SN/Gifted DD accused of cheating -- legal rights?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

I would like to very gently suggest that this perspective may be part of the problem. If your DD has LDs that create anxiety, make it hard to follow directions, etc., she needs and deserves the help and support of the school system. She can't get that if you are avoiding working with the school or getting her formal accommodations -- I know it's hard as you may not want to "label" her, but this is clearly not in her best interest. With appropriate accommodations, she might be able to shed a lot of her anxiety and be happier at school. My own DD struggles with similar issues regarding instructions on tests and she's also a very bright, honor roll student. But these struggles cause her a LOT of anxiety and stress, even though teachers might have no idea if she didn't have a 504.

You can't insist she has a learning disability that everybody knows about (except they don't) and thus that excuses the behavior when you don't have an IEP. I can't even follow your logic here.

You ask about legal rights. The only legal rights here I think are for you to get a formal 504 and IEP and go forward on a prospective basis based on that.

But I don't think you can now pull the "but she has a SN" card out of the deck and try to play it. You kind of have to have the baseline there already. Formally.

Totally agree with these PP. Especially with bolded section.


I totally agree with the above but I SO feel for you OP. I know exactly what you are going through but you are not helping your daughter by trying to mainstream her when she is not ready. You have said your are not in MCPS or FCPS so I am assuming you are in D.C. or some other public school system. I can speak only to FCPS which has been terrific for my DS but you must work your way through the system to get the accommodations your daughter needs. Your daughter sounds exactly like my son - instructions often confuse him, especially instructions that have two or three steps to them such as "clean your room, take your laundry downstairs, wash your laundry." He might get one but forgets the other two. No he is not lazy - he just can't process the various steps.

If you can do it - and again I am assuming you are in a public school system - is to immediately start the 504/IEP process. You really can't ask the principal for "specials" if you haven't done your homework. In FCPS there is a compliance officer and it is his/her duty to make sure the district is in full complianvcrewith the Americans with Disabilities Act, etc. You need to locate that person and say you need help. Send them the email you posted here - it's well written and clear. Ask him or her what to do. Hopefully the compliance officer will put off the panel until the system can evaluate your daughter. Once you have asked for a 504/IEP the school, by law, has a certain number of days by which it has to respond to your request for a 504/IEP - but it is slow.

If that doesn't work, I'm afraid to say that you need to lawyer up, which is a pity because of the cost but you are stuck between a wall and a hard place. I don't think an educational consultant or advocate is going to help here (I'm a lawyer, and no, I don't have anyone to recommend).

Our approach to getting what DS needed was a longer round-about process. Prior to entering the FCPS system, we had DS tested for the 4th time. Previous testing results had indicated a genius I.Q. but slow processing skills - two standard deviations below norm. I asked for blind testing, meaning I wasn't asking the private tester to come up with anything nor did I allow him to see any of the prior testing. If you say "does my kid have ADHD?", the tester will find ADHD. Everyone has ADHD nowadays. After three days of testing, the testing was evaluated by a psychiatrist who gave us the sad but absolutely correct news that DS has high functioning Aspergers. Also comorbities of ADHD and anxiety. The diagnosis was dead-on. I did say to the shrink, "but he does maintain eye contact" and the psychiatrist said I was too close to the situation to notice it. That turned out to be true. The testing also indicated that DS is super smart, as is your daughter, in fact he scored so high on the ACT that he can join MENSA if you are in to that sort of thing - but organizing his locker or bedroom? Forget it.

Then we applied to FCPS for an IEP (BTW, a 504 is worthless in the FCPS system - they have so many kids that the system works really well for the very gifted because of the extraordinary AP courses the high schools provide. The system also works well for the kids with an IEP because an IEP is enforceable in court - it's the kids with the 504 or "average kids" who sometimes get lost in the FCPS system). I have been told numerous times by wiser parents that 504s are ignored by the FCPS system and my personal experience tells me this is correct info. You want an IEP because you can sue if the school does not provide the accommodations your kid needs.

Then, after reviewing our file, FCPS wanted to do some of its own testing, which included auditory and some other personality testing.

