal life where they will be with their loved ones forever. This will include their beloved grandparents and great grandparents whom they never knew and their great-great- grand parents, etc., surrounded by all their predecessors, and friends -- at least since the time of Christianity and among those who accepted Christ as their savior.