HGC demographics

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Actually, the American perspective is that talent and hard-work should be rewarded. That's why so many people from other countries come here.

Americans today don't follow this perspective. School is play time. College is drinking and frat time. People come here from other countries because there is less competition (Americans are uneducated), lower taxes, and less government intrusion/instability.

Asians and Indians educated in their home countries must work hard. The population and competition is much higher. There is a cultural expectation that children and young adults will work hard and achieve not find themselves while spending 7 years to get an english or education major while their parents support them.

Then why do Indians score so horribly on international educational assessment tests like the PISA?

Specifically, India was 73rd out of 74 countries in the 2009 PISA. They did beat Kyrgyztan, so that's something I guess. Please tell us more about this wondrous educational system they have there where everybody works hard and achieves.

You may be right. Education is not accessible to many poor children in India, and many more children only get a rudimentary education that enables them to read and write. However, if you compare any child being educated in major metropolitan cities of India - the standard is extremely high.

But why talk about all the kids in India? Let's talk about the Indian kids who are here...they are doing exceedingly well. They come from intact families, their parents are successful and engaged with them, their college will be paid for (in most cases) and they will excel in school.

When given the same opportunities in MCPS that is available to all students in MoCo (including children of your race) - Indians (and Asians) are doing better.

Maybe it is their genes and superior brains because as you pointed out India is low down in PISA.

Asians in the US outscore Asians in every county in the world on international tests.
Whites in the US are very near the top when compared to white kids in europe/canada etc. on international tests.
Hispanics in the US outscore every majority Hispanic country in the world on international tests.

Clearly the educational system here sucks and is grossly inferior to the educational system in the rest of the world.

WRT the performance of Indians and Asians in MoCo (who I agree are doing very well), do you believe that they're a representative sampling of the countries they're from? We both know the answer to that. I work in IT, so I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if the Asian and Indian kids in MoCo are significantly smarter than average; I know their parents are. But that wasn't really my point; my point is that the educational system in the US isn't nearly as bad as most people want to make it out to be.

? Where did you get this from?

Read this: http://super-economy.blogspot.com/2010/12/amazing-truth-about-pisa-scores-usa.html

Obviously not definitive, but the same analysis has been done elsewhere and reached the same conclusion. From the posting:

The mean score of Americans with European ancestry is 524, compared to 506 in Europe, when first and second generation immigrants are excluded.

For Asian-American students (remember this includes Vietnam, Thailand and other less developed countries outside Northeast Asia), the mean PISA score is 534, same as 533 for the average of Japan, South Korea, Singapore and Hong Kong.

That is a very interesting perspective. Don't know how accurate it is since it's just a blogspot, but I guess if you consider the fact that the US has one of the most diverse and largest immigrant populations (especially compared to Asian countries), that could factor into the lower test scores. And yes, Australia and Canada have a much more stringent immigration policy (language + skills), so again, even with their relatively high immigrant population one could see why their test scores aren't as bad as the US.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Specifically, India was 73rd out of 74 countries in the 2009 PISA. They did beat Kyrgyztan, so that's something I guess. Please tell us more about this wondrous educational system they have there where everybody works hard and achieves.

You may be right. Education is not accessible to many poor children in India, and many more children only get a rudimentary education that enables them to read and write. However, if you compare any child being educated in major metropolitan cities of India - the standard is extremely high.

But why talk about all the kids in India? Let's talk about the Indian kids who are here...they are doing exceedingly well. They come from intact families, their parents are successful and engaged with them, their college will be paid for (in most cases) and they will excel in school.

When given the same opportunities in MCPS that is available to all students in MoCo (including children of your race) - Indians (and Asians) are doing better.

Maybe it is their genes and superior brains because as you pointed out India is low down in PISA.

Asians in the US outscore Asians in every county in the world on international tests.
Whites in the US are very near the top when compared to white kids in europe/canada etc. on international tests.
Hispanics in the US outscore every majority Hispanic country in the world on international tests.

Clearly the educational system here sucks and is grossly inferior to the educational system in the rest of the world.

WRT the performance of Indians and Asians in MoCo (who I agree are doing very well), do you believe that they're a representative sampling of the countries they're from? We both know the answer to that. I work in IT, so I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if the Asian and Indian kids in MoCo are significantly smarter than average; I know their parents are. But that wasn't really my point; my point is that the educational system in the US isn't nearly as bad as most people want to make it out to be.

So you are suggesting that the significantly higher than normal representation of Asian (including Indians) in HGC is because they are significantly smarter than average?

OK - I agree. And because these kids are significantly smarter it is not unreasonable to think that they need a more challenging curriculum and they are more focused in academics.

In fact here is something you should think about - many people feel that the Asian kids must be hating all the enrichment, Kumon, tutoring that they get, because their own average kids hate to study. Maybe - since the Asians are significantly smarter than average, they like the mental stimulation that academics offer. Wow! That is a radical concept! Who would think that there are kids who like to be "straight A" kids and like to study.

I will also agree that the education system in the US isn't as nearly as bad. It could be a lot worse. How much worse? Well - we have 2.0 now, and we will see the real impact in a few years. But if this world power wants to lag behind other countries in education there is nothing Asian-Americans can do, can we? The only thing we can do is work hard and try and be competitive by our own efforts. Someone has to work hard so that our great nation does not become a complete idiotocracy!

Partly, the other part is that their parents have drilled/trained/pushed them from a very young age. FWIW, I don't think that merely pushing kids ahead in a curriculum is necessarily the best way to get kids to learn a subject well. Do I think all Asian kids hate the extra enrichment? Don't know. I do know that one of my daughters' friends at the HGC (an Indian girl by the way) tells her all the time how much she hates math. She wouldn't dare tell her parents this. My daughter loves math. Guess who gets drilled in math all the time at home and in the summer? And yet they're in the same class and get very similar grades. Obviously one anecdote isn't data, but I think a lot of these kids being pushed along at a frantic pace early on aren't going to be any further along later in life and may very well be pushed into a field in which they're not happy.

I do agree with you on one of your points though; I support providing a more challenging curriculum for the children that are ready for it. All kids should should be challenged to the best of their abilities. I think the magnet and HGC programs should be expanded to make them more geographically accessible for a larger number of children. Keeping it at the 2-3% level leaves a lot of really bright kids at a level where they're not getting pushed enough. Conversely, I also think that the level of instruction at the top HS's in MoCo outside of the magnets is very good, and the kids coming out of them are IMO competitive with kids anywhere in the world. Perhaps I'm just being naive, but having worked with a lot of these kids through internships, I've been extremely impressed.

With respect to the US educational system not being competitive, as I pointed out before, when (very roughly) controlling for demographics the US isn't lagging behind other countries in education; similar groups in the US outperform the same groups in other countries. If you took South Korea or Japan and replaced 40% of the school age population with poor black and Hispanic kids I don't think there would be many articles extolling the brilliance of their educational systems.

You have an anecdotal example of an Indian girl who does not like math. I also have an anecdotal example of a white girl who does not like math in HGC and she gets help for that. It proves and disproves nothing more than some kids do not like math and they need extra help.

What I find strange is that if you think that the Asian kids have it so bad - why do you care? You can just be happy that your kids do not have to face what Asian kids do. You are not Mother Teresa that you have to pick up the cause of helping Asian kids not be super achievers!

And if by hard work - a child can get into HGC then what is stopping other groups from doing the same? Either they do not have the will to do it or they do not have the smarts to do it. And if a student (and parents) do not have the will, smarts, inclination, interest to be in HGC - why should they be there?

HGC admissions are race-blind (I hope) - so there is no reason for MCPS to be favoring Asian kids over other races. This is a self selected group. MCPS has no reason to fill these HGC spots with Asian kids. If they are there it is because of their own smarts and hard work.

All this hand wringing about Asian achievement is not serving anybody. No one is preventing any student from any race from applying into this program and Asians are not shown any preference.

So, why not make others work hard to bridge the achievement gap? Maybe, it is because this achievement gap cannot be bridged. There is a strong support system inherent in the Asian family and culture that lends itself to this kind of achievement and hard work. You cannot replicate it in other cultures easily. Your children will not accept this kind of rigor and expectation of hard work.

And so if you cannot bridge the achievement gap, should you just lower the bar so that everyone and their donkey can be called "successful"? How is this helping anybody?

If Asians feel that MCPS and the curriculum is inadequate for their child and they supplement on their own time, effort and money - how is that unfair or interfering with anyone else's life goals?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Specifically, India was 73rd out of 74 countries in the 2009 PISA. They did beat Kyrgyztan, so that's something I guess. Please tell us more about this wondrous educational system they have there where everybody works hard and achieves.

