SN/Gifted DD accused of cheating -- legal rights?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think you are letting your daughter off too easily. She knew she wasn't supposed to use that calculator which is why she showed it to the teacher. She just expected she would get special treatment and that the rules did not apply to her. Hmm wonder why that is?

You know that how?

My sons teacher said, "one more word and you will sit in the hallway." he said one more word because he wanted to sit in the hallway. That is how his brain works.

He did not understand the problem. He does not understand idioms, sarcasm, etc.

I believe she thought using a calculator but not using all the functions was not wrong. It's logical to me.

They should just do a retest.

Thank you for this post. It does clarify things for me. DD thinks so literally that she didn't understand that simply having the calculator in the classroom was wrong because it gave her the opportunity to cheat, even though she did not avail herself of that opportunity. Her mind does not understand nuance very easily. When I explained this to her, she still didn't really understand, since she is very honest. When she says she won't do something, she doesn't do it. This is one of her social issues. She does not understand that children often say one thing and do something else. That is a mystery to her, which is why she's socially behind her peers.

See, I don't view that as literal or linear thinking at all.

Literal and linear thinking is you were told to use a specific calculator. Using something else and trying to justify it is actually very creative thinking. Too creative as the case may be.

Frankly, I'm sorry you're in the situation, but given the record here that you describe, I sort of side with the school.

The peer review thing is odd, though.

[Anonymous]

My concern is that bringing my SN daughter before a panel of her peers is not an appropriate way of dealing with this infraction because of who my daughter is, her issues and needs. It will harm her irreparably, cause her to break down in front of her peers, humiliate, embarrass and damage her psychologically. As a PP noted, the scars will remain long after the cheating incident is forgotten.

Then why don't you just not do it, and accept the consequence, which in the big scheme of things, isn't the end of the world? I don't understand why you are suggesting getting legal involvement.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I would like to very gently suggest that this perspective may be part of the problem. If your DD has LDs that create anxiety, make it hard to follow directions, etc., she needs and deserves the help and support of the school system. She can't get that if you are avoiding working with the school or getting her formal accommodations -- I know it's hard as you may not want to "label" her, but this is clearly not in her best interest. With appropriate accommodations, she might be able to shed a lot of her anxiety and be happier at school. My own DD struggles with similar issues regarding instructions on tests and she's also a very bright, honor roll student. But these struggles cause her a LOT of anxiety and stress, even though teachers might have no idea if she didn't have a 504.

You can't insist she has a learning disability that everybody knows about (except they don't) and thus that excuses the behavior when you don't have an IEP. I can't even follow your logic here.

You ask about legal rights. The only legal rights here I think are for you to get a formal 504 and IEP and go forward on a prospective basis based on that.

But I don't think you can now pull the "but she has a SN" card out of the deck and try to play it. You kind of have to have the baseline there already. Formally.

Totally agree with these PP. Especially with bolded section.


I totally agree with the above but I SO feel for you OP. I know exactly what you are going through but you are not helping your daughter by trying to mainstream her when she is not ready. You have said your are not in MCPS or FCPS so I am assuming you are in D.C. or some other public school system. I can speak only to FCPS which has been terrific for my DS but you must work your way through the system to get the accommodations your daughter needs. Your daughter sounds exactly like my son - instructions often confuse him, especially instructions that have two or three steps to them such as "clean your room, take your laundry downstairs, wash your laundry." He might get one but forgets the other two. No he is not lazy - he just can't process the various steps.

If you can do it - and again I am assuming you are in a public school system - is to immediately start the 504/IEP process. You really can't ask the principal for "specials" if you haven't done your homework. In FCPS there is a compliance officer and it is his/her duty to make sure the district is in full complianvcrewith the Americans with Disabilities Act, etc. You need to locate that person and say you need help. Send them the email you posted here - it's well written and clear. Ask him or her what to do. Hopefully the compliance officer will put off the panel until the system can evaluate your daughter. Once you have asked for a 504/IEP the school, by law, has a certain number of days by which it has to respond to your request for a 504/IEP - but it is slow.

If that doesn't work, I'm afraid to say that you need to lawyer up, which is a pity because of the cost but you are stuck between a wall and a hard place. I don't think an educational consultant or advocate is going to help here (I'm a lawyer, and no, I don't have anyone to recommend).

