Whatever happened to Klebod and Harris' parents?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I have a daughter who is 19.
She has depression and anxiety at a deep level.
Refuses to go to psych. We have a talked to the psych and he cannot legally talk to us.
Before she turned 18 we could force her to go to the therapist office, but could not force her to talk. We can't shove meds down her throat.

I believe strongly she is a threat to herself. Her dad does too.

We beg and beg her to get help. Nothing we can do. Most helpless feeling in the world. My life is anxiety and insomnia and endless worry.

I don't think we are bad parents. We have two boys who are excellent students and are mentally healthy. Our daughter was a good student too ( she is taking classes at community college now). We did not do anything differently with any of the kids. I feel strongly that genetically our daughter just has a different makeup.

As a parent of a kid with mental illness I think it's an extraordinarily complex world that someone without a kid with a mental illness would never understand. And as a country we do not have any systems in place to help parents of young adults who they are worried about. Insurance does not cover anything but medicating these kids. Talk therapy is extraordinarily expensive and therapists for young adults are incredibly hard to find with long wait lists. Therapists who tale insurance are almost nonexistent and those wait lists are even longer.

In my opinion this is a major emergency in our country. Just not on any political agenda.

I think that you and your husband are doing the best that any parent could do in a situation like that. You have recognized that your daughter has some mental health issues, you have sought out professional help for her and you are keeping close tabs on her. I'm sorry that she hasn't been more receptive to treatment. As a mom I think that watching your child suffer like that would be horrible. I'm so sorry you're going through this.

I obviously do not know what kind of help the Klebolds tried to get for their son. But I do get the sense that there was some severe denial going on in that home.

[Anonymous]

I just read "Columbine" and if you believe the author, Dylan fired very few shots. It wasn't until the final moments that he fired his gun. He was portrayed as suicidal who saw this as a way out. Eric was portrayed as a psychopath and narcissist who wanted to prove a point...that the rest of the world could never understand because he was so much more intelligent. Both had criminal records, were under psychiatric care and were well known to law enforcement. It was a fascinating read and one where you couldn't lay some blame on the parents, friends and general community. Many many people knew of their deep issues.

[Anonymous]

I'm not sure it's "severe denial" to fail to have contemplated that your child might shoot up a school. Especially in 1999, when it wasn't nearly so common as it is now. Acknowledging that your child is very troubled, sure, but mass murder is quite a few steps beyond that.

My heart breaks for the Klebolds. And I know there has been less sympathy for Eric Harris' parents because they haven't been open with their apologies and grief like the Klebolds, but I almost feel even worse for them because unlike Dylan's severe depression, I'm really not sure what they could have done for Eric. He was a psychopath and a narcissist and unfortunately mental health treatment does not really have anything in the arsenal to deal effectively with those conditions aside from advising those close to the person to run away so they don't get hurt. Psychopathy is largely an accident of genetics, and researchers have found that therapy and treatment just make it worse because it trains the person to better manipulate and lie in order to trick the therapist, which it appears happened with Eric. Psychopaths are very good at charming and pulling the wool over people's eyes--it's part of the disorder, and I can't blame Eric's parents for falling for it. He was going to do something truly horrible eventually and I don't think they could have done anything except postpone it a bit. He was almost an adult, almost out of their house, and this isn't the movie "Minority Report" where we can lock up budding criminals before they've actually committed the act.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm not sure it's "severe denial" to fail to have contemplated that your child might shoot up a school. Especially in 1999, when it wasn't nearly so common as it is now. Acknowledging that your child is very troubled, sure, but mass murder is quite a few steps beyond that.

