Any Jews having a tough time with circumcision?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was raised Orthodox and consider my Jewish heritage and culture important, though I am not observant. DH is not Jewish, but is circumcised (as are a a good portion of non-Jewish men of our generation). I don't know yet if we are having a boy, but I feel very ambivalent about circumcision. DH is fine with it, since he is circumcised as are most of his non-Jewish friends, even though the ceremony seems strange - but he is not at all opposed. I know I will do it, because I don't feel strongly enough about it to make my family unhappy - my parents would be devastated if we did not circumcise a baby boy according to religious ritual. But I do agree with other posters who point out that at some point in the future we will all look back at this practice as barbaric and strange. Sure, we can justify it with the STD protection benefits, but that is NOT actually why we do it here in America; we do it either for religious reasons, or because it is considered "normal" in American culture. If you take a few steps back and think about it objectively - it is just straight weird and barbaric: we cut off a piece of little boys' penises! It may not be very painful to the infant, nor does it have lasting awful effects like female circumcision/genital mutilation. But it is still just as weird when you take a step back from the way it has been normalized in our culture.

Watch a video. That's all I ask. Watch a video of them doing it under even the most favorable scenarios, with anesthesia, etc. They really suffer. I agree with everything you say and it sounds really level-headed, but I just beg you, if you don't personally feel strongly about it, don't put your baby boy on the chopping block for something you agree is barbaric to please your family. You will need to establish your own way of parenting and it will involve upsetting your family at times. This won't be the first or last time you'll need to stand up for what you think is right.

Although I actually agree with the point about standing up for what you believe in as a parent, I totally disagree with the point about the baby really suffering. We had a bris for my son and not only did it take almost no time, he didn't even cry or seem to notice. Nor did he flinch during any of the aftercare. I felt far, far worse bringing him in for a routine blood draw, where I had to pin him down, screaming, because he wouldn't hold still enough to find a vein. Or using saline solution or a bulb to clear his nose. He exhibited far more signs of suffering during those activities than he did during his circumcision.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I know that this is not exactly what you are getting at, butI am extremely bothered by all the negativity. It is intrusive and disrespectful while masquerading as a free-to-be-you-and-me mentality.

1. The people who say we are mutilating our children's genitals and use the term "intact" bother me immensely. My child is not incomplete in some way because he is circumcised. your kid is not circumcised, he is not "intact".

2. The people who say that we should leave the child to grow up and make his own decision. This makes no sense to me. What other decisions should we leave to our child? Is he allowed to hit his friends? Can he just stay awake all night watching movies? Decide what he wants to eat even if it is a 100% sugar diet? No! We are the parents. We decide things for our children all the time and yes a lot of them are permanent and last throughout their lives. We get to raise our children how we choose. that means we can discipline, form family traditions, celebrate holidays and circumcise our sons.

I have to ask those people who say we should let our children grow up and decide what religion to be if they force Christmas presents on their children before they are 18?

3. I did not dwell on the health benefits or the risks. We are Jewish and we had a bris and circumcised our son. I fully support parents making decisions for their children. And I expect everyone else to butt out.

Tough if you don't like that term, which is simply accurate. Saying a boy is "not circumcised" assumes circumcision as the default, which it isn't.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was raised Orthodox and consider my Jewish heritage and culture important, though I am not observant. DH is not Jewish, but is circumcised (as are a a good portion of non-Jewish men of our generation). I don't know yet if we are having a boy, but I feel very ambivalent about circumcision. DH is fine with it, since he is circumcised as are most of his non-Jewish friends, even though the ceremony seems strange - but he is not at all opposed. I know I will do it, because I don't feel strongly enough about it to make my family unhappy - my parents would be devastated if we did not circumcise a baby boy according to religious ritual. But I do agree with other posters who point out that at some point in the future we will all look back at this practice as barbaric and strange. Sure, we can justify it with the STD protection benefits, but that is NOT actually why we do it here in America; we do it either for religious reasons, or because it is considered "normal" in American culture. If you take a few steps back and think about it objectively - it is just straight weird and barbaric: we cut off a piece of little boys' penises! It may not be very painful to the infant, nor does it have lasting awful effects like female circumcision/genital mutilation. But it is still just as weird when you take a step back from the way it has been normalized in our culture.

Watch a video. That's all I ask. Watch a video of them doing it under even the most favorable scenarios, with anesthesia, etc. They really suffer. I agree with everything you say and it sounds really level-headed, but I just beg you, if you don't personally feel strongly about it, don't put your baby boy on the chopping block for something you agree is barbaric to please your family. You will need to establish your own way of parenting and it will involve upsetting your family at times. This won't be the first or last time you'll need to stand up for what you think is right.

Although I actually agree with the point about standing up for what you believe in as a parent, I totally disagree with the point about the baby really suffering. We had a bris for my son and not only did it take almost no time, he didn't even cry or seem to notice. Nor did he flinch during any of the aftercare. I felt far, far worse bringing him in for a routine blood draw, where I had to pin him down, screaming, because he wouldn't hold still enough to find a vein. Or using saline solution or a bulb to clear his nose. He exhibited far more signs of suffering during those activities than he did during his circumcision.