Our approach to getting what DS needed was a longer round-about process. Prior to entering the FCPS system, we had DS tested for the 4th time. Previous testing results had indicated a genius I.Q. but slow processing skills - two standard deviations below norm. I asked for blind testing, meaning I wasn't asking the private tester to come up with anything nor did I allow him to see any of the prior testing. If you say "does my kid have ADHD?", the tester will find ADHD. Everyone has ADHD nowadays. After three days of testing, the testing was evaluated by a psychiatrist who gave us the sad but absolutely correct news that DS has high functioning Aspergers. Also comorbities of ADHD and anxiety. The diagnosis was dead-on. I did say to the shrink, "but he does maintain eye contact" and the psychiatrist said I was too close to the situation to notice it. That turned out to be true. The testing also indicated that DS is super smart, as is your daughter, in fact he scored so high on the ACT that he can join MENSA if you are in to that sort of thing - but organizing his locker or bedroom? Forget it.

Then we applied to FCPS for an IEP (BTW, a 504 is worthless in the FCPS system - they have so many kids that the system works really well for the very gifted because of the extraordinary AP courses the high schools provide. The system also works well for the kids with an IEP because an IEP is enforceable in court - it's the kids with the 504 or "average kids" who sometimes get lost in the FCPS system). I have been told numerous times by wiser parents that 504s are ignored by the FCPS system and my personal experience tells me this is correct info. You want an IEP because you can sue if the school does not provide the accommodations your kid needs.

Then, after reviewing our file, FCPS wanted to do some of its own testing, which included auditory and some other personality testing.

Then we had to go before a board. Depending on your school district. an advocate for the district may show up to fight the IEP. The nasty little secret is that the public schools don't want to hand out IEPS because it means more staff and money expended on the school,sometimes the Special Needs Officer actually acts as a gatekeeper to keep kids out of the IEP system. Not in compliance with the spirit of the IDEA, but they do it. Also, there has been some alleged abuse of the system because IEP kids can qualify for extra time on exams, so high schools, in particular, notice this uptick in IEP requests just before freshman year so that Sally can get extra time on the PSATs or ACTs. So now the school systems REALLY review the paperwork for an IEP. So you will need an advocate at that meeting - usually a psychiatrist or a lawyer. That person will tell the board why your child needs an IEP. Our shrink did a fantastic job.

The, should they clear you for an IEP, you have the pleasure of sitting down with your local public school and write the IEP. This is supposed to be a joint effort. You will need to read up on what you can ask for in an IEP. Dave Angel's books are good on this.

And, after that is all done, when your child gets in trouble, you may have to continue to remind the teachers that your child has SN and an IEP and that they have to help her.

It's not fun - but you have to help your daughter and get the proper paperwork done. But I sure feel for you.

BTW, kids with Aspergers (yeah yeah, i know it's now part of the "spectrum", don't lay it on) are usually very law abiding, honest kids who see things in black and white. There is no gray for them. Our DS is honest to a fault and will not let us help with homework or do anything that is against "the rules". I read a lot of Aspie behavior in what you posted. Aspies also have difficulty with processing instructions - that has been very difficult when it comes to homework unless it is printed on the school's blackboard - sometimes Aspie and ADHD kids just can't process all the info coming in at them in class and forget to write the assignment down. I completely believe your daughter was acting honestly. She just didn't "get it" as sometimes DS "doesn't get it". Sometimes Aspies will go off on their own "tic" and remember only that part of the assignment, as in "draw a character from Mark Twain's book and then a 250 word-essay on the book". Well, they process only "draw a character" and then will obsess about it for days. They will completely forget about the essay part. And so they are knocked down a grade. Aspies can also freeze, or "get stuck" on homework due to the anxiety. We have to watch for that because DS spends almost all of his "free" time on homework - often that's where the anxiety can be crippling, so they will do something stupid like cheat, copy something, or make excuses because they are completely frozen in fear and don't know how to get themselves out of the box. That's where you have to be vigilant and they call your child's caseworker at the school and say "DS is stuck on this essay and can't get it done. He's spent ten days on it and keeps rewriting it. I need you to communicate this to the teacher and find out what the original assignment was and help DS to figure out how to get unstuck".

I wish I could give you more advice but I so understand what you are going through. My DS has had problems of this kind and they were totally misunderstood by the school. Wr had to move him. He's now making honor roll every single semester.

You are in my prayers.

Good luck!