Then we had to go before a board. Depending on your school district. an advocate for the district may show up to fight the IEP. The nasty little secret is that the public schools don't want to hand out IEPS because it means more staff and money expended on the school,sometimes the Special Needs Officer actually acts as a gatekeeper to keep kids out of the IEP system. Not in compliance with the spirit of the IDEA, but they do it. Also, there has been some alleged abuse of the system because IEP kids can qualify for extra time on exams, so high schools, in particular, notice this uptick in IEP requests just before freshman year so that Sally can get extra time on the PSATs or ACTs. So now the school systems REALLY review the paperwork for an IEP. So you will need an advocate at that meeting - usually a psychiatrist or a lawyer. That person will tell the board why your child needs an IEP. Our shrink did a fantastic job.

The, should they clear you for an IEP, you have the pleasure of sitting down with your local public school and write the IEP. This is supposed to be a joint effort. You will need to read up on what you can ask for in an IEP. Dave Angel's books are good on this.

And, after that is all done, when your child gets in trouble, you may have to continue to remind the teachers that your child has SN and an IEP and that they have to help her.

It's not fun - but you have to help your daughter and get the proper paperwork done. But I sure feel for you.

BTW, kids with Aspergers (yeah yeah, i know it's now part of the "spectrum", don't lay it on) are usually very law abiding, honest kids who see things in black and white. There is no gray for them. Our DS is honest to a fault and will not let us help with homework or do anything that is against "the rules". I read a lot of Aspie behavior in what you posted. Aspies also have difficulty with processing instructions - that has been very difficult when it comes to homework unless it is printed on the school's blackboard - sometimes Aspie and ADHD kids just can't process all the info coming in at them in class and forget to write the assignment down. I completely believe your daughter was acting honestly. She just didn't "get it" as sometimes DS "doesn't get it". Sometimes Aspies will go off on their own "tic" and remember only that part of the assignment, as in "draw a character from Mark Twain's book and then a 250 word-essay on the book". Well, they process only "draw a character" and then will obsess about it for days. They will completely forget about the essay part. And so they are knocked down a grade. Aspies can also freeze, or "get stuck" on homework due to the anxiety. We have to watch for that because DS spends almost all of his "free" time on homework - often that's where the anxiety can be crippling, so they will do something stupid like cheat, copy something, or make excuses because they are completely frozen in fear and don't know how to get themselves out of the box. That's where you have to be vigilant and they call your child's caseworker at the school and say "DS is stuck on this essay and can't get it done. He's spent ten days on it and keeps rewriting it. I need you to communicate this to the teacher and find out what the original assignment was and help DS to figure out how to get unstuck".

I wish I could give you more advice but I so understand what you are going through. My DS has had problems of this kind and they were totally misunderstood by the school. Wr had to move him. He's now making honor roll every single semester.

You are in my prayers.

Good luck!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Op, I understand that you don't want to say where you live, but is your dd in a private school? The laws regarding IEP's ad 504 plans only apply to public schools.

If it's private she has no "legal rights" in this matter at all.

ADA and HIPPA applies everywhere.

Incorrect. Private schools do not have to comply with IEPs. Nor do colleges or universities, public or private. I don't think there is a HIPPA issue here. I've never heard of anyone using HIPPA in a school setting.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think you are letting your daughter off too easily. She knew she wasn't supposed to use that calculator which is why she showed it to the teacher. She just expected she would get special treatment and that the rules did not apply to her. Hmm wonder why that is?

You know that how?

My sons teacher said, "one more word and you will sit in the hallway." he said one more word because he wanted to sit in the hallway. That is how his brain works.

He did not understand the problem. He does not understand idioms, sarcasm, etc.

I believe she thought using a calculator but not using all the functions was not wrong. It's logical to me.

They should just do a retest.

Precisely! Aspie kids or ADHD kids do NOT get sarcasm. My Aspie son sees everything in black and white. Very legalistic. Sarcasm goes right over their head. They see everything literally. Idioms, symbolism, metaphors are totally lost on them.

[Anonymous]

I think the poster meant FERPA, not HIPPA.

