Steubenville Rape Case: What You Haven't Heard-What lessons do you take from this re:your own boys?

[Anonymous]

I wouldn't draw particular lessons about sex or drinking from this for my son. It seems to me that this touches on even more fundamental issues, about what kind of person you are and how you treat other people. I would hope I never have to teach my son "don't have sex with people who are unconscious", because this would emerge organically from the basic value system I have sought to instill in him.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Why have the names of all involved been released? Aren't the boys accused here minors? And the victim? Seems like all of their names shouldn't be out there. Any attorneys care to educate me on the law?

A lot of names (of a group calling themselves the Rape Crew) were made public by an anonymous vigilante group called Knight Sec. The also took pictures of some of these kids' facebook pages where they talked about the girl. The whole thing has been a very public affair from early on.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What about the racial component to this story? I have a hard time believing that doesn't come into play.

And how did these kids get all this alcohol?? Why isn't anybody being held responsible? Where we're the parents while these parties were being held?

What is the racial component?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What kind of parent raises a girl like this. This would be my worse nightmare for a daughter. To be "that" girl. Yes, she was raped, but getting this sort of thing happening to her repeatedly over the summer at a series of parties? Come on.

It doesn't sound like you have read the details that have been published. None of us knows for sure what really happened but the trial is about what happened on one night, not repeatedly over a summer, to a girl who may have been drugged and then raped. We may never know all the despicable details but what I have seen (the Michael Nodianos video, copies of instant messages about the girl, and so on) is enough to know that she was horribly mistreated.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why is this buried in the older kids forum? My similar post was deleted from general parenting and I"m pissed.

This is a lesson and something all parents should pay attention to. I'm devastated reading what happened to that poor girl. Not just the rape, but those boys saying "i'll give you 3 bucks to urinate on her" and so on. You don't start raising boys to be decent human beings when they are 10 or 12 or 14 or 16. You don't wait until they are teenagers to notice that they are turning into little monsters.

And with our girls, you don't wait until they are older to start instilling some caution in them. And, this is NOT victim blaming, it's self preservation. She should not have been raped no matter how drunk she'd gotten. But, drinking that much was dangerous. It made her unaware of her surroundings and vulnerable to any sort of crime (mugging, rape) not to mention alcohol poisoning, death from drunk driving, etc.

I drank too much in college, I let myself become vulnerable in similar ways and I'm so lucky that nothing that bad ever happened. How can we teach our girls to better protect themselves?

And how do we avoid raising monsters? How does that happen? I'm sure each of those boys were lovely little babies just like I have. Mine is still at home with me. Still crawls into my bed at night, still wants to please his mama. Still the sweetest creature I know. Were these boys sweet creatures once? What happened?

How is this an older kids issue exclusively?

I cannot believe you are so upset about your thread being moved / deleted. Seriously.

I can't believe you care so much about what I care about. Seriously, that's a bit odd.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I recently had a conversation with my 15yo about rape and consent, based on this letter:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/ask-amy-teen-victim-looks-for-answers/2013/02/15/e6791910-7793-11e2-8f84-3e4b513b1a13_story.html

I read him the letter and asked him if he thought it was rape and he said yes. We then talked about confusing signals, how any confusion means no, and how anyone influenced by drugs/alcohol is not capable of saying yes. We also talked about how it is not just a question of a girl not saying "no," that she must fully and clearly say YES. Anything less = back off.

It came up again last night for some reason, and we talked about how if you are in a situation where, like this girl, you *cannot* speak up and be clear, and are uncomfortable doing so, well then you should not be intimate with that person to begin with - that discomfort like that is a signal that you should not be in that situation.

My issue with this is that the boy was 19 and the girl was 16. I agree that it was rape. But, what if the boy was also 16? Would that make a difference?

The girl wanted to make out. Isn't it possible, in a similar situation, a girl could change her mind? She feels good and decides that she does want to have sex? She did NOT say no. Would it still be as clear cut that it was rape if the boy and girl were both 16?

My best friend in college was wrongly accused of sexual assault. The charges were completely cleared, but like a PP said, the stigma of being accused follows you around everywhere. Especially in a small town.

This is an interesting discussion and I struggle with the best approach. I have sons and a daughter and see both sides of this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I recently had a conversation with my 15yo about rape and consent, based on this letter:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/ask-amy-teen-victim-looks-for-answers/2013/02/15/e6791910-7793-11e2-8f84-3e4b513b1a13_story.html

I read him the letter and asked him if he thought it was rape and he said yes. We then talked about confusing signals, how any confusion means no, and how anyone influenced by drugs/alcohol is not capable of saying yes. We also talked about how it is not just a question of a girl not saying "no," that she must fully and clearly say YES. Anything less = back off.

