Whatever happened to Klebod and Harris' parents?

[Anonymous]

I would never say "evil" to the parents. But that's the reality of it. Supposedly they have accepted that fact.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm not sure it's "severe denial" to fail to have contemplated that your child might shoot up a school. Especially in 1999, when it wasn't nearly so common as it is now. Acknowledging that your child is very troubled, sure, but mass murder is quite a few steps beyond that.

My heart breaks for the Klebolds. And I know there has been less sympathy for Eric Harris' parents because they haven't been open with their apologies and grief like the Klebolds, but I almost feel even worse for them because unlike Dylan's severe depression, I'm really not sure what they could have done for Eric. He was a psychopath and a narcissist and unfortunately mental health treatment does not really have anything in the arsenal to deal effectively with those conditions aside from advising those close to the person to run away so they don't get hurt. Psychopathy is largely an accident of genetics, and researchers have found that therapy and treatment just make it worse because it trains the person to better manipulate and lie in order to trick the therapist, which it appears happened with Eric. Psychopaths are very good at charming and pulling the wool over people's eyes--it's part of the disorder, and I can't blame Eric's parents for falling for it. He was going to do something truly horrible eventually and I don't think they could have done anything except postpone it a bit. He was almost an adult, almost out of their house, and this isn't the movie "Minority Report" where we can lock up budding criminals before they've actually committed the act.

I agree. And from all accounts his parents were not bad parents who raised him poorly or something. He was born wrong and there was nothing they could do. As a parent, that has to be devastating to come
To terms with - that your child is just evil.

I haven't read the book and really have no deep knowledge for the people, but I think it would be more empathetic to that parents to say "that your child is broken" rather than "evil". To me evil is a choice made by a healthy, rational mind. "Broken" was just born that way.

Psychopaths are just as rational as you or I. Perhaps even more so, because they aren't bounded by annoying mushiness like empathy or love. They know what they want and how to get it--they have a very skilled ability to study people, analyze them for exactly who they are and what their weaknesses and motivations are, and then use that knowledge to manipulate and control to achieve their own ends without letting their plans be derailed by irrational inconveniences like feelings, arbitrary societal norms, or whether some moron bureaucrat wrote a law against it. They want X, and they are going to get X. What could be more rational?

That's what's so scary. They are so rational and calculating that most of us can't see them for what they are because our less rational, empathy-bound brains can't believe someone would do those things. Often it's only after the fact that you realize what you were dealing with, and by then it's too late.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm not sure it's "severe denial" to fail to have contemplated that your child might shoot up a school. Especially in 1999, when it wasn't nearly so common as it is now. Acknowledging that your child is very troubled, sure, but mass murder is quite a few steps beyond that.

My heart breaks for the Klebolds. And I know there has been less sympathy for Eric Harris' parents because they haven't been open with their apologies and grief like the Klebolds, but I almost feel even worse for them because unlike Dylan's severe depression, I'm really not sure what they could have done for Eric. He was a psychopath and a narcissist and unfortunately mental health treatment does not really have anything in the arsenal to deal effectively with those conditions aside from advising those close to the person to run away so they don't get hurt. Psychopathy is largely an accident of genetics, and researchers have found that therapy and treatment just make it worse because it trains the person to better manipulate and lie in order to trick the therapist, which it appears happened with Eric. Psychopaths are very good at charming and pulling the wool over people's eyes--it's part of the disorder, and I can't blame Eric's parents for falling for it. He was going to do something truly horrible eventually and I don't think they could have done anything except postpone it a bit. He was almost an adult, almost out of their house, and this isn't the movie "Minority Report" where we can lock up budding criminals before they've actually committed the act.

I agree. And from all accounts his parents were not bad parents who raised him poorly or something. He was born wrong and there was nothing they could do. As a parent, that has to be devastating to come
To terms with - that your child is just evil.

I haven't read the book and really have no deep knowledge for the people, but I think it would be more empathetic to that parents to say "that your child is broken" rather than "evil". To me evil is a choice made by a healthy, rational mind. "Broken" was just born that way.

Psychopaths are just as rational as you or I. Perhaps even more so, because they aren't bounded by annoying mushiness like empathy or love. They know what they want and how to get it--they have a very skilled ability to study people, analyze them for exactly who they are and what their weaknesses and motivations are, and then use that knowledge to manipulate and control to achieve their own ends without letting their plans be derailed by irrational inconveniences like feelings, arbitrary societal norms, or whether some moron bureaucrat wrote a law against it. They want X, and they are going to get X. What could be more rational?