My heart breaks for the Klebolds. And I know there has been less sympathy for Eric Harris' parents because they haven't been open with their apologies and grief like the Klebolds, but I almost feel even worse for them because unlike Dylan's severe depression, I'm really not sure what they could have done for Eric. He was a psychopath and a narcissist and unfortunately mental health treatment does not really have anything in the arsenal to deal effectively with those conditions aside from advising those close to the person to run away so they don't get hurt. Psychopathy is largely an accident of genetics, and researchers have found that therapy and treatment just make it worse because it trains the person to better manipulate and lie in order to trick the therapist, which it appears happened with Eric. Psychopaths are very good at charming and pulling the wool over people's eyes--it's part of the disorder, and I can't blame Eric's parents for falling for it. He was going to do something truly horrible eventually and I don't think they could have done anything except postpone it a bit. He was almost an adult, almost out of their house, and this isn't the movie "Minority Report" where we can lock up budding criminals before they've actually committed the act.

I agree. And from all accounts his parents were not bad parents who raised him poorly or something. He was born wrong and there was nothing they could do. As a parent, that has to be devastating to come
To terms with - that your child is just evil.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm not sure it's "severe denial" to fail to have contemplated that your child might shoot up a school. Especially in 1999, when it wasn't nearly so common as it is now. Acknowledging that your child is very troubled, sure, but mass murder is quite a few steps beyond that.

My heart breaks for the Klebolds. And I know there has been less sympathy for Eric Harris' parents because they haven't been open with their apologies and grief like the Klebolds, but I almost feel even worse for them because unlike Dylan's severe depression, I'm really not sure what they could have done for Eric. He was a psychopath and a narcissist and unfortunately mental health treatment does not really have anything in the arsenal to deal effectively with those conditions aside from advising those close to the person to run away so they don't get hurt. Psychopathy is largely an accident of genetics, and researchers have found that therapy and treatment just make it worse because it trains the person to better manipulate and lie in order to trick the therapist, which it appears happened with Eric. Psychopaths are very good at charming and pulling the wool over people's eyes--it's part of the disorder, and I can't blame Eric's parents for falling for it. He was going to do something truly horrible eventually and I don't think they could have done anything except postpone it a bit. He was almost an adult, almost out of their house, and this isn't the movie "Minority Report" where we can lock up budding criminals before they've actually committed the act.

But every day Dylan was walking out of that house and going out to spend time with Eric Harris in spite of all the trouble that these two had already gotten into together.

They were hanging out together, driving around together and apparently plotting a massacre together. I know that the parents had no clue just how bad things had gotten and how deeply disturbed their sons were. But I also think that they knew that their kids were up to no good. Maybe they felt helpless to do anything about it.

[Anonymous]

If Dylan's parents had uprooted themselves and moved far away, do you think that Eric Harris would have still done the Columbine mass killing?

NOT blaming anyone for not seeing this coming btw. I do not think anyone saw that coming...

But people are saying that Harris is the one who did this and that Klebold was more or less suicidal and along for the ride. And I think his role was much bigger than that. I also question whether Harris would have done this all by himself.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If Dylan's parents had uprooted themselves and moved far away, do you think that Eric Harris would have still done the Columbine mass killing?

NOT blaming anyone for not seeing this coming btw. I do not think anyone saw that coming...

But people are saying that Harris is the one who did this and that Klebold was more or less suicidal and along for the ride. And I think his role was much bigger than that. I also question whether Harris would have done this all by himself.

Maybe not. But with someone wired like Eric, if it wasn't Columbine, it would have been something else. Maybe in a few months, maybe in a few years. Maybe with Dylan, maybe with someone else, maybe alone. But he was going to end up killing people one way or another. A psychopath with NPD who believes the rest of the world to be crud on his shoe? The only question was when, not if.

As far as stopping Dylan from spending time with Eric, well, they were 18 and almost 18. At some point, you start losing control over your kids' actions and associates as they turn into young adults. If they had been 13 or 14, then I'd put more blame on the parents for not watching more closely, but kids grow up, become more independent, and develop more ways of sneaking around and doing what they want. And what parent would reasonably suspect that when their kids are hanging out with a "bad influence," they're plotting a massacre, rather than something more innocuous like stealing from the liquor cabinet?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If Dylan's parents had uprooted themselves and moved far away, do you think that Eric Harris would have still done the Columbine mass killing?

NOT blaming anyone for not seeing this coming btw. I do not think anyone saw that coming...

