Any Jews having a tough time with circumcision?

[Anonymous]

I know that this is not exactly what you are getting at, butI am extremely bothered by all the negativity. It is intrusive and disrespectful while masquerading as a free-to-be-you-and-me mentality.

1. The people who say we are mutilating our children's genitals and use the term "intact" bother me immensely. My child is not incomplete in some way because he is circumcised. your kid is not circumcised, he is not "intact".

2. The people who say that we should leave the child to grow up and make his own decision. This makes no sense to me. What other decisions should we leave to our child? Is he allowed to hit his friends? Can he just stay awake all night watching movies? Decide what he wants to eat even if it is a 100% sugar diet? No! We are the parents. We decide things for our children all the time and yes a lot of them are permanent and last throughout their lives. We get to raise our children how we choose. that means we can discipline, form family traditions, celebrate holidays and circumcise our sons.

I have to ask those people who say we should let our children grow up and decide what religion to be if they force Christmas presents on their children before they are 18?

3. I did not dwell on the health benefits or the risks. We are Jewish and we had a bris and circumcised our son. I fully support parents making decisions for their children. And I expect everyone else to butt out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am not in any way trivializing female mutilation, but suggesting that you consider it in the same way as male mutilation.

Here's another article that I suggest you read in its entirety. I used to agree with you until I read up more and better understood the cultural background behind female circumcision and realized that it is very similar to cutting boys.

http://joseph4gi.blogspot.com/2011/06/circumcision-is-child-abuse-picture.html

Why exactly would I consider slicing off the labia and clitoris, often followed by sewing up the vaginal opening the same as removing a foreskin on a penis? Explain that to me. I'm not talking about the cultural background - at all. I'm talking about the severity of the procedure that you are trivializing.

Seriously, Google some images of circumcised girls and and then get back to me. Aside from the horror of seeing a mutilated vulva and the blood that goes with removing the flesh of the labia, you'll also note that FGM is typically performed on girls older than 5 (markedly different than male circumcision in most cultures). Study it - no not just reading a few anti male circumcision articles. But study FGM and then maybe you'll realize how A) insanely offensive the comparison is between male circumcision and FGM and B) how devastating FGM can be for a woman's health, never mind her sexuality (unlike male circumcision). There is NO comparison. Or, to put it another way, to say that there is similarities is to compare a cut to an amputation.

Again, please read this: http://joseph4gi.blogspot.com/2011/06/circumcision-is-child-abuse-picture.html I think you will find it enlightening. When you've read it I'd be very interested to hear your views.

Again, you fail to explain how exactly the two procedures compare beyond their cultural roots. Stop referring me to some blog and speak for yourself. I am very curious how you can legitimately compare the two in terms of the devastation and danger they present. You don't seem well informed about FGM and how dangerous and detrimental it is to women's health - it's not even comparable to male circumcision.

14:15 stop trying to reason with this nut. She wants to believe that removing a flap of foreskin is the same thing as slicing off a labia and clitoris, fine. She thinks that the millions of girls who, aside from the physical and emotional trauma of circumcision (usually performed without any anesthetic) then face increased risk of HIV, increased danger of death in childbirth, increased risk of UTIs and vaginal infections, not to mention complete eradication of their erogenous zones suffer in the same way as a newborn having his foreskin removed, fine. Don't bother with this nutter. These type of people don't care about facts. They are hysterics. And their whacky reasoning is hysterical, though simultaneously disturbing.

[Anonymous]

That's just not true. Some boys do die from circumcision. Google "death circumcision". What can happen is pretty horrifying. I wasn't willing to take that risk, so we didn't do it.

This website is anti circumcision, but links directly to autopsy reports of children who died after being circumcised. I'm all for people making their own informed choice. Telling others that boys don't bleed to death from circumcision is inaccurate and misleading.

