NYTimes: In South Korea, Questions About Cram Schools, Success and Happiness

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The reason for that: it’s a country that has very little resources, a large population, not enough good jobs for everyone.

US is different.

This is true, and a lot of the recent immigrants don't realize this.

In Korea, your life is set if you go to one of the SKY univs and then get a job at one of the chaebols. Here in the US, we have so many paths to financial success.

There are people in the US who either didn't go to college or went to a T50 or below and can get jobs at a FAANG. That would be unheard of in Korea.

Increasingly difficult nowadays.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m genuinely curious—does getting ahead really help?

What does getting ahead really mean?

It means you never walk into any class needing to rely on the classroom instruction. You could get an A on the final day one. More importantly, you never trust the US public school system to teach math or science. You learn it outside the system so that at higher levels you don’t struggle with gaps.

In the Bay Area, it is not uncommon for kids to start taking DE courses in 8th grade and have their GE, and DE major prerequisite courses complete with straight As along with the APs in high school to get the most rigorous check box by the end of junior year.

It also means that kids in public are competing with kids who have a second set of credentials. As it’s low cost to do this, they don’t trigger the pay to privilege box that other programs signal.

The problem with those Bay Area cram schools is that they’re not really teaching the material. They’re helping kids get high test scores by drilling them on old exams they’ve gotten from different schools. That’s basically another version of pay-to-play.

Are Bay Area cram schools really that much worse than DMV area cram schools?

There are literally dozens of cheap DMV area cram schools that leverage free things like Khan and AoPS with great results. I don't think those are what you would call pay to play.

Which cram schools do you mean? I’ve seen Kumon, Russian Math, AoPS, and Mathnasium, but I’m curious and apparently oblivious.

Mathnasium is not a cram school. It doesn't have any homework. That's partly why I picked it. It's center based tutoring with an instructor working with multiple children at a time but on homework from school and assignments individually tailored to their gaps from a Mathnasium curriculum. They share diagnostics and testing results but none of the curriculum material or in-center work is allowed to be removed from the center. It's similar to about half of a typical public school math class. The part after the direct instruction.

Kumon is more of a regimen with takehome work that parents need to enforce. And it's less about ideas and approaches.

From what I understand the other programs you mentioned are for kids who like math and are willing to do more. They are "stretch" oriented vs. remedial.

Then what are the "dozens of cram schools" in the bay area the PP was referring to?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Don't take this the wrong way, but I have one kid who doesn't study and everything comes naturally to, a self learner with innate math ability. He never studies, doesn't need to. My younger has inate verbal/written ability. They are very different but NEITHER study a lot, my son, really never. I don't get all this studying/cramming, really. How is it possible to study for hours and hours and hours and still not understand a concept? Then, if it doesn't come naturally, maybe the European system is best, sort early and avoid the torture for kids it doesn't come naturally to? I'd wait until high school.for late bloomers but this has got to be rough if you struggle constantly.

A combination of non-elite ability and elite standards. If your son needed a 90% in the AMC to have a chance of a good career, he would probably have to study quite a bit. Remember Gaokao and KSAT etc require high performance in multiple subjects so kids like your son would need to study for hours for the foreign language subject and the home language subject and kids like your daughter would need to study for hours for the math portion.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The reason for that: it’s a country that has very little resources, a large population, not enough good jobs for everyone.

US is different.

This is true, and a lot of the recent immigrants don't realize this.

In Korea, your life is set if you go to one of the SKY univs and then get a job at one of the chaebols. Here in the US, we have so many paths to financial success.

There are people in the US who either didn't go to college or went to a T50 or below and can get jobs at a FAANG. That would be unheard of in Korea.

Increasingly difficult nowadays.

Yes the US job market, particularly at the top, is becoming increasingly competitive.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The reason for that: it’s a country that has very little resources, a large population, not enough good jobs for everyone.

US is different.

This is true, and a lot of the recent immigrants don't realize this.

In Korea, your life is set if you go to one of the SKY univs and then get a job at one of the chaebols. Here in the US, we have so many paths to financial success.

There are people in the US who either didn't go to college or went to a T50 or below and can get jobs at a FAANG. That would be unheard of in Korea.

Increasingly difficult nowadays.

Yes the US job market, particularly at the top, is becoming increasingly competitive.

but it's still a whole lot better than in South Korea to work for the handful of chaebols.

[Anonymous]

Albert Einstein never went to cram school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The reason for that: it’s a country that has very little resources, a large population, not enough good jobs for everyone.

US is different.

This is true, and a lot of the recent immigrants don't realize this.

In Korea, your life is set if you go to one of the SKY univs and then get a job at one of the chaebols. Here in the US, we have so many paths to financial success.

There are people in the US who either didn't go to college or went to a T50 or below and can get jobs at a FAANG. That would be unheard of in Korea.

Increasingly difficult nowadays.

No, it’s not. Most aren’t from top schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Albert Einstein never went to cram school.

The top 0.1% of thinkers aren't helped by going to cram school or whatever...but they are also born with an amazing intellect that you can never have if you aren't born with it.