[Anonymous]

Op, it does sounds like a bad situation. Why can't she just refuse to do the peer panel, accept the week of suspension, and in the interim, get her a 504 and IEP so that this doesn't ever happen again?

[Anonymous]

15:12 Back. While I was writing my long email about the process for an IEP in FCPS, someone commented that we PPs have detrmined that OP is in a private school. If so, OP, you have to change schools immediately. You have no legal rights. Private schools do not have to comply with the Individuals with Disability Act, IDEA, or ADA. Period. Some privates have their own management plans for dealing with kids with "issues" but they are not called IEPs or 504s. If you are private you need to switch immediately. I would never submit my daughter to something like a panel. Your problem will be a referral from the principal - who, most likely - will say she has been accused of cheating. It will also be difficult to switch mid-year, but if you can do it, do it immediately.
Or immediately place her in public, but get her out of that school. If you can afford it, hire a lawyer to write out an agreement that you will leave the school and say nothing ill about the school being negligent or engaging in malfeasance and, in turn, the school can say nothing ill about either you or daughter. If you place her in public, you won't need that confidentiality agreement - but you will need to immediately start the process for an IEP.

HIPPA is inapplicable to this situation. FERPA protects students records - that's why attemptsby the birthers to get Obama's records from college and law school have failed. His records are protected by FERPA. I don't see how that applies here either.

If private, you need to pull her immediately. You could even homeschool for the rest of the year. Don't make her go through this madness.

[Anonymous]

I would not do anything.

She broke a rule. She is facing a consequence. That's the way the world works. It doesn't make allowances for LDs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:15:12 Back. While I was writing my long email about the process for an IEP in FCPS, someone commented that we PPs have detrmined that OP is in a private school. If so, OP, you have to change schools immediately. You have no legal rights. Private schools do not have to comply with the Individuals with Disability Act, IDEA, or ADA. Period. Some privates have their own management plans for dealing with kids with "issues" but they are not called IEPs or 504s. If you are private you need to switch immediately. I would never submit my daughter to something like a panel. Your problem will be a referral from the principal - who, most likely - will say she has been accused of cheating. It will also be difficult to switch mid-year, but if you can do it, do it immediately.
Or immediately place her in public, but get her out of that school. If you can afford it, hire a lawyer to write out an agreement that you will leave the school and say nothing ill about the school being negligent or engaging in malfeasance and, in turn, the school can say nothing ill about either you or daughter. If you place her in public, you won't need that confidentiality agreement - but you will need to immediately start the process for an IEP.

HIPPA is inapplicable to this situation. FERPA protects students records - that's why attemptsby the birthers to get Obama's records from college and law school have failed. His records are protected by FERPA. I don't see how that applies here either.

If private, you need to pull her immediately. You could even homeschool for the rest of the year. Don't make her go through this madness.

GREAT advice here!

[Anonymous]

I'm sorry your DD is in this jam. It's a difficult situation: You didn't document the disability with the school and ask for accommodations because you didn't think the disability affected your DD significantly and you didn't want her treated differently from other students. Now, however, you are saying the disability does affect her significantly and you do want her to be treated differently.

Is it actually a private school, OP?

[Anonymous]

I'm sorry OP, but I agree with the principal. You don't have an IEP. Yet you are so adamant that she is disabled. either she has it or she doesn't why would you go to the trouble of getting a DX and not get an IEP too. It is precisely for this type of protection.

[Anonymous]

OP's not responding...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think you are letting your daughter off too easily. She knew she wasn't supposed to use that calculator which is why she showed it to the teacher. She just expected she would get special treatment and that the rules did not apply to her. Hmm wonder why that is?

OP here again. Yes, DD is in a private middle school, but she was in public elementary school (where we had the IEP) and will be in public high school next year. I had no idea IEPs do not apply in private schools. That makes no sense to me. Isn't an IEP part of a Federal program? My neighbor had a kid in private who had an IEP. It never occurred to me that an IEP didn't apply to private.