That's what's so scary. They are so rational and calculating that most of us can't see them for what they are because our less rational, empathy-bound brains can't believe someone would do those things. Often it's only after the fact that you realize what you were dealing with, and by then it's too late.

This sounds absolutely terrifying. Just out of curiosity: Are there any other famous psychopaths?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm not sure it's "severe denial" to fail to have contemplated that your child might shoot up a school. Especially in 1999, when it wasn't nearly so common as it is now. Acknowledging that your child is very troubled, sure, but mass murder is quite a few steps beyond that.

My heart breaks for the Klebolds. And I know there has been less sympathy for Eric Harris' parents because they haven't been open with their apologies and grief like the Klebolds, but I almost feel even worse for them because unlike Dylan's severe depression, I'm really not sure what they could have done for Eric. He was a psychopath and a narcissist and unfortunately mental health treatment does not really have anything in the arsenal to deal effectively with those conditions aside from advising those close to the person to run away so they don't get hurt. Psychopathy is largely an accident of genetics, and researchers have found that therapy and treatment just make it worse because it trains the person to better manipulate and lie in order to trick the therapist, which it appears happened with Eric. Psychopaths are very good at charming and pulling the wool over people's eyes--it's part of the disorder, and I can't blame Eric's parents for falling for it. He was going to do something truly horrible eventually and I don't think they could have done anything except postpone it a bit. He was almost an adult, almost out of their house, and this isn't the movie "Minority Report" where we can lock up budding criminals before they've actually committed the act.

I agree. And from all accounts his parents were not bad parents who raised him poorly or something. He was born wrong and there was nothing they could do. As a parent, that has to be devastating to come
To terms with - that your child is just evil.

I haven't read the book and really have no deep knowledge for the people, but I think it would be more empathetic to that parents to say "that your child is broken" rather than "evil". To me evil is a choice made by a healthy, rational mind. "Broken" was just born that way.

Psychopaths are just as rational as you or I. Perhaps even more so, because they aren't bounded by annoying mushiness like empathy or love. They know what they want and how to get it--they have a very skilled ability to study people, analyze them for exactly who they are and what their weaknesses and motivations are, and then use that knowledge to manipulate and control to achieve their own ends without letting their plans be derailed by irrational inconveniences like feelings, arbitrary societal norms, or whether some moron bureaucrat wrote a law against it. They want X, and they are going to get X. What could be more rational?

That's what's so scary. They are so rational and calculating that most of us can't see them for what they are because our less rational, empathy-bound brains can't believe someone would do those things. Often it's only after the fact that you realize what you were dealing with, and by then it's too late.

This sounds absolutely terrifying. Just out of curiosity: Are there any other famous psychopaths?

Ted Bundy. BTK. Probably Joseph Mengele. Charles Manson. Many serial killers. Likely some of history's examples of brutal rulers, like Vlad the Impaler. Experts are less sure about Adolf Hitler.

The latest estimate I've seen is that about 1% of the male population is a diagnosable psychopath via Hare's Psychopathy Checklist (there are females, too, but it's more common in males). Not all of them have such violent tendencies as the above examples, or we'd be overrun with murderers--many settle for much smaller, less blatantly illegal displays of domination and exploitation. Just like with every person, there are varying levels of intelligence, ambition, laziness, etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. I think I remember reading that, actually, now that I've just (re?) read it. What I remember is feeling dissatisfied. It doesn't actually say anything except I had no idea. She writes of some vignettes - holding his face in her hands, talking to him about how much he is loved. But can you really really miss 2+ years of depression and suicidal thoughts? (My kids are younger, so I've not faced teenagers). Can you really miss every single warning sign? Can there really be no warning signs?

It's speculated Klebold was the follower, right? And Harris the more dominant personality?

I think everyone, after something senseless happens, wants to know why. And just hearing that people are mentally ill isn't enough. That's not why. There have to be reasons why. Because of there are reasons why, then we can work backwards and figure out how to stop this from happening again. We have to stop this from happening again. We can't accept these things just happen.

Hdn't they been bullied by the "in" crowd? The star athletes, cheerleaders, etc.