You may be right. Education is not accessible to many poor children in India, and many more children only get a rudimentary education that enables them to read and write. However, if you compare any child being educated in major metropolitan cities of India - the standard is extremely high.

But why talk about all the kids in India? Let's talk about the Indian kids who are here...they are doing exceedingly well. They come from intact families, their parents are successful and engaged with them, their college will be paid for (in most cases) and they will excel in school.

When given the same opportunities in MCPS that is available to all students in MoCo (including children of your race) - Indians (and Asians) are doing better.

Maybe it is their genes and superior brains because as you pointed out India is low down in PISA.

Asians in the US outscore Asians in every county in the world on international tests.
Whites in the US are very near the top when compared to white kids in europe/canada etc. on international tests.
Hispanics in the US outscore every majority Hispanic country in the world on international tests.

Clearly the educational system here sucks and is grossly inferior to the educational system in the rest of the world.

WRT the performance of Indians and Asians in MoCo (who I agree are doing very well), do you believe that they're a representative sampling of the countries they're from? We both know the answer to that. I work in IT, so I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if the Asian and Indian kids in MoCo are significantly smarter than average; I know their parents are. But that wasn't really my point; my point is that the educational system in the US isn't nearly as bad as most people want to make it out to be.

So you are suggesting that the significantly higher than normal representation of Asian (including Indians) in HGC is because they are significantly smarter than average?

OK - I agree. And because these kids are significantly smarter it is not unreasonable to think that they need a more challenging curriculum and they are more focused in academics.

In fact here is something you should think about - many people feel that the Asian kids must be hating all the enrichment, Kumon, tutoring that they get, because their own average kids hate to study. Maybe - since the Asians are significantly smarter than average, they like the mental stimulation that academics offer. Wow! That is a radical concept! Who would think that there are kids who like to be "straight A" kids and like to study.

I will also agree that the education system in the US isn't as nearly as bad. It could be a lot worse. How much worse? Well - we have 2.0 now, and we will see the real impact in a few years. But if this world power wants to lag behind other countries in education there is nothing Asian-Americans can do, can we? The only thing we can do is work hard and try and be competitive by our own efforts. Someone has to work hard so that our great nation does not become a complete idiotocracy!

Partly, the other part is that their parents have drilled/trained/pushed them from a very young age. FWIW, I don't think that merely pushing kids ahead in a curriculum is necessarily the best way to get kids to learn a subject well. Do I think all Asian kids hate the extra enrichment? Don't know. I do know that one of my daughters' friends at the HGC (an Indian girl by the way) tells her all the time how much she hates math. She wouldn't dare tell her parents this. My daughter loves math. Guess who gets drilled in math all the time at home and in the summer? And yet they're in the same class and get very similar grades. Obviously one anecdote isn't data, but I think a lot of these kids being pushed along at a frantic pace early on aren't going to be any further along later in life and may very well be pushed into a field in which they're not happy.

I do agree with you on one of your points though; I support providing a more challenging curriculum for the children that are ready for it. All kids should should be challenged to the best of their abilities. I think the magnet and HGC programs should be expanded to make them more geographically accessible for a larger number of children. Keeping it at the 2-3% level leaves a lot of really bright kids at a level where they're not getting pushed enough. Conversely, I also think that the level of instruction at the top HS's in MoCo outside of the magnets is very good, and the kids coming out of them are IMO competitive with kids anywhere in the world. Perhaps I'm just being naive, but having worked with a lot of these kids through internships, I've been extremely impressed.

With respect to the US educational system not being competitive, as I pointed out before, when (very roughly) controlling for demographics the US isn't lagging behind other countries in education; similar groups in the US outperform the same groups in other countries. If you took South Korea or Japan and replaced 40% of the school age population with poor black and Hispanic kids I don't think there would be many articles extolling the brilliance of their educational systems.

You have an anecdotal example of an Indian girl who does not like math. I also have an anecdotal example of a white girl who does not like math in HGC and she gets help for that. It proves and disproves nothing more than some kids do not like math and they need extra help.

What I find strange is that if you think that the Asian kids have it so bad - why do you care? You can just be happy that your kids do not have to face what Asian kids do. You are not Mother Teresa that you have to pick up the cause of helping Asian kids not be super achievers!

And if by hard work - a child can get into HGC then what is stopping other groups from doing the same? Either they do not have the will to do it or they do not have the smarts to do it. And if a student (and parents) do not have the will, smarts, inclination, interest to be in HGC - why should they be there?