But people are saying that Harris is the one who did this and that Klebold was more or less suicidal and along for the ride. And I think his role was much bigger than that. I also question whether Harris would have done this all by himself.

Maybe not. But with someone wired like Eric, if it wasn't Columbine, it would have been something else. Maybe in a few months, maybe in a few years. Maybe with Dylan, maybe with someone else, maybe alone. But he was going to end up killing people one way or another. A psychopath with NPD who believes the rest of the world to be crud on his shoe? The only question was when, not if.

As far as stopping Dylan from spending time with Eric, well, they were 18 and almost 18. At some point, you start losing control over your kids' actions and associates as they turn into young adults. If they had been 13 or 14, then I'd put more blame on the parents for not watching more closely, but kids grow up, become more independent, and develop more ways of sneaking around and doing what they want. And what parent would reasonably suspect that when their kids are hanging out with a "bad influence," they're plotting a massacre, rather than something more innocuous like stealing from the liquor cabinet?

They were still minors living under their parents' roof at the time. They were still kids. It makes me sad to think that there was no way for those parents to enforce rules with those kids and that they pretty much had to give up and let them go and do as they please. Obviously, that didn't work out so well for anyone.

Not sure what, if anything, could have been done differently. I really don't know what I would have done as a parent in that situation. I just can't imagine doing nothing to stop those two kids from hanging out together. It just seems that the writing was on the wall that they were going to get into some kind of trouble together and maybe ruin their lives and wind up in jail. I can certainly see why none of those parents expected something as horrific as Columbine to happen though.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. I think I remember reading that, actually, now that I've just (re?) read it. What I remember is feeling dissatisfied. It doesn't actually say anything except I had no idea. She writes of some vignettes - holding his face in her hands, talking to him about how much he is loved. But can you really really miss 2+ years of depression and suicidal thoughts? (My kids are younger, so I've not faced teenagers). Can you really miss every single warning sign? Can there really be no warning signs?

It's speculated Klebold was the follower, right? And Harris the more dominant personality?

I think everyone, after something senseless happens, wants to know why. And just hearing that people are mentally ill isn't enough. That's not why. There have to be reasons why. Because of there are reasons why, then we can work backwards and figure out how to stop this from happening again. We have to stop this from happening again. We can't accept these things just happen.

Hdn't they been bullied by the "in" crowd? The star athletes, cheerleaders, etc.

This is a contested issue. A friend of the boys said that they were bullied. A reporter who investigated the issue found that they weren't bullied, but that Harris was prone to bullying himself. Harris was a sociopath. Klebold was depressed. Harris had a severe case of megolomania and wanted to prove his superiority to the whole world. He was deeply angry that no one recognized that he was God-like and better than everyone else. Klebold got sucked in to the fantasy.[/quote]

Hint: Look around.

People move to get away from people like this, who fit this description. There are dangerous adults like this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm not sure it's "severe denial" to fail to have contemplated that your child might shoot up a school. Especially in 1999, when it wasn't nearly so common as it is now. Acknowledging that your child is very troubled, sure, but mass murder is quite a few steps beyond that.

My heart breaks for the Klebolds. And I know there has been less sympathy for Eric Harris' parents because they haven't been open with their apologies and grief like the Klebolds, but I almost feel even worse for them because unlike Dylan's severe depression, I'm really not sure what they could have done for Eric. He was a psychopath and a narcissist and unfortunately mental health treatment does not really have anything in the arsenal to deal effectively with those conditions aside from advising those close to the person to run away so they don't get hurt. Psychopathy is largely an accident of genetics, and researchers have found that therapy and treatment just make it worse because it trains the person to better manipulate and lie in order to trick the therapist, which it appears happened with Eric. Psychopaths are very good at charming and pulling the wool over people's eyes--it's part of the disorder, and I can't blame Eric's parents for falling for it. He was going to do something truly horrible eventually and I don't think they could have done anything except postpone it a bit. He was almost an adult, almost out of their house, and this isn't the movie "Minority Report" where we can lock up budding criminals before they've actually committed the act.

