Steubenville Rape Case: What You Haven't Heard-What lessons do you take from this re:your own boys?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I recently had a conversation with my 15yo about rape and consent, based on this letter:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/ask-amy-teen-victim-looks-for-answers/2013/02/15/e6791910-7793-11e2-8f84-3e4b513b1a13_story.html

I read him the letter and asked him if he thought it was rape and he said yes. We then talked about confusing signals, how any confusion means no, and how anyone influenced by drugs/alcohol is not capable of saying yes. We also talked about how it is not just a question of a girl not saying "no," that she must fully and clearly say YES. Anything less = back off.
It came up again last night for some reason, and we talked about how if you are in a situation where, like this girl, you *cannot* speak up and be clear, and are uncomfortable doing so, well then you should not be intimate with that person to begin with - that discomfort like that is a signal that you should not be in that situation.

THANK YOU. Why do we assume, in this country, that a woman's default state is "I clearly want to bone that guy"? And that is something that needs to be overcome by her saying "no"? The burden shouldn't be on the woman to disprove that she wanted to fuck some guy. The burden should be on the guy to establish that she affirmatively wants to have sex with him.

I suppose that whole "innocent until proven guilty" thing has got to go, then.

PP here -- please explain how what I wrote challenges the presumption of innocence? We don't require mugging victims to prove that they didn't want to give the thief their money. We don't require assault victims to prove that they weren't attacking the accused and that therefore the assault wasn't self-defense. Victim consent should be an affirmative defense, like self defense, and the burden should be on the accused to establish it.

If victim consent becomes an affirmative defense, rather than an element of the offense, you have basically criminalized all sex. What are the elements of the rape offense at that point? Having sex. That's all.

+1.

I agree with the posters who say that we should educate our sons on this issue....about participating something like this and witnessing something like this. No one should be treated like this. And I would be beyond horrified if my sons were anywhere near this.

However, as the mother of sons (and daughters), making consent an affirmative defense and requiring proof of consent goes too far the other way. At my youngest DS's HS, there have been 2 false allegations of sexual contact (groping) this school year alone. I won't go into the backstory, but in both cases, the girls were angry at being spurned by the boys. And let's face it, there is a stigma connected with even being accused of rape. So it would be equally horrifying to me to see a boy stigmatized becase a girl knew she could damage him most by falsely accusing him. And there are recent cases in the news of it happening. Physical evidence of rape is becoming increasingly easier to get (DNA, rape kits, etc.) But how does one prove consent - have her sign a contract beforehand?

And how does one prove that she didn't want to have sex? Have him sign a statement that she didn't want to have sex? DNA just shows that sex occurred. Do we really want to require women to resist to the point of physical harm? Do we want to teach our boys that it's ok to coerce/threaten a girl into having sex even if she doesn't want to up until you have to hurt her? THat if you just wait until that girl who doesn't like you gets drunk enough, maybe you can nail her? Yes, there is a significant stigma to false accusations, but I don't think you can compare the stigma of being falsely accused to the stigma of being sexually assaulted, either in severity or in frequency.

PP here. YOu are taking the argument far afield. We were talking about flipping the burden of proof in a prosecution. I already agreed on the rest of the points. I have both sons and daughters and we have talked about this case at length in our home. The boys who did this and witnessed this should be prosecuted.

Why does there have to be a comparison? Is that even the point? IMO, both stigmas are equally as horrible and damaging for the person that it applies to.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I recently had a conversation with my 15yo about rape and consent, based on this letter:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/ask-amy-teen-victim-looks-for-answers/2013/02/15/e6791910-7793-11e2-8f84-3e4b513b1a13_story.html

I read him the letter and asked him if he thought it was rape and he said yes. We then talked about confusing signals, how any confusion means no, and how anyone influenced by drugs/alcohol is not capable of saying yes. We also talked about how it is not just a question of a girl not saying "no," that she must fully and clearly say YES. Anything less = back off.
It came up again last night for some reason, and we talked about how if you are in a situation where, like this girl, you *cannot* speak up and be clear, and are uncomfortable doing so, well then you should not be intimate with that person to begin with - that discomfort like that is a signal that you should not be in that situation.

THANK YOU. Why do we assume, in this country, that a woman's default state is "I clearly want to bone that guy"? And that is something that needs to be overcome by her saying "no"? The burden shouldn't be on the woman to disprove that she wanted to fuck some guy. The burden should be on the guy to establish that she affirmatively wants to have sex with him.

I suppose that whole "innocent until proven guilty" thing has got to go, then.