Anonymous wrote:Women and girls die from complications of female circumcision .... Boys don't bleed to death because their foreskin is removed. Some of you lack perspective and information. You don't want to circumcise your sons, fine. But please stop with the ridiculous comparison to female circumcision. The roots of the practices may be similar, but that is where the similarities end. Incidentally, we will not be circumcizing our son, but in no way is it because I believe that it's akin in any way or form to female circumcision.

[Anonymous]

14:28 - here's the link: http://www.circumstitions.com/death.html

[Anonymous]

More links to documented deaths from circumcision or associated complications:
http://www.cirp.org/library/death/

[jindc]

...posting anti-practice web sites to prove your point doesn't prove your point. It's like quoting the CATO institute when you're trying to be non-paritsan on economics.
Find a reputable organization (AMA, ACOG, whatever) and quote that. Just like in college/grad school if you ever went and/or had to cite statistics to back up your argument(s).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Reading all of the recent circumcision debates...I mean threads...made me decide to post my own. The birth of our son is only a few more weeks away and I have been struggling with circumcision to no end. The only reason I would do it is because I am Jewish and plan to raise my son Jewish. My husband is not Jewish and was not born in the US so is not even circumcised himself. At the same time, he is allowing me to decide because of our collective decision to raise our son Jewish. I am not a very observant Jew -- I was raised Conservative but would now consider myself more Reform, if that -- but this seems to be one of those issues that even casual Jews agree on. I'm just wondering whether anyone is in the same boat and, if so, how you've made your decision.

Oh my, you are in a bad place if you start making your decisions based on no-knowing threads from DCUM. You realize this is an anonymous forum and people can spout whatever they want, making up their own facts as they go along? Whatever you decide, please don't decide it based on these stupid circumcision threads. FWIW, I - having read these threads - don't have an ounce of doubt and am going ahead with the decision to circ. But your decision shouldn't be made on what I - or anyone else here!! - does.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Reading all of the recent circumcision debates...I mean threads...made me decide to post my own. The birth of our son is only a few more weeks away and I have been struggling with circumcision to no end. The only reason I would do it is because I am Jewish and plan to raise my son Jewish. My husband is not Jewish and was not born in the US so is not even circumcised himself. At the same time, he is allowing me to decide because of our collective decision to raise our son Jewish. I am not a very observant Jew -- I was raised Conservative but would now consider myself more Reform, if that -- but this seems to be one of those issues that even casual Jews agree on. I'm just wondering whether anyone is in the same boat and, if so, how you've made your decision.

Oh my, you are in a bad place if you start making your decisions based on no-knowing threads from DCUM. You realize this is an anonymous forum and people can spout whatever they want, making up their own facts as they go along? Whatever you decide, please don't decide it based on these stupid circumcision threads. FWIW, I - having read these threads - don't have an ounce of doubt and am going ahead with the decision to circ. But your decision shouldn't be made on what I - or anyone else here!! - does.

Sorry, meant to type "no-nothing" threads, not "no-knowing"....

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Reading all of the recent circumcision debates...I mean threads...made me decide to post my own. The birth of our son is only a few more weeks away and I have been struggling with circumcision to no end. The only reason I would do it is because I am Jewish and plan to raise my son Jewish. My husband is not Jewish and was not born in the US so is not even circumcised himself. At the same time, he is allowing me to decide because of our collective decision to raise our son Jewish. I am not a very observant Jew -- I was raised Conservative but would now consider myself more Reform, if that -- but this seems to be one of those issues that even casual Jews agree on. I'm just wondering whether anyone is in the same boat and, if so, how you've made your decision.

Oh my, you are in a bad place if you start making your decisions based on no-knowing threads from DCUM. You realize this is an anonymous forum and people can spout whatever they want, making up their own facts as they go along? Whatever you decide, please don't decide it based on these stupid circumcision threads. FWIW, I - having read these threads - don't have an ounce of doubt and am going ahead with the decision to circ. But your decision shouldn't be made on what I - or anyone else here!! - does.

Sorry, meant to type "no-nothing" threads, not "no-knowing"....

