Keep the Poor Students in Poor Schools

[Anonymous]

Right, PP, but I think the average (or median, not sure which they use) would be higher. I remember finding a 2BD for 1075 in PG County several years ago and people telling me what a great deal I was getting. That's PG County, so there shouldn't be as many high dollar places driving up the rent as in DC, right? 900 for a 2BD would be too much for other cities I've lived in though. It seems like schools would have to make cost of living adjustments in any place on the low or high side of the scale or FA would just be completely off.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP,

I think most of the vitriol is aimed at families gaming the system, with high mortgages, fancy cars, vacations and summer camps. Sorry but you can be critical of that but still support FA for folks who truly need it.

Yes, like the family I know that is getting FA now. They are richer than God but some bad business dealings have resulted in some bankruptcy action. Now all 3 kids are getting FA. They live a in multimillion $ house and still have pretty nice vacations and fancy cars. But since FA is figured according to your wage this family looks so poor.So yes, I'm a little peeved that they get FA and I don't. From what I'm able to add up they have 20x the assets that we have. Call it sour grapes if you will but it doesn't seem fair. Just saying.

[Anonymous]

pp, do not worry about a family like that
Most people pay 30K tuition so that the kids get a more expensive peer group

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

FA recipient here. The worst part is having to be around all of the insufferable big law parents. You are a boring lot and your bratty entitled kids really aren't that smart.

Look, I completely agree with you about the boring BigLaw parents whose kids are only moderately bright in many cases. Our school is full of them (and kids of real estate developers. Lots of S class Mercedes, not a one is a mental giant).

But what is rich here is that you wouldn't be in your school without these men. You owe your child's ability to attend, let's say, GDS or NCS, to the equity partners at Covington. Who pull in $1 million a year and give annual gifts of $10 - $50,000 to your school. (I am none of the above and even I can clearly see this common dynamic).

Does that uplift you or bother you, FA parent? Before you answer, think of your in-bound school.

How much of that $50,000 goes to FA and how much goes to bells and whistles. When I looked at private schools for my child, I saw so many things that no child needs. Art studios with multi story windows, and indoor swimming pools, and 4 different playgrounds, and little cottages for kindergarteners, and golf courses for high schoolers. None of those things have anything to do with the quality of education. I have trouble believing that the only reason tuition is so high is because of the FA families.

And then there is the is issue of descretionary budget for the head of school. I'd like to know where that goes!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think a lot of the resentment comes from people who are in between "have" and "have not." That is, people who make healthy incomes but also have high expenses and private school is still a financial strain, even if they have the means. The very rich can write a check for $30k with no problem. The very poor get a hand out. So, like Romney, the very middle class (!) don't care about either group.

Maybe I misunderstood and this is your point, but the ire shouldn't come from "people who are in between "have" and "have not." That is, people who make healthy incomes but also have high expenses and private school is still a financial strain, even if they have the means" - it should be directed at those people. To me, you've exactly described the $250k HHI family who has the expensive house and lives pretty high on the hog, but still applies for and feels entitled to financial aid because their expenses are so high. But those expenses are choices, and why should others chip in for them because they absolutely HAVE to live in a $850K house? I would much, much rather financial aid go to kids whose parents have a HHI of $100k.

We make about $250k HHI, and have positioned ourselves so that we could pay tuition out of pocket. That involves planning ahead, purchasing a much less expensive house that we "could have," and generally prioritizing education above a lot of things. So it really irks me when people blather on about "you can't get a house for under $750k" and how they simply couldn't pay tuition on their salaries. I get that you didn't plan ahead, and I get that your current expenses make it difficult to impossible to afford the full tuition. But those ARE choices, and I don't think your lack of foresight, or prioritizing things other than education, entltle you to FA, especially when it's subsidized by families like mine, who make the same HHI but made choices that allowed us to afford the school. The daughter of the bricklayer? By all means, she should get FA.

I don't think you realize that some of us bought the $850,000 house in a "great" school district with the plans of sending DC's to public school. Then after a few years come to the conclusion that the "Great" public school is not working for your child. Now the market has tanked and to sell said house would result in 100's of thousands of dollars in loss. It does not make sense to sell right now but life goes on and DC is getting older. Private is looking a lot better.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The problem is fa artificially raises the cost of tuition thus pushing out middle class families. I think that is the anger and I understand that.

Do you think the extra $2500 you pay towards FA is the difference between affordable and not affordable? Wake up call, that is highly unlikely. When parents file for FA there is a formula used to calculate what, if any FA a family should receive. The schools usually reserve middle class pots for teachers and staff children who usually receive *gasp* FINANCIAL AID!

Teacher here. I get no FA. I'm not a full-time employee even though I spend many nights, days off and weekends doing various school related activities from volunteering to chaperoning. I even volunteer at events that raise $ for FA. Do I feel this is unfair sometimes? Yes. But I do it anyway because I love the job and I hope one day the FA will trickle down to part-time workers.....but I'm not holding my breath.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:pp, do not worry about a family like that
Most people pay 30K tuition so that the kids get a more expensive peer group

that may be true for some...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
The anger that you often see on this board is that after paying $30,000 + for our own DCs to get an education we are then asked to pay more for your children.


Unless your child scored none wrong on the ERB, pipe down. Your school is only giving FA to bright kids and is only doing it so that their test scores will make the rest of the school look good. No one is being "given" any thing. It is the brain power of these bright kids that earns your school its reputation, maintains its reputation and, later largely establishes the intellectual environment in which your child will be educated. My DC gets a lot of aid and spends most of his class time graciously helping his classmates who " don't understand".

You mistakenly believe that the only bright kids are the financial aid kids. Sorry full freight here and my kid scored pretty damn close to perfect on the ERBs. Don't for a minute fool yourself in thinking that the kids whose parents pay their way are not also pulling their own intellectual weight. <-- Ditto

[Anonymous]

yes. I am paying 27,000 a year and that is what private school is supposed to be PRIVATE Public school is everywhere. If you cannot afford private, then go to public

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP,

I think most of the vitriol is aimed at families gaming the system, with high mortgages, fancy cars, vacations and summer camps. Sorry but you can be critical of that but still support FA for folks who truly need it.

Yes, like the family I know that is getting FA now. They are richer than God but some bad business dealings have resulted in some bankruptcy action. Now all 3 kids are getting FA. They live a in multimillion $ house and still have pretty nice vacations and fancy cars. But since FA is figured according to your wage this family looks so poor.So yes, I'm a little peeved that they get FA and I don't. From what I'm able to add up they have 20x the assets that we have. Call it sour grapes if you will but it doesn't seem fair. Just saying.

I am sorry, but either you are leaving something out or spreading an urban myth. I have filed my PFS for many years asnd am very familiar with the asset and income tabulations used to determine " disposable income". Any property above and beyond one single residence is deemed deemed a disposable asset , as is a second car, as is a 401K, as is equity in your primary residence provided that your debt to income ratio qualifies you for a loan ( they calculate that as well). So, if someone has a vacation house or inherited a home from parents and it is valued at 1 million, THAT is considered 1 Million in cash that can be used to pay tuition. If one has a 401K w/ 120k in it, that is 120K in cash ( less penalty) that can be used to pay tuition. If the blue book value of 2nd car is 20k, that is 20K in cash....you get the idea. Take it form people who are familiar with the process, wealthy people do NOT get a penny of FA and they tend to withdrawl their kids before liquidating their assets from what I have seen since 2008.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Right, PP, but I think the average (or median, not sure which they use) would be higher. I remember finding a 2BD for 1075 in PG County several years ago and people telling me what a great deal I was getting. That's PG County, so there shouldn't be as many high dollar places driving up the rent as in DC, right? 900 for a 2BD would be too much for other cities I've lived in though. It seems like schools would have to make cost of living adjustments in any place on the low or high side of the scale or FA would just be completely off.

Above poster: trust me, the people at SSS KNOW that there estimated living expenses is antiquated. They told me that they have not changed their index since 1972. Individual schools might choose to offer more aid that the folks at SSS say you qualify for as my DC's school did . However, DC was accepted prior to the recession when schools were feeling flush( back when Big 3 tuition was 24K a year) . NOW, is a different story. Now, the schools often give LESS than the SSS qualify estimate and say, "we are directing our aid to existing families at this time". They have to be careful though because , if they only take full pay , academics are at risk.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My husbands mom has a two bedroom apt in DC that is 900 per month. She lives on the border near Pennsylvania ave. and pg county.