PP here -- please explain how what I wrote challenges the presumption of innocence? We don't require mugging victims to prove that they didn't want to give the thief their money. We don't require assault victims to prove that they weren't attacking the accused and that therefore the assault wasn't self-defense. Victim consent should be an affirmative defense, like self defense, and the burden should be on the accused to establish it.

If victim consent becomes an affirmative defense, rather than an element of the offense, you have basically criminalized all sex. What are the elements of the rape offense at that point? Having sex. That's all.

+1.

I agree with the posters who say that we should educate our sons on this issue....about participating something like this and witnessing something like this. No one should be treated like this. And I would be beyond horrified if my sons were anywhere near this.

However, as the mother of sons (and daughters), making consent an affirmative defense and requiring proof of consent goes too far the other way. At my youngest DS's HS, there have been 2 false allegations of sexual contact (groping) this school year alone. I won't go into the backstory, but in both cases, the girls were angry at being spurned by the boys. And let's face it, there is a stigma connected with even being accused of rape. So it would be equally horrifying to me to see a boy stigmatized becase a girl knew she could damage him most by falsely accusing him. And there are recent cases in the news of it happening. Physical evidence of rape is becoming increasingly easier to get (DNA, rape kits, etc.) But how does one prove consent - have her sign a contract beforehand?

And how does one prove that she didn't want to have sex? Have him sign a statement that she didn't want to have sex? DNA just shows that sex occurred. Do we really want to require women to resist to the point of physical harm? Do we want to teach our boys that it's ok to coerce/threaten a girl into having sex even if she doesn't want to up until you have to hurt her? THat if you just wait until that girl who doesn't like you gets drunk enough, maybe you can nail her? Yes, there is a significant stigma to false accusations, but I don't think you can compare the stigma of being falsely accused to the stigma of being sexually assaulted, either in severity or in frequency.

PP here. YOu are taking the argument far afield. We were talking about flipping the burden of proof in a prosecution. I already agreed on the rest of the points. I have both sons and daughters and we have talked about this case at length in our home. The boys who did this and witnessed this should be prosecuted.

Why does there have to be a comparison? Is that even the point? IMO, both stigmas are equally as horrible and damaging for the person that it applies to.

I didn't raise the issue of stigma -- I was simply responding to it. While I agree that this doesn't need to devolve into a "who's harmed more" contest, I disagree that the stigmas are equal. But I'm fine just leaving it at that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What kind of parent raises a girl like this. This would be my worse nightmare for a daughter. To be "that" girl. Yes, she was raped, but getting this sort of thing happening to her repeatedly over the summer at a series of parties? Come on.

The victim was allegedly given a date rape drug in her drink. This could happen to anyone, even your daughter.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What kind of parent raises a girl like this. This would be my worse nightmare for a daughter. To be "that" girl. Yes, she was raped, but getting this sort of thing happening to her repeatedly over the summer at a series of parties? Come on.

The victim was allegedly given a date rape drug in her drink. This could happen to anyone, even your daughter.

Other things to tell our teens: Never leave your drink unattended. If you go to the bathroom, take it with you, or get a new one when you return.

Along the same lines, a red cup is a red cup - you can have a soft drink in yours with no alcohol and no one will know. Just because your friends have alcohol in theirs doesn't mean you must have it in yours.

PSA: The PEP classes about parenting teens and talking to teens about these topics are terrific.

[Anonymous]

^^^Also: Pour your own drink. Do not accept drinks poured by others.

I'm not blaming the victim here. Just making suggestions for talking to our kids about these things.

[Anonymous]

Instead of teaching girls to protect their drinks, why can't we teach boys not to put poison in them?

http://colorlines.com/archives/2013/03/5_ways_we_can_teach_men_not_to_rape.html

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Instead of teaching girls to protect their drinks, why can't we teach boys not to put poison in them?

http://colorlines.com/archives/2013/03/5_ways_we_can_teach_men_not_to_rape.html

Why choose? Let's do both.

[Anonymous]

I would teach my son (if I had one) and my daughter that you should never be inebriated to the point where your judgment is clouded or you cannot make good decisions. I'm sure a lot of guys have had sex with women because neither of them was in a position to clearly think "does this person really want to have sex?" I think we have a double standard where a lot is expected of drunk guys and maybe it's time to rethink our entire binge drinking teen/college culture.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Instead of teaching girls to protect their drinks, why can't we teach boys not to put poison in them?

http://colorlines.com/archives/2013/03/5_ways_we_can_teach_men_not_to_rape.html

I repeat: I'm not blaming the victim. I am suggesting basic safety measures that teens (boys and girls) should employ, much like e.g. telling our kids not to walk home alone from Metro at 2AM.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I would teach my son (if I had one) and my daughter that you should never be inebriated to the point where your judgment is clouded or you cannot make good decisions. I'm sure a lot of guys have had sex with women because neither of them was in a position to clearly think "does this person really want to have sex?" I think we have a double standard where a lot is expected of drunk guys and maybe it's time to rethink our entire binge drinking teen/college culture.