To respond to the above poster, yes, on the surface, it looks like DD did what you said, but it's not that cut and dried. I think the principal sees this incident as you do. I know DD was not trying to cheat. She was unable to find her calculator. She thought (right or wrong) that if she didn't use the functions she was not allowed to use, it would be OK. She thinks very literally, and her reasoning can be a little convoluted. This is something I understand because I know her. But to someone who doesn't know her, like the principal, it looks like DD was thinking that the rules didn't apply to her. But if you have a LD child with my DD's issues, you will understand that my DD does not think that way. All the students had to show their calculators to the teacher at the end of the test (why the end, rather than the beginning, I don't know).

She knows she made a poor decision, we've gone over that, and she does understand that she ought to have told her teacher at the beginning of the test that she didn't have the right calculator. I agree there should be consequences for my daughter, but these should help, not hurt her.

My concern is that bringing my SN daughter before a panel of her peers is not an appropriate way of dealing with this infraction because of who my daughter is, her issues and needs. It will harm her irreparably, cause her to break down in front of her peers, humiliate, embarrass and damage her psychologically. As a PP noted, the scars will remain long after the cheating incident is forgotten.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think you are letting your daughter off too easily. She knew she wasn't supposed to use that calculator which is why she showed it to the teacher. She just expected she would get special treatment and that the rules did not apply to her. Hmm wonder why that is?

You know that how?

My sons teacher said, "one more word and you will sit in the hallway." he said one more word because he wanted to sit in the hallway. That is how his brain works.

He did not understand the problem. He does not understand idioms, sarcasm, etc.

I believe she thought using a calculator but not using all the functions was not wrong. It's logical to me.

They should just do a retest.

Thank you for this post. It does clarify things for me. DD thinks so literally that she didn't understand that simply having the calculator in the classroom was wrong because it gave her the opportunity to cheat, even though she did not avail herself of that opportunity. Her mind does not understand nuance very easily. When I explained this to her, she still didn't really understand, since she is very honest. When she says she won't do something, she doesn't do it. This is one of her social issues. She does not understand that children often say one thing and do something else. That is a mystery to her, which is why she's socially behind her peers.

[Anonymous]

I thought the point of shelling out all that money for a private school is so that you have your child in a more intimate leatning environment, where all the teachers and administration know and value your child as an individual learner, and the staff works together to provide each child with the best learning experience possible for their own strengths and weaknesses.

In a tiny private school, if mom submitted a written record of her daughter's disabilities to multiple people at the school, how the hell was the principal unaware of the child's learning issues? They manage to figure those things out in my kid's fcps elementary of almost 1000 kids and close to 30 kids per classroom. Why couldn't they figure it out in your tiny private school with what I assume are those desireable classes of fewer than 20 kids? Someone in the administration is not giving you what you paid for OP.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:15:12 Back. While I was writing my long email about the process for an IEP in FCPS, someone commented that we PPs have detrmined that OP is in a private school. If so, OP, you have to change schools immediately. You have no legal rights. Private schools do not have to comply with the Individuals with Disability Act, IDEA, or ADA. Period. Some privates have their own management plans for dealing with kids with "issues" but they are not called IEPs or 504s. If you are private you need to switch immediately. I would never submit my daughter to something like a panel. Your problem will be a referral from the principal - who, most likely - will say she has been accused of cheating. It will also be difficult to switch mid-year, but if you can do it, do it immediately.
Or immediately place her in public, but get her out of that school. If you can afford it, hire a lawyer to write out an agreement that you will leave the school and say nothing ill about the school being negligent or engaging in malfeasance and, in turn, the school can say nothing ill about either you or daughter. If you place her in public, you won't need that confidentiality agreement - but you will need to immediately start the process for an IEP.

HIPPA is inapplicable to this situation. FERPA protects students records - that's why attemptsby the birthers to get Obama's records from college and law school have failed. His records are protected by FERPA. I don't see how that applies here either.

If private, you need to pull her immediately. You could even homeschool for the rest of the year. Don't make her go through this madness.

GREAT advice here!

Well, thank you! It's so rare that anyone thanks someone else on this site. . . . . I just hope I didn't waste all that time typing on a troll . . . . .