Thank you, PP, for this very informative post. I'm glad your son is doing so well. Pat yourself on the back because you sound like a great parent.

You've given me extremely useful information to use planning for next year. I've been through the dreadful IEP process, and will do so again, as it seems I must now. But while DD's in private school (until the end of this school year), are we without recourse? Does DD really have NO rights?

I was thinking I could go to our school district (where my other kids are enrolled), get the IEP, and then go back to the private school with a legal document saying DD is disabled -- won't she then be covered under ADA? And why isn't she covered now?

Of course, reason and compassion ought to be more important than all this legal stuff.

One ongoing problem I've had is that DD's issues are all very mild, but there are a number of them. Some professionals have dismissed her issues as "growing pains" and "nerdy" but normal behavior. Through all the testing I've had done, she's never fit into a single category except for one, which is very specific. I was told she does not have Aspergers, but the Aspie behavior you describe fits DD (at times) perfectly (although her bedroom is neat as a pin!) I've often thought of DD as a blinking light, sometimes on the spectrum, and sometimes off. For the past few years, she's mostly off the spectrum, but in the cases I described in my first post, she was definitely on. Perhaps stress is what brings on the Aspie behavior?

You've given me much to think about. Thank you for being so generous with your thoughts.

If I may ask, where did you move your child, PP? From private to public? Or did you move your entire family to another school district?

BTW, DD is doing great at her school. Until this incident, we've totally loved this school. DD still loves the school, despite being terrified of being judged by a panel of her peers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think you are letting your daughter off too easily. She knew she wasn't supposed to use that calculator which is why she showed it to the teacher. She just expected she would get special treatment and that the rules did not apply to her. Hmm wonder why that is?

OP, I have to agree with this poster. You have set your daughter up to feel that her slight problem will excuse her for having to obey rules that are intended for her good. You don't want her to appear before a panel of her peers because you already believe it will make her cry, embarrass her and be psychologically damaging. Is that the expectation you have set for her? If so, she will probably fulfill your expectations by behaving as you want her to. Just because she has a slight problem, doesn't mean there aren't consequences which will teach her how to function much better in the world than your protectionism.

[Anonymous]

OP, how likely is it that the middle school kids will accept your daughter's explanation that she didn't think it was cheating if you didn't use the forbidden functions?

I think the fact that she went and told the teacher that she HAD the calculator is very compelling -- as an adult (and a teacher) I would believe her. Now if she had been caught using it, that would be a different story.

I think your daughter's case requires compassion, and discretion. You are not asking for special treatment because she has undiagnosed special needs. You are asking for appropriate treatment and compassion.

I think the principal does not sound like a good principal for your child's needs. But to get through this situation -- can you ask if your child can submit written testimony to the "tribunal", or perhaps record her testimony, instead of being required to sit in front of her peers?

Personally, I would not have my child participate in this type of "trial" under circumstances you describe. I like using peers to help mediate conflicts among children, if the children agree. But middle school preteens should NOT be judging whether a child should be suspended. That is absolutely crazy!

[Anonymous]

OP, I wish you would stop being coy about what her diagnozed LD is. It would really help. Otherwise this feels kind of troll-ish to me.

I agree with PP -- if she showed the teacher the calculator ahead of time, how on earth could this be considered cheating?!

[Anonymous]

OP why not just prepare your daughter by giving her the correct arguments and facts And let her present the situation in front of the panel. Why are you so sure this couldn't be a wonderful way for her to gain some self confidence. What if she does this and the panel sides with her? Why does she even have to talk about her SN? Why not just say she thought it was ok and showed the calculator to the teacher? I think you are making this into something it doesn't necessarily have to be.

[Anonymous]

You can't be "too bright" for a 504.

My son has a 504 for dysgraphia and he scored in the 98% nationally for the ACT.

Your child needs to be able to work to the best of her potential- not at the 50th percentile.

Request a meeting with her counselor to sort this out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

My concern is that bringing my SN daughter before a panel of her peers is not an appropriate way of dealing with this infraction because of who my daughter is, her issues and needs. It will harm her irreparably, cause her to break down in front of her peers, humiliate, embarrass and damage her psychologically. As a PP noted, the scars will remain long after the cheating incident is forgotten.

Then why don't you just not do it, and accept the consequence, which in the big scheme of things, isn't the end of the world? I don't understand why you are suggesting getting legal involvement.

I absolutely do not want legal involvement. That was not my question.