This is a contested issue. A friend of the boys said that they were bullied. A reporter who investigated the issue found that they weren't bullied, but that Harris was prone to bullying himself. Harris was a sociopath. Klebold was depressed. Harris had a severe case of megolomania and wanted to prove his superiority to the whole world. He was deeply angry that no one recognized that he was God-like and better than everyone else. Klebold got sucked in to the fantasy.

I think the book supports this idea far more than bullying.

Interesting.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm not sure it's "severe denial" to fail to have contemplated that your child might shoot up a school. Especially in 1999, when it wasn't nearly so common as it is now. Acknowledging that your child is very troubled, sure, but mass murder is quite a few steps beyond that.

My heart breaks for the Klebolds. And I know there has been less sympathy for Eric Harris' parents because they haven't been open with their apologies and grief like the Klebolds, but I almost feel even worse for them because unlike Dylan's severe depression, I'm really not sure what they could have done for Eric. He was a psychopath and a narcissist and unfortunately mental health treatment does not really have anything in the arsenal to deal effectively with those conditions aside from advising those close to the person to run away so they don't get hurt. Psychopathy is largely an accident of genetics, and researchers have found that therapy and treatment just make it worse because it trains the person to better manipulate and lie in order to trick the therapist, which it appears happened with Eric. Psychopaths are very good at charming and pulling the wool over people's eyes--it's part of the disorder, and I can't blame Eric's parents for falling for it. He was going to do something truly horrible eventually and I don't think they could have done anything except postpone it a bit. He was almost an adult, almost out of their house, and this isn't the movie "Minority Report" where we can lock up budding criminals before they've actually committed the act.

I agree. And from all accounts his parents were not bad parents who raised him poorly or something. He was born wrong and there was nothing they could do. As a parent, that has to be devastating to come
To terms with - that your child is just evil.

I haven't read the book and really have no deep knowledge for the people, but I think it would be more empathetic to that parents to say "that your child is broken" rather than "evil". To me evil is a choice made by a healthy, rational mind. "Broken" was just born that way.

Psychopaths are just as rational as you or I. Perhaps even more so, because they aren't bounded by annoying mushiness like empathy or love. They know what they want and how to get it--they have a very skilled ability to study people, analyze them for exactly who they are and what their weaknesses and motivations are, and then use that knowledge to manipulate and control to achieve their own ends without letting their plans be derailed by irrational inconveniences like feelings, arbitrary societal norms, or whether some moron bureaucrat wrote a law against it. They want X, and they are going to get X. What could be more rational?

That's what's so scary. They are so rational and calculating that most of us can't see them for what they are because our less rational, empathy-bound brains can't believe someone would do those things. Often it's only after the fact that you realize what you were dealing with, and by then it's too late.

This sounds absolutely terrifying. Just out of curiosity: Are there any other famous psychopaths?

Ted Bundy. BTK. Probably Joseph Mengele. Charles Manson. Many serial killers. Likely some of history's examples of brutal rulers, like Vlad the Impaler. Experts are less sure about Adolf Hitler.

The latest estimate I've seen is that about 1% of the male population is a diagnosable psychopath via Hare's Psychopathy Checklist (there are females, too, but it's more common in males). Not all of them have such violent tendencies as the above examples, or we'd be overrun with murderers--many settle for much smaller, less blatantly illegal displays of domination and exploitation. Just like with every person, there are varying levels of intelligence, ambition, laziness, etc.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm not sure it's "severe denial" to fail to have contemplated that your child might shoot up a school. Especially in 1999, when it wasn't nearly so common as it is now. Acknowledging that your child is very troubled, sure, but mass murder is quite a few steps beyond that.

My heart breaks for the Klebolds. And I know there has been less sympathy for Eric Harris' parents because they haven't been open with their apologies and grief like the Klebolds, but I almost feel even worse for them because unlike Dylan's severe depression, I'm really not sure what they could have done for Eric. He was a psychopath and a narcissist and unfortunately mental health treatment does not really have anything in the arsenal to deal effectively with those conditions aside from advising those close to the person to run away so they don't get hurt. Psychopathy is largely an accident of genetics, and researchers have found that therapy and treatment just make it worse because it trains the person to better manipulate and lie in order to trick the therapist, which it appears happened with Eric. Psychopaths are very good at charming and pulling the wool over people's eyes--it's part of the disorder, and I can't blame Eric's parents for falling for it. He was going to do something truly horrible eventually and I don't think they could have done anything except postpone it a bit. He was almost an adult, almost out of their house, and this isn't the movie "Minority Report" where we can lock up budding criminals before they've actually committed the act.