Is it in an apartment building that has 4 or more units: rent control
Is it subjected to section 8( gov't supplements the $900 your mom pays by 1,200 to equal $2,100 to the landlord?
Has your Mom lived there since Carter was in the White House?

I know that neighborhood well. It is a mix of older homes ( was an Irish neighborhood 70 years ago) and section 8 apartments. I don't see too many non AA people living there now.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:yes. I am paying 27,000 a year and that is what private school is supposed to be PRIVATE Public school is everywhere. If you cannot afford private, then go to public

Ha ha, that is funny. I bet you look at average SAT scores and college placement when choosing a school though. If your DC's teacher spent all her time on remedial reading you would NOT be happy, right. Who do you think keeps the academic bar high ? Smart kids are given an incentive to enroll in form of FA. Not all lower middle class kids are rocket scientists and not all rich kids are dumb, dull and dim witted, but what you DON"T have being admitted to a private school is a dumb AND poor kid, so don't worry : your largess is saved for the bright kids who are asked to tutor yours each day in class for free and the school is being "generous" to your kind as well by admitting them in the first place. Perhaps your child scored a 99.9% on the WISC and got none wrong on the ERB, but I doubt it. Unless that is true, your DC was "given" a spot as well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
The anger that you often see on this board is that after paying $30,000 + for our own DCs to get an education we are then asked to pay more for your children.


Unless your child scored none wrong on the ERB, pipe down. Your school is only giving FA to bright kids and is only doing it so that their test scores will make the rest of the school look good. No one is being "given" any thing. It is the brain power of these bright kids that earns your school its reputation, maintains its reputation and, later largely establishes the intellectual environment in which your child will be educated. My DC gets a lot of aid and spends most of his class time graciously helping his classmates who " don't understand".

You mistakenly believe that the only bright kids are the financial aid kids. Sorry full freight here and my kid scored pretty damn close to perfect on the ERBs. Don't for a minute fool yourself in thinking that the kids whose parents pay their way are not also pulling their own intellectual weight. <-- Ditto

That is true; I know some very bright kids who have upper middle class parents ( 800K and above income) The private school's problem is that there aren't enough of these kids. Darn, pesky genetics. To paraphrase someone on this forum who loves to quote stats: the 99.9th% is just that. Brains and talent are the only things that money cannot buy and that is just life. To get enough bright kids to maintain their academic rigor "private" schools need to level the playing field a bit with FA. They realized this decades ago when college admissions started getting more competitive. 60 years ago half of STA's senior class went to Harvard or Yale and probably same with Sidwell. They probably did not take the SAT or the ERB or the Otis Lenon or any of it, but as our former fearless leader illustrated, prep schools had their fare share of the dull and the dense and the dim- witted. That is less true today because their reputations can no longer afford that kind of largess. No one is being "given" anything any more at any of these schools. Every one has to be offing something.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes

FA is given for two reasons: 1) to allow the private schools to maintain their non-profit status . 2) to maintain their high academic standards. There is no free lunch being given; it is a straight quid
pro quo.

Great info here.

I'm a tax lawyer, this isn't quite true. A private school doesn't have to give out any scholarships to maintain its nonprofit status. To be a nonprofit, you just can't have owners or shareholders that receive profits or dividends, or have excessive business related or profit generating activities. To be a 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organization where donations (but not tuition) are deductible for donors, private schools are subject to a non-discrimination review by the IRS because so many private schools were created in reaction to desegregation. You just have to have a non-discriminatory policy that is publicly disseminated and show evidence that the school follows the policy. Easy ways to prove the school follows the policy to show enrollment of racial minorities and/or hiring of racial minorities as teachers or administrators. The easiest way to get racial minorities students to enroll, especially in areas where their are not a lot of minorities or where the tuition is very high, is to offer scholarships, but it isn't required.

A school can have 0 minorities as students or staff and still prove non-discrimination and many do, particularly in rural areas. But if you live in an area where the local population is majority black and you don't have any black students and have rejected most black applicants, you are probably going to have issues under an IRS review.

Most private schools offer FA because it is the right thing to do, not because of IRS rules.
<pst scjpp;s