+1

[Anonymous]

Wow! OP here. Haven't had a chance to check back on this thread until now and I see it has certainly gotten some attention.

It is unfortunate that the thread was hijacked by the general circumcision, female circumcision, FGM debate since that was not my intention in posting it. It was not intended to be a medical discussion either. We can all do our own research about the health aspects of the issue.

I was really looking for thoughts from other Jewish mothers on circumcising a son in line with religion/tradition/culture when 21st Century America seems to be moving away from it. So, thank you to those of you who actually addressed that.

I have read about bris shalom but it does not appear to be accepted by mainstream Jewish groups.

Among the Reform Jews on this board, I am curious as to whether you have a sense of how many uncircumcised boys there are within your synagogue or the community.

And for those who have wrestled with the same issue, I am curious how you've reconciled tradition versus the idea that something that may have been appropriate (and considered medically necessary for health reasons) hundreds of years ago may not be today. I suppose one of my hang-ups is that there are a number of old customs in living religions that I completely disagree with to the extent that I think don't think they should be permitted in secular society (I won't mention them here as it is sure to spark another debate). I am having a difficult time understanding how feeling this way about another religion's customs can be consistent with circumcising my son in line with my own religion.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Wow! OP here. Haven't had a chance to check back on this thread until now and I see it has certainly gotten some attention.

It is unfortunate that the thread was hijacked by the general circumcision, female circumcision, FGM debate since that was not my intention in posting it. It was not intended to be a medical discussion either. We can all do our own research about the health aspects of the issue.

I was really looking for thoughts from other Jewish mothers on circumcising a son in line with religion/tradition/culture when 21st Century America seems to be moving away from it. So, thank you to those of you who actually addressed that.

I have read about bris shalom but it does not appear to be accepted by mainstream Jewish groups.

Among the Reform Jews on this board, I am curious as to whether you have a sense of how many uncircumcised boys there are within your synagogue or the community.

And for those who have wrestled with the same issue, I am curious how you've reconciled tradition versus the idea that something that may have been appropriate (and considered medically necessary for health reasons) hundreds of years ago may not be today. I suppose one of my hang-ups is that there are a number of old customs in living religions that I completely disagree with to the extent that I think don't think they should be permitted in secular society (I won't mention them here as it is sure to spark another debate). I am having a difficult time understanding how feeling this way about another religion's customs can be consistent with circumcising my son in line with my own religion.

Have you tried talking with your rabbi or a rabbi? If you are wrestling to this extent you may want to see what a rabbi at a community you'd consider belonging to thinks. If Reform rabbis don't mind boys not being circumcised, and you really don't want to do it, that would seem to answer your question. On the other hand if they insist on it, you would have to really reconcile it with your beliefs. For me it's not something I feel strongly about, so the religious mandate trumps; but if I did feel strongly, I would certainly look for ways around it.

Also, regarding your thoughts on other religions -- I don't really understand why this has to play a role, other than in a general philosophical discussion. For example, there are aspects of other cultures I admire, but I am not living in them, so I will raise my kids as I was raised. If I were living in Japan, I'd probably raise them more in line with the general culture around me -- but I'm not. With religion, sometimes it is hard to see the reason for a practice unless you grew up with it or are living with it. So what may look crazy in another religion looks ok in your own because it's so familiar. All this to say, you really should do what you want to do, whatever that is. Don't feel guilty about circumcising if you want to do it; and don't feel guilty about not doing it if you don't want to. While I personally will do it if my baby is male, I certainly won't be looking down other kids' pants to see what their parents decided!

[Anonymous]

Thank you, 12:15 for such a thoughtful reply. I have not yet spoken to a rabbi (I'd been putting off committing to one synagogue until I had kids) but that is a good idea. I also appreciate your thoughts on customs from other religions.

[maxbiggy]

You have no right at all to permanently brand an unconsenting child's body for your own religious reasons. That's completely the opposite of freedom of religion. There are basically no benefits at all to circumcision and the negatives vastly outweight it. It became popularized because it prevented masturbation and reduced sexual pleasure (there's plenty of jewish literature on this). Then doctors realized they could make a ton of money off of it, so they started dong biased study after biased study fishing for medical reasons to justify doing it.

"Well I had my dick mutilated as a child. Instead of saving my child from it, I am going to mutilate their dick as well" <<logic not even once?

However jewish you want to be, you have no right at all to mutilate a child's genitals, removing an important erogenous zone from his body without any consent at all.

There is no other surgery performed that removes a healthy body part, that people claim is beneficial. Circumcision is the one apparent exception, according to american doctors. Do you think that's just by chance, or do you think it's because of money, biased studies, and retarded conclusions drawn by them for monetary purposes? Removing healthy body parts does NOT improve your health.

[Anonymous]

After reading this book, I decided I wouldn't circumcise my kids. It looks at questioning circumcision from a Jewish perspective and I found it very helpful.