I agree. And from all accounts his parents were not bad parents who raised him poorly or something. He was born wrong and there was nothing they could do. As a parent, that has to be devastating to come
To terms with - that your child is just evil.

I haven't read the book and really have no deep knowledge for the people, but I think it would be more empathetic to that parents to say "that your child is broken" rather than "evil". To me evil is a choice made by a healthy, rational mind. "Broken" was just born that way.

Psychopaths are just as rational as you or I. Perhaps even more so, because they aren't bounded by annoying mushiness like empathy or love. They know what they want and how to get it--they have a very skilled ability to study people, analyze them for exactly who they are and what their weaknesses and motivations are, and then use that knowledge to manipulate and control to achieve their own ends without letting their plans be derailed by irrational inconveniences like feelings, arbitrary societal norms, or whether some moron bureaucrat wrote a law against it. They want X, and they are going to get X. What could be more rational?

That's what's so scary. They are so rational and calculating that most of us can't see them for what they are because our less rational, empathy-bound brains can't believe someone would do those things. Often it's only after the fact that you realize what you were dealing with, and by then it's too late.

This sounds absolutely terrifying. Just out of curiosity: Are there any other famous psychopaths?

Ted Bundy. BTK. Probably Joseph Mengele. Charles Manson. Many serial killers. Likely some of history's examples of brutal rulers, like Vlad the Impaler. Experts are less sure about Adolf Hitler.

The latest estimate I've seen is that about 1% of the male population is a diagnosable psychopath via Hare's Psychopathy Checklist (there are females, too, but it's more common in males). Not all of them have such violent tendencies as the above examples, or we'd be overrun with murderers--many settle for much smaller, less blatantly illegal displays of domination and exploitation. Just like with every person, there are varying levels of intelligence, ambition, laziness, etc.

+1

What's your point exactly? Criminals became household names?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm not sure it's "severe denial" to fail to have contemplated that your child might shoot up a school. Especially in 1999, when it wasn't nearly so common as it is now. Acknowledging that your child is very troubled, sure, but mass murder is quite a few steps beyond that.

My heart breaks for the Klebolds. And I know there has been less sympathy for Eric Harris' parents because they haven't been open with their apologies and grief like the Klebolds, but I almost feel even worse for them because unlike Dylan's severe depression, I'm really not sure what they could have done for Eric. He was a psychopath and a narcissist and unfortunately mental health treatment does not really have anything in the arsenal to deal effectively with those conditions aside from advising those close to the person to run away so they don't get hurt. Psychopathy is largely an accident of genetics, and researchers have found that therapy and treatment just make it worse because it trains the person to better manipulate and lie in order to trick the therapist, which it appears happened with Eric. Psychopaths are very good at charming and pulling the wool over people's eyes--it's part of the disorder, and I can't blame Eric's parents for falling for it. He was going to do something truly horrible eventually and I don't think they could have done anything except postpone it a bit. He was almost an adult, almost out of their house, and this isn't the movie "Minority Report" where we can lock up budding criminals before they've actually committed the act.

I agree. And from all accounts his parents were not bad parents who raised him poorly or something. He was born wrong and there was nothing they could do. As a parent, that has to be devastating to come
To terms with - that your child is just evil.

I haven't read the book and really have no deep knowledge for the people, but I think it would be more empathetic to that parents to say "that your child is broken" rather than "evil". To me evil is a choice made by a healthy, rational mind. "Broken" was just born that way.

Your empathy lies with the killer's parents apparently? Mine is with the victims. Always.

[Anonymous]

Dylan's mother just released a brand-new book.

I cannot wait to read it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Dylan's mother just released a brand-new book.

I cannot wait to read it.

I am reading it now. She doesn't hold back, makes no excuses, and goes in depth about their lives, his upbringing, the hints she now see as red flags and all of her emotions and perspectives since.

I've always been interested in hearing from the Harris family which I don't think will ever happen. This book gives a bit of a glimpse of him and his rage when she recounts interactions and events she witnessed. Dylan was a suicidal lost soul, his life would have been different had he never met Eric Harris.