+1

Exactly.

Most people are unaware at how dangerous a psychopath can be.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. I think I remember reading that, actually, now that I've just (re?) read it. What I remember is feeling dissatisfied. It doesn't actually say anything except I had no idea. She writes of some vignettes - holding his face in her hands, talking to him about how much he is loved. But can you really really miss 2+ years of depression and suicidal thoughts? (My kids are younger, so I've not faced teenagers). Can you really miss every single warning sign? Can there really be no warning signs?

It's speculated Klebold was the follower, right? And Harris the more dominant personality?

I think everyone, after something senseless happens, wants to know why. And just hearing that people are mentally ill isn't enough. That's not why. There have to be reasons why. Because of there are reasons why, then we can work backwards and figure out how to stop this from happening again. We have to stop this from happening again. We can't accept these things just happen.

Hdn't they been bullied by the "in" crowd? The star athletes, cheerleaders, etc.

This is a contested issue. A friend of the boys said that they were bullied. A reporter who investigated the issue found that they weren't bullied, but that Harris was prone to bullying himself. Harris was a sociopath. Klebold was depressed. Harris had a severe case of megolomania and wanted to prove his superiority to the whole world. He was deeply angry that no one recognized that he was God-like and better than everyone else. Klebold got sucked in to the fantasy.

People who are bullied often grow to bully others, so it is not entirely impossible that the killers were bullied.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don't think the Harris family has ever publicly spoke about it, at all. Does anyone know otherwise? Harris was probably a psychopath. Klebold was the follower, those two together became a time bomb.

It would be interesting to hear from the parents of Eric Harris.

A psychopath often has one or more "followers" - it is not unusual at all.

[Anonymous]

Had Klebold moved away I think Harris would have either carried it or something else equally horrific out. It is possible Columbine specifically happened because Harris's follower was a fellow student and was bullied and so that was a "target" that was agreeable to them. Otherwise, maybe Harris would have found another follower and picked something else. But a psychopath is a psychopath so unless he was locked up long term on some other charges, or somehow killed, I think it would have happened.

As for Klebold - who knows. He was clearly easily influenced. So he just as easily might have gotten involved with someone else doing bad shit. But mass murder for him, absent a psychopathic friend, was probably less likely.

[Anonymous]

Here is an interesting article about the book written by Sue Klebold:

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/28/books/review/a-mothers-reckoning-by-sue-klebold.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur&_r=0

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm not sure it's "severe denial" to fail to have contemplated that your child might shoot up a school. Especially in 1999, when it wasn't nearly so common as it is now. Acknowledging that your child is very troubled, sure, but mass murder is quite a few steps beyond that.

My heart breaks for the Klebolds. And I know there has been less sympathy for Eric Harris' parents because they haven't been open with their apologies and grief like the Klebolds, but I almost feel even worse for them because unlike Dylan's severe depression, I'm really not sure what they could have done for Eric. He was a psychopath and a narcissist and unfortunately mental health treatment does not really have anything in the arsenal to deal effectively with those conditions aside from advising those close to the person to run away so they don't get hurt. Psychopathy is largely an accident of genetics, and researchers have found that therapy and treatment just make it worse because it trains the person to better manipulate and lie in order to trick the therapist, which it appears happened with Eric. Psychopaths are very good at charming and pulling the wool over people's eyes--it's part of the disorder, and I can't blame Eric's parents for falling for it. He was going to do something truly horrible eventually and I don't think they could have done anything except postpone it a bit. He was almost an adult, almost out of their house, and this isn't the movie "Minority Report" where we can lock up budding criminals before they've actually committed the act.

I agree. And from all accounts his parents were not bad parents who raised him poorly or something. He was born wrong and there was nothing they could do. As a parent, that has to be devastating to come
To terms with - that your child is just evil.

I haven't read the book and really have no deep knowledge for the people, but I think it would be more empathetic to that parents to say "that your child is broken" rather than "evil". To me evil is a choice made by a healthy, rational mind. "Broken" was just born that way.