Eh. I agree that we need to address our binge-drinking teen/college culture, and I agree that all teens need to be taught that they need to be responsible regarding when/where/how much they drink. However, when it comes down to it, I'm much more comfortable telling my son "don't rape, even if you're drunk" than telling my daughter "it's your job to make sure you don't get raped, even if you're drunk."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Instead of teaching girls to protect their drinks, why can't we teach boys not to put poison in them?

http://colorlines.com/archives/2013/03/5_ways_we_can_teach_men_not_to_rape.html

Why choose? Let's do both.

+1000

People are setting this up to be some us vs. them type of thing. Whatever best protects my daughters (and sons) is something I will gladly do. But one of my main messages to all my kids is to be vigilant and protect yourself.

Honestly, when my kids go to parties, I tell them all the same thing, including, don't set your drink down, do not take a drink from anyone, do not go to parts of the venue that are isolated, etc. I tell them all the same thing - both the boys and the girls.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What kind of parent raises a girl like this. This would be my worse nightmare for a daughter. To be "that" girl. Yes, she was raped, but getting this sort of thing happening to her repeatedly over the summer at a series of parties? Come on.

She must not think very highly of herself, which is very sad.

The series of parties were allegedly all one night.

[Anonymous]

Why is this buried in the older kids forum? My similar post was deleted from general parenting and I"m pissed.

This is a lesson and something all parents should pay attention to. I'm devastated reading what happened to that poor girl. Not just the rape, but those boys saying "i'll give you 3 bucks to urinate on her" and so on. You don't start raising boys to be decent human beings when they are 10 or 12 or 14 or 16. You don't wait until they are teenagers to notice that they are turning into little monsters.

And with our girls, you don't wait until they are older to start instilling some caution in them. And, this is NOT victim blaming, it's self preservation. She should not have been raped no matter how drunk she'd gotten. But, drinking that much was dangerous. It made her unaware of her surroundings and vulnerable to any sort of crime (mugging, rape) not to mention alcohol poisoning, death from drunk driving, etc.

I drank too much in college, I let myself become vulnerable in similar ways and I'm so lucky that nothing that bad ever happened. How can we teach our girls to better protect themselves?

And how do we avoid raising monsters? How does that happen? I'm sure each of those boys were lovely little babies just like I have. Mine is still at home with me. Still crawls into my bed at night, still wants to please his mama. Still the sweetest creature I know. Were these boys sweet creatures once? What happened?

How is this an older kids issue exclusively?

[Anonymous]

13:51 here. Also, I don't mean to make "teaching caution" the domain exclusively of parents of girls. It was a mistake to put it that way. I would want to teach both my boys and girls not to get that drunk that you can't make decisions for yourself. To be careful you aren't date-raped. Even for boys, to be careful you don't get so drunk that your own judgment about whether or not a girl is impaired is impaired. (Not that i think these boys had any doubt about that).

We need to raise our children, boys and girls, to have more kindness, and more self respect. It starts when they are small.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Why is this buried in the older kids forum? My similar post was deleted from general parenting and I"m pissed.

This is a lesson and something all parents should pay attention to. I'm devastated reading what happened to that poor girl. Not just the rape, but those boys saying "i'll give you 3 bucks to urinate on her" and so on. You don't start raising boys to be decent human beings when they are 10 or 12 or 14 or 16. You don't wait until they are teenagers to notice that they are turning into little monsters.

And with our girls, you don't wait until they are older to start instilling some caution in them. And, this is NOT victim blaming, it's self preservation. She should not have been raped no matter how drunk she'd gotten. But, drinking that much was dangerous. It made her unaware of her surroundings and vulnerable to any sort of crime (mugging, rape) not to mention alcohol poisoning, death from drunk driving, etc.

I drank too much in college, I let myself become vulnerable in similar ways and I'm so lucky that nothing that bad ever happened. How can we teach our girls to better protect themselves?

And how do we avoid raising monsters? How does that happen? I'm sure each of those boys were lovely little babies just like I have. Mine is still at home with me. Still crawls into my bed at night, still wants to please his mama. Still the sweetest creature I know. Were these boys sweet creatures once? What happened?

How is this an older kids issue exclusively?

I cannot believe you are so upset about your thread being moved / deleted. Seriously.