HGC admissions are race-blind (I hope) - so there is no reason for MCPS to be favoring Asian kids over other races. This is a self selected group. MCPS has no reason to fill these HGC spots with Asian kids. If they are there it is because of their own smarts and hard work.

All this hand wringing about Asian achievement is not serving anybody. No one is preventing any student from any race from applying into this program and Asians are not shown any preference.

So, why not make others work hard to bridge the achievement gap? Maybe, it is because this achievement gap cannot be bridged. There is a strong support system inherent in the Asian family and culture that lends itself to this kind of achievement and hard work. You cannot replicate it in other cultures easily. Your children will not accept this kind of rigor and expectation of hard work.

And so if you cannot bridge the achievement gap, should you just lower the bar so that everyone and their donkey can be called "successful"? How is this helping anybody?

If Asians feel that MCPS and the curriculum is inadequate for their child and they supplement on their own time, effort and money - how is that unfair or interfering with anyone else's life goals?

Wow, not sure where you got all that from what I posted. My point about the kid not liking math wasn't that she didn't like math, it was that she wouldn't tell her parents that. The point was brought up that Asian kids liked all the extra cramming; my guess is that they really don't (in most cases) but are simply being dutiful children. I will admit that the typical parenting style in the US could use a bit more of that.

I don't have any issues w/ Asian achievement; achieve away. The more smart people we have in this county the better and I for one am not in the least bit worried about my child being able to compete. My point is (and I admit I could be wrong) , that I really don't think this hyper acceleration and cramming really leads to kids that are more likely to achieve later on in life.

I also don't have any issues w/ Asians supplementing on their own. Why would I care? If you really feel that the MCPS curriculum is inadequate then I would expect you as a good parent to do something about it. I personally feel that the curriculum is fine, though I do have some worries about how 2.0 is being rolled out.

Anyway, best of luck to you.

[Anonymous]

In fact here is something you should think about - many people feel that the Asian kids must be hating all the enrichment, Kumon, tutoring that they get, because their own average kids hate to study. Maybe - since the Asians are significantly smarter than average, they like the mental stimulation that academics offer. Wow! That is a radical concept! Who would think that there are kids who like to be "straight A" kids and like to study.

+100 I grew up in a very cheerleader/football type town. I had to pretend that I didn't get As. I could never admit that I liked school and studying more than cartwheels and playing dumb to be popular. I went away to a private school in another state. It was amazing. Everyone cared about academics, worked very hard, was competitive about academics in a positive way, and no one had to hide it. I was so much happier in that environment than the original one. I'm not Asian but I relate to what you wrote.

Sometimes I wonder if the moms so intent on dissing the Asians and kids that enjoy academics are those cheerleader types that I had to pretend to be someone else for when I was a young kid or risk being bullied and excluded.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Asians in the US outscore Asians in every county in the world on international tests.
Whites in the US are very near the top when compared to white kids in europe/canada etc. on international tests.
Hispanics in the US outscore every majority Hispanic country in the world on international tests.

No way in the world US illiterate Hispanics outperform Colombia, Venezuela., Peru, Cuba, Chile, Spain, Argentina, Uruguay, Paraguay and probably others.

[Anonymous]

No way in the world US illiterate Hispanics outperform Colombia, Venezuela., Peru, Cuba, Chile, Spain, Argentina, Uruguay, Paraguay and probably others.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

In fact here is something you should think about - many people feel that the Asian kids must be hating all the enrichment, Kumon, tutoring that they get, because their own average kids hate to study. Maybe - since the Asians are significantly smarter than average, they like the mental stimulation that academics offer. Wow! That is a radical concept! Who would think that there are kids who like to be "straight A" kids and like to study.

+100 I grew up in a very cheerleader/football type town. I had to pretend that I didn't get As. I could never admit that I liked school and studying more than cartwheels and playing dumb to be popular. I went away to a private school in another state. It was amazing. Everyone cared about academics, worked very hard, was competitive about academics in a positive way, and no one had to hide it. I was so much happier in that environment than the original one. I'm not Asian but I relate to what you wrote.

Sometimes I wonder if the moms so intent on dissing the Asians and kids that enjoy academics are those cheerleader types that I had to pretend to be someone else for when I was a young kid or risk being bullied and excluded.