The winner of the Fields medal in 2022 (Nobel prize in Math basically) had a mediocre academic record all through HS:

June Huh is the most prominent Fields Medal winner (2022) who famously did not follow a traditional path and considered himself "notably mediocre" or "flunked" at math during his early education. Unlike most prodigies, he did not start serious mathematics until age 23, pursuing poetry and journalism first.
Key details regarding this unconventional path:
Mediocre Grades: Huh has stated in interviews that his math grades were "notably mediocre" compared to his other subjects during his school years.
Late Start: He did not aim to be a mathematician, only starting serious, intensive study in the subject at age 23.
Path to Success: Despite this, his "least traditional" career path included a Ph.D. from the University of Michigan and a Professorship at Princeton, leading to the 2022 Fields Medal for achievements in algebraic geometry.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The reason for that: it’s a country that has very little resources, a large population, not enough good jobs for everyone.

US is different.

This is true, and a lot of the recent immigrants don't realize this.

In Korea, your life is set if you go to one of the SKY univs and then get a job at one of the chaebols. Here in the US, we have so many paths to financial success.

There are people in the US who either didn't go to college or went to a T50 or below and can get jobs at a FAANG. That would be unheard of in Korea.

Increasingly difficult nowadays.

Yes, but far from impossible.

P.S. If you want to fact-check that, start a new thread asking for recent and specific success stories. I'm guessing you'll get some interesting ones.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Albert Einstein never went to cram school.

The top 0.1% of thinkers aren't helped by going to cram school or whatever...but they are also born with an amazing intellect that you can never have if you aren't born with it.

The winner of the Fields medal in 2022 (Nobel prize in Math basically) had a mediocre academic record all through HS:

June Huh is the most prominent Fields Medal winner (2022) who famously did not follow a traditional path and considered himself "notably mediocre" or "flunked" at math during his early education. Unlike most prodigies, he did not start serious mathematics until age 23, pursuing poetry and journalism first.
Key details regarding this unconventional path:
Mediocre Grades: Huh has stated in interviews that his math grades were "notably mediocre" compared to his other subjects during his school years.
Late Start: He did not aim to be a mathematician, only starting serious, intensive study in the subject at age 23.
Path to Success: Despite this, his "least traditional" career path included a Ph.D. from the University of Michigan and a Professorship at Princeton, leading to the 2022 Fields Medal for achievements in algebraic geometry.

Traditional paths, tests, and academic competitions are poor filters for original thinkers—but that’s difficult for people to accept when they believe success is just grinding and repetition.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The reason for that: it’s a country that has very little resources, a large population, not enough good jobs for everyone.

US is different.

This is true, and a lot of the recent immigrants don't realize this.

In Korea, your life is set if you go to one of the SKY univs and then get a job at one of the chaebols. Here in the US, we have so many paths to financial success.

There are people in the US who either didn't go to college or went to a T50 or below and can get jobs at a FAANG. That would be unheard of in Korea.

Increasingly difficult nowadays.

Yes, but far from impossible.

P.S. If you want to fact-check that, start a new thread asking for recent and specific success stories. I'm guessing you'll get some interesting ones.

I agree with Elon Musk, despite his unpopularity. I’ve seen many new graduates from elite colleges who add little practical value and lack hands-on skills. Those are the ones who struggle. Ultimately, companies care less about pedigree and more about contribution—they aren’t charities.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The reason for that: it’s a country that has very little resources, a large population, not enough good jobs for everyone.

US is different.

This is true, and a lot of the recent immigrants don't realize this.

In Korea, your life is set if you go to one of the SKY univs and then get a job at one of the chaebols. Here in the US, we have so many paths to financial success.

There are people in the US who either didn't go to college or went to a T50 or below and can get jobs at a FAANG. That would be unheard of in Korea.

Increasingly difficult nowadays.

Yes the US job market, particularly at the top, is becoming increasingly competitive.

And connections still matter.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The reason for that: it’s a country that has very little resources, a large population, not enough good jobs for everyone.

US is different.

This is true, and a lot of the recent immigrants don't realize this.

In Korea, your life is set if you go to one of the SKY univs and then get a job at one of the chaebols. Here in the US, we have so many paths to financial success.

There are people in the US who either didn't go to college or went to a T50 or below and can get jobs at a FAANG. That would be unheard of in Korea.

Increasingly difficult nowadays.

Yes the US job market, particularly at the top, is becoming increasingly competitive.

And connections still matter.

Sure but if the nepo persons are not truly usable, they will just get laid off

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don't think these math schools we have count as cram schools. My kids do math outside of school but it's not like high pressure or stressful or anything like that. It is just another thing they do like soccer or baseball.

The main reason to do extra math is because they can and the school curriculum is too slow.

Aren't places like that the US version of cram schools?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The reason for that: it’s a country that has very little resources, a large population, not enough good jobs for everyone.

US is different.

This is true, and a lot of the recent immigrants don't realize this.

In Korea, your life is set if you go to one of the SKY univs and then get a job at one of the chaebols. Here in the US, we have so many paths to financial success.

There are people in the US who either didn't go to college or went to a T50 or below and can get jobs at a FAANG. That would be unheard of in Korea.

I never quite understood how a smart hardworking family like the one in the movie Parasite could be so financially unsuccessful. But now I see the movie was about how success in SK was locked in for some people and unattainable for others.

Not in the bay area,. In the DMV area. They include things like church based schools, sunshine, curie, etc.