...or did you perhaps mean "know-nothing"?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Reading all of the recent circumcision debates...I mean threads...made me decide to post my own. The birth of our son is only a few more weeks away and I have been struggling with circumcision to no end. The only reason I would do it is because I am Jewish and plan to raise my son Jewish. My husband is not Jewish and was not born in the US so is not even circumcised himself. At the same time, he is allowing me to decide because of our collective decision to raise our son Jewish. I am not a very observant Jew -- I was raised Conservative but would now consider myself more Reform, if that -- but this seems to be one of those issues that even casual Jews agree on. I'm just wondering whether anyone is in the same boat and, if so, how you've made your decision.

Oh my, you are in a bad place if you start making your decisions based on no-knowing threads from DCUM. You realize this is an anonymous forum and people can spout whatever they want, making up their own facts as they go along? Whatever you decide, please don't decide it based on these stupid circumcision threads. FWIW, I - having read these threads - don't have an ounce of doubt and am going ahead with the decision to circ. But your decision shouldn't be made on what I - or anyone else here!! - does.

Sorry, meant to type "no-nothing" threads, not "no-knowing"....

...or did you perhaps mean "know-nothing"?

Yes, very pregnant and no caffeine today. Thank you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am not in any way trivializing female mutilation, but suggesting that you consider it in the same way as male mutilation.

Here's another article that I suggest you read in its entirety. I used to agree with you until I read up more and better understood the cultural background behind female circumcision and realized that it is very similar to cutting boys.

http://joseph4gi.blogspot.com/2011/06/circumcision-is-child-abuse-picture.html

Why exactly would I consider slicing off the labia and clitoris, often followed by sewing up the vaginal opening the same as removing a foreskin on a penis? Explain that to me. I'm not talking about the cultural background - at all. I'm talking about the severity of the procedure that you are trivializing.

Seriously, Google some images of circumcised girls and and then get back to me. Aside from the horror of seeing a mutilated vulva and the blood that goes with removing the flesh of the labia, you'll also note that FGM is typically performed on girls older than 5 (markedly different than male circumcision in most cultures). Study it - no not just reading a few anti male circumcision articles. But study FGM and then maybe you'll realize how A) insanely offensive the comparison is between male circumcision and FGM and B) how devastating FGM can be for a woman's health, never mind her sexuality (unlike male circumcision). There is NO comparison. Or, to put it another way, to say that there is similarities is to compare a cut to an amputation.

Again, please read this: http://joseph4gi.blogspot.com/2011/06/circumcision-is-child-abuse-picture.html I think you will find it enlightening. When you've read it I'd be very interested to hear your views.

Again, you fail to explain how exactly the two procedures compare beyond their cultural roots. Stop referring me to some blog and speak for yourself. I am very curious how you can legitimately compare the two in terms of the devastation and danger they present. You don't seem well informed about FGM and how dangerous and detrimental it is to women's health - it's not even comparable to male circumcision.

14:15 stop trying to reason with this nut. She wants to believe that removing a flap of foreskin is the same thing as slicing off a labia and clitoris, fine. She thinks that the millions of girls who, aside from the physical and emotional trauma of circumcision (usually performed without any anesthetic) then face increased risk of HIV, increased danger of death in childbirth, increased risk of UTIs and vaginal infections, not to mention complete eradication of their erogenous zones suffer in the same way as a newborn having his foreskin removed, fine. Don't bother with this nutter. These type of people don't care about facts. They are hysterics. And their whacky reasoning is hysterical, though simultaneously disturbing.

You are name calling, which does not help your case. Worse, you are completely sticking your head in the sand about this issue. I cannot fathom why you are unwilling to 1) learn about the deaths that occur, yes in the US and yes every year, from routine male infant circumcision and 2) learn about the types of female genital mutilation that are in fact LESS invasive and LESS harmful than what we do to boys. Yet, they are still outlawed here in the US.