I think a lot of this area is already pretty academically oriented even without the kumons of the world. A lot of parents here do have high academic expectations of their kids without being pushy. I suppose different people have different definitions of what "pushing the kid academically" means.

I think that is what some of the parents here are lamenting...that some kids are probably being pushed into it. Are there some kids that enjoy the extra tutoring? Maybe. But I'm sure there are those that do not. And focusing on social interactions is also very important to one's success in life. If a child's *only" focus is on academic and not social interaction, that child is missing a key part of development. And social interaction is more than a 30min playdate once a week or a 30min recess at school (and in the winter, there is no social interaction at recess as a lot of kids just watch a movie). It's also the spontaneous interactions that occur when playing outside with your friends or at the park.

I'm Asian, never was a cheerleader, loved getting good grades as a kid, value education, but still don't think having extra tutors for young ES kids is necessary to attain success in life, or get into HGC as my DC got in without one. My DC loves to learn, but if I made DC go to after school or weekend tutoring to learn more advanced math or whatever, DC would probably hate it. Instead, DC initiates own extra learning on DCs own by reading, etc... at home without being pushed. At the HGC orientation, the speaker said this is one of the hallmarks of a truly gifted child -- the innate desire to learn. Being pushed into tutoring doesn't reflect that.

[Anonymous]

Agree. I don't care what anyone says - it's the parents who want the tutoring. Their reward is the HGC. No child I know gets excited about test prep and extra work when they could be on Minecraft or outside. My son is at an HGC and I am thankful he didn't get edged out by someone who had hours and hours of preparation. I am sad that my younger child will not be at an HGC because the program is good, but we won't because his needs ARE being met it our local ES. Perhaps he could with hours and hours of work ahead of us but what fun is that for an 8 year old?

[Anonymous]

DCUM is so great for sweeping generalizations!

Everyone thinks that an Indian kid who is a high achiever is not being socialized.

My experience has been that our high performing Indian kids have grown up with tons of socializing , attending and throwing all types of parties and learning the rules of hospitality at home.

They have been born into a community of family and friends and social behavior and conduct is instilled in them from birth. I find it is the Americans who are not socialized properly nor do they have the a sense of hospitality in them.

I have gone to Italian, Greek, Latin, African, Asian, Middle Eastern families and each one of them know how to be welcoming and hospitable. Their children know how to greet and address the guests. They know how to share their toys, they know how to include everyone!

I have yet to see a shining example of "American socialization" that I would want to have my kids emulate.

[Anonymous]

We didn't do test prep for HGC -- I agree with PPs that that seems counterproductive to get my kids into a program they would need to be coached into. But they've willingly taken on the extra challenge of the HGC because they knew they were not challenged before, and at some level they themselves didn't want to continue to coast. Plus the kids that got in ended up being their kind of kids -- the kind of nerdy kids that recite random scientific facts long past the point when you've stopped listening, talk about the latest Cosmos episode and have no clue what else is on TV, and don't tease each other for caring about school. If my kids hadn't gotten in, I would have taken that to mean they were not the ones most desperately in need of more challenge. In some high-performing clusters, the top 2-3% may be even more in need of further challenge than the top 2-3% in another cluster, but I'm not really sure what to do about that -- allocate additional spots by cluster based on county-wide test scores? Imagine the hue and cry about increasing HGC spots in only certain clusters...that would not help the original concern about diversity, IMHO.

I don't think any kid likes extra drills -- my Asian kids don't, but they've been raised (as were we) to understand that additional enrichment is going to be a part of their lives, so they do it. In our case, our main reason for having them do things like IXL or Khan Academy isn't because we think the curriculum is lacking, or because we think it is important to keep them competitive with others. Mainly, it's to give them things to do that aren't video games or stupid TV shows. Our kids are otherwise laughably unscheduled.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We didn't do test prep for HGC -- I agree with PPs that that seems counterproductive to get my kids into a program they would need to be coached into. But they've willingly taken on the extra challenge of the HGC because they knew they were not challenged before, and at some level they themselves didn't want to continue to coast. Plus the kids that got in ended up being their kind of kids -- the kind of nerdy kids that recite random scientific facts long past the point when you've stopped listening, talk about the latest Cosmos episode and have no clue what else is on TV, and don't tease each other for caring about school. If my kids hadn't gotten in, I would have taken that to mean they were not the ones most desperately in need of more challenge. In some high-performing clusters, the top 2-3% may be even more in need of further challenge than the top 2-3% in another cluster, but I'm not really sure what to do about that -- allocate additional spots by cluster based on county-wide test scores? Imagine the hue and cry about increasing HGC spots in only certain clusters...that would not help the original concern about diversity, IMHO.