[Anonymous]

Perhaps his life would have been different if we knew how to effectively respond to the red flags.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm not sure it's "severe denial" to fail to have contemplated that your child might shoot up a school. Especially in 1999, when it wasn't nearly so common as it is now. Acknowledging that your child is very troubled, sure, but mass murder is quite a few steps beyond that.

My heart breaks for the Klebolds. And I know there has been less sympathy for Eric Harris' parents because they haven't been open with their apologies and grief like the Klebolds, but I almost feel even worse for them because unlike Dylan's severe depression, I'm really not sure what they could have done for Eric. He was a psychopath and a narcissist and unfortunately mental health treatment does not really have anything in the arsenal to deal effectively with those conditions aside from advising those close to the person to run away so they don't get hurt. Psychopathy is largely an accident of genetics, and researchers have found that therapy and treatment just make it worse because it trains the person to better manipulate and lie in order to trick the therapist, which it appears happened with Eric. Psychopaths are very good at charming and pulling the wool over people's eyes--it's part of the disorder, and I can't blame Eric's parents for falling for it. He was going to do something truly horrible eventually and I don't think they could have done anything except postpone it a bit. He was almost an adult, almost out of their house, and this isn't the movie "Minority Report" where we can lock up budding criminals before they've actually committed the act.

I agree. And from all accounts his parents were not bad parents who raised him poorly or something. He was born wrong and there was nothing they could do. As a parent, that has to be devastating to come
To terms with - that your child is just evil.

I haven't read the book and really have no deep knowledge for the people, but I think it would be more empathetic to that parents to say "that your child is broken" rather than "evil". To me evil is a choice made by a healthy, rational mind. "Broken" was just born that way.

Your empathy lies with the killer's parents apparently? Mine is with the victims. Always.

Empathy is not a zero-sum game. You can have empathy for more than one thing simultaneously.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm not sure it's "severe denial" to fail to have contemplated that your child might shoot up a school. Especially in 1999, when it wasn't nearly so common as it is now. Acknowledging that your child is very troubled, sure, but mass murder is quite a few steps beyond that.

My heart breaks for the Klebolds. And I know there has been less sympathy for Eric Harris' parents because they haven't been open with their apologies and grief like the Klebolds, but I almost feel even worse for them because unlike Dylan's severe depression, I'm really not sure what they could have done for Eric. He was a psychopath and a narcissist and unfortunately mental health treatment does not really have anything in the arsenal to deal effectively with those conditions aside from advising those close to the person to run away so they don't get hurt. Psychopathy is largely an accident of genetics, and researchers have found that therapy and treatment just make it worse because it trains the person to better manipulate and lie in order to trick the therapist, which it appears happened with Eric. Psychopaths are very good at charming and pulling the wool over people's eyes--it's part of the disorder, and I can't blame Eric's parents for falling for it. He was going to do something truly horrible eventually and I don't think they could have done anything except postpone it a bit. He was almost an adult, almost out of their house, and this isn't the movie "Minority Report" where we can lock up budding criminals before they've actually committed the act.

I agree. And from all accounts his parents were not bad parents who raised him poorly or something. He was born wrong and there was nothing they could do. As a parent, that has to be devastating to come
To terms with - that your child is just evil.

I haven't read the book and really have no deep knowledge for the people, but I think it would be more empathetic to that parents to say "that your child is broken" rather than "evil". To me evil is a choice made by a healthy, rational mind. "Broken" was just born that way.

Your empathy lies with the killer's parents apparently? Mine is with the victims. Always.

Is your mind too small to realize that people can empathize with both victim and perpertrators' family?
SMH! People who live in such a black and white reality help to make the hellish circumstances we all detest.

[Anonymous]

Many kids out there are screaming for help, right under our own noses. But we'll never know it, until we make the time and space to hear them.

It could be your kid's best friend... or even your own kid.

[Anonymous]

I haven't read the book or seen the interviews, but I find it interesting that Harris is portrayed as the psychopath and Klebold as the follower. That may be true. But as an outside observer, it does seem like most of the "blame" if you will, is attributed to Harris. And it's Harris's family we haven't heard from, whereas we have heard from Klebolds.

Again, I'm not entirely reading anything into this. I would like to hear from the Harris family. They certainly have a right to privacy and don't owe us anything, but the "true story" (if there ever even is such a thing) is certainly incomplete without their perspective.