I will ask you this: are you opposed to a family imposing what is commonly known as a "ritual nick" (ie, not removing anything at all and not causing any permanent damage) on a baby girl's labia? Why or why not?

[Anonymous]

jindc wrote:I have a hard time believing when these people see a woman yell at her child on the metro to "shut the F up" that they give that woman their opinions. Same with people who text and drive with kids in the back seat. or completely igore their children while they have their faces deep in their iPhones. or anything else that's truly bad for a child's health and wellbeing. I'm just sure they do the same thing. Because I see it happen all the time and I'm still waiting for one of these "IT'S CHILD ABUSE!!!" people to stand up and say something.

It's the security of being anonymous on here that lets women so easily criticize other people's parenting regardless of the issue. It's pretty sad - feel passionately, fine. But get off your high horses and worry about things that really matter like poor water quality around the world, maternal death, etc. Sheesh.

You're exactly right it is anonymity that allows us to speak frankly, though some of us who disagree with you are not in any way trying to be inflammatory; we are just responding to the OP who said she's struggling with the decision.

As far as what you say about other types of child abuse. I mean, someone with their nose in their phone? Well, I probably don't know enough about their situation to determine whether or not this is a one-off thing or if they do it a lot. I don't see it as the same as, for example, striking your child with a fist. As for me, I don't like confrontation, I'm not really that bold, but I really do say something when I see a child being seriously mistreated even though I'm usually scared to. My mom used to slap me around all the time. I remember once a woman said "I'm saying this with as much kindness as I can muster. It is not right for you to strike your child in anger like that. You are wrong to hit her." Of course I got it even worse when I got home for "making that happen" but that statement of support from a stranger, just hearing another adult agree that it was WRONG stuck with me. So, speaking as that former kid, I encourage you to step outside your comfort zone and speak up the next time you see everyone else ignoring it.

And with circumcision, that's all any of us are trying to do here. Although I get that it is not something everyone will agree on, I can not help to think it is wrong to make that decision to do a painful procedure on your child without any good reason other than religion.

One more thing, I really reject the notion that we can only care about one thing at a time, or that we should all agree with your assessment that maternal death or water quality is a legitimate worry but it is not okay to worry about other things. By the way I like you and follow some of your posts and you have to understand that you need a thicker skin about parenting. One thing I agree with you on 100 percent? People WILL judge whatever you do so if you feel that strongly about this you just need to let my judgment and that of everyone else roll off your back. You also have to understand people have strong opinions on this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am not in any way trivializing female mutilation, but suggesting that you consider it in the same way as male mutilation.

Here's another article that I suggest you read in its entirety. I used to agree with you until I read up more and better understood the cultural background behind female circumcision and realized that it is very similar to cutting boys.

http://joseph4gi.blogspot.com/2011/06/circumcision-is-child-abuse-picture.html

Why exactly would I consider slicing off the labia and clitoris, often followed by sewing up the vaginal opening the same as removing a foreskin on a penis? Explain that to me. I'm not talking about the cultural background - at all. I'm talking about the severity of the procedure that you are trivializing.

Seriously, Google some images of circumcised girls and and then get back to me. Aside from the horror of seeing a mutilated vulva and the blood that goes with removing the flesh of the labia, you'll also note that FGM is typically performed on girls older than 5 (markedly different than male circumcision in most cultures). Study it - no not just reading a few anti male circumcision articles. But study FGM and then maybe you'll realize how A) insanely offensive the comparison is between male circumcision and FGM and B) how devastating FGM can be for a woman's health, never mind her sexuality (unlike male circumcision). There is NO comparison. Or, to put it another way, to say that there is similarities is to compare a cut to an amputation.

Again, please read this: http://joseph4gi.blogspot.com/2011/06/circumcision-is-child-abuse-picture.html I think you will find it enlightening. When you've read it I'd be very interested to hear your views.