I don't think any kid likes extra drills -- my Asian kids don't, but they've been raised (as were we) to understand that additional enrichment is going to be a part of their lives, so they do it. In our case, our main reason for having them do things like IXL or Khan Academy isn't because we think the curriculum is lacking, or because we think it is important to keep them competitive with others. Mainly, it's to give them things to do that aren't video games or stupid TV shows. Our kids are otherwise laughably unscheduled.

This is the best reason I have read anywhere on DCUM for a reason to send a kid to academic tutoring (other than for needing extra help). But it seems like there could be better activities to send them to rather than academic tutoring. Add'l sports, music, even volunteering?

Actually, playing some video games (not violent ones) may help a kids' fine motor skills. Not saying we should let kids play electronics all day, but that is one side benefit. I think there was an article some time ago about how they found that surgeons and/or fighter pilots that played more computer games when they were yonger were better at some of the skills that required these types of motor skills.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We didn't do test prep for HGC -- I agree with PPs that that seems counterproductive to get my kids into a program they would need to be coached into. But they've willingly taken on the extra challenge of the HGC because they knew they were not challenged before, and at some level they themselves didn't want to continue to coast. Plus the kids that got in ended up being their kind of kids -- the kind of nerdy kids that recite random scientific facts long past the point when you've stopped listening, talk about the latest Cosmos episode and have no clue what else is on TV, and don't tease each other for caring about school. If my kids hadn't gotten in, I would have taken that to mean they were not the ones most desperately in need of more challenge. In some high-performing clusters, the top 2-3% may be even more in need of further challenge than the top 2-3% in another cluster, but I'm not really sure what to do about that -- allocate additional spots by cluster based on county-wide test scores? Imagine the hue and cry about increasing HGC spots in only certain clusters...that would not help the original concern about diversity, IMHO.

I don't think any kid likes extra drills -- my Asian kids don't, but they've been raised (as were we) to understand that additional enrichment is going to be a part of their lives, so they do it. In our case, our main reason for having them do things like IXL or Khan Academy isn't because we think the curriculum is lacking, or because we think it is important to keep them competitive with others. Mainly, it's to give them things to do that aren't video games or stupid TV shows. Our kids are otherwise laughably unscheduled.

This is the best reason I have read anywhere on DCUM for a reason to send a kid to academic tutoring (other than for needing extra help). But it seems like there could be better activities to send them to rather than academic tutoring. Add'l sports, music, even volunteering?

Actually, playing some video games (not violent ones) may help a kids' fine motor skills. Not saying we should let kids play electronics all day, but that is one side benefit. I think there was an article some time ago about how they found that surgeons and/or fighter pilots that played more computer games when they were yonger were better at some of the skills that required these types of motor skills.

Totally true. IXL and Khan are cheap/free and don't require parents to drive. So this is the lazy parent method of occupying idle hands/minds. They do sports and music. I wholeheartedly agree that volunteering is a good use of time...just don't always have time to facilitate it (kids cannot drive yet).

[Anonymous]

DCUM is so great for sweeping generalizations!

Everyone thinks that an Indian kid who is a high achiever is not being socialized.

My experience has been that our high performing Indian kids have grown up with tons of socializing , attending and throwing all types of parties and learning the rules of hospitality at home.

They have been born into a community of family and friends and social behavior and conduct is instilled in them from birth. I find it is the Americans who are not socialized properly nor do they have the a sense of hospitality in them.

I have gone to Italian, Greek, Latin, African, Asian, Middle Eastern families and each one of them know how to be welcoming and hospitable. Their children know how to greet and address the guests. They know how to share their toys, they know how to include everyone!

I have yet to see a shining example of "American socialization" that I would want to have my kids emulate.


The irony in this post is astounding. "Everyone" does not think that a high achieving Indian child is not being socialized. You have made a huge generalization from a random, rude comment. Saying that Americans are not socialized properly or do not have a sense of hospitality is also a huge generalization about Americans.