It came up again last night for some reason, and we talked about how if you are in a situation where, like this girl, you *cannot* speak up and be clear, and are uncomfortable doing so, well then you should not be intimate with that person to begin with - that discomfort like that is a signal that you should not be in that situation.

My issue with this is that the boy was 19 and the girl was 16. I agree that it was rape. But, what if the boy was also 16? Would that make a difference?

The girl wanted to make out. Isn't it possible, in a similar situation, a girl could change her mind? She feels good and decides that she does want to have sex? She did NOT say no. Would it still be as clear cut that it was rape if the boy and girl were both 16?

My best friend in college was wrongly accused of sexual assault. The charges were completely cleared, but like a PP said, the stigma of being accused follows you around everywhere. Especially in a small town.

This is an interesting discussion and I struggle with the best approach. I have sons and a daughter and see both sides of this.

PP who posted that here.

I think if he had been 16, things might have been different. Three years' difference at those ages is significant - had they been the same age, she might have felt more comfortable speaking up. At 19, he is held to an adult standard.

She should have spoken up, no question - but the fact remains that she said at the outset that she didn't want to "go all the way" and he proceeded despite that. IMO, that fact combined with the age difference (and the fact that she was a minor) made this a more clear-cut rape than it otherwise might have been.

I don't think these fuzzy situations are unusual, which is why I talked to my son about it. A horny teenager who wants to believe that she is ok proceeding (despite her statement to the contrary and her lack of a clear yes) may make choices that have terrible consequences. That's why I'm telling my son that consent has to be crystal-clear and not understood, potentially erroneously, from a (mis)reading of confusing signals.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:http://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/281607.page#3109824

This is the link to the entire background.

This young lady was allegedly given a date rape drug in one of the alcoholic drinks she willingly drank. She had previously broke up with the Prosecutor's son and some view the Steubenville Big Red football team members actions as trying to extract justice on her. They also had a nickname they were proud of 'The Rape Crew." A football coach allegedly had an apartment where the Rape Crew brought their dates. (sidebar - Another victim has stepped forward.)

The prosecutor dissauded the victim and her mom from pressing charges despite having a flash drive full of videos, tweets etc. She was transported unconscious from party to party, sodomized, raped, peed on and dumped in a lawn for dead. One of the parties was held at the prosecutor's home, the same prosecutor who dissauded the victim and her mom from pressing charges despise holding a flip drive of evidence from social media.


OP, my DC understands this is blatant criminal behavior.

I hadn't heard all this. Ugh. Made so much worse to know that adults were involved.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I have two sons. I learned nothing from this example. I will teach them that if a woman wants to be intimate with you, she'll still want to be when sober. If she doesn't want to when she's sober than you surely don't want to when she's drunk.

As the mother of daughters, I thank you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have two sons. I learned nothing from this example. I will teach them that if a woman wants to be intimate with you, she'll still want to be when sober. If she doesn't want to when she's sober than you surely don't want to when she's drunk.

As the mother of daughters, I thank you.

Well, as the mother of daughters, I hope you will also do your part and tell your daughters not to throw themselves at my sons. And to please, please not send provocative pictures and texts.

[Anonymous]

PP here. I say that because there are some amazingly forward and aggressive middle school and high school girls around. Not saying that the boys should not be gel accountable for their actions, just that girls do as well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have two sons. I learned nothing from this example. I will teach them that if a woman wants to be intimate with you, she'll still want to be when sober. If she doesn't want to when she's sober than you surely don't want to when she's drunk.

As the mother of daughters, I thank you.

Well, as the mother of daughters, I hope you will also do your part and tell your daughters not to throw themselves at my sons. And to please, please not send provocative pictures and texts.

That's an unequivocally moronic and shitty thing to say.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have two sons. I learned nothing from this example. I will teach them that if a woman wants to be intimate with you, she'll still want to be when sober. If she doesn't want to when she's sober than you surely don't want to when she's drunk.

As the mother of daughters, I thank you.

Well, as the mother of daughters, I hope you will also do your part and tell your daughters not to throw themselves at my sons. And to please, please not send provocative pictures and texts.

That's an unequivocally moronic and shitty thing to say.

Why? What do you mean?

The girls are 'always' the victims? You should see some of the texts/pictures thee girls are sending. Really. It might be worth discussing with your daughters why they might not want to send such pictures.

[Anonymous]

Why do you assume we haven't already tried to instill in our daughters the self respect and self worth to refuse to send inappropriate texts/picutres?

Does sending these pictures and texts equal consent?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Why do you assume we haven't already tried to instill in our daughters the self respect and self worth to refuse to send inappropriate texts/picutres?

Does sending these pictures and texts equal consent?

Exactly!

And sending out inappropriate texts/pictures has little to nothing to do with rape. Those are completely separate issues. A girl that sends inappropriate texts still needs to be a willing participant in any sexual encounter!