Again, you fail to explain how exactly the two procedures compare beyond their cultural roots. Stop referring me to some blog and speak for yourself. I am very curious how you can legitimately compare the two in terms of the devastation and danger they present. You don't seem well informed about FGM and how dangerous and detrimental it is to women's health - it's not even comparable to male circumcision.

14:15 stop trying to reason with this nut. She wants to believe that removing a flap of foreskin is the same thing as slicing off a labia and clitoris, fine. She thinks that the millions of girls who, aside from the physical and emotional trauma of circumcision (usually performed without any anesthetic) then face increased risk of HIV, increased danger of death in childbirth, increased risk of UTIs and vaginal infections, not to mention complete eradication of their erogenous zones suffer in the same way as a newborn having his foreskin removed, fine. Don't bother with this nutter. These type of people don't care about facts. They are hysterics. And their whacky reasoning is hysterical, though simultaneously disturbing.

Let me state this again and state it clearly. Female circumcision is NOT ALWAYS about slicing off the clitoris. It is most commonly about cutting the clitoral hood, which is exactly the same as male circumcision and has exactly the same purpose as the foreskin. I am not minimizing it. I think it is a horrific tradition even in the more minimal form. However, I also believe that male circumcision is horrific. That is where we differ. You need to read up and understand the cultural background of them both and how female circumcision is COMMONLY performed in order to understand and that's why I suggest that you read that blog which I assume you haven't done. If you did read that or read thoroughly on the topic you would understand that there are vast differences in the way that female circumcision is performed AND that the justifications are commonly the same for boys or girls depending on which culture you are a part of.

[Anonymous]

jindc wrote:...posting anti-practice web sites to prove your point doesn't prove your point. It's like quoting the CATO institute when you're trying to be non-paritsan on economics.
Find a reputable organization (AMA, ACOG, whatever) and quote that. Just like in college/grad school if you ever went and/or had to cite statistics to back up your argument(s).

Not PP but:

"Are there any health benefits associated with circumcision?
Circumcised infants appear to have less risk of urinary tract infections than uncircumcised infants. The risk of urinary tract infection in both groups is low. It may help prevent cancer of the penis, a rare condition.
Some research suggests that circumcision may decrease the risk of a man getting human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) from an infected female partner. It is possible that circumcision may decrease the risk of passing HIV and other sexually transmitted diseases from an infected man to a female partner. At the present time, there is not enough information to recommend routine newborn circumcision for health reasons.
Are there any risks associated with circumcision?
Possible complications include bleeding, infection, and scarring. In rare cases, too much of the foreskin or not enough foreskin is removed. More surgery sometimes is needed to correct these problems."

My own OB very strongly recommended we not do it. He sent me to this site, which is opposed to circ, but is strongly-evidence based. My OB is a member of the organization.

http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcision.org/pdf/shortguide03-04.pdf

[jindc]

I definitely understand people's strong opinions on the issue, but....like religion - and specifically Christianity, many people who believe in it are convinced that if you DONT follow what they believe is right, you're doing it wrong. And this is, to me, a stupid issue where people are always going to scold you for believing in the other sise.

I also believe much or the arguments against it largely stem for a dislike of the fact that it's a non-Christian religious practice. I don't think people like that it's something Jews (and Muslims, though most people don't know they do it too) do. I've lived in DC for a long time and work in an "educated" environment where people have no idea what a Jew is.

If you don't want to do this to your child, don't. Don't assume that people who do aren't aware of science or medicine, or are guided purely by aesthetics. Nor do I think it's appropriate for someone to think another is a bad parent because they have made their own (educated) decision to do something. I don't think this one decision - like many other decisions made by parents - are really any business of anyone else, especially if they don't impact your family. Not vaccinating your child when it goes to the same day care as mine? My business. Your son having foreskin? What do I care? I truly don't get the obsession with this, or with the decision other people make for their own families. Especially when 99% of people here (maybe even 100%!) are very educated and well versed in parenting issues.

This is DC - everyone's an expert on everything.