The truth is that someone can disagree with your views on tutoring and the HGC program AND still be a good person.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We didn't do test prep for HGC -- I agree with PPs that that seems counterproductive to get my kids into a program they would need to be coached into. But they've willingly taken on the extra challenge of the HGC because they knew they were not challenged before, and at some level they themselves didn't want to continue to coast. Plus the kids that got in ended up being their kind of kids -- the kind of nerdy kids that recite random scientific facts long past the point when you've stopped listening, talk about the latest Cosmos episode and have no clue what else is on TV, and don't tease each other for caring about school. If my kids hadn't gotten in, I would have taken that to mean they were not the ones most desperately in need of more challenge. In some high-performing clusters, the top 2-3% may be even more in need of further challenge than the top 2-3% in another cluster, but I'm not really sure what to do about that -- allocate additional spots by cluster based on county-wide test scores? Imagine the hue and cry about increasing HGC spots in only certain clusters...that would not help the original concern about diversity, IMHO.

I don't think any kid likes extra drills -- my Asian kids don't, but they've been raised (as were we) to understand that additional enrichment is going to be a part of their lives, so they do it. In our case, our main reason for having them do things like IXL or Khan Academy isn't because we think the curriculum is lacking, or because we think it is important to keep them competitive with others. Mainly, it's to give them things to do that aren't video games or stupid TV shows. Our kids are otherwise laughably unscheduled.

This is the best reason I have read anywhere on DCUM for a reason to send a kid to academic tutoring (other than for needing extra help). But it seems like there could be better activities to send them to rather than academic tutoring. Add'l sports, music, even volunteering?

Actually, playing some video games (not violent ones) may help a kids' fine motor skills. Not saying we should let kids play electronics all day, but that is one side benefit. I think there was an article some time ago about how they found that surgeons and/or fighter pilots that played more computer games when they were yonger were better at some of the skills that required these types of motor skills.

Totally true. IXL and Khan are cheap/free and don't require parents to drive. So this is the lazy parent method of occupying idle hands/minds. They do sports and music. I wholeheartedly agree that volunteering is a good use of time...just don't always have time to facilitate it (kids cannot drive yet).

Are these online tutoring? OK, I admit, while I don't send my kids to after school tutoring, I do let them play math games and such online. Does that count as after school tutoring?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We didn't do test prep for HGC -- I agree with PPs that that seems counterproductive to get my kids into a program they would need to be coached into. But they've willingly taken on the extra challenge of the HGC because they knew they were not challenged before, and at some level they themselves didn't want to continue to coast. Plus the kids that got in ended up being their kind of kids -- the kind of nerdy kids that recite random scientific facts long past the point when you've stopped listening, talk about the latest Cosmos episode and have no clue what else is on TV, and don't tease each other for caring about school. If my kids hadn't gotten in, I would have taken that to mean they were not the ones most desperately in need of more challenge. In some high-performing clusters, the top 2-3% may be even more in need of further challenge than the top 2-3% in another cluster, but I'm not really sure what to do about that -- allocate additional spots by cluster based on county-wide test scores? Imagine the hue and cry about increasing HGC spots in only certain clusters...that would not help the original concern about diversity, IMHO.

I don't think any kid likes extra drills -- my Asian kids don't, but they've been raised (as were we) to understand that additional enrichment is going to be a part of their lives, so they do it. In our case, our main reason for having them do things like IXL or Khan Academy isn't because we think the curriculum is lacking, or because we think it is important to keep them competitive with others. Mainly, it's to give them things to do that aren't video games or stupid TV shows. Our kids are otherwise laughably unscheduled.

This is the best reason I have read anywhere on DCUM for a reason to send a kid to academic tutoring (other than for needing extra help). But it seems like there could be better activities to send them to rather than academic tutoring. Add'l sports, music, even volunteering?

Actually, playing some video games (not violent ones) may help a kids' fine motor skills. Not saying we should let kids play electronics all day, but that is one side benefit. I think there was an article some time ago about how they found that surgeons and/or fighter pilots that played more computer games when they were yonger were better at some of the skills that required these types of motor skills.

Totally true. IXL and Khan are cheap/free and don't require parents to drive. So this is the lazy parent method of occupying idle hands/minds. They do sports and music. I wholeheartedly agree that volunteering is a good use of time...just don't always have time to facilitate it (kids cannot drive yet).

Are these online tutoring? OK, I admit, while I don't send my kids to after school tutoring, I do let them play math games and such online. Does that count as after school tutoring?

I don't count it as tutoring, since they do it on their own with no supervision, but I suppose it can be called after school enrichment.