I will not let my child go before this panel. That I have decided, no matter what the principal says. I came to this board hoping to find advice from other parents about my child's legal rights. I'd like to know what they are before I go back to the principal to tell him of my decision. I do not want the principal to force my daughter to submit to this panel and I'd like to know what I can do, short of pulling my child out of the school, to prevent him from doing so. He seems to be insisting that this will do her no harm, and I disagree.

On the other hand, DD loves this school. Pulling her out would also harm her. She's very happy there.

I can see that I need to get some more testing done, and get some accommodations for her. I did not think she needed any accommodations, but this incident has shown me that she does. The school will give her accommodations, should I ask for them. They have a LD person on staff, but DD has not needed any assistance prior to this.

Were she to be put through this ordeal of a peer review, I don't think she would love the school any longer.

Knowing that DD has NO rights whatsoever, has given me pause. Diplomacy and appealing to compassion and reason are what's called for here. I wanted to know DD's rights so I could call on them if necessary.

PPs have given me much to think about, and for that I am sincerely grateful. Thank you so much for your thoughtful replies.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm sorry your DD is in this jam. It's a difficult situation: You didn't document the disability with the school and ask for accommodations because you didn't think the disability affected your DD significantly and you didn't want her treated differently from other students. Now, however, you are saying the disability does affect her significantly and you do want her to be treated differently.

Is it actually a private school, OP?

This exactly.

[Anonymous]

I came to this board hoping to find advice from other parents about my child's legal rights. I'd like to know what they are before I go back to the principal to tell him of my decision. I do not want the principal to force my daughter to submit to this panel and I'd like to know what I can do, short of pulling my child out of the school, to prevent him from doing so. He seems to be insisting that this will do her no harm, and I disagree.

But how could he possibly force her? Just tell him she isn't going to go before the panel.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Op, I understand that you don't want to say where you live, but is your dd in a private school? The laws regarding IEP's ad 504 plans only apply to public schools.

If it's private she has no "legal rights" in this matter at all.

ADA and HIPPA applies everywhere.

Incorrect. Private schools do not have to comply with IEPs. Nor do colleges or universities, public or private. I don't think there is a HIPPA issue here. I've never heard of anyone using HIPPA in a school setting.

The ADA cannot be applied retroactively, as in, let me tell you about my disability in order to escape from this thing that is now happening to me. If you provide evidence of a disability, the school is responsible to provide accommodations for the future. It's not a get-out-of-jail-free card.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You can't be "too bright" for a 504.

My son has a 504 for dysgraphia and he scored in the 98% nationally for the ACT.

Your child needs to be able to work to the best of her potential- not at the 50th percentile.

Request a meeting with her counselor to sort this out.

That is a GT level core. GT kids are protected by law 80% kids are not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You can't be "too bright" for a 504.

My son has a 504 for dysgraphia and he scored in the 98% nationally for the ACT.

Your child needs to be able to work to the best of her potential- not at the 50th percentile.

Request a meeting with her counselor to sort this out.

That is a GT level core. GT kids are protected by law 80% kids are not.

What is GT level core? I am not being snarky, I truly don't understand. Please elaborate.

[Anonymous]

I have a few strategic ideas.

If your daughter sees a therapist, perhaps that therapist can persuade the principal. The LD person on staff at the school might be an advocate for you as well. If not, is there a headmaster who can overrule the principal? Finally, the school will have a board of directors. Go them, explain the situation concisely, and ask for their help.

One last hope might be to ask the principal to defer the tribunal while you document your daughter's disabilities and establish the appropriate accommodations.

If you strike out on all of the above, I agree with your refusal to allow her to appear at the peer tribunal.

The logistics of refusing to attend will be challenging. The tribunal would probably occur during school hours and it would be difficult for your daughter to physically refuse to attend if she were summoned. So you would have to tell the principal in advance, and in writing, that you explictly do not consent to this. You may have to withdraw her from school to avoid it. Only you know if that would be worth it. I know some situations in which it would be, and some in which it would not be. It depends on your kid. If her emotions really can't sustain it, then move her now.

It sounds like you are not in DC. It may be worthwhile to find an educational attorney to advise you. If nothing else, you may want help in negotiating return of the balance of the year's tuition if you withdraw your daughter.

I feel for you, and your daughter. You both acknowledge the mistake and aren't trying to get out of appropriate consequences, but this peer review thing is inappropriate.