Questioning Circumcision: A Jewish Perspective
http://www.amazon.com/Questioning-Circumcision-A-Jewish-Perspective/dp/0964489562/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1365901336&sr=8-2&keywords=jews+circumcision

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:After reading this book, I decided I wouldn't circumcise my kids. It looks at questioning circumcision from a Jewish perspective and I found it very helpful.

Questioning Circumcision: A Jewish Perspective
http://www.amazon.com/Questioning-Circumcision-A-Jewish-Perspective/dp/0964489562/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1365901336&sr=8-2&keywords=jews+circumcision

Not the PP who quoted this, but I second this book. Even the comments there (positive and negative) might be helpful to OP, they are obviously from other Jewish parents and reflect common views.

[Anonymous]

maxbiggy wrote:You have no right at all to permanently brand an unconsenting child's body for your own religious reasons. That's completely the opposite of freedom of religion. There are basically no benefits at all to circumcision and the negatives vastly outweight it. It became popularized because it prevented masturbation and reduced sexual pleasure (there's plenty of jewish literature on this). Then doctors realized they could make a ton of money off of it, so they started dong biased study after biased study fishing for medical reasons to justify doing it.

"Well I had my dick mutilated as a child. Instead of saving my child from it, I am going to mutilate their dick as well" <<logic not even once?

However jewish you want to be, you have no right at all to mutilate a child's genitals, removing an important erogenous zone from his body without any consent at all.

There is no other surgery performed that removes a healthy body part, that people claim is beneficial. Circumcision is the one apparent exception, according to american doctors. Do you think that's just by chance, or do you think it's because of money, biased studies, and retarded conclusions drawn by them for monetary purposes? Removing healthy body parts does NOT improve your health.

What is the Jewish literature to which you are referring. I'd like to look it up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was raised Orthodox and consider my Jewish heritage and culture important, though I am not observant. DH is not Jewish, but is circumcised (as are a a good portion of non-Jewish men of our generation). I don't know yet if we are having a boy, but I feel very ambivalent about circumcision. DH is fine with it, since he is circumcised as are most of his non-Jewish friends, even though the ceremony seems strange - but he is not at all opposed. I know I will do it, because I don't feel strongly enough about it to make my family unhappy - my parents would be devastated if we did not circumcise a baby boy according to religious ritual. But I do agree with other posters who point out that at some point in the future we will all look back at this practice as barbaric and strange. Sure, we can justify it with the STD protection benefits, but that is NOT actually why we do it here in America; we do it either for religious reasons, or because it is considered "normal" in American culture. If you take a few steps back and think about it objectively - it is just straight weird and barbaric: we cut off a piece of little boys' penises! It may not be very painful to the infant, nor does it have lasting awful effects like female circumcision/genital mutilation. But it is still just as weird when you take a step back from the way it has been normalized in our culture.

Watch a video. That's all I ask. Watch a video of them doing it under even the most favorable scenarios, with anesthesia, etc. They really suffer. I agree with everything you say and it sounds really level-headed, but I just beg you, if you don't personally feel strongly about it, don't put your baby boy on the chopping block for something you agree is barbaric to please your family. You will need to establish your own way of parenting and it will involve upsetting your family at times. This won't be the first or last time you'll need to stand up for what you think is right.

I've got two other kids and married a non-Jewish guy. Don't worry - I'm all ABOUT upsetting my family. Don't need to watch a video; have been to many brises. Was raised Orthodox, remember? But don't need to upset my parents with this one; I am comfortable with American doctors' research and competence in this area to trust that my baby would be fine. Will totally be ashamed before the aliens who arrive in their spaceship to watch the bris, though.

I like your first post and am glad there are more Jews who recognize the practice as barbaric, but I really can't understand why you would go ahead with circumcision if you really feel the way you say you do, and if you are usually not squeamish about upsetting your family. Very odd.

You know, I may actually do some more thinking about it and come to a different conclusion. I hadn't thought enough about it to form a really strong opinion, which is why I initially said I'd probably just go ahead with it - because it wasn't something I felt strongly about (I try not to upset my parents unless it is something I feel very strongly about!). Though I don't really feel roped into the hysteria on either side of this question, I do believe I ought to give it more thought. (No need to try to convince me further - I hear the arguments, and need to think about them.)

[Anonymous]

maxbiggy wrote:You have no right at all to permanently brand an unconsenting child's body for your own religious reasons. That's completely the opposite of freedom of religion. There are basically no benefits at all to circumcision and the negatives vastly outweight it. It became popularized because it prevented masturbation and reduced sexual pleasure (there's plenty of jewish literature on this). Then doctors realized they could make a ton of money off of it, so they started dong biased study after biased study fishing for medical reasons to justify doing it.

"Well I had my dick mutilated as a child. Instead of saving my child from it, I am going to mutilate their dick as well" <<logic not even once?

However jewish you want to be, you have no right at all to mutilate a child's genitals, removing an important erogenous zone from his body without any consent at all.

There is no other surgery performed that removes a healthy body part, that people claim is beneficial. Circumcision is the one apparent exception, according to american doctors. Do you think that's just by chance, or do you think it's because of money, biased studies, and retarded conclusions drawn by them for monetary purposes? Removing healthy body parts does NOT improve your health.

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzz