NYTimes: In South Korea, Questions About Cram Schools, Success and Happiness

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Albert Einstein never went to cram school.

And if your kid isn't albert einstein?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The reason for that: it’s a country that has very little resources, a large population, not enough good jobs for everyone.

US is different.

This is true, and a lot of the recent immigrants don't realize this.

In Korea, your life is set if you go to one of the SKY univs and then get a job at one of the chaebols. Here in the US, we have so many paths to financial success.

There are people in the US who either didn't go to college or went to a T50 or below and can get jobs at a FAANG. That would be unheard of in Korea.

I never quite understood how a smart hardworking family like the one in the movie Parasite could be so financially unsuccessful. But now I see the movie was about how success in SK was locked in for some people and unattainable for others.

Yes, it was even worse decades ago, which is why my parents left SK. Back when they left, there was no free public education. My parents had four kids and were poor. They could not afford to send all of us through school. My parents themselves only had an ES/MS education.

It's much harder to cross SES in SK than in the US. The US is still a much better place to live for jobs than SK.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Albert Einstein never went to cram school.

And if your kid isn't albert einstein?

My kid isn’t Einstein, and she never went to cram school, but she still scored 1550+ on the SAT (with an 800 math) and 5s on all her APs.

I think the thing about Americans is that we think our A students will hit this bar regardless and our B students are better off finding another lane, not grinding and grasping for this one particular academic brass ring. I guess Korean society is less flexible, which seems sad to me (but perhaps that’s a very American attitude).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Korea is going to implode. They already have the lowest birth rate in the world. It's a fantastic place to visit and live if you don't have kids. But, the "cram" school in the US and the US education in general is a lot easier than in Korea. That's one of the reasons why people want to send their kids here.

Yes, they are importing some of their way of life here, but in some ways, it's no different than parents who push their kids to excel in sports in hopes for an athletic scholarship such that the kids are stressed (physically, too) and get little sleep. Same coin, different sides.

-Korean American

And before Korean cram schools, there were Japanese cram schools. Same torture. I recall a kid who needed to prepare for an entrance exam to get into the "best" cram school that was going to prepare her for a top private school's entrance exam!!!! CRAZY.

At one point, Japan had the highest rate of teen suicide in the world. My Japanese cousins are all middle aged and none have kids. I think they suffered through the worst of the academic pressure world. Now in Japan there's a lot more advocacy for mental health and work-life balance - which for Japanese just means "don't kill yourself for work or school". Not *actual* work-life balance...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Korea is going to implode. They already have the lowest birth rate in the world. It's a fantastic place to visit and live if you don't have kids. But, the "cram" school in the US and the US education in general is a lot easier than in Korea. That's one of the reasons why people want to send their kids here.

Yes, they are importing some of their way of life here, but in some ways, it's no different than parents who push their kids to excel in sports in hopes for an athletic scholarship such that the kids are stressed (physically, too) and get little sleep. Same coin, different sides.

-Korean American

And before Korean cram schools, there were Japanese cram schools. Same torture. I recall a kid who needed to prepare for an entrance exam to get into the "best" cram school that was going to prepare her for a top private school's entrance exam!!!! CRAZY.

At one point, Japan had the highest rate of teen suicide in the world. My Japanese cousins are all middle aged and none have kids. I think they suffered through the worst of the academic pressure world. Now in Japan there's a lot more advocacy for mental health and work-life balance - which for Japanese just means "don't kill yourself for work or school". Not *actual* work-life balance...

Oh yes, I recall the articles about Japan's issue around this. Same story, different country. Japan's economy was a lot better than SK's at the time.

In Busan, SK, there is a statue at the top of bridge of a woman holding her child with a plaque on it that says something like "don't commit suicide. You'll break your mother's heart", or something like that. My translation isn't very good.

It must be so hard for the parents. They want their kids to be successful but at the same time, don't want their kids to commit suicide. It's a delicate balancing act. I've always said that parenting is like walking a tightrope - lean a too far one way, and you'll end up damaging your kids. But, it's even worse in countries like SK. It's also one of the reasons why they have such a low birth rate. It's too expensive to raise a child with all the cram schools and stuff.

Like I said, SK is going to implode, but the chaebols and politicians who are in the back pockets of the chaebols don't want to change much because the current system works for them in the short term.

They'll have to rely on immigrants for workers in a few decades.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The reason for that: it’s a country that has very little resources, a large population, not enough good jobs for everyone.

US is different.

This is true, and a lot of the recent immigrants don't realize this.

In Korea, your life is set if you go to one of the SKY univs and then get a job at one of the chaebols. Here in the US, we have so many paths to financial success.

There are people in the US who either didn't go to college or went to a T50 or below and can get jobs at a FAANG. That would be unheard of in Korea.

Increasingly difficult nowadays.

Yes the US job market, particularly at the top, is becoming increasingly competitive.

And connections still matter.

Sure but if the nepo persons are not truly usable, they will just get laid off

Yeah sure. Have you had a job?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Korea is going to implode. They already have the lowest birth rate in the world. It's a fantastic place to visit and live if you don't have kids. But, the "cram" school in the US and the US education in general is a lot easier than in Korea. That's one of the reasons why people want to send their kids here.

Yes, they are importing some of their way of life here, but in some ways, it's no different than parents who push their kids to excel in sports in hopes for an athletic scholarship such that the kids are stressed (physically, too) and get little sleep. Same coin, different sides.

-Korean American

It’s really not at all like sports, though. Most people don’t do sports in hopes of an athletic scholarship. Most kids are involved in sports because they love to play the game. Their parents know that it’s good exercise and helps kids to learn about winning and losing, cooperation, teamwork, perseverance. Playing a sport helps kids be healthier, both physically and mentally.

It isn’t remotely similar to the cram school situation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Korea is going to implode. They already have the lowest birth rate in the world. It's a fantastic place to visit and live if you don't have kids. But, the "cram" school in the US and the US education in general is a lot easier than in Korea. That's one of the reasons why people want to send their kids here.

Yes, they are importing some of their way of life here, but in some ways, it's no different than parents who push their kids to excel in sports in hopes for an athletic scholarship such that the kids are stressed (physically, too) and get little sleep. Same coin, different sides.

-Korean American

It’s really not at all like sports, though. Most people don’t do sports in hopes of an athletic scholarship. Most kids are involved in sports because they love to play the game. Their parents know that it’s good exercise and helps kids to learn about winning and losing, cooperation, teamwork, perseverance. Playing a sport helps kids be healthier, both physically and mentally.

It isn’t remotely similar to the cram school situation.

Exactly—without genuine passion and talent, it’s impossible to sustain long-term development in either sports or art. These aren’t fields you can excel in through repetition or memorization alone, the way cramming works.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Korea is going to implode. They already have the lowest birth rate in the world. It's a fantastic place to visit and live if you don't have kids. But, the "cram" school in the US and the US education in general is a lot easier than in Korea. That's one of the reasons why people want to send their kids here.

Yes, they are importing some of their way of life here, but in some ways, it's no different than parents who push their kids to excel in sports in hopes for an athletic scholarship such that the kids are stressed (physically, too) and get little sleep. Same coin, different sides.

-Korean American

It’s really not at all like sports, though. Most people don’t do sports in hopes of an athletic scholarship. Most kids are involved in sports because they love to play the game. Their parents know that it’s good exercise and helps kids to learn about winning and losing, cooperation, teamwork, perseverance. Playing a sport helps kids be healthier, both physically and mentally.

It isn’t remotely similar to the cram school situation.

DP. You must not be from 'round here. I guess you've never heard parents yelling at sports practices and games. Kids specialize in sports earlier and earlier. Families invest a ton of time and money into club/travel sports. Many kids feel the pressure. Hypercompetitive sports parents can be just as bad as cram school parents.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Korea is going to implode. They already have the lowest birth rate in the world. It's a fantastic place to visit and live if you don't have kids. But, the "cram" school in the US and the US education in general is a lot easier than in Korea. That's one of the reasons why people want to send their kids here.

Yes, they are importing some of their way of life here, but in some ways, it's no different than parents who push their kids to excel in sports in hopes for an athletic scholarship such that the kids are stressed (physically, too) and get little sleep. Same coin, different sides.

-Korean American

It’s really not at all like sports, though. Most people don’t do sports in hopes of an athletic scholarship. Most kids are involved in sports because they love to play the game. Their parents know that it’s good exercise and helps kids to learn about winning and losing, cooperation, teamwork, perseverance. Playing a sport helps kids be healthier, both physically and mentally.

It isn’t remotely similar to the cram school situation.

Exactly—without genuine passion and talent, it’s impossible to sustain long-term development in either sports or art. These aren’t fields you can excel in through repetition or memorization alone, the way cramming works.

Watch the documentary "Trophy Kids" and come back to this discussion. I think intense cramming and intense sports are BOTH awful.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Korea is going to implode. They already have the lowest birth rate in the world. It's a fantastic place to visit and live if you don't have kids. But, the "cram" school in the US and the US education in general is a lot easier than in Korea. That's one of the reasons why people want to send their kids here.

Yes, they are importing some of their way of life here, but in some ways, it's no different than parents who push their kids to excel in sports in hopes for an athletic scholarship such that the kids are stressed (physically, too) and get little sleep. Same coin, different sides.

-Korean American

It’s really not at all like sports, though. Most people don’t do sports in hopes of an athletic scholarship. Most kids are involved in sports because they love to play the game. Their parents know that it’s good exercise and helps kids to learn about winning and losing, cooperation, teamwork, perseverance. Playing a sport helps kids be healthier, both physically and mentally.

It isn’t remotely similar to the cram school situation.

Exactly—without genuine passion and talent, it’s impossible to sustain long-term development in either sports or art. These aren’t fields you can excel in through repetition or memorization alone, the way cramming works.

Watch the documentary "Trophy Kids" and come back to this discussion. I think intense cramming and intense sports are BOTH awful.

Yeah, I agree. So don’t do it—and stop pretending it’s okay just for the sake of college admissions. Because what these people will get is not long term success by mental or physical trauma.

[Anonymous]

I’ve heard this more than once—high-achieving “excellent sheep” lamenting the childhood they never had.

One example: a Stanford graduate working at a FAANG company once complained to his manager about how much he hated the math competitions his parents forced him into starting in kindergarten. Today, he sits next to someone the same age from a state university, doing the exact same job for the same pay—and the state-school grad actually performs better.

Why? The Stanford grad spent his entire childhood locked inside studying, trained into tunnel vision after nearly two decades of nonstop grinding. The state-school grad, on the other hand, had a normal childhood—played multiple sports, spent time with different kinds of people, and developed broader perspectives. At work, he consistently comes up with better ideas.

Companies aren’t worksheets. They don’t hand you neatly defined problem sets. They solve messy, multidimensional business problems that demand creativity, judgment, and—yes—diversity of experience. Tunnel vision doesn’t prepare you for that.

Unfortunately, this is something the Stanford grad never had the chance to develop, and now he’s forced to learn it as an adult.

So the real question is: is grinding yourself into an inflexible robot without a reason without any passion actually a good thing?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Korea is going to implode. They already have the lowest birth rate in the world. It's a fantastic place to visit and live if you don't have kids. But, the "cram" school in the US and the US education in general is a lot easier than in Korea. That's one of the reasons why people want to send their kids here.

Yes, they are importing some of their way of life here, but in some ways, it's no different than parents who push their kids to excel in sports in hopes for an athletic scholarship such that the kids are stressed (physically, too) and get little sleep. Same coin, different sides.

-Korean American

It’s really not at all like sports, though. Most people don’t do sports in hopes of an athletic scholarship. Most kids are involved in sports because they love to play the game. Their parents know that it’s good exercise and helps kids to learn about winning and losing, cooperation, teamwork, perseverance. Playing a sport helps kids be healthier, both physically and mentally.

It isn’t remotely similar to the cram school situation.

DP. You must not be from 'round here. I guess you've never heard parents yelling at sports practices and games. Kids specialize in sports earlier and earlier. Families invest a ton of time and money into club/travel sports. Many kids feel the pressure. Hypercompetitive sports parents can be just as bad as cram school parents.

Yes, I am from around here, and I’ve been around some very competitive teams, over multiple kids, so quite a few years. I’ve run into only a very small number of extremely competitive parents over the years. Most parents want their kids to have fun- and if they stop having fun, they want them to move in to something else.

I saw way more super competitive parents when one of my kids was at TJ than I ever saw in the competitive sports my kids did.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't think these math schools we have count as cram schools. My kids do math outside of school but it's not like high pressure or stressful or anything like that. It is just another thing they do like soccer or baseball.

The main reason to do extra math is because they can and the school curriculum is too slow.

Aren't places like that the US version of cram schools?

The math schools here are one day per week with some.work at home the other days in the week. The article describes cram schools as everyday after school.

My kids like being good at math and getting good tests scores. I can see that it makes them confident and that they feel good about themselves.

The math schools here are not some toxic pressure cookers that makes kids miserable.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Korea is going to implode. They already have the lowest birth rate in the world. It's a fantastic place to visit and live if you don't have kids. But, the "cram" school in the US and the US education in general is a lot easier than in Korea. That's one of the reasons why people want to send their kids here.

Yes, they are importing some of their way of life here, but in some ways, it's no different than parents who push their kids to excel in sports in hopes for an athletic scholarship such that the kids are stressed (physically, too) and get little sleep. Same coin, different sides.

-Korean American

It’s really not at all like sports, though. Most people don’t do sports in hopes of an athletic scholarship. Most kids are involved in sports because they love to play the game. Their parents know that it’s good exercise and helps kids to learn about winning and losing, cooperation, teamwork, perseverance. Playing a sport helps kids be healthier, both physically and mentally.

It isn’t remotely similar to the cram school situation.

DP. You must not be from 'round here. I guess you've never heard parents yelling at sports practices and games. Kids specialize in sports earlier and earlier. Families invest a ton of time and money into club/travel sports. Many kids feel the pressure. Hypercompetitive sports parents can be just as bad as cram school parents.

Yes, I am from around here, and I’ve been around some very competitive teams, over multiple kids, so quite a few years. I’ve run into only a very small number of extremely competitive parents over the years. Most parents want their kids to have fun- and if they stop having fun, they want them to move in to something else.

I saw way more super competitive parents when one of my kids was at TJ than I ever saw in the competitive sports my kids did.

I think that is not a fair comparison. You need to compare TJ to an elite training academy for that